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Cosmic_Equilibrium
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:03 pm
Posts: 325
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:14 am 
 

I made this post on another forum, but I'm also putting it here as I think there's an interesting discussion to be had.

Basically, The Great Southern Trendkill is Pantera's Sabotage.

Both are records made by bands with their backs to the wall and middle finger in the air. Both are arguably the last worthwhile/classic records of the classic Sabbath line up and Pantera. Both were made in trying circumstances and amidst band tensions - Sabbath were coming out of a year-long legal battle with their former management, Pantera were affected by Anselmo's distancing from the rest of the band and the controversies surrounding him at the time. Both were made by bands strung out on heavy substance usage - Sabbath were complete coke heads at this point (and were doing practically everything else under the sun as well), Pantera were heavy alcoholics and Anselmo had started using heroin. Both albums are considered as overlooked classics by some critics and also sections of the band's fan base. Both albums are also the most experimental and creatively varied each band got. And both albums are each band's most abrasive, underpinned by seething anger that in places is almost psychotic (seriously, just listen to The Writ for unbridled venom, and the sheer intensity of some of the songs on TGST). Ozzy and Anselmo both sound they are on the point of going over the edge at times.

I think there are a lot of similarities. Both albums just have an almighty "fuck you" vibe going on, with the band just going for it. There's strong reasons for saying that both are each band's high point. I noticed the contextual similarities a couple of years ago, and wondered if anyone else thought the same way.

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Twisted_Psychology
Metal freak

Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 5038
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:02 pm 
 

I could see the parallels between both albums though Trendkill is a bit too much of a mixed bag for me. Though if we really want to play the Sabbath-Pantera comparison game, Never Say Die! and Re-Inventing the Steel both feature bands that are in adamant denial of their respective demises.
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aloof
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Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:18 pm
Posts: 2492
Location: never neverland, palm trees by the sea
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:36 pm 
 

Cosmic_Equilibrium wrote:
Both albums are also the most experimental and creatively varied each band got. And both albums are each band's most abrasive, underpinned by seething anger that in places is almost psychotic.


the "experimental and creatively varied" bit is the defining characteristic for Sabotage for me, and I don't hear that on the (/any) Pantera album... I also don't hear the anger on Sabotage. they sound comfortably complacent and creative.

/the number of times I've heard each album are around 3000 to 1. guess in which direction.

while some of your points may seem true on a superficial level, this isn't just a case of apples and oranges. it's just wrong. sorry.
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Cosmic_Equilibrium
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:03 pm
Posts: 325
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:44 pm 
 

aloof wrote:
Cosmic_Equilibrium wrote:
Both albums are also the most experimental and creatively varied each band got. And both albums are each band's most abrasive, underpinned by seething anger that in places is almost psychotic.


the "experimental and creatively varied" bit is the defining characteristic for Sabotage for me, and I don't hear that on the (/any) Pantera album... I also don't hear the anger on Sabotage. they sound comfortably complacent and creative.

/the number of times I've heard each album are around 3000 to 1. guess in which direction.

while some of your points may seem true on a superficial level, this isn't just a case of apples and oranges. it's just wrong. sorry.


I can accept that not everyone might agree with the comparison, but come on, you can't deny Sabotage is an angry and gloomy record. As I said, look at the lyrics to The Writ, and the way Ozzy sings them. They called the album Sabotage because that was how they felt after a year long legal wrangle with their former management who had ripped them off big time. There's a real fury energising the band on that album. Iommi acknowledged the situation influenced the sound of the record.

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snarg
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri May 22, 2020 4:25 pm
Posts: 101
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:02 pm 
 

While i can't comment on Sabbath, don't really know their discography that well as they never appealed to me, The Great Southern Trendkill is my favorite Pantera album by a landslide and the only album of theirs i still listen on occasion.

So, in that regard i have to agree that it sounds darker and with more punch than any of their other albums.

