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yungstirjoey666
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:56 pm 
 

I have a question regarding the label for "melodic" in metal. I understand the need to label in such for more extreme and abrasive subgenres like thrash, death, and grindcore, but I've also seen this label with genres that are already fairly melodic enough to begin with (eg. Dreamtale and Kamelot are "melodic power metal"). In what sense does "melodic" have any importance here? Because bands like Iron Maiden and Avantasia are very melodic, yet they're not given such label in the Archives.

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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:43 pm 
 

CoperCz wrote:
Is "noise metal" a real genre?


there are a few noise/black metal (Gnaw their Tongues) and noise rock meets sludge metal bands (Pigs Pigs Pigs Pigs Pigs Pigs Pigs)

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LongHairIsSoFuckingCool
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:50 pm 
 

tomcat_ha wrote:
CoperCz wrote:
Is "noise metal" a real genre?


there are a few noise/black metal (Gnaw their Tongues) and noise rock meets sludge metal bands (Pigs Pigs Pigs Pigs Pigs Pigs Pigs)

The first track on Gluey Porch Treatments by Melvins is also noise rock for like, 4 minutes before shifting to sludge.
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Kalimata
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:54 am 
 

yungstirjoey666 wrote:
I have a question regarding the label for "melodic" in metal. I understand the need to label in such for more extreme and abrasive subgenres like thrash, death, and grindcore, but I've also seen this label with genres that are already fairly melodic enough to begin with (eg. Dreamtale and Kamelot are "melodic power metal"). In what sense does "melodic" have any importance here? Because bands like Iron Maiden and Avantasia are very melodic, yet they're not given such label in the Archives.


I'm not fond of descriptor adjectives and think genres are enough to label music. But I can understand that "melodic" (among other descriptors) can be useful when a band's style is more melodic compared to other bands of the same genre. On the contrary, some genres are intrinsically melodic, thus adding "melodic" is redundant or useless (power metal for example, for which "unmelodic" could be more relevant :-D).

In the case of Iron Maiden, it's clear to me that melody is the core element of their music and they're more melodic than the majority of traditional heavy metal bands. Then if you're a genre differentiation maniac and like to use descriptors for more accuracy, it makes no doubt Iron Maiden should be labeled "melodic heavy metal". But Maiden being one the most iconic bands in heavy metal might be the reason why the Archives decided they don't need a descriptor.

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Kalimata
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:56 am 
 

tomcat_ha wrote:
CoperCz wrote:
Is "noise metal" a real genre?


there are a few noise/black metal (Gnaw their Tongues) and noise rock meets sludge metal bands (Pigs Pigs Pigs Pigs Pigs Pigs Pigs)


But this does not legitimate "noise metal" as a real genre.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:53 am 
 

Kalimata wrote:
yungstirjoey666 wrote:
I have a question regarding the label for "melodic" in metal. I understand the need to label in such for more extreme and abrasive subgenres like thrash, death, and grindcore, but I've also seen this label with genres that are already fairly melodic enough to begin with (eg. Dreamtale and Kamelot are "melodic power metal"). In what sense does "melodic" have any importance here? Because bands like Iron Maiden and Avantasia are very melodic, yet they're not given such label in the Archives.


I'm not fond of descriptor adjectives and think genres are enough to label music. But I can understand that "melodic" (among other descriptors) can be useful when a band's style is more melodic compared to other bands of the same genre. On the contrary, some genres are intrinsically melodic, thus adding "melodic" is redundant or useless (power metal for example, for which "unmelodic" could be more relevant :-D).


I find "melodic" and "atmospheric" quite helpful in some subgenres, particularly doom. St. Vitus and Trees of Eternity both play doom metal, but their approaches to it are quite different. Same with say Spectral Voice and Coffins compared to Daylight Dies and October Tide compared to Lethian Dreams and Clouds.

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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:44 pm 
 

Kalimata wrote:
But this does not legitimate "noise metal" as a real genre.


