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Kalimata
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:29 am
Posts: 525
Location: France
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2022 2:39 am 
 

I think you're not clear with your definition of hard rock and metal. Then it depends on which band you're talking about. If you take Rage Against the Machine as an example, their riffs are undoubtedly metal and not hard rock. But other bands sound more hard rock.
This being said, I don't know for other countries, but in France in the early 90's, we used to call "fusion" all this mixes between metal and rap, funk, reaggae or other types of black music. My opinion is that all this fusion subgenres are legitimate since they're the fusion of two genres.
Sure, they had an influence on nu metal which was about to emerge, but they can't be called nu metal, that is a thing on its own and came later.

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yungstirjoey666
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:08 am 
 

I'm coming back to this thread again, because I have a question regarding biker metal. Is it a real genre, or merely a scene? It's kind of like my glam metal problem.

Also I don't really consider neoclassical a "genre," because any subgenre can play western classical-based/Malmsteen style arpeggios and stuff.

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EvergreenSherbert
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Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:48 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2022 12:20 pm 
 

Is atmospheric death metal a thing? If so, gimme some examples.

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Auch
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Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:40 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2022 1:25 pm 
 

https://www.metal-archives.com/search?s ... band_genre

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EvergreenSherbert
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:48 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:32 pm 
 

Auch wrote:
https://www.metal-archives.com/search?searchString=atmospheric+death+metal&type=band_genre

Well I know there are bands labelled "atmospheric death metal", but what I'm wondering is whether that's actually a distinct genre like atmospheric black or sludge, rather than just death metal with atmosphere.

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Kalimata
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Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:29 am
Posts: 525
Location: France
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:26 pm 
 

yungstirjoey666 wrote:
I'm coming back to this thread again, because I have a question regarding biker metal. Is it a real genre, or merely a scene? It's kind of like my glam metal problem.


If think people asking whether biker metal is real or not are not real themselves.

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Kalimata
Metalhead

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Posts: 525
Location: France
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:33 pm 
 

EvergreenSherbert wrote:
Is atmospheric death metal a thing? If so, gimme some examples.


Atmospheric "insert your subgenre" metal being a separate subgenre or just a qualifier is debatable. But if one consider atmospheric black metal a subgenre, then atmospheric death metal should be as well.

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LongHairIsSoFuckingCool
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Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:22 am
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:17 pm 
 

What is "shred"? Is it a metal genre?
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2022 6:46 pm 
 

LongHairIsSoFuckingCool wrote:
What is "shred"? Is it a metal genre?


Basically it's just instrumental neoclassical-inspired metal like on the Shrapnel label in the 80s, usually derived from Yngwie Malmsteen. It tends to get applied as well to various power, prog, and other bands with a heavy focus on guitar pyrotechnics over songwriting. Sometimes showy hard rock and jazz/fusion bands and others might get called it as well.

yungstirjoey666 wrote:
On a side note, what truly constitute as "metalcore?" Metalcore back in the 90s was pretty different compared to what we accept as "metalcore" today. Metalcore then was mostly hardcore punk with some metal elements (eg. Hatebreed, Converge, Earth Crisis), while modern metalcore is mostly some variant of Swedish melodeath copycats with clean choruses (eg. Killswitch Engage, As I Lay Dying, All That Remains). I understand the 90s definition, but I think modern metalcore is really just hard rock/heavy metal. In this case, where does the line draw between crust punk and metalcore for older acts, and the line between modern metal and 21st century metalcore form?


Metalcore is a term that changes in application every few years depending upon what is musically in season. Since it's just a hybrid of heavy metal and hardcore punk, different subgenres of those fuse together depending on the era and the particular band. The very first metalcore was what we now call crossover thrash, with 80s bands like D.R.I. and S.O.D. The primary branch of metalcore and most accurate to the spirit of it started in the late 80s and solidified in the 90s, with bands like Converge, Botch, Integrity and the like. Starting in the 90s and then exploding in the 00s was melodic metalcore, which was heavily influenced by the Gothenburg melodic death metal bands, though the bands themselves sometimes seemed to hide this, and many of their fans seemed totally oblivious to the obvious influence.

But that style of metalcore hasn't been as popular in a long time, and I wouldn't call it the modern version of it anymore. Metalcore has splintered into various other factions in the past decade and a half, but the more recent ones I've heard take more influence from nu-metal, industrial metal, alternative metal, deathcore, djent, technical death metal, and other genres.

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Kalimata
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Location: France
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 8:02 am 
 

Metalcore has been encompassing so many things from the 1980's to nowadays that it doesn't make any sense. This term should be thrown to the garbage of music history and forgotten.

