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Bingewolf
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:50 am 
 

Over the past 24-36 hours, Horna has been targeted by MetalSucks for their ties to NSBM, resulting in the cancelation of a handful of their US tour dates.

TL;DR: Horna is being targeted because of Shatraug's NSBM projects (Blutschrei, Finnentum) and putting out NSBM on Grievantee Productions as well as Spellgoth being a member of Peste Noire.

I must admit that I never really got into Horna and had only heard them a few times (thought they were fine but nothing I cared to seek out further) so I had no idea of the connections (to be honest, I had no idea who was in the band) prior to the MetalSucks article circulating around the internet.

It's odd to me that a relatively small/underground band like Horna gets targeted but not the bigger bands who are equally tied to NSBM (Alcest comes to mind)... Honestly, I'd be surprised if the MS guys ever even heard Horna - but Alcest is a "big" band that gets a lot of press... but, then again, LA Weekly did a profile on a NS band and had no idea that the band had those ties and gave them a glowing review and recommendation so I guess it's all dependent on how much the writer actually knows about the scene they are covering.

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pfk505
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Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:04 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:10 pm 
 

Here we go again

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BodomSlayer
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:39 am
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:18 pm 
 

Ah yes, Metal Sucks. The National Enquirer of the metal community.

To be honest I had no idea Horna had associations to NS/NSBM but at the end of the day I separate the artist from the ideology. I don't listen to metal for the lyrical content, it's for the music. Varg Vikernes is insane but I still like the early Burzum albums.

I highly doubt Horna was coming to the US to spread Nazi ideals and hope to convert people. I think most of us in the metal community are smart enough to understand that. There will always be a few ignorant idiots in the bunch.

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Goatfangs
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:48 pm 
 

I'm not surprised. I was talking about NSBM on Facebook and how it was almost like a minefield with so many bands having some tie to the NS scene.

I brought up Alcest, because Neige was in Peste Noire, and Peste Noire is more or less NSBM. Of course, I don't believe Alcest and Amesoeurs are NSBM, however. But then I saw Spellgoth was with Horna and it made me wonder if that is who I saw live when Horna came through the area a long time ago.

I forget what year it was though. But I do know that it was in Allentown in a smoky bar put on by Biz R Entertainment. The show (as with many Biz R shows) ran late. Horna also didn't even get there until 1 AM. When they did play, whoever their vocalist was at the time unleashed his pen0r at the end of the set. But I'm 80% certain this was before 2009 when Corvus was in the band.

So I either saw Spellgoth or Corvus's penis. Whichever the case, neither impressed me.
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Lord_Jotun
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:04 pm 
 

Weird they'd pick an obscure side project hardly anyone ever cared for instead of the much more well known Satanic Warmaster connection.

At any rate it's the usual crap perfectly times to fuck up a band's touring schedule. I've see both Horna and Sargeist live and the political content of their shows amounts to zero. I don't own Horna's most recent couple of releases and I know a mere handful of Finnish words but it doesn't take weeks sweating on a dictionary to find out what their lyrics are usually about (not nazism or politics).

Weren't Northern (formerly Cold Northern Vengeance) supposed to play with Horna at a handful of these shows? Their founding member is pretty vocal about his distaste for antifa and metalsucks on facebook, which definitely raises my suspicion.

On a side note, Shatraug's wife/fiancee wrote a post lamenting the effects such policies have on the daily lives of musicians and their families and got blocked for "hate speech". Fun times.
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Bingewolf
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Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:25 pm 
 

BodomSlayer wrote:
Ah yes, Metal Sucks. The National Enquirer of the metal community.

To be honest I had no idea Horna had associations to NS/NSBM but at the end of the day I separate the artist from the ideology. I don't listen to metal for the lyrical content, it's for the music. Varg Vikernes is insane but I still like the early Burzum albums.

I highly doubt Horna was coming to the US to spread Nazi ideals and hope to convert people. I think most of us in the metal community are smart enough to understand that. There will always be a few ignorant idiots in the bunch.


Well, as far as I know, I don't think Horna has ever had any NS lyrics (though, as I said, I'm not a fan of the band so maybe someone else can answer that). I always assumed they were a pretty straight-forward "satanic" black metal band because I knew about the connection to Sargeist.

