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Auch
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:40 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:06 pm 
 

I’m confused who in this thread is making an impassioned argument for caverncore or love metal or whatever being a specific, unique, standalone genre the way that black metal or death metal is. Sure, people have asked about those and then posters in here usually say “it’s not a real genre but it’s generally used to describe bands in X genre that have Y tendencies or patterns” and most people just move on or ask further clarification. Many people who seem to really go to bat for these non-genre Spotify/YouTube tags seem to fall out of using the forums pretty quickly.

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EvergreenSherbert
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:48 pm
Posts: 1271
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:11 pm 
 

Yeah I don't think anybody thinks it's an actual genre.
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yungstirjoey666
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2022 2:00 pm 
 

In those cases, then "microgenre" is the most appropriate terminology.

I guess the other problem with genre differentiations regarding metal is when you compare the situation with other mainstream genres such as pop, which basically includes both Shangri-Las and Britney Spears, both of whom are radically different from each other. Even within metal, a few other subgenres like death or doom metal are pretty versatile. From this, you'd get people debating on tighter and controversial styles such as speed metal, and whether or not they really should be as normalized.

And yeah, you could argue that pop music also has subgenres, but there it's like labeling Cannibal Corpse or Gorgoroth as "heavy metal."

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Kalimata
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:29 am
Posts: 525
Location: France
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 6:17 am 
 

The question still is how (sub)genre names are produced and classified within a musical subculture.

Metal is a strong community and metalheads identify to this belonging. This makes they are very passionate and active in understanding, historicizing or classifying the music of the movement they belong to. Maybe like (to a lesser extent) goths, rastas, rappers and many others...

But I'm sure almost no one claims "I'm a pophead, I belong to the pop music movement". And no pop artist will sing things like "I'll fight for the cause of pop cause it's here to stay". Because it's not a community anymore since the 1960's, but it has become more of a polymorphic way of composing music which consists in creating catchy melodies with big productions, in the aim of reaching the largest audience. That's why, except mainstream medias and musicologists, no community is passionate enough to structure an accurate classification of pop music. Still there are some: pop rock, electro pop...

But in some way it's not a bad thing, because the example of metal shows us that when a community is too active and democratized, the subgenre production can become uncontrollable, unaccurate... and senseless sometimes.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 8:36 am 
 

Kalimata wrote:
But I'm sure almost no one claims "I'm a pophead, I belong to the pop music movement".


https://www.reddit.com/r/popheads/

1.2 million subscribers.

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Kalimata
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:29 am
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Location: France
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:14 am 
 

You love Reddit, don't you?
And you love posting Reddit links, don't you?

However, it doesn't answer the problem. Do those 1.2 million subscribers are a true community like metal?
Do they go to the Popfest to see Paul McCartney, Bruno Mars and Britney Spears live?

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EvergreenSherbert
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:48 pm
Posts: 1271
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:45 am 
 

You know there are music festivals with things other than metal, right? Being a metalhead doesn't make you special. It doesn't make me special. We're just music nerds, just like anyone else who listens to any other kind of music.

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Kalimata
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:29 am
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Location: France
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 4:39 pm 
 

Kalimata wrote:
Metal is a strong community and metalheads identify to this belonging. This makes they are very passionate and active in understanding, historicizing or classifying the music of the movement they belong to. Maybe like (to a lesser extent) goths, rastas, rappers and many others...


This is what I've said three comments before. You answer without reading the thread. And this shows you entirely missed my point. Please read carefully before commenting.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 7:38 pm 
 

Kalimata wrote:
You love Reddit, don't you?
And you love posting Reddit links, don't you?

However, it doesn't answer the problem. Do those 1.2 million subscribers are a true community like metal?
Do they go to the Popfest to see Paul McCartney, Bruno Mars and Britney Spears live?


I've posted two Reddit links in the past week, yes, but I think those actually might have been the first I've ever posted here. I actually have a love/hate relationship with the site. The format is irritating and not conducive to dialogues like this forum is, but there is still a lot of useful information to be found there, so I read occasionally. But the existence of that sub pretty much refutes your assertion. There are all kinds of tours and festivals that go on. Is it a trve kvlt community like metal? Maybe not, but if you're just going to keep changing the goalposts there's really no purpose in going any further in the discussion.

