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Immerse
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:23 am
Posts: 50
Location: Greece
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:17 am 
 

Talented Juli wrote:
Does "Blackened Death Metal" refer to bands like Molested/Dead Congregation/Portal that have a very tremolo-picky/note-spammy "wall of noise" sound to them? You know, the "downtuned Transilvanian Hunger" stuff. Or does it refer to bands more like Dissection/Unanimated that are a bit riffier, but maintain that black metal feel? For the record, "Storm of the Light's Bane" and "In the Forest of Dreaming Dead" are the only albums I've heard by Dissection/Unanimated, so I'm referring to the sound they had on those albums. IDK if maybe they changed their sound on other albums.

Also why is Sempiternal Deathreign listed as Death/Doom and not Death/Thrash?

Portal is not black/death.This is black/death.
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Kommanderhooyah
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:56 pm
Posts: 111
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:27 pm 
 

How would epic black metal be classified? Would it be something in between symphonic and atmospheric black metal? All of the bands classified as epic black metal I can think of would fit that description, although generally leaning in one direction or the other (Summoning, Darkestrah), but I was wondering what the general consensus would be?
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tomcat_ha
Minister of Boiling Water

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
Posts: 4710
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:12 pm 
 

Talented Juli wrote:
Does "Blackened Death Metal" refer to bands like Molested/Dead Congregation/Portal that have a very tremolo-picky/note-spammy "wall of noise" sound to them? You know, the "downtuned Transilvanian Hunger" stuff. Or does it refer to bands more like Dissection/Unanimated that are a bit riffier, but maintain that black metal feel? For the record, "Storm of the Light's Bane" and "In the Forest of Dreaming Dead" are the only albums I've heard by Dissection/Unanimated, so I'm referring to the sound they had on those albums. IDK if maybe they changed their sound on other albums.

Also why is Sempiternal Deathreign listed as Death/Doom and not Death/Thrash?


Black/death can be a couple different things there is the whole modern brutal kind as done by Belphegor and to a lesser extend Behemoth.
There is the very murky kind also referred to as caverncore like Irkallian Oracle or Impetuous Ritual.
There are the war metal bands with less direct thrash/grind influence like Diocletian and Archgoat
There are also bands which are a more "normal" mix of black and death metal riffs like Aeternus after the first 2 albums and Begrime Exeminous
Lastly there is the whole melodic black/death thing which is actually kind of a spectrum. On the death metal side you got bands like Dismember and Desultory and on the other side you got for example Dawn's Slaughtersun album or Sacramentums - Far Away from the Sun. In between these 2 extremes(sort of) you got bands like Dissection and Unanimated which lean more to the black metal side but also Lunar Strain by In flames or ofcourse the first at the gates album, stuff that leans towards the death metal side.


Also Sempiternal Deathreign is an 80s death/doom record and this is reflected in the kinda thrash like riffing. This is also caused because of the guitar tone as the band is playing in E I think.
Also ofcourse its death/doom because of:
https://youtu.be/26w6OQil21o?t=76
Its a pioneering record so obviously it isnt completely detached from what came before it.

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IamDBR
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:58 am
Posts: 1449
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:15 am 
 

1) Where does one draw the line between death/doom, funeral doom & drone/doom? Is it just a matter of varying tempi?

2) Are d-beat & crust punk interchangeable terms? I do understand d-beat is basically a drum beat but I've seen certain hardcore bands being described as d-beat.

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MDL
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:12 pm
Posts: 341
Location: Portugal
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:27 pm 
 

In terms of "speedness", both death doom and funeral doom are pretty similar, but still different musically:

Death Doom is a mixture of doom's slowness, lugubrity and tempos with death's heaviness. Check Derkéta, Anhedonist and Thorr's Hammer. It might evoke a sad and melancholic atmosphere, although not necessarily.

Funeral Doom features an intense incorporation of melancholic, funereal and depressive melody and atmosphere to death doom. Many times, it haves keyboards or another symphonic elements to emphasize that specific sound, even though a guitar can also produce them. The difference is regarded by that. Check Ahab, Ayashinan and The Howling Void.

Drone Doom is the slowest and most minimalistic subgenre of doom. It takes many influences from drone music, mixing both styles and creating a reverb and distorted sound. Check Sunn O))), Nadja and Grave Temple.