And, to your point, I still like the old Burzum songs too... but I will say that Varg's world-class shitbag personality has taken me away from listening to them. They're still in my iTunes catalog and, if it comes up I don't have a knee-jerk reaction and rush to change it... but I don't find myself going to listen to Burzum at all these days.

I also agree with your point on Horna's tour. No doubt, this was just going to be your typical black metal show and not some "Nazis take America" thing. However, I do appreciate having the knowledge of who they are... I find Peste Noire and their imagery appalling and I'd be pissed if I went to a local show of a band I wasn't all that familiar with and gave Spellgoth my money.


Goatfangs wrote:
I'm not surprised. I was talking about NSBM on Facebook and how it was almost like a minefield with so many bands having some tie to the NS scene.

I brought up Alcest, because Neige was in Peste Noire, and Peste Noire is more or less NSBM. Of course, I don't believe Alcest and Amesoeurs are NSBM, however. But then I saw Spellgoth was with Horna and it made me wonder if that is who I saw live when Horna came through the area a long time ago.

I forget what year it was though. But I do know that it was in Allentown in a smoky bar put on by Biz R Entertainment. The show (as with many Biz R shows) ran late. Horna also didn't even get there until 1 AM. When they did play, whoever their vocalist was at the time unleashed his pen0r at the end of the set. But I'm 80% certain this was before 2009 when Corvus was in the band.

So I either saw Spellgoth or Corvus's penis. Whichever the case, neither impressed me.


:lol: Nothing quite takes the "grim" away than seeing a trve kvlt penis during a show. That photo of Hoest from Taake's junk hanging out comes to mind.

You are right though... With more people paying attention to those ties now, it does begin to feel like a minefield because of so many bands being affiliated. I know that it was less taboo in the 90s because only so many people were playing/releasing black metal that fans let it slide a little more. But when all four current/past members of Alcest were also in Peste Noire (and 3/4 of Amesoeurs), it seems a little too close for my comfort. And obviously, Alcest and Amesoeurs are not NS bands themselves - but the members obviously don't have any issue with playing on an album called "Aryan Supremacy". And that's not even getting into Neige's Old Silver Key bandmates....

When Alcest is so much more high profile, you'd think that would've come up by now.


Lord_Jotun wrote:
Weird they'd pick an obscure side project hardly anyone ever cared for instead of the much more well known Satanic Warmaster connection.

At any rate it's the usual crap perfectly times to fuck up a band's touring schedule. I've see both Horna and Sargeist live and the political content of their shows amounts to zero. I don't own Horna's most recent couple of releases and I know a mere handful of Finnish words but it doesn't take weeks sweating on a dictionary to find out what their lyrics are usually about (not nazism or politics).

Weren't Northern (formerly Cold Northern Vengeance) supposed to play with Horna at a handful of these shows? Their founding member is pretty vocal about his distaste for antifa and metalsucks on facebook, which definitely raises my suspicion.

On a side note, Shatraug's wife/fiancee wrote a post lamenting the effects such policies have on the daily lives of musicians and their families and got blocked for "hate speech". Fun times.


I also saw Horna's Facebook post that they "aren't a political band" but did not address the implications of the story at all and I feel like they missed the point. No one said Horna was NSBM, they pointed out that Shatraug and Spellgoth are involved in NSBM projects. :lol:

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Derigin
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:32 pm 
 

Who cares?

I'm getting kinda sick of Metalsuck's "shitty manufactured metal controversy" of the week. Just stop giving them attention.
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Unorthodox
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:40 pm 
 

^hard to do that when they literally have promoters canceling their shows due to this manufactured controversy.
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PurpleDoom
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:02 pm 
 

It's just so bizarre to me to put all this focus on who and who doesn't have any kind of links whatsoever to NS when the bands in question typically have no racist lyrics and their fanbase is comprised of normal people. Are they bored from the lack of actual NSBM bands coming over from Europe to tour and need some other excuse to harass venues? Like, it would be one thing if the music had an explicitly NS message and attracted mainly right-wing nutjobs, but that's simply not the case for pretty much all of the bands Metalsucks has decided to start a shitshow over in the past however many years. There's just nothing to gain from doing this.