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EvergreenSherbert
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:48 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 11:34 am 
 

Kalimata wrote:
Kalimata wrote:
Metal is a strong community and metalheads identify to this belonging. This makes they are very passionate and active in understanding, historicizing or classifying the music of the movement they belong to. Maybe like (to a lesser extent) goths, rastas, rappers and many others...


This is what I've said three comments before. You answer without reading the thread. And this shows you entirely missed my point. Please read carefully before commenting.

Nah I read it. Your points are just dumb. Stop.
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Kalimata
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 12:04 pm 
 

EvergreenSherbert wrote:
Kalimata wrote:
Kalimata wrote:
Metal is a strong community and metalheads identify to this belonging. This makes they are very passionate and active in understanding, historicizing or classifying the music of the movement they belong to. Maybe like (to a lesser extent) goths, rastas, rappers and many others...


This is what I've said three comments before. You answer without reading the thread. And this shows you entirely missed my point. Please read carefully before commenting.

Nah I read it. Your points are just dumb. Stop.


You have no arguments because you know you are wrong, or maybe you have reading difficulties.

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Kalimata
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:29 am
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Location: France
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 12:24 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Kalimata wrote:
You love Reddit, don't you?
And you love posting Reddit links, don't you?

However, it doesn't answer the problem. Do those 1.2 million subscribers are a true community like metal?
Do they go to the Popfest to see Paul McCartney, Bruno Mars and Britney Spears live?


I've posted two Reddit links in the past week, yes, but I think those actually might have been the first I've ever posted here. I actually have a love/hate relationship with the site. The format is irritating and not conducive to dialogues like this forum is, but there is still a lot of useful information to be found there, so I read occasionally. But the existence of that sub pretty much refutes your assertion. There are all kinds of tours and festivals that go on. Is it a trve kvlt community like metal? Maybe not, but if you're just going to keep changing the goalposts there's really no purpose in going any further in the discussion.


If by "changing the goalpost" you mean "not taking everything for granted", then you're right. I still think you miss my point or we simply don't agree. This is a dialogue, we just exchange point of views and argue, no problem.

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yungstirjoey666
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:47 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 1:13 pm 
 

Does a fusion between power metal and hardcore punk exist, and is there a separate terminology for it the same way other subgenres have it (eg. crossover thrash, grindcore, blackened hardcore, and sludge)? The closest I can think of is melodic metalcore with some power metal influences (A7X, KSE, Trivium), but metalcore since then barely has much hardcore. If such thing does exist, then what would have it been called? Powercore?

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 5:12 pm 
 

Maybe this album?

Spoiler: show

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yungstirjoey666
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 7:50 pm 
 

The elephant trumpet got me. Apparently the band is named after an extinct elephant specium.

I checked the Archives, and they're not in there. I suppose that the rest of the band's discography is more on the hardcore side.

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yungstirjoey666
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 12:40 pm 
 

Anways, I am a bit confused regarding death metal since it is a very versatile genre. Does death metal mean any style of metal with predominantly death growls, or are other factors required, such as blast beats, technicality, and a darker tone? In this case, is melodic death metal still a subgenre of death metal, or has it somewhat become its own thing? Because bands like Aephanemer and CoB have very little in common with Cannibal Corpse or Obituary (though other melodeath bands such as At The Gates and early In Flames are still death metal-y). Also, could some Epica songs technically be called symphonic melodic death metal since there are death growls often utilized?

Also should speed metal be considered a subgenre of traditional heavy metal, with thrash and power metal being derivatives from speed? I overall think differentiating between subgenre (all direct traits kept) and derivative (came from the genre, but became its own thing overtime) when it comes to genre hierarchy can help solve most of our genre problems.


Last edited by yungstirjoey666 on Mon Sep 12, 2022 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 5:01 pm 
 

I'm probably in the minority on this site in that I would consider any style with a sizeable amount of growls to be a death subgenre. But the less there are, the closer to the border of other styles they are. CoB, Aephanemer, and Epica heavily lean into other sounds. It's essentially a Venn diagram. For more people here I think a noticeably non-diatonic, chromatic, borderline atonal riffing style is more indicative of death metal than anything else. Production aesthetic, drumming style and other elements factor in to a certain extent. So much of this is more of a family resemblance comparison though. You can find death metal that is very simple, or that doesn't have any blasts. I'm not sure there's any death metal that isn't dark to some degree.