Quote:
The very first metalcore was what we now call crossover thrash, with 80s bands like D.R.I. and S.O.D.


No, "crossover thrash" was the original term used back then, and when "metalcore" has started to be used much later, people have tended to apply it to many kinds metal/hardcore crossovers... which make things even more confusing...
But I totally agree with your statement. Since the 2000's, so-called "metalcore" bands do not sound like a mix metal and hardcore punk, but like a continuation of nu metal.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 7:14 pm 
 

Kalimata wrote:

Quote:
The very first metalcore was what we now call crossover thrash, with 80s bands like D.R.I. and S.O.D.


No, "crossover thrash" was the original term used back then



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Footless
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Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:59 am
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 1:27 pm 
 

I have a genuine question. What is the difference between blackgaze and shoegaze?

I hear them both used interchangeably to describe projects that I would usually just lazily label as ambient black metal. What's the deal? Is there an inherent difference between the two, and if so, what sets them apart from atmospheric/ambient black metal?
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hakarl
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:19 pm 
 

Ugh, people who have no idea what shoegaze is go around calling various metal bands it. Shoegaze is a rock genre that became moderately popular in the late 80s and early 90s in UK, and it has nothing to do with black metal as such. My Bloody Valentine is a good example of the original genre. You can hear influence from it in certain kinds of post-black metal, which has resulted in the label of blackgaze (black metal, shoegaze).
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EvergreenSherbert
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Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:48 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:01 am 
 

hakarl wrote:
Ugh, people who have no idea what shoegaze is go around calling various metal bands it. Shoegaze is a rock genre that became moderately popular in the late 80s and early 90s in UK, and it has nothing to do with black metal as such. My Bloody Valentine is a good example of the original genre. You can hear influence from it in certain kinds of post-black metal, which has resulted in the label of blackgaze (black metal, shoegaze).

Was it mostly just an 80's/90's thing, or are there good shoegaze groups today?

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Kalimata
Metalhead

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Location: France
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 9:38 am 
 

Footless wrote:
I have a genuine question. What is the difference between blackgaze and shoegaze?

I hear them both used interchangeably to describe projects that I would usually just lazily label as ambient black metal. What's the deal? Is there an inherent difference between the two, and if so, what sets them apart from atmospheric/ambient black metal?


Shoegaze is not a metal genre. It is born in the 80's and could be described as a subgenre of alternative/noise rock that uses guitar effects and distortion to create a wall of sound, but in a more atmospheric manner.
Blackgaze is one these new fabricated genre and sounds very hipsterish. As Hakarl said, it's applied to some post-black metal bands said to use shoegaze's techniques. But I'm not interested enough to be able to judge if it deserves to be something real or it's just hipsterish wanking.

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Kalimata
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:29 am
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Location: France
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:48 am 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Kalimata wrote:

Quote:
The very first metalcore was what we now call crossover thrash, with 80s bands like D.R.I. and S.O.D.


No, "crossover thrash" was the original term used back then




One good point for you but it seems "metalcore" was marginally used in the 80's while "crossover" was widespread.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 12:26 pm 
 

I just remember reading discussions about metalcore back in the early 00s as the melodic metalcore scene was taking off, and the old thrash guys used to talk about this and how the terminology was confusing. Both terms were used at the time, but "crossover" took over in the 90s as "metalcore" took on other associations.

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Kalimata
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Posts: 525
Location: France
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:22 pm 
 

Ok, thanks for the information. The recycling of the term "metalcore" is confusing indeed. But it's not the only case: music medias love to recycle genre's denomination in order to create new trends without trying to be musicologically consistent. This is source of many confusion.

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Nocturnal_Evil
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:00 am
Posts: 668
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:10 am 
 

Could someone give me a quick definition of "mince-core"? More specifically, how does it differ from regular grindcore or deathgrind?
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Kalimata
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 2:12 pm 
 

I'd say with mincecore, you get slightly bigger chunks compared to grindcore. So it may be closer to chopcore?

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Kommanderhooyah
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:56 pm
Posts: 127
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:57 pm 
 

Post-black, post-doom, and even post-thrash are all genre descriptors I have heard, but what about post-death metal? Is it a thing? If so, what exactly would it be? Would it be bands like Wills Dissolve which lean towards an atmospheric death-doom sound? Would it be the tech/prog bands like Fallujah which ephmasize a dreamy atmosphere? Caverncore? Bands like Ulcerate which have a bit of everything mentioned previously? Would it be something else? Could it apply to multiple different things? I am curious since there are no bands on the website listed as such (as opposed to death/post-metal) but there seems to be online discourse on the subject going back over a decade.
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Auch
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Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:40 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2022 10:34 pm 
 

Kalimata wrote:
I'd say with mincecore, you get slightly bigger chunks compared to grindcore. So it may be closer to chopcore?