Noise and metal are distant enough from each other that you can only combine both if you basically play a metal genre and add noise to it. You can play black metal riffs and do all sorts of Merzbow like stuff and it won't really interfere with each other.

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LongHairIsSoFuckingCool
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:43 am 
 

So, did groove metal vocalists take their "tough guy" attitude from beatdown hardcore?
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Hexenmacht46290
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:26 pm 
 

They got it from Phil Anselmo, and from his influences. Groove metal with a “southern” image is especially influenced by Pantera. But, the closer you get to radio rock, the more they get into the butt rock thing, where you sing like a bad imitation of Scott Stapp(who was a bad attempt, at trying to sound like Layne Staley), and you are a mad, bad motherfucker(like Anselmo), but also really sad.

It’s more of a “rock and roll” tough guy image, than most of those hardcore bands. Exhorder is a pissed off, edgy thrash vocalist, who’s not really talking about gangs and crews. If Helmet and Prong are groove metal, then it’s not just a “tough guy” thing.
Instrumentally, the rhythms are similar, but the vocals are a little different.
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:01 pm 
 

Hexenmacht46290 wrote:
where you sing like a bad imitation of Scott Stapp(who was a bad attempt, at trying to sound like Layne Staley)


I think it's much more of an attempt to sound like Eddie Vedder.

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yungstirjoey666
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:42 pm 
 

I know that some suggested genres are just dumb gimmicks (eg. "love metal" and "frogcore"), but I just realized that it's also important to remember that genres were created in the first place mostly for marketing purposes. We can argue on whether Viking metal is real or not, but even putting aside the more specific/"true" definition with Bathory and going back to its broad, less serious definition including Amon Amarth, the label itself would still serves some purpose because some people want to listen to Viking-themed metal bands, and the gimmick is already pretty widespread in the scene. It's the same reason for why we have widespread accepted genres such as "emo" or "teen pop."

The real discussion here is whether those are legitimate music styles.

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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2022 5:19 am 
 

LongHairIsSoFuckingCool wrote:
So, did groove metal vocalists take their "tough guy" attitude from beatdown hardcore?


beatdown didn't develop till after groove metal came into being if anything groove metal influenced beatdown in that regard.

That said groove metal does combine various things. It combines the machismo of metal with the machismo of east coast hardcore (both are different) with a less politically charged and more "normal" glamorized sort of American male attitude.

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Kalimata
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2022 3:32 pm 
 

yungstirjoey666 wrote:
I know that some suggested genres are just dumb gimmicks (eg. "love metal" and "frogcore"), but I just realized that it's also important to remember that genres were created in the first place mostly for marketing purposes. We can argue on whether Viking metal is real or not, but even putting aside the more specific/"true" definition with Bathory and going back to its broad, less serious definition including Amon Amarth, the label itself would still serves some purpose because some people want to listen to Viking-themed metal bands, and the gimmick is already pretty widespread in the scene. It's the same reason for why we have widespread accepted genres such as "emo" or "teen pop."

The real discussion here is whether those are legitimate music styles.


At last someone sensible.

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Kalimata
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2022 3:49 pm 
 

LongHairIsSoFuckingCool wrote:
So, did groove metal vocalists take their "tough guy" attitude from beatdown hardcore?


How could groove metal vocalists have any influence from beatdown hardcore since groove metal emerged long before beatdown hardcore?? Please review your chronology.
More likely and from what I know, they took it from hardcore punk and crossover. As for the "tough guy" vocals, I'm pretty sure it was influenced by hardcore and death metal. Though not being groove metal back then, I think this kind of vocals and attitude in metal originated with Sepultura, Schizophrenia-Beneath the Remains-Arise era.

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yungstirjoey666
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:56 pm 
 

Going back to my point on genres being used for marketing, I think it would make sense if regular heavy metal was divided by traditional (stuff like NWOBHM, Judas Priest, worship bands, etc.) and modern (basically anything that incorporated a mix of genres such as trad, thrash, death, power, hard rock, etc.). I even think a lot of the melodic metalcore bands would also qualify in modern heavy metal.