--------------------

D-beat and crust (along with many other heavier styles of punk) can be associated, since some bands mix D-beat technique with another style's regular instrumentation. It might have a certain pattern to act, such as what happens with Nu Pogodi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNeeR4wVp3g

While it can be mixed, doesn't mean that they mean the same thing. Crust is a genre and d-beat, while a little wimpy, it's another genre. As for the labeling, probably the person who categorized x band as "d-beat" just remarked the specific percussive pattern that it uses. Also, many bands miscategorize their own sound, often accidently, often with an intention of looking special, different or "avant-garde-ist".

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IamDBR
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:58 am
Posts: 1449
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:27 am 
 

^Thanks man, that clears up a few things.

Also, that Howling Void is pretty good. I need more funeral doom in life it seems.

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tomcat_ha
Minister of Boiling Water

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
Posts: 4710
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:53 pm 
 

nothing wimpy about bands like avskum, discharge and anti cimex.
There is a lot of overlap between d-beat and crust but crust tends to go for heavier more metallic riffing. A lot of the confusion about the genres stems from that a lot of crust punk is from sweden and Swedish crust evolved out of the older swedish d-beat scene. This mix of the 2 genres called Kängpunk pretty much ended up dominating the crust scene in general.
There is another form of crust that is more clearly distant from d-beat and that is also often referred to as stenchcore. Its basically even more metal influenced and does not have as many d-beats. Prominent bands include Amebix and Axegrinder but the line also can be drawn through the actually very crusty Bolt Thrower to modern bands like Stormcrow.

Anyway swedish d-beat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srIJBLZO1i8

Early swedish crust/d-beat crossover:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ejSo3xXE_Y

compared with fully developed swedish kängpunk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXDs08bEDAM

early crust:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY73_f0KRgE

fully developed crust leaning a tad on the stenchcore side:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYZXkKVLOIQ

early stenchcore:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hysYmrLoyUM

fully developed stenchcore:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PSa7KY_w7o

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tentacleterror
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:28 pm
Posts: 183
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:54 am 
 

Two old Swedish bands that show the difference between hardcore punk and d-beat.

Missbrukarna are considered to be one of the first hardcore punk bands from Sweden. More Punk rock sounding with a d-beat i guess.
This is from their 1980 recording (a split)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOVRkteZ4bE
Missbrukarna in 1984
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSJCN52hOwY

And before Anti-Cimex, Avskum, G-Anx etc. we had a band called Asocial.
From their 1980 Demo
https://youtu.be/yNNGP4XN6QM?t=585
Asocial in... well some say 1982 and some say 1984, either way this is fast d-beat hardcore also known as Kängpunk. The only faster band from this time would be G-Anx, those 1984 recordings are rabid as fuck!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7rVuEeQwMk

Kängpunk is just another word for D-beat hardcore, like Discharge but faster.
And whoever called D-beat wimpy have no idea what they are talking about. :-P

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1qazxsw2
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:59 pm
Posts: 7
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:42 pm 
 

Immerse wrote:
Portal is not black/death.This is black/death.


Belphegor are fucking pop-stars m8

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squidrick9042
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:11 pm
Posts: 132
Location: Asheville, NC
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:25 am 
 

laxskinn wrote:
IamDBR wrote:
'War' metal vs blackened death metal vs black/death metal (again, any difference or just different labeling for a same entity?)

Also another thing that intrigues me is the death/black, black/death or power/thrash, thrash/power sort of labeling. What does this order signify? Which genre is more prominent in such a case, the first or the second one?


I assume that the reason Blackened death metal exist as a term, while all the other ones are written with a slash, is because "black" is the only genre name which is an adjective. If it hadn't been, people would just use black/death metal instead. It creates a situation were bands firmly within one genre but with a bit of black metal influence can get a special blackened genre, while influences from other genres can't be shown in the same way. They would have to be written with a slash, wich would indicate that the genres are more or less equal parts.

As an example Powered thrash metal or Deathed (dead?) folk metal just sounds retarded, as Power and Death are nouns. The result is that you can have a more nuanced genre if you are influenced by black metal than if you are influenced by other genres.