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Kalimata
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:29 am
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Location: France
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 4:16 pm 
 

yungstirjoey666 wrote:
Does a fusion between power metal and hardcore punk exist, and is there a separate terminology for it the same way other subgenres have it (eg. crossover thrash, grindcore, blackened hardcore, and sludge)? The closest I can think of is melodic metalcore with some power metal influences (A7X, KSE, Trivium), but metalcore since then barely has much hardcore. If such thing does exist, then what would have it been called? Powercore?


Wow, powercore is a so cool name! I think we should accept it.

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Nocturnal_Evil
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:00 am
Posts: 668
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2022 12:32 pm 
 

Kalimata wrote:
Metal is a strong community and metalheads identify to this belonging. This makes they are very passionate and active in understanding, historicizing or classifying the music of the movement they belong to. Maybe like (to a lesser extent) goths, rastas, rappers and many others...


If only this were true. I've met some very "uninterested" fans of metal who don't care to study subgenres/metal's history. I steer clear of these types, as they're usually really fucking boring.

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
I'm probably in the minority on this site in that I would consider any style with a sizeable amount of growls to be a death subgenre. But the less there are, the closer to the border of other styles they are. CoB, Aephanemer, and Epica heavily lean into other sounds. It's essentially a Venn diagram. For more people here I think a noticeably non-diatonic, chromatic, borderline atonal riffing style is more indicative of death metal than anything else. Production aesthetic, drumming style and other elements factor in to a certain extent. So much of this is more of a family resemblance comparison though. You can find death metal that is very simple, or that doesn't have any blasts. I'm not sure there's any death metal that isn't dark to some degree.


Some genres can be both modifiers and genres. For example, symphonic metal. This can refer to pure symphonic metal (Nightwish, Epica, Delain, etc.), or it can refer to symphonic black, symphonic death, and that sort of thing. CoB and Aephanemer are pretty squarely melodeath, I'd say. If you really wanna be fancy, you could say they're symphonic melodic death metal, though I think that would apply more to Aephanemer than CoB.
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Kalimata
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Location: France
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:39 pm 
 

Nocturnal_Evil wrote:
If only this were true. I've met some very "uninterested" fans of metal who don't care to study subgenres/metal's history. I steer clear of these types, as they're usually really fucking boring.


You're right about them but they are a minority. I meant the metal community in a global and historical sense.

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yungstirjoey666
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:09 pm 
 

I said this in a previous post here, but generally those who go all "who cares, it's all metal" are the casual/newbie types who mostly stick with Slipknot or Metallica or Sabaton or something. I'm not gonna go and slap the p-word label on them because that's unprofessional and I'm pretty sure they have better use to spend their time instead of arguing online in metal forums, but it's a whole different story with the more dedicated part of the metal community.

Even then, from my experience, most of the "true" metal community seems to be more accepting on what constitute as their music compared to other music subcultures (especially nowadays). Compare that with "true" goths or "true" emos, who are probably more strict on their rules ("midwest emo is fake emo;" "gothic metal isn't gothic at all"). I'm from neither of those cliques so it's not really my place to say if they are right or wrong, but this is just my general observation. And I'm not denying that there are metalheads who are so selective that they disregard prog or power metal, but when it comes to the dedicated part of a community in general, there's just more room for observation in metal.

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Nocturnal_Evil
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2022 8:26 pm 
 

yungstirjoey666 wrote:
I said this in a previous post here, but generally those who go all "who cares, it's all metal" are the casual/newbie types who mostly stick with Slipknot or Metallica or Sabaton or something...


It's funny because I recently met a person like that who I'd seen walking around with Death and Cynic shirts. Was really blindsided by their reaction to me talking about subgenres. That said, they also claimed Mayhem was thrash and referred to Sepultura as "that Brazilian band".

I've found the majority of cries against "elitism" in metal come from and are directed to a horde of the type of fans we're discussing. Anything that's click bait material, try hard "epic" and/or themed, they love, but just can't seem to keep that flame alive for non contrived as fuck bands. It's tiring.
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yungstirjoey666
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2022 8:43 pm 
 

I guess there's a bit of a difference between arguing online and in real life. And yeah, at this point I've seen more complaining against snobbery than actual snobbery in metal, responding to old Youtube videos that are blatant troll.