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Kalimata
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 5:15 am 
 

Sure, I do stand for a simplification of the metal subgenres classification that would remove the useless terms that are not legitimate as really distinct musical genres (I don't even talk about idiotic inventions like shitcore and argent metal).

Well, only dividing metal between traditional and modern is a bit too much of a simplication in my opinion! But there's something interesting about it: I think post-metal should be used as an umbrella term for all those bastard subgenres from nu metal and onwards (post/atmospheric sludge, metalcore, deathcore, djent...), cause they (more or less) use metal as the main ingredient, but in the purpose of destructuring its traditional frame. That is, the definition of "post"...

Another problem with genre names coming mostly from the marketing side is that some widespread labels are not appropriate to the music style: groove metal is not particularly groovy and the fact it's a subgenre of thrash is lost, power metal is much less powerful than most metal, dark metal is not darker than black or death metal, nu metal is only partially metal, post metal is too broad term to be a subgenre, metalcore and deathcore have almost no core in it... Metalheads tend to easily accept anything that is thrown to them by the music industry.

There's actually a major problem with genre classification in metal since the mid-90's. Thrash, doom, death, black metal: all were sufficiently distinct and there wasn't too much trouble labeling them. But metal came to diversify to avoid stagnation. Creating funky subgenre names became a plague that led to confusing episodes. For example, "groove metal" was not even used when the supposed subgenre was at his peak. Most metal medias carried on calling it thrash in the beginning, then the term "power metal", among others, begun to spread when it was obvious that Pantera, Sepultura, Machine Head and the likes had shaped something distinc from thrash. But in the same time, some others started to use "power metal" for what had been called "melodic speed metal" and had often been seen as just "traditional heavy metal" until then. At some point in the 2000's, it came to own the label and "groove metal" was found much later for lack of a better term cause the "post-thrash power metal" was left with no name.

From the emergence of nu metal, everything became worse because genres merged more and more, giving a hard time to labeling. Then the rock medias and the rise of the internet contributed to mindless labeling for marketing aims and with no concern or respect for musical coherence.

I'm not meaning there shouldn't be new subgenre names in metal, but they need at least to be musically relevant and coherent.

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LongHairIsSoFuckingCool
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 5:19 am 
 

Post-metal is a synonym for post/atmospheric sludge.
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Kalimata
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 6:43 am 
 

I do get it, but you're misreading me. My point is that post/atmospheric sludge should have remained what it was named, and post-metal should have been used for what I say.
There seems to be a consensus here that post-metal is metal with post-rock elements, but this is a wrong statement. "Post" should be used in the same manner as "proto": the latter when a genre takes shape but hasn't all its classical elements and codes yet, the former when it uses elements from its classical form while destructuring the traditional frame. Just like post-punk, post-rock or post-whatever... Thus calling atmospheric sludge "post-metal" is a complete misnomer! It should be used for any sound that uses heavy metal elements but departing it from its traditional structures.
These are facts, not marketing or random claims.

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Auch
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2022 1:53 am 
 

Why should "post" be used that way when it was initially borrowed from post-rock and post-rock and post-punk use the term differently? Where are your facts to back this up because it honestly does just sound like random claims. Which is clear to me with this statement: "Metalheads tend to easily accept anything that is thrown to them by the music industry." (Because underground metal is such a huge cash cow for the music industry...)

Maybe it's because I am a genre nerd, but I really don't understand the argument that there are too many genres. The point of this thread is showing that while there are clear joke genres, there are also a wide range of distinct genres that can be differentiated and given nuance and as such, different terms are needed and are not just marketing labels (at least not any more). If you've been into metal long enough, you can imagine in your mind exactly what a band that plays one of those "meaningless" genres would sound like. It seems like you're thinking about genre development as purely linear when it's not.

