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tomcat_ha
Minister of Boiling Water

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
Posts: 4766
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:07 pm 
 

I often see chaotic hardcore being used to describe bands that often have a basis in 80s hardcore style but with more modern extreme influences, blast beats without being thrash/fastcore or powerviolence. Has some overlap with the dark hardcore descriptor and mathcore. Kind of like a hardcore band with the shifts like in early cryptopsy.
emo violence is basically skramz aka original scream mixed with powerviolence. Basically almost all skramz with blastbeats is emo violence.

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tentacleterror
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:28 pm
Posts: 183
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:16 am 
 

Emoviolence :-D
Emos can't be violent... (only self harm)

If anyone wants to check out a bunch of Emoviolence bands should check out these 3 compilations.
Emo Armageddon 7"
Emo Annihilation 6"
Emo Apocalypse 12"

Mostly European bands, some of the big names such as: Louise Cyphre, The Apoplexy Twist Orchestra, La Quite and many more.

But it is what Tomcat said: skramz with blastbeats more or less.
Not sure if there are any newer bands that play emoviolence. I don't really bother with emos...

And old screamo has nothing to do with alternative rock like that Four Degree (that one was bad)
It is EMO (hardcore) with screams. See the old bands: Anomie and Fingerprint (both from France, early 90's)
Then compare to Dag Nasty, Rites of Spring or Moss Icon etc. (old emo)

The first Fingerprint EP is a real good one!

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IamDBR
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:58 am
Posts: 1448
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 10:09 am 
 

The original emo was legit stuff man too bad it has been taken over by suicidal scumbags now. It is basically a curse word now ffs. Most extreme bands these days utilize false chords & gutturals, those guys were legit screaming their fucking heads off. Damaging their voices permanently in the process, that's pretty hardcore imo.

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IamDBR
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:58 am
Posts: 1448
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 1:38 pm 
 

Hey guys I've got another question:

I keep seeing USPM, how is it different from PM from say, Europe? I mean I get the US/Cascadian BM connnection with the whole atmospheric/modern/post-black thing compared with European lo-fi 'trve' BM. However, as PM is not my forte I don't really understand the need to make a distinction in this case.

Edit: Nevermind, I got lots of comprehensive answers on the heavy/power/speed metal rec thread.


Last edited by IamDBR on Sat Oct 08, 2016 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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tomcat_ha
Minister of Boiling Water

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
Posts: 4766
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 2:37 pm 
 

there is some good skramz/emo violence coming out these days out of germany especially. Bands like Henry Fonda, lawine, afterlife kids, loma prieta

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Hykez
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 4:55 pm
Posts: 17
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:46 pm 
 

I guess "emo violence" is just another name for screamo, and when I say screamo is the "real screamo" (or skramz), not the newer post-hardcore/metalcore bands.

Older screamo is basically rough, heavy, with intense screaming (no death growls, that's modern post-hardcore and metalcore stuff), with a feet stuck on extreme punk and the other on original emo (or emotional hardcore as said). Screamo also has this strange poetic thing with bands like Saetia and Orchid.

Emotional hardcore I guess is what people would call the original emo bands. The genre would only be stabilished in the 90's with the midwestern scene with the most seminal acts like Split Lip, Braid and Cap'n Jazz, starting to incorporate more indie/math rock into the mix and becoming less and less hardcore. Original emotional hardcore include Embrace, Endpoint and Rites of Spring.

If any of you want to venture in the realms of emo, here's an album chart/guide made by /mu/.

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IamDBR
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:58 am
Posts: 1448
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 6:02 pm 
 

Thanks man!

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laxskinn
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:12 pm
Posts: 140
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2016 1:43 pm 
 

IamDBR wrote:
'War' metal vs blackened death metal vs black/death metal (again, any difference or just different labeling for a same entity?)

Also another thing that intrigues me is the death/black, black/death or power/thrash, thrash/power sort of labeling. What does this order signify? Which genre is more prominent in such a case, the first or the second one?


I assume that the reason Blackened death metal exist as a term, while all the other ones are written with a slash, is because "black" is the only genre name which is an adjective. If it hadn't been, people would just use black/death metal instead. It creates a situation were bands firmly within one genre but with a bit of black metal influence can get a special blackened genre, while influences from other genres can't be shown in the same way. They would have to be written with a slash, wich would indicate that the genres are more or less equal parts.