I think you bring up a really good point by saying that "black" is the only genre that also acts as an adjective. If you look back to a time before black metal was a defined genre the term was primarily used as an adjective only and not as an actual genre. Bands called black metal in the 80s and even up to around 1991 were often from a range of different genres and all connected by lyrical and aesthetic themes rather than by sound. I've read old interviews with Euronymous and Dead from around 89-90 where they both described mayhem as "black death metal" and even referred to Deicide as black metal. I think that this historical use of the term survived in the long run despite black metal establishing itself as a genre in the early 90s. Bands outside of the genre defining spectrum like Midnight, Aura Noir, Goatwhore, Baphomet's Blood, etc can still use black to describe their style despite not actually being pure black metal. I mean these days there is black/thrash, black/speed, black/death, black/crust, and almost any combo you can think of yet a lot of these styles derive their "blackness" from an 80s style definition of the term and not necessarily because they incorporate elements of black metal the genre.
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Hyungnim
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:57 am
Posts: 65
Location: Novorossiysk, Russia
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:31 pm 
 

https://open.spotify.com/album/5rl8a75qUz8rwEkTD6MVsW

Tell me, please, what is the name of this genre? But please describe in detail, because the sound of each track is very different from the previous.
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MDL
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:12 pm
Posts: 341
Location: Portugal
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:05 pm 
 

What genre is this song? Sounds like pop rock to me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UChhniDdQ8o

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tomcat_ha
Minister of Boiling Water

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
Posts: 4710
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:08 pm 
 

sounds like slam to me

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droneriot
cisgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 7573
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:11 am 
 

squidrick9042 wrote:
laxskinn wrote:
I assume that the reason Blackened death metal exist as a term, while all the other ones are written with a slash, is because "black" is the only genre name which is an adjective.

I think you bring up a really good point by saying that "black" is the only genre that also acts as an adjective.

Uhh... "heavy" is an adjective.
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squidrick9042
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:11 pm
Posts: 132
Location: Asheville, NC
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:58 am 
 

droneriot wrote:
Uhh... "heavy" is an adjective.

Fair enough but pretty much all metal can be defined as heavy due to the nature of the genre whereas only some metal can be described as black. You don't see people using heavy in the same sense as I described black being used in my original post. People won't describe a thrash band as "heavy thrash" as it is already implied they are heavy and it adds nothing to the description, but saying "black thrash" implies that the thrash band has a certain style or aesthetic to their thrash as not all thrash is "black."
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TheUnhinged
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:28 pm
Posts: 247
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 11:14 pm 
 

Melodic doom and atmospheric doom metal are two styles that I feel get used as sort of a blanket term for gothic/doom and death/doom bands that just so happen to have a slightly more laidback sound. To me, the styles have particular criteria that summon up their sound, and there are a handful of bands who pull it off.

Melodic Doom Metal
- same instrumentation as traditional doom, though more laidback sounding
- lead clean vocals, with no harsh vocals whatsoever
- mostly guitar-driven, with few to no keyboards or symphonic elements
- riffage can have some periods sounding close to funeral doom or death/doom, but never has any extreme sounding passages

Spoiler: show
Youtube: show

Youtube: show

Youtube: show

Youtube: show

Youtube: show


Atmospheric Doom Metal
- slow to mid-tempo songs that mix guitars and keyboards
- keyboards add a dreamy or astral feel to the mix
- gothic elements may be underlying, but never considerably in the forefront
- may have some ambient or darkwave elements in the mix
- clean or spoken word vocals, with little to no death grunts or screams

Spoiler: show
Youtube: show

Youtube: show

Youtube: show

Youtube: show

Youtube: show


My reason for bringing this up is because I have seen a lot of extreme sounding doom metal bands (and some not even really sounding like doom at all) being labelled with the phrase, making me wonder if atmospheric/melodic doom is the "dark metal" of doom.

Here are some bands that are listed as Melodic or Atmospheric Doom that I don't think meet the criteria of meeting the sound.
Astral Forest (labelled as Melodic Doom Metal) YouTube
Hellbound (labelled as Melodic Doom Metal) Bandcamp
Outshine (labelled as Melodic Doom Metal) Homepage
Soothsayer (labelled as Atmospheric Doom Metal) Bandcamp
Treurwilg (labelled as Atmospheric Doom Metal) Bandcamp
Imber Luminis (labelled as Atmospheric Doom Metal) Bandcamp

So, could someone tell me if they also see it as though atmospheric and melodic doom are standalone genres, or if they are vague enough that black, death, sludge, and other extreme metal elements can fit into it? Two albums in which I felt it was appropriate to lump them into the two were as follows:

Mesmerised by Atrox (melodic doom riffs with a weird, proggy atmosphere to it. Harsh male vocals are prevalent in the mix, but they don't quite sound like death growls, so I felt it would be inaccurate to call it death/doom).