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Kalimata
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:56 am 
 

- I'm not saying that there are too many genres in metal, but that there are too many useless genres that don't correspond to actual music styles.
- I'm not saying genre development have to be linear (though it has to be taken I account), but that genre development have to be coherent, and thought beyond the metal microcosm.
- My point isn't that music industry tries cash in on (underground) metal (though it's a bit true), but that metal medias themselves try to launch useless subgenres just to keep updated with the trends.


Last edited by Kalimata on Sun Aug 28, 2022 2:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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yungstirjoey666
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2022 12:08 pm 
 

While some metal casuals tend to go all “who cares? It’s all metal,” from my experience, the metal community is the most critical on how music genres are defined. I guess it shows how passionate and dedicated metalheads tend to be.

And yeah, I agree that using the post- prefix solely for atmospheric sludge bands takes away from what post- originally meant in music, as well as take away the fact that those bands were rooted in sludge.

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Kalimata
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2022 2:43 am 
 

Exactly.

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EvergreenSherbert
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2022 12:18 am 
 

So tell me about caverncore. Aka cavernous death metal, aka wind tunnel death metal, aka voidgrind (according to Spotify). What's the more common term for this tremolo-driven Incantation-inspired lo-fi death metal?

I ask because this Spotify playlist calls it voidgrind. I love the playlist, but I've never seen the term "voidgrind" other than here. Other than the first song, it's all basically Incantation clones.
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2022 12:39 am 
 

AKA "cave death", "dirty death", Maggot Stomp/20 Buck Spin-core. I'd have to relisten to the specific songs, but some of the bands in that playlist are just various flavors of the old-school death metal revival.

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Kalimata
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2022 8:54 am 
 

EvergreenSherbert wrote:
So tell me about caverncore. Aka cavernous death metal, aka wind tunnel death metal, aka voidgrind (according to Spotify). What's the more common term for this tremolo-driven Incantation-inspired lo-fi death metal?

I ask because this Spotify playlist calls it voidgrind. I love the playlist, but I've never seen the term "voidgrind" other than here. Other than the first song, it's all basically Incantation clones.


Let's call it... death metal?

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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2022 9:48 am 
 

caverncore are just the bands that sound like Incantation with cavernous production. A band like Dead Congregation is not caverncore because they don't have the same kind of cavernous prod. However people sometimes use the term caverncore interchangeably with all death metal that sounds dark and murky and thus include bands that play in the Finnish style or play doomdeath.

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Kalimata
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2022 12:56 pm 
 

Caverncore is nothing and even the name doesn't make sense. This is death metal.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:10 pm 
 

It's just a whole spectrum of different approaches that are a percentage amount of each. Copious reverb, sometimes intentionally making the production a bit more lo-fi, tuning, EQing, mixing and such so that everything is really grimy and mushy. Some of it gets into the ultra-opaque, dissonant death track with Portal, Grave Upheaval and such.

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yungstirjoey666
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:54 pm 
 

Spotify just has a knack of making up micro genre playlists purely based on aesthetics

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Kalimata
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2022 3:27 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
It's just a whole spectrum of different approaches that are a percentage amount of each. Copious reverb, sometimes intentionally making the production a bit more lo-fi, tuning, EQing, mixing and such so that everything is really grimy and mushy. Some of it gets into the ultra-opaque, dissonant death track with Portal, Grave Upheaval and such.


And where is the core in this?


yungstirjoey666 wrote:
Spotify just has a knack of making up micro genre playlists purely based on aesthetics


True, nowadays Spotify launches the trends and metalheads follow thoughtlessly.

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MutantClannfear
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2022 7:18 pm 
 

Kalimata wrote:
And where is the core in this?