But based on what I learned from that person, Brazilian is a new metal genre. Huh, I guess we do learn something new everyday, practically opening our mind to a completely different perspective. I guess to them, nothing really matters.

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Red_Death
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2022 7:43 am 
 

Wasn't sure whether to post here on in the rec subforum.

So, I've been revisiting Rudra's discography, and it struck me the subgenre label they came up with, Vedic metal, just may be a valid subgenre/micro-genre. It obviously sounds like a promotional gimmick, but both the music (not only the non-metal interludes, but also the purely metal riffing) and the imagery/lyrics are quite distinctive, up to an extent that could justify that new genre tag (not necessarily here since war metal's not recognized, and this would pretty much be at the same level of detail as wm).

However, I haven't heard any band doing similar things, and I'm not aware of any other band claiming that label (or the label being used for any other band). I'm curious as to what people think about the potential validity and potential sub-genre formation when it comes to "Vedic metal". I've been meaning to check out regional acts that may sport a similar sound, so any recommendations are welcome too.
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MDL
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2022 9:13 am 
 

Kalimata wrote:
The question still is how (sub)genre names are produced and classified within a musical subculture.

Metal is a strong community and metalheads identify to this belonging. This makes they are very passionate and active in understanding, historicizing or classifying the music of the movement they belong to. Maybe like (to a lesser extent) goths, rastas, rappers and many others...

But I'm sure almost no one claims "I'm a pophead, I belong to the pop music movement". And no pop artist will sing things like "I'll fight for the cause of pop cause it's here to stay". Because it's not a community anymore since the 1960's, but it has become more of a polymorphic way of composing music which consists in creating catchy melodies with big productions, in the aim of reaching the largest audience. That's why, except mainstream medias and musicologists, no community is passionate enough to structure an accurate classification of pop music. Still there are some: pop rock, electro pop...

But in some way it's not a bad thing, because the example of metal shows us that when a community is too active and democratized, the subgenre production can become uncontrollable, unaccurate... and senseless sometimes.



I agree with this and appreciate the way you've worded it, in a way I couldn't put it better. Yes, I do think that metalheads and even rock music fans tend to be more fond of that process of "understanding, historicizing or classifying" the music they like to. I believe that the even presence of this website proves it and how apparently fluent metalheads are in the metal genres, in their most varied forms, having, at the bare minimum, a basic understanding of that the subgenre sounds like, their most important/iconic bands and a bit of their history too.

I don't see such a process when it comes to pop, electronic, dance, R&B or soul music, for example. Not that it is a bad thing particularly, but it seems like some communities who are fond of certain genres tend to be more favorable to assume almost an academic approach to the music they listen to.

Back in the day, I used to make some compilations in video with bands from different types of genres, as a way to encompass all the subgenres of a larger music scene, either it being metal, rock, punk, pop, jazz, dance or electronic music. I've eventually stopped doing that, because of Youtube copyright claims blocking the videos entirely in many countries and eventually, lack of time and patience for producing the videos. But what I could witness is that, for example, jazz or pop music artists, even the more underground, don't appear to care that much about labels or sticking to a specific sound. They wouldn't see too much difference between "normal" pop, progressive pop, sunshine pop, teen pop, dance pop or bubblegum pop and maybe my identification of certain songs as being representative of those were merely occasional and exclusive to one track out of an entire album. Also because, on a sonorous level, they really aren't too much different from each other.
As opposed to that, we can have power metal, thrash metal, metalcore or folk metal, all of them having different scenes and sonorous approaches to that larger genre categorisation (eg: pizza thrash, USPM, europower, etc), with different people identifying and being fond of those certain scenes while not liking the other, even within the same genre spectrum (for example, USPM fans not liking europower or vice-versa).

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Kalimata
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:05 pm 
 

Apart from the fact we're on the same wavelength, your comment is really appreciable. Much more than the ones like "what you say is crap, end of discussion" or those who contradict by posting reddit links as objective truth without contextualisation or arguments. One may not agree with what I say but it's a valid approach, at least reasonable.