Oneiricon - The White Hypnotic by Ras Algethi (spacey atmospheric doom riffs with a mix of clean male chants and male screams. While many tend to call this funeral doom, I felt the atmosphere was too light and not quite slow enough to be considered funeral, and the screams definitely weren't harsh enough to make it comparable to death or black metal).


Last edited by TheUnhinged on Fri May 12, 2017 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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sonic_enemy_333
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:56 am
Posts: 161
Location: India
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 12:13 pm 
 

What genre is this album. MA says it is just death metal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wtXpyEK344
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MutantClannfear
Veteran

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 12:12 am
Posts: 3088
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 8:10 pm 
 

sonic_enemy_333 wrote:
What genre is this album. MA says it is just death metal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wtXpyEK344

That's correct. This is just nasty, filthy death metal - the most famous band of this style would be Incantation.
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The Clansman 95
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 6:25 pm
Posts: 8
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 11:50 am 
 

Someone should explain to the guys from Sputnikmusic that Epic Metal is not a synonym to Power Metal, and that Symphonic Metal is an actual genre

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sonic_enemy_333
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:56 am
Posts: 161
Location: India
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 12:08 pm 
 

lol nasty, filthy.. seems like you're not a big fan.
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IamDBR
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:58 am
Posts: 1449
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 1:34 pm 
 

sonic_enemy_333 wrote:
lol nasty, filthy.. seems like you're not a big fan.

Filthy, nasty, murky, disgusting, nauseating, foul etc. are all positive adjectives when it comes to this sort of metal.

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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
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Location: Lifeless shadows
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 1:59 pm 
 

That album is very, very much death metal. Much more death metal than much of death metal.
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MorbidEngel
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:37 pm
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Location: New Jersey
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 10:35 am 
 

Speaking of death metal, where exactly does the line get drawn between death metal and brutal death metal? I've always considered brutal death to be faster or more "intense" (in the case of Slam) and the drumming more frenetic (I know, it's not riffs but bear with me), with speed or intensity emphasized. For example, I've always considered Hate Eternal and Aborted (though they do have their regular DM moments) to be brutal death with how fast their stuff is and the constant blast beats, while Skinless to be normal death metal, with the closest to BDM being Trample the Weak
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Osmiumthemetal
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 10:30 pm
Posts: 88
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 10:04 pm 
 

tomcat_ha wrote:
nothing wimpy about bands like avskum, discharge and anti cimex.
There is a lot of overlap between d-beat and crust but crust tends to go for heavier more metallic riffing. A lot of the confusion about the genres stems from that a lot of crust punk is from sweden and Swedish crust evolved out of the older swedish d-beat scene. This mix of the 2 genres called Kängpunk pretty much ended up dominating the crust scene in general.
There is another form of crust that is more clearly distant from d-beat and that is also often referred to as stenchcore. Its basically even more metal influenced and does not have as many d-beats. Prominent bands include Amebix and Axegrinder but the line also can be drawn through the actually very crusty Bolt Thrower to modern bands like Stormcrow.

Anyway swedish d-beat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srIJBLZO1i8

Early swedish crust/d-beat crossover:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ejSo3xXE_Y

compared with fully developed swedish kängpunk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXDs08bEDAM

early crust:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY73_f0KRgE

fully developed crust leaning a tad on the stenchcore side:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYZXkKVLOIQ

early stenchcore:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hysYmrLoyUM

fully developed stenchcore:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PSa7KY_w7o

Another good example of Stenchcore would be Concrete Sox.
https://youtu.be/Ewh3KgMN8pE

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Kveldulfr
Veteran

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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 12:37 pm 
 

MorbidEngel wrote:
Speaking of death metal, where exactly does the line get drawn between death metal and brutal death metal? I've always considered brutal death to be faster or more "intense" (in the case of Slam) and the drumming more frenetic (I know, it's not riffs but bear with me), with speed or intensity emphasized. For example, I've always considered Hate Eternal and Aborted (though they do have their regular DM moments) to be brutal death with how fast their stuff is and the constant blast beats, while Skinless to be normal death metal, with the closest to BDM being Trample the Weak


Hate Eternal, Krisiun and all that kind of stuff are just very fast death metal. They mostly keep a consistent tempo and riffing style.