"-core" has a history of being used in a tongue-in-cheek way to describe metal microgenres/scenes regardless of whether they actually have -core influence. See "norsecore" which predates caverncore by a decade.
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yungstirjoey666
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2022 7:30 pm 
 

Not just metal. -Core just means anything that is sub or countercultural (eg. cottagecore), kind of how hardcore punk was intended.

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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:07 pm 
 

caverncore is not a genre its just a style, of course everyone calls it death or black/death metal. It is just something that is as specific as for example swedeath.

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Kalimata
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2022 5:45 pm 
 

yungstirjoey666 wrote:
Not just metal. -Core just means anything that is sub or countercultural (eg. cottagecore), kind of how hardcore punk was intended.


In the context of rock music, "-core" does mean "hardcore punk". Cottagecore has nothing to do with it.

MutantClannfear wrote:
"-core" has a history of being used in a tongue-in-cheek way to describe metal microgenres/scenes regardless of whether they actually have -core influence. See "norsecore" which predates caverncore by a decade.


But the problem is some use those "-core" as legitimate terms and not in a tongue-in-cheek way at all.

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
It's just a whole spectrum of different approaches that are a percentage amount of each. Copious reverb, sometimes intentionally making the production a bit more lo-fi, tuning, EQing, mixing and such so that everything is really grimy and mushy. Some of it gets into the ultra-opaque, dissonant death track with Portal, Grave Upheaval and such.


And if a band mixes shitcore and grindvoid, should we accept the use of "shitvoid" because it's even more ultra-opaque? Wouldn't we lose the "core" thing which make it so countercultural? Or would it be confused with some extreme blacknoise acts?


I do understand black or death metal are terms that don't frighten your mainstream neighbour anymore. But using silly terms Spotify creates just to sound edgy at school or at work ("hey guys, I listen to shitvoid, I'm so edgy!")... Sounds like teenage metalheads' immature attempts at hipsterism. Come on guys...

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EvergreenSherbert
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2022 5:50 pm 
 

Kalimata wrote:
True, nowadays Spotify launches the trends and metalheads follow thoughtlessly.

No... I don't think anyone's following anything. There's no trend or movement. Spotify just put a tag in their algorithm, and an auto-generated microgenre playlist was made for it.
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2022 8:50 pm 
 

Kalimata wrote:
yungstirjoey666 wrote:
Not just metal. -Core just means anything that is sub or countercultural (eg. cottagecore), kind of how hardcore punk was intended.


In the context of rock music, "-core" does mean "hardcore punk". Cottagecore has nothing to do with it.


Kalimata wrote:
MutantClannfear wrote:
"-core" has a history of being used in a tongue-in-cheek way to describe metal microgenres/scenes regardless of whether they actually have -core influence. See "norsecore" which predates caverncore by a decade.


But the problem is some use those "-core" as legitimate terms and not in a tongue-in-cheek way at all.


https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=-core

You just have to infer based on context. When I say something like "Maggot Stomp/20 Buck Spin-core", that's going beyond the boundaries of a musical genre and becoming more about the culture surrounding the music scene associated with certain record labels.

Kalimata wrote:
LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
It's just a whole spectrum of different approaches that are a percentage amount of each. Copious reverb, sometimes intentionally making the production a bit more lo-fi, tuning, EQing, mixing and such so that everything is really grimy and mushy. Some of it gets into the ultra-opaque, dissonant death track with Portal, Grave Upheaval and such.


And if a band mixes shitcore and grindvoid, should we accept the use of "shitvoid" because it's even more ultra-opaque? Wouldn't we lose the "core" thing which make it so countercultural? Or would it be confused with some extreme blacknoise acts?


They're just terms that either catch on or don't. "Shitcore", "grindvoid", "shitvoid", and "blacknoise" are either extremely obscure or neologisms you're creating right now. I don't even know what they mean currently without doing research. "Cavernous death metal" and "caverncore" have more real world usage. Just two examples of many:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Metal/comments/4bxvmx/cavernous_death_metal_and_related_bands_a_primer/

https://www.last.fm/tag/caverncore/artists

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Kalimata
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2022 4:19 am 
 

EvergreenSherbert wrote:
No... I don't think anyone's following anything. There's no trend or movement. Spotify just put a tag in their algorithm, and an auto-generated microgenre playlist was made for it.