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EvergreenSherbert
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:40 pm 
 


Here's a genre question, what the fuck is this? Black metal with a deathcore edge, I don't know what to call it. They must be a new band cause they're not on the archives.
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yungstirjoey666
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2022 3:35 pm 
 

EvergreenSherbert wrote:

Here's a genre question, what the fuck is this? Black metal with a deathcore edge, I don't know what to call it. They must be a new band cause they're not on the archives.



"Blackened deathcore" is the closest I can think of. You can blacken (fuse with black metal) anything at this point.

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Jumala
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:13 am 
 

Why Death Core is not real metal genre here? I know only Lorna Shore and they are more metal than many bands here. IsLorna Shore banned because woke and cancel culture?

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LongHairIsSoFuckingCool
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:34 am 
 

Jumala wrote:
Why Death Core is not real metal genre here? I know only Lorna Shore and they are more metal than many bands here. IsLorna Shore banned because woke and cancel culture?

This is the dumbest question asked in the stupid genre question thread.
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yungstirjoey666
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:15 am 
 

Pretty sure Burzum wouldn’t be in the Archives if that is the reason.

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EvergreenSherbert
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:20 pm 
 

Jumala wrote:
Why Death Core is not real metal genre here? I know only Lorna Shore and they are more metal than many bands here. IsLorna Shore banned because woke and cancel culture?

Deathcore bands are usually not considered metal here unless they have considerable influence from death metal. Cancel culture definitely isn't the issue, there are actual neo-nazis listed on the site (fuck you Varg).
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Slater922
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:25 pm 
 

Jumala wrote:
IsLorna Shore banned because woke and cancel culture?

I've seen some dumb takes on this forum before, but this one takes the cake… :durr: :brick:
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yungstirjoey666
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:01 pm 
 

That stuff aside, I find that metalcore and deathcore are a bit more forgiving when it comes to acceptance in the Archives. I mean, almost 5000 and 2000 entries respectively aren't too bad numbers. Grindcore is even more so on this factor.

Compare that with nu metal, where there are only 125, and every entry in this site has another genre with them.

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Kalimata
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:20 pm 
 

Sure, he worded his statement quite badly, but what he means is not so dumb.

I think he doesn't mean deathcore isn't represented in the Archives in terms of statistics, but more in the opinion of the members in the discussions. In my humble opinion, deathcore riffing is technically metal and doesn't contain much hardcore. But it tends to be rejected by conservative metalheads cause like metalcore, nu metal and their mallcore cousins, it strays from the original spirit of metal and has more of an alternative rock feel.

What he says about deathcore and cancel culture is not senseless. From my understanding, he means that eventhough being (at least partially) metal, a lot of bands are not allowed here and denied by many as metal bands. Yet they are much more legitimate than ambient projects that are listed in the Archives. A question of letter and spirit...

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yungstirjoey666
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2022 2:10 pm 
 

Yeah, those ambient projects don't belong here, unless if there is one fully metal album from them.

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Kalimata
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2022 2:35 pm 
 

Right, isn't it weird that a metal encyclopaedia (whose ideas about metal are quite conservative, which I don't consider necessarily bad) counts ambient projects that have 0% metal and zero metal album as, but doesn't want to include Led Zeppelin which contributed to shape heavy metal and has some metal riffs, or bands like Korn that are partially metal?

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EvergreenSherbert
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 11:31 am 
 

Maybe make a thread in the complaints forum. Then the moderators can explain why those ambient albums are on the archives.
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Kalimata
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:53 pm 
 

I guess those ambients projects, though not being metal at musically, keep with mood and spirit of (black metal) whereas paradoxically, nu metal or metalcore have a good amount of metal in them but keep more with the alternative rock spirit. Which would demonstrate MA's vision of metal focuses more on the spirit than on the letter, though they claim the contrary, that is, metal is defined by the riffing. But I this case how dark ambient could be metal... Anyway I don't criticize, it's just an observation.

Another reason could be that black metal is very well represented here, and MA's founding members have been considering that this kind of ambient cannot be separated from black metal.

It would be interesting to ask in the complaints forum, you're right.

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AJManiac666
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:18 pm
Posts: 125
Location: Costa Rica
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:20 pm 
 

Is USPM difficult to define?

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