Nile would be brutal death metal, tho. They usually go very fast and have some sudden changes in tempo and riffing, adding slower atmospheric moments between the brutal sections (pretty much like slam emulated later).

It's a matter of composition, more like mere sound.
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IamDBR
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:58 am
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 3:01 pm 
 

Imo, most Brutal Death Metal has the following characteristics:

> Based on downtuned chromatic riffing
> Crushing groove/slams utilized as breakdowns
> Minimal use of melody
> Vocals are guttural to the point of being completely indecipherable, pig squeals are also used by several bands as well.
> Production is usually compressed as fuck to give the music a more heavier sound.
> Often times the snare drum has a 'pingy' tone to it.

Hate Eternal, Krisiun (the older stuff) are somewhere between standard dm & bdm. Aborted earlier stuff is definitely brutal even venturing into deathgrind territory but the newer shit is more tech/modern death metal oriented.

At the end of the day, these are all minor intricacies that one figures out with time & 'conscious' listening. I know when I had a hard time distinguishing between fucking black metal & death metal!

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BrunoGriloDias
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:21 pm
Posts: 13
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 8:19 pm 
 

What about Classic Rock?
There are 3 bands in the MA (Vivid, Casual Silence and Mudslide) that are classified in this genre

What necessarily defines this genre?

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tomcat_ha
Minister of Boiling Water

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
Posts: 4710
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 11:17 am 
 

sounds like tags that need to get fixed. In essence classic rock is nothing but a radio format for old (hard)rock and some metal that was big and popular.

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BrunoGriloDias
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:21 pm
Posts: 13
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 1:15 pm 
 

tomcat_ha wrote:
sounds like tags that need to get fixed. In essence classic rock is nothing but a radio format for old (hard)rock and some metal that was big and popular.


Yeah, man, that's what I've imagined, but as I read this in that bands genres, I thought it might be something more specific
Thanks!

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Nhor
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:59 pm
Posts: 308
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:24 am 
 

I love this album but it just occurred to me that on my favorite song there aren't any riffs, just chugging. Is this djent or something? It's definitely not metal.
Youtube: show

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tomcat_ha
Minister of Boiling Water

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
Posts: 4710
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:56 am 
 

its djent aye

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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:04 am 
 

You know it's djent when it starts with a swelling, atmospheric synth intro, and goes into syncopated one-note riffing in drop Ø tuning probably on a 13½-string guitar with an extended scale length of 47¾ inches.
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Osmiumthemetal
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 10:30 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:04 pm 
 

You know what, this is something that's been on my mind for a while.

Where exactly does hard rock stop, and actual metal genres begin? I feel this is a pretty legit question to ask, because if you look at the 1970's, just about every band that is considered metal is also hard rock. Black Sabbath, Buffalo, Budgie, Bang, Sir Lord Baltimore, Lucifer's Friend, Deep Purple and tonnes of others are some varying degree of metal and hard rock. I know that there is no defining line, and there is basically a sliding scale in the hard rock canon of how metal you are.

One thing that I find interesting from this time period too is that both speed and doom metal (in their most primitive forms anyway) were almost as developed as Heavy Metal itself, coming from this hard rock canon. Flower Travellin' Band, Randy Holden, and Bedemon were playing Trad Doom, with FTB and Randy Holden being nearly as old as Sabbath itself, and Speed Metal having tonnes of proto-songs from this time too, going from Children of the Grave, to Speed King, to Dissident Aggressor and Exciter.

I feel like I'm just rambling, but with how much metal genres are obviously discussed, it's still a funny thing with how fuzzy the start of metal itself actually is. Yeah, you can put the obvious milestones like Black Sabbath's s/t and Priest's Stained Class and all that, but it's still interesting to see how much metal was just hard rock transitioning through the 70's step by step. But, really, where exactly do you think Hard Rock truly ends and Heavy Metal (or even Doom Metal/Speed Metal) starts, or at least where do the metal traits of the music start to overshadow the hard rock/blues rock/psych/prog/whatever ones?