As an example Powered thrash metal or Deathed (dead?) folk metal just sounds retarded, as Power and Death are nouns. The result is that you can have a more nuanced genre if you are influenced by black metal than if you are influenced by other genres.

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IamDBR
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:58 am
Posts: 1448
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2016 2:20 pm 
 

laxskinn wrote:
IamDBR wrote:
As an example Powered thrash metal or Deathed (dead?) folk metal just sounds retarded, as Power and Death are nouns. The result is that you can have a more nuanced genre if you are influenced by black metal than if you are influenced by other genres.


'Blackened' just sits well as an added descriptor. We need to be more careful when naming these genres, I guess. Powerful thrash metal & deathly folk metal just sound...eh :lol:

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Nyaricus
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:52 pm
Posts: 1294
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2016 7:46 pm 
 

laxskinn wrote:
I assume that the reason Blackened death metal exist as a term, while all the other ones are written with a slash, is because "black" is the only genre name which is an adjective. If it hadn't been, people would just use black/death metal instead...

Well, one could use the adjective 'deathly' in instances of bands with distinct death metal influences yet not primarily death metal in sound.

I think death metal has simply been more on the radar for most people over the years, even with black metal coming about in the early 80s whereas death metal established more towards the later half of the decade. So since black metal has been more obscure, you have far more known death metal bands in general, and then you get far more death metal bands that dabble in black metal (blackened death metal bands) than black metal bands who dabble in death metal that people know about. Couple that with the attitude found in many Second Wave Norwegian bands where they forsook death metal roots for black metal, Euronymous apparently having a lot to do with this, influencing bands such as Emperor, Darkthrone, Immortal to move from death metal to black metal–but rarely back again. As opposed to the beginnings in the genre with First Wave bands Vulcano, Hellhammer/Celtic Frost, Sarcófago blurring the extreme metal genre lines.
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S9NE
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:58 am
Posts: 145
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:42 am 
 

The newly-added band Dymna Lotva is categorized as Post-Doom Metal, but the only other bands to come close to that are Third Island and Bullet Course (both Post/Doom Metal). So my question is: Can Post-Doom Metal really be considered as its own genre or would it just be better to call Dymna Lotva Post/Doom Metal?

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IamDBR
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:58 am
Posts: 1448
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:49 am 
 

S9NE wrote:
The newly-added band Dymna Lotva is categorized as Post-Doom Metal, but the only other bands to come close to that are Third Island and Bullet Course (both Post/Doom Metal). So my question is: Can Post-Doom Metal really be considered as its own genre or would it just be better to call Dymna Lotva Post/Doom Metal?

Here is another band that labels themselves post doom metal if you're interested.

The Von Deer Skulls (France) | https://thevondeerskulls.bandcamp.com/

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Azmodes
Ultranaut

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
Posts: 9707
Location: Gradec, Austria
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:32 am 
 

There, the mystery has been solved.
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tomcat_ha
Minister of Boiling Water

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
Posts: 4766
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:48 pm 
 

post-metal does not exist

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BrutalizerUtilizerOfTheShadows
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:59 am
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Location: In the Cold Winds of Nowhere
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 5:58 pm 
 

tomcat_ha wrote:
post-metal does not exist


Oh really?
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tomcat_ha
Minister of Boiling Water

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
Posts: 4766
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 8:56 am 
 

its either post sludge or post-black in 99% of cases and even then in a few cases its not even post rock influenced metal like with the blackgaze bands.

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raumr
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:11 pm
Posts: 1006
Location: Norway
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:35 pm 
 

This might not be 100% appropriate for this sticky, but I don't think it warrants its own thread either, so...

Is the following riff considered thrash metal? It's from 'Summer of the Diabolical Holocaust' by Darkthrone. It begins around 00:50. It's primitive as fuck, even by early Bathory standards.
https://youtu.be/6szVj15KBUQ?t=50s

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Zodijackyl
Has psudo-intelligence

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
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Location: Longmont Potion Castle
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:01 pm 
 

Genres are broad generalizations, not such specific things. That kinda riff sounds like it belongs on the same album as this one, though. Cold and primitive, it's right at home.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-B3k2-7ahI
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IamDBR
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:58 am
Posts: 1448
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 10:00 am 
 

I have a weird one.
When does death metal become deathgrind? Isn't most tech death blisteringly fast as it is? I mean bands like Cryptopsy, Brain Drill, Origin etc. are fast & chaotic as fuck but aren't normally associated with the grindcore tag. Is it just a matter of splitting hairs or is there something I'm missing?