Weird source, but here's a good article describing it and giving examples: https://aminoapps.com/c/metal/page/blog ... NN00wBGYe8

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Kalimata
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Location: France
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 3:25 pm 
 

All those shitcore sub-sub-subgenres have no real distinguishable musical differences to be legitimate. Whatever any article claims, when I use my ears, I hear nothing that differentiate them enough to deserve to be different subgenres. Or at this point, each song of each artist in the history of music is its own subgenre.

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Lythronax
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Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:54 pm
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 12:35 am 
 

What do people consider the earliest releases of non-oldschool death metal?

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DanielG06
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Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:11 pm
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Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 11:26 am 
 

Lythronax wrote:
What do people consider the earliest releases of non-oldschool death metal?


I guess the most universally considered example would be Suffocation's Human Waste and Effigy of The Forgotten, both released in 1991 Those records started BDM, technical DM, slam, pretty much any subgenre of death metal apart from the OSDM bands of the 80's. But there were some other very early releases than could be considered part of the same style, like Internal Bleeding's first few demos in 1992, Cryptopsy's Ungentle Exhumation from 1993 and Pyrexia's Sermon of Mockery in 1994.
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 3:37 pm 
 

You'd have to use a really narrow definition to say that Suffocation isn't old-school death metal. Same thing with someone like Atheist, even though their style doesn't fit in the original iconic Floridian death scene. It would seem to me it would have to be something after the initial decline of DM in the mid-90s. Cryptopsy's Blasphemy Made Flesh perhaps, it was monumental in shaping the next waves of tech and brutal death.

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DanielG06
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2022 4:09 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
You'd have to use a really narrow definition to say that Suffocation isn't old-school death metal. Same thing with someone like Atheist, even though their style doesn't fit in the original iconic Floridian death scene. It would seem to me it would have to be something after the initial decline of DM in the mid-90s. Cryptopsy's Blasphemy Made Flesh perhaps, it was monumental in shaping the next waves of tech and brutal death.


Whilst Suffocation definitely do carry a lot of the aspects from the OSDM bands, I feel like their style was way too different, such as the guttural vocals, the really fast tremolo picking that no one really used at the time except for maybe Deicide, who even then revolved mainly around riffs, as well as the slams.
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2022 5:33 pm 
 

Cannibal Corpse had the gutturals too. Possessed and some of the Swedish death bands had tremolo picking as well, probably others.

I mean, every band has their own traits, and Suffocation certainly their share which would lead into the next era, with the origin of the brutal and slam bands. You could probably argue that Death's Human is part of a different scene too because it's more precise and technical than their early albums. Demilich had a quite unique sound that wouldn't really catch on until later as well. But I would still consider the late 80s/early 90s material all "old-school" though personally.

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Kalimata
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Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:29 am
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Location: France
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 5:15 am 
 

Lythronax wrote:
What do people consider the earliest releases of non-oldschool death metal?


It's a very difficult question to answer but in my opinion, low guttural vocals, brutality and technicity aren't sufficient criteria to divide old-school and "modern" death metal. I think the production should be taken in account because a lot of modern death metal records would sound old-school with a different production.

It's also very subjective. If you discovered death metal with Seven Churches and Bestial Devastation in 1985, then Leprosy could be modern death metal to you.

For me who bought my first death metal record in 1993 (when there was no concept of "old-school vs. new school"), the first time I listened to something that made me think "it's becoming something different from the rotten death metal sound I've known" is Cannibal Corpse's Vile". This was different in terms of production and brutality.

I'd say circa 1996-1997 was the turn when more and more bands were changing their sound for something more modern, which made me lose a bit my interest for death metal and definitely be into black metal, death-doom and the likes.

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nahemot
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:29 pm
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Location: Spain
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:08 pm 
 

Where i had to apply to change genre of a band?