Also one more thing, speaking of Prog. Maybe I don't go around enough, but I don't see progressive rock get as much credit as it deserves when it comes to the evolution of metal.

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Zodijackyl
Has psudo-intelligence

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:03 pm 
 

There's a huge overlap between hard rock and heavy metal. One would miss the point to try to divide it or draw a line. Trying to call something one or the other is a pointless theoretical argument, IMO. I really *hate* the proto-x labels, too, they just get ridiculous and look at a single riff while missing the bigger picture.

While we do address this to an extent while running this site, we more or less take what's been commonly accepted for years before this site existed - Sabbath and Priest are metal, and we sort of use them as reference points and include bands who were as heavy as Sabbath.
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Osmiumthemetal
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 10:30 pm
Posts: 88
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:28 pm 
 

Zodijackyl wrote:
There's a huge overlap between hard rock and heavy metal. One would miss the point to try to divide it or draw a line. Trying to call something one or the other is a pointless theoretical argument, IMO. I really *hate* the proto-x labels, too, they just get ridiculous and look at a single riff while missing the bigger picture.

While we do address this to an extent while running this site, we more or less take what's been commonly accepted for years before this site existed - Sabbath and Priest are metal, and we sort of use them as reference points and include bands who were as heavy as Sabbath.


That's what I was trying to get at with my post. It's a transition and it becomes hopeless to put a line somewhere. Every band that is considered metal in the 70's is some percentage metal and some percentage hard rock/prog/blues. This continues into the 80's too. I guess maybe I was going against my own points by asking where do people consider the metal traits to overshadow the others as that is completely suggestive and every band does something different.

And like I was saying before it becomes even more unclear with how speed metal and what would be called doom retroactively are intertwined pretty deep here too.

It's like heavy metal is a cloud, and on one side it mixes with the hard rock cloud pretty deeply, then next to the hard rock cloud is a progressive rock cloud that mixes into both other clouds (with the prog and hard clouds making heavy prog XP) and the hard rock cloud and progressive rock cloud also interlap with a "psychedelic rock" cloud and the "psychedelic rock" cloud and hard rock cloud interlap with a blues rock cloud, and on another side of the heavy metal cloud it interlaps with punk rock cloud which makes a speed metal cloud which interlaps with a thrash cloud and so on. What I'm trying to say is genres are more spectrums than anything that can go in any direction with nebulous proportions and edges.

I guess with my example Black Sabbath would be like halfway inbetween the hard rock and heavy metal cloud, while Judas Priest would be leaning more towards the metal edge while still being in the interap while Iron Maiden is pretty much entirely in the Heavy Metal cloud. Even still this becomes messy because every band changes style over time.

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SweetLeaf95
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:19 am
Posts: 609
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:29 am 
 

They do overlap, and there's not enough of a difference for there to be a fine line. That's why the fact that there's this "great divide" is fucking stupid.
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dmiller458
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu May 11, 2017 10:04 pm
Posts: 21
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:46 pm 
 

Whether "the great divide" is stupid or not, it's still there. For most, the main difference between hard rock and metal is that hard rock's still built on a solid foundation of rock's traditional roots dynamics of blues and country, folk and gospel. Punk and Metal and Corporate/Arena rock have slowly stripped away that traditional roots sound and replaced it with the dynamics of classical, avant-garde, and free jazz.

I always wonder how far can the music move beyond the conventions of rock and still remain metal. At what point is it really avant-garde or fusion merely dressed up in leather and whorpse paint?

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Bachstein
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:49 am
Posts: 73
Location: Hungary
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:22 am 
 

Hi Guys,

How would you describe the genre of The Grand Annihilation album by Tombs?
I feel many influences in this album, including some post, sludge, black and who knows what else, but I can't really categorize it.
I'm really interested what do you think about it.

Youtube: show

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TXMetal
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 2:52 pm
Posts: 44
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:59 pm 
 

Their band page has Tombs listed as "Black/Post-Metal" - that's probably about as close as you'll get to a concise genre description.

Some bands will drive you nuts if you try to get too picky with the genre. In that album I hear black, post-, sludge, thrash... there's just no way to cover all of that with any reasonable term.

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IamDBR
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:58 am
Posts: 1449
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:35 pm 
 

Certain bands which play a multitude of styles are labeled as 'various' on this site. Melvins for example.

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