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Derigin
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:07 pm 
 

They seek attention. You don't get that by writing about some obscure, obvious NS band that nobody cares about. You do get it by writing salacious headlines about well-known bands, while trying to come off like you're TMZ digging up some dirty little secret. And it works, because here we are discussing their article.
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Auch
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Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:40 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:08 pm 
 

Unorthodox wrote:
^hard to do that when they literally have promoters canceling their shows due to this manufactured controversy.


How is it a manufactured controversy? Members of one band (regardless of whether or not they have an explicit political affiliation) also play in bands actively promoting far right ideologies and asked to use private venues to share their music, which regardless of stated political message can lead people to do some digging and find pro-fascist music and potentially be radicalized. The owners of those venues have the right to cancel the shows if they do not wish to be affiliated with people having those ideologies, regardless of how actively they'll be sharing them at that point.

That doesn't seem very controversial nor artificially manufactured.

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Bingewolf
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Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:19 pm 
 

Derigin wrote:
Who cares?

I'm getting kinda sick of Metalsuck's "shitty manufactured metal controversy" of the week. Just stop giving them attention.


I think a lot of people care... I care because I don't want to support NS artists. Horna fans care because their tour is getting blown up.

I also disagree that it's "manufactured controversy". The connections are real and can be tracked right here in the Archives. Which is why I also find it baffling that the focus is on such a relatively obscure band when the Alcest story would be so much bigger.

I find these stories and discussions far more interesting than "which Megadeath album is the best" threads. Thought it would be an interesting topic to discuss here but understand if others disagree.

PurpleDoom wrote:
It's just so bizarre to me to put all this focus on who and who doesn't have any kind of links whatsoever to NS when the bands in question typically have no racist lyrics and their fanbase is comprised of normal people. Are they bored from the lack of actual NSBM bands coming over from Europe to tour and need some other excuse to harass venues? Like, it would be one thing if the music had an explicitly NS message and attracted mainly right-wing nutjobs, but that's simply not the case for pretty much all of the bands Metalsucks has decided to start a shitshow over in the past however many years. There's just nothing to gain from doing this.


I think it's in response to the general rise of nationalism across the globe. As nationalism continues to rise, the opposition will continue to rise as well. What is the tipping point? Who knows... but it certainly seems that both sides are escalating things and both sides are growing rapidly.

Also, I think there is a disproportionate presence in black metal than in other areas. For some reason, a lot of NS-types are into BM. It's actually quite shocking to me when I see news coverage on neo-nazi groups and guys are wearing black metal band shirts. For example, there's a lot of coverage on a group called Atomwaffen Division in the US now because they are an extremely violent NS terror group - and the leader of the group is often posing in BM shirts that mainstream people aren't going to recognize but metalheads do. To me, that's alarming. I don't want those types of people in my scene.

So I totally understand Horna fans' frustration over this - but I also personally understand the point of the article as I don't want to support anyone involved in NS movements or ideas.

As to why MS focuses on the bands that they do - I think it's more because these bands are bigger and more visible. Covering the NSBM scene is likely only giving it publicity to would-be fans since it's so niche. But warning fans about a band member who has ties to that scene is considered useful to some. That said, I still find it bizarre that, out of all of the bands to target, Horna was the one that got spotlighted. :lol:

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Derigin
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:23 pm 
 

It's not particularly problematic to do research. People do research all the time on others, and those connections can be easily found via MA. It's more the fact it's used for shock value, drawing conclusions from scant evidence and trying to paint it as something much more heinous and engrossing than it actually is which makes it "manufactured." Promoters doing their due diligence is great. Promoters basing their decisions off poorly-researched, exaggerated, slanderous articles... that kinda sucks for the band and fans.

I'd urge the same for everyone here, too. Think critically about what you read through articles like this. Do your own research, and come to your own conclusions.

I don't trust Metalsucks to do their own due diligence. They've proven countless times before that they can't be trusted to do so (and that it's against their clickbait mantra to do so), so don't give them the benefit of the doubt.
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Erosion of Humanity
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:28 pm 
 

Bingewolf wrote:
Derigin wrote:
Who cares?

I'm getting kinda sick of Metalsuck's "shitty manufactured metal controversy" of the week. Just stop giving them attention.


I think a lot of people care... I care because I don't want to support NS artists. Horna fans care because their tour is getting blown up.

I also disagree that it's "manufactured controversy". The connections are real and can be tracked right here in the Archives. Which is why I also find it baffling that the focus is on such a relatively obscure band when the Alcest story would be so much bigger.