Also, are 'neocrust' & 'blackened crust' the same thing?

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tomcat_ha
Minister of Boiling Water

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
Posts: 4766
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:40 pm 
 

death grind is just death metal with some amount of grindcore elements often reflected in having longer songs than pure grindcore. The riffs tend to be a bit more chunky. Just think of the difference between Symphonies vs FETO.

Neocrust is a catch all term for crust punk with non stereotypical crust punk elements from the last 15-20 years. So this includes crust with screamo elements like Alpinist but also crust with post-rock elements like Fall of Efrafa. Blackened crust is just crust but blackened. These bands are usually not thrown together with the neocrust bunch of bands because they tend to be fairly straightforward. OFcourse there are a couple bands that have post-black elements and they could be called neocrust.

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raumr
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:11 pm
Posts: 1006
Location: Norway
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 5:17 pm 
 

Zodijackyl wrote:
Genres are broad generalizations, not such specific things. That kinda riff sounds like it belongs on the same album as this one, though. Cold and primitive, it's right at home.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-B3k2-7ahI


Fair enough. I just find often that I lack the vocabulary to properly describe such riffs, and it seemed like a more primitive version of the "chorus riff" on the title track, which has been called a thrash riff.

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A_S_K_R
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2016 8:55 pm
Posts: 3
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 7:59 am 
 

What is Grindcore tho:
Is it closer to “core“ or to metal?
Bc it's actuallly an Umbrella term for all the -grind genres, but thatd mean they are “grind“ with metal influences or grind-styled metal, So what about the “core“ then?

It's more logic to call it grindmetal

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Ritual_Suicide
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:39 am
Posts: 414
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:49 pm 
 

Except most grind isn't metal.

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Auch
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:40 pm
Posts: 275
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:16 pm 
 

Grindcore is a larger/umbrella subgenre that is kind of the middle ground between hardcore and metal. As such, there is a lot of variation in sound based on which aspects of different metal (and other extreme) genres it pulls from. So there are a lot of grind bands that pull mostly from the hardcore/punk/fastcore/powerviolence/any other punk subgenre you can think of/industrial/noise/atonal jazz-y sides (which aren't on MA), then there are the grindcore bands that pull more from various metal subgenres which are on here.

That goes for goregrind and pornogrind too--while there are certain music elements that those subgenres use to distinguish themselves, they're mainly differentiated by their lyrics so there are more punk gore/pornogrind bands and more metal gore/pornogrind bands.

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Airon13
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:27 am
Posts: 14
Location: Spain
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:25 am 
 

hey! Is math metal a real genre? Can you name any band?
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tomcat_ha
Minister of Boiling Water

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
Posts: 4766
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:16 am 
 

not really at most there is overlap with mathcore which would be an actual genre but cant think of a lot of mathcore influenced metal to begin with.

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IamDBR
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:58 am
Posts: 1448
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:30 am 
 

tomcat_ha wrote:
not really at most there is overlap with mathcore which would be an actual genre but cant think of a lot of mathcore influenced metal to begin with.

It isn't much but how about these?

Youtube: show


Youtube: show


Youtube: show


Youtube: show

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Auch
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:40 pm
Posts: 275
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:03 pm 
 

I am/was a huge Gaza fan and they fall firmly on the mathcore side. They have some metal aspects, but not enough to make them "math metal." Coma Cluster Void and Pyrrhon both sound like mathcore with some metal influence (more than Gaza at least), but are still really firmly rooted in mathcore/hardcore.

Plebeian Grandstand are probably your best argument for a math-y metal. I think it's hard to say math metal exists because its main signifiers (erratic technicality, weird time signatures and pacing, heavy syncopation, etc.) were unique when they were first applied to hardcore, but have a history in the technical and avant-garde metal branches and there aren't enough differences to differentiate "math metal" from those sub genres. Like for example, Ulcerate and Deathspell Omega have some "mathy" qualities on paper, but no one would use that to describe them because we already have common language for them. It's no coincidence that if you look on the Archives, both Plebeian Grandstand and DsO are classified as "avant-garde black metal."

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Ritual_Suicide
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:39 am
Posts: 414
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:20 pm 
 

Everytime I've seen someone use the term "math metal" what they've been actually talking about is "djent" or mathcore.