LithoJazzoSphere wrote:

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=-core

You just have to infer based on context. When I say something like "Maggot Stomp/20 Buck Spin-core", that's going beyond the boundaries of a musical genre and becoming more about the culture surrounding the music scene associated with certain record labels.

They're just terms that either catch on or don't. "Shitcore", "grindvoid", "shitvoid", and "blacknoise" are either extremely obscure or neologisms you're creating right now. I don't even know what they mean currently without doing research. "Cavernous death metal" and "caverncore" have more real world usage. Just two examples of many:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Metal/comments/4bxvmx/cavernous_death_metal_and_related_bands_a_primer/
https://www.last.fm/tag/caverncore/artists


You both confirm it all.
Spotify (among others) creates random tags, people use them as it was a real thing on Reddit, Urban Dictionnary or other sites that have no legitimacy except any random guy can post the information he wants as if it was an official source. Then some come on MA's "Genre question megathread" to ask or claim these tags are real, and quote... Reddit, Urban Dictionnary or other sites that have no legitimacy except any random guy can post the information he wants as if it was an official source... to justify it.
At least, acknowledge that those sites are full of false or unofficial information and can't be used as a proof a term exists!

This [stupid] thread aims at discussing or arguing about metal subgenres legitimacy ("is x genre real?"). But most contributors here come to discuss about random internet tags, confuse them with real genres, and then proved wrong, evade the issue explaining you there are in fact "countercultures" or "terms atogenerated by algorythms". Let's be serious here :lol: :lol: :lol:

True, I created "shitvoid" just like Spotify algorythms or random guys on reddit created "caverncore". If i launch a thread on reddit, my "shitvoid" joke will become an almost official subgenre in one month.

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EvergreenSherbert
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:48 pm
Posts: 1271
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2022 9:03 am 
 

Man. You sure are a wolf among sheep here.
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Kalimata
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:29 am
Posts: 525
Location: France
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2022 10:42 am 
 

I guess!

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yungstirjoey666
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:47 am
Posts: 639
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:14 am 
 

I guess if it has marketing value, then anything could be considered a genre, even those micro aesthetic Spotify gimmicks; they have their own separate playlists for a reason. It's more on whether or not those genres are relevant enough to be normalized as a whole by the metal community, or if they should be recognized by the Metal Archives.

If I have to place an overall hierarchy on how often genres are accepted, here's how I'd list them (no fusions or sub-subgenres unless when necessary):

High (main genres that are most accepted):
-Heavy metal
-Thrash metal
-Death metal
-Power metal
-Black metal
-Doom metal
-Folk metal
-Progressive metal
-Symphonic metal
-Grindcore

Medium-high (also accepted as genres, though they are smaller or more blurred by definition, and some are widely debated on whether they are metal or not):
-Nu metal
-Metalcore
-Groove metal
-Crossover thrash
-Industrial metal
-Sludge metal
-Crust punk
-Stoner metal
-Avant-garde metal

Medium (debated on its legitimacy and/or rejected as "metal"):
-Gothic metal
-Speed metal
-Glam metal
-Viking metal
-Rap metal
-Funk metal
-Alternative metal
-Post metal
-Djent
-Southern metal
-War metal
-Pop metal
-Neoclassical metal
-NWOBHM

Low (gimmicks or mostly disregarded by much of the metal community, but may be used by casuals):
-Trance metal
-Kawaii metal
-Medieval metal
-Pirate metal
-Celtic metal
-Drone metal
-Blues metal
-Pagan metal
-Biker metal
-Latin metal
-NWOAHM
-Any proposed genre that are defined by lyrical content (eg. battle metal, love metal, frogcore, etc.)

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