XIII band is not gothic/doom metal....not even metal at all, hard rock at best :O

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Nocturnal_Evil
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Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:00 am
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 2:22 pm 
 

Kommanderhooyah wrote:
Post-black, post-doom, and even post-thrash are all genre descriptors I have heard, but what about post-death metal? Is it a thing? If so, what exactly would it be? Would it be bands like Wills Dissolve which lean towards an atmospheric death-doom sound? Would it be the tech/prog bands like Fallujah which ephmasize a dreamy atmosphere? Caverncore? Bands like Ulcerate which have a bit of everything mentioned previously? Would it be something else? Could it apply to multiple different things? I am curious since there are no bands on the website listed as such (as opposed to death/post-metal) but there seems to be online discourse on the subject going back over a decade.


Just when I think I have a good handle on the subgenres, I'm reminded there's this whole world of "post-". I'm gonna second these questions. Really interested to see if anyone has some good answers.
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 3:53 pm 
 

I've wondered that myself, why post-rock/metal and shoegaze seem to combine with black metal, but rarely with death metal. I know we've had brief discussions on other threads about it, but there seems to be no definitive answer. Part of it is that black metal riffs with droning arpeggiations and tremolo picking have more in common with post-rock guitar to begin with. Then you throw reverb, modulation effects, blast beats, and shrieked vocals on top of that. There just isn't any kind of post-death scene as far as I can tell, just individual bands that hint at it. Katatonia had some shoegaze riffs with death vocals on Brave Murder Day, but it's just not something that's taken off on a large scale.

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Kalimata
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 5:01 am 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
I know we've had brief discussions on other threads about it, but there seems to be no definitive answer. Part of it is that black metal riffs with droning arpeggiations and tremolo picking have more in common with post-rock guitar to begin with. Then you throw reverb, modulation effects, blast beats, and shrieked vocals on top of that.


It sounds almost like a definitive explanation. The droning sound of black metal resembles more the shoegaze and post-rock sound so that they can mix very well while the chugging sound of death metal makes it more difficult. Post-death metal is not an impossible thing though.

What makes thing more difficult dealing with those genres speculations is that we're trying to build a coherent and scientific musicology out of terms that are randomly created by medias with few historical and musicological considerations...


Last edited by Kalimata on Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 3:22 pm 
 

I think if you put together some of the elements of Sulphur Aeon and The Great Old Ones you could approximate it. They're kind of similar bands, but TGOO has more of the post-influenced lead playing, whereas SA has chunkier rhythm guitars and deeper growls.

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Muhammadabbadabba
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:41 pm 
 

Exactly what is Beatdown Hardcore supposed to be? I get the vibe that it's defined by heavy downtempo riffs with a healthy amount of breakdowns, but what distinguishes it from Metalcore from the 1990s? What would be an example of a pure Beatdown band with no Metalcore influences? Can Beatdown ever be uptempo or is it simply against the genre's conventions?
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EvergreenSherbert
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 2:09 pm 
 

Muhammadabbadabba wrote:
Exactly what is Beatdown Hardcore supposed to be? I get the vibe that it's defined by heavy downtempo riffs with a healthy amount of breakdowns, but what distinguishes it from Metalcore from the 1990s? What would be an example of a pure Beatdown band with no Metalcore influences? Can Beatdown ever be uptempo or is it simply against the genre's conventions?

The modern definitions of hardcore and metalcore are already mixed and confusing. To my understanding, "beatdown hardcore" goes by the modern definition of hardcore, and refers to bands that are basically groove metal. Like Kublai Khan.
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Kalimata
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 7:29 am 
 

I totally agree. As said in other discussions, what is called hardcore and metalcore today is mostly metal and musically contain very few to 0% original hardcore. The so-called "beatdown hardcore" I've heard until now sound like (so-called) groove metal with more hardcore attitude.
Music medias keep creating confusing terms cause they're not competent at it. They just aim at launching trends where another new subgenre isn't legitimate or needed.

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LongHairIsSoFuckingCool
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 9:30 am 
 

What's Southern Rock/Metal?
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Kalimata
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:15 pm 
 

Geographically speaking, it should be the opposite of Northern black metal? :scratch:

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DanielG06
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:21 pm 
 

LongHairIsSoFuckingCool wrote:
What's Southern Rock/Metal?


Southern rock is essentially country music with overdriven guitars, and southern metal is country music with distorted guitars :eek:

To give a more serious answer though, I'd say that the "southern" part is mainly incorporated in the western-sounding riffs/melodies or have accentuated vocals (Phil Anselmo and Ronnie Van Zant would probably be the most obvious examples) and even using the blues scale because it has that Southern twinge.
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Lee Harrison wrote:
Evolution is call evolution I doubt that Oystein Aarseth wasn’t stab at death he was thinking the same bullshit of ‘90…

The sound of perseverance didn’t even came out under the name of Death….

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