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Zodijackyl
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Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
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Location: Longmont Potion Castle
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:55 pm 
 

Nobody says "math metal" and there are more commonly used terms (progressive metal, technical ___ metal) which are more accurate.
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BrutalizerUtilizerOfTheShadows
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:59 am
Posts: 764
Location: In the Cold Winds of Nowhere
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:53 pm 
 

What constitutes "funeral doom?"
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Antioch
Metalhead

Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 4:08 am
Posts: 1250
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:23 pm 
 

Ambience is a main constituent. Ideally played at lento tempo or slower.
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ourios
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 11:07 pm
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:38 pm 
 

tomcat_ha wrote:
there is some good skramz/emo violence coming out these days out of germany especially. Bands like Henry Fonda, lawine, afterlife kids, loma prieta


For me Euro PM is more cheesy, better production since it's newer usually and there's more going on in terms of melodies, instruments and whatnot. USPM on the other hand sounds a lot more traditional and rawer since most of it was done in 80s, to be honest a lot of the time it just sounds like your normal thrash/speed.

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SweetLeaf95
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:19 am
Posts: 609
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:41 pm 
 

I thought of starting a thread, but probably not needed. Since this technically is about a genre, it's going here. In the rules, it states that to be "metal" enough, it must use metal riffs. So I'm curious, what makes something a "metal" riff to you? How is it so different from hard rock? Why are Deep Purple's riffs metal but Led Zeppelin's are not, or do you think otherwise? What do you all think?
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Zodijackyl
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Location: Longmont Potion Castle
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:26 pm 
 

Up to and including much of the NWOBHM, there's a ton of overlap between hard rock and heavy metal. Almost everything from before 1978 is going to be labeled either hard rock/heavy metal or NWOBHM. Pretty much anything from the 70s is going to be an arbitrary line between hard rock and heavy metal. We basically draw the line from Paranoid to Killing Machine.

Blah blah, predominantly metal album, blah blah, Zeppelin had some heavy riffs and some blues rock songs. The answer, with regard to this site, is literally "because we said so." Your penance for asking is ten spins of Stained Class.
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SweetLeaf95
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:19 am
Posts: 609
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:46 pm 
 

I wasn't particularly asking the mods why Zeppelin isn't in the archives, I'm fully aware that you guys "said so" and that that ship sailed long ago, I just cited the rules for reference. I'm more or less curious as to what other users think it is that makes something a "metal riff", etc. There's all this talk about "crust", "grind", "math", "blackened post scream-core with a little melody" bullshit, figured why not change it and strip it down to the bare basics, before every tiny little change in sound had to have its own category.
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Antioch
Metalhead

Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 4:08 am
Posts: 1250
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:15 am 
 

Think strumming/chugging vs picking. Personally, I don't find the genres you listed very tricky. I find it hard to decide when it gets really slow or fuzzy, e.g. the line between stoner rock and metal. The more you listen to a genre the more you know about it.

I remember Azmodes once wrote (in a rejection note) "when you see technical and progressive metal clash in the genre tag, it's most probably djent." He somehow knew I had no idea what djent was; and, be it true or not, I thought the comment was brilliant, because it conveyed a lot more than what the words were supposed to say.

Why don't you watch some YouTube videos explaining such techniques? Some are really educative. You need to hear the difference not read about it. After all, not everybody is as eloquent as Az.
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Azmodes
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Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
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Location: Gradec, Austria
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:21 pm 
 

Antioch wrote:
I remember Azmodes once wrote (in a rejection note) "when you see technical and progressive metal clash in the genre tag, it's most probably djent."

Pretty sure it was either/both of those plus "groove". :)
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Antioch
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:29 pm 
 

Yup, both. :nods: :eek:
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Talented Juli
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 5:36 pm
Posts: 86
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:57 am 
 

Does "Blackened Death Metal" refer to bands like Molested/Dead Congregation/Portal that have a very tremolo-picky/note-spammy "wall of noise" sound to them? You know, the "downtuned Transilvanian Hunger" stuff. Or does it refer to bands more like Dissection/Unanimated that are a bit riffier, but maintain that black metal feel? For the record, "Storm of the Light's Bane" and "In the Forest of Dreaming Dead" are the only albums I've heard by Dissection/Unanimated, so I'm referring to the sound they had on those albums. IDK if maybe they changed their sound on other albums.

Also why is Sempiternal Deathreign listed as Death/Doom and not Death/Thrash?
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