War Nerve is a true classic for me, the amount of anger and hate in that song is quite unparalleled in my book.

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aloof
avant-gardener

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:18 pm
Posts: 2492
Location: never neverland, palm trees by the sea
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:19 pm 
 

Cosmic_Equilibrium wrote:
I can accept that not everyone might agree with the comparison, but come on, you can't deny Sabotage is an angry and gloomy record. As I said, look at the lyrics to The Writ, and the way Ozzy sings them. They called the album Sabotage because that was how they felt after a year long legal wrangle with their former management who had ripped them off big time. There's a real fury energising the band on that album. Iommi acknowledged the situation influenced the sound of the record.


bands are entitled to feel different about their albums than their fans do. Sabbath "hate" Vol.4 because they were burned out and did mountains of coke making it. they rarely play stuff off it live. but if I meet a Sabbath "fan" who tells me they don't like it I just roll my eyes and stop talking to them :)
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jimbies
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:52 pm
Posts: 2177
Location: Ontario, Canada
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:21 pm 
 

Man, I've got to be one of the only people that actually really likes Reinventing The Steel? I mean, it's not my favourite Pantera record (that's Far Beyond Driven), but it has plenty of songs I really like.

I saw them on that tour, and they played really great, and the RiS songs sounded great live. It was such a mixed bag in terms of a lineup. Nothingface followed by Morbid Angel, followed by Soulfly, then Pantera. I remember between Morbid Angel and Soufly, they played Seasons In The Abyss over the PA system, and it got a bigger reaction than all the opening bands put together.

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LithoJazzoSphere
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 729
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:14 am 
 

"Revolution Is My Name" is probably in my top five of their songs.

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MorbidEarth
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:39 am
Posts: 401
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:21 am 
 

jimbies wrote:
I remember between Morbid Angel and Soufly, they played Seasons In The Abyss over the PA system, and it got a bigger reaction than all the opening bands put together.


Slayer actually toured with Pantera during the latter part of the Extreme Steel tour. Morbid Angel were still on the bill along with Static-X. Slayer and Pantera were also supposed to tour Europe together as co-headliners of a touring festival but after 9/11, Pantera backed out of the tour and it went ahead with Slayer as the sole headliner. Incidentally, the London date of that tour was my first ever concert.

Back on topic, I think Sabotage is one of Black Sabbath’s best albums while Reinventing The Steel is a somewhat underwhelming record that has its moments.

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Gravetemplar
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 1245
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:43 am 
 

I'm sorry but I don't see it. The only connection I'm able to do in my head about these two albums is how little I enjoy any of them.

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Lane
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2002 11:54 am
Posts: 352
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:50 am 
 

aloof wrote:
the "experimental and creatively varied" bit is the defining characteristic for Sabotage for me, and I don't hear that on the (/any) Pantera album...


Pantera just went faster and more abbrasive with their album, yes.

I think Pantera's 'Cowboys from Hell' should be their album here, more like.

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Xytras71
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:57 am
Posts: 285
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:44 pm 
 

Don't really see where this thread is headed. TGST is a very good record follows another very good record of FBD of Pantera. Sabotage is a very good record follows another very good one of SBS

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Metallic Shock
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:01 pm
Posts: 571
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:41 pm 
 

By Pantera's standards TGST is definitely the most experimental. 10s and Floods have this slower apocalyptic feel that they hadn't tried prior to it, Suicide Note Part 1 is a super ominous sounding acoustic ballad, Suicide Note Part 2 is almost grindcore levels of deranged at times, and Living Through Me has that industrial style interlude. Along with the fact that the album genuinely makes groove metal sound harsh and abrasive when it had previously leaned towards "thrash but slower and safer" in the eyes of many I fail to see how this is a standard Pantera album. No, it's not overall an album you'd put a genre descriptor of "experimental" in front of but it's still an adventurous album for the band on a similar scale to Sabotage for Sabbath. Because of this I can see the comparison as effect in an abstract sense.

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