Then don't support NS bands. Ain't that hard, let the rest of us enjoy things in peace. Metalsucks thrives on clickbait controversy and oft doesnt even fact check a damn thing they're posting. If I ate at the same restaurant as varg theyd call me a nazi supporter too. They're fucking cunts and there is plenty of bands actually spewing hate they could be going after. They wont because it doesnt sell. They aren't altruistic, they want site traffic. End of story.

They won't focus on Alcest because Alcest is pretty popular even outside the metal community. Nobody would actually care of bother with it if metalsucks went after them. It's easy to stir controversy, especially when outsiders dont understand our culture, when you take pot shots at a band with strong black metal imagery such as Horna.
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Auch
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:36 pm 
 

How is this poorly researched and slanderous though? Using just MA's own info, I could corroborate enough of MS's claims to feel that it's reasonable to say two members of Horna have strong ties to far right and white supremacist/nationalist bands and that it's good to call out those ties.

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Frank Booth
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:37 pm 
 

Lord_Jotun wrote:
Weren't Northern (formerly Cold Northern Vengeance) supposed to play with Horna at a handful of these shows? Their founding member is pretty vocal about his distaste for antifa and metalsucks on facebook, which definitely raises my suspicion.


Yeah, Paul's views are no secret around here. Everyone knows about his far-right sympathies, and associating with him and the rest of the NH Seacoast black metal scene (aside from Obsidian Tongue, who do not stand for that shit) is a good way to have people look at you funny. Northern is also way less ambiguous about their affiliations than CNV ever was, and while that scene has booked legit, apolitical bands (namely Negative Plane), having Northern on a bill or having a touring black metal bill hit the Chop Shop is a good way to make a lot of people (myself included) nope right the fuck out.

That being said, this is typical Ben Umanov disingenuous, autofellating clickbait trash. Leave it to MS to take something that is necessary to some degree (preventing far-right infiltration of legitimate scenes) and turning it into yet another opportunity to grandstand and beg for adulation. Horna has always been an apolitical band as a whole, and Ben is accomplishing nothing except giving the fashy crowd more ammo. That dude should just make like those old urban legends about Marilyn Manson and remove a pair of ribs so that he can blow himself, because that's basically all he does anyways.

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Derigin
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:47 pm 
 

Auch wrote:
How is this poorly researched and slanderous though? Using just MA's own info, I could corroborate enough of MS's claims to feel that it's reasonable to say two members of Horna have strong ties to far right and white supremacist/nationalist bands and that it's good to call out those ties.

When an article relies on what is essentially gossip with conclusions that can only be drawn through affiliation and guesswork, and which also numerously states or implies that it's unverified and perhaps unverifiable then you have a poorly researched and slanderous article. This article is one of those. Yes, there are grains of truth to it; you can use MA - for instance - to verify that so-and-so was in this or that band - sometimes years ago, by the way - and you might be able to find some statement and take it out of context to prove your point, but ultimately most of the "story" ends up relying on assumptions.

In many ways this isn't news, and the articles you find on Metalsucks would never pass or be accepted by most credible news organizations. They're that bad. The fact you'd be willing to accept that worries me more than the subject matter, because it tells me that all it takes for someone to take something at face value is a clickbait headline, a bunch of connections and assumptions from those connections that could make any conspiracy theorist out there blush, and a bunch of unverifiable crap with just enough of a seed of truth to it to make you second guess yourself. People bemoan the quality of the news these days, and how so-called news sites are so quick to jump on the sensationalist bandwagon, and here's an example why.
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Bingewolf
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:06 pm 
 

It seems like the backlash in this thread is anti-MetalSucks rather than any actual critique of what they posted. As Auch posted, the article is easily fact-checkable right here on M-A and what is written is true.

This also isn't a case of someone being in a band years ago, where you could make an argument that they made a stupid choice and is no longer involved. According to the Archives, Finnentum released a new album on March 11 (two weeks ago) and it came out on White Wolf Productions, which is also connected to NSBM and releases NSBM bands regularly.

Don't get me wrong, MetalSucks is also annoying and, over the years, the site has also gone downhill in terms of their general metal coverage. However, when a big media outlet in the scene is posting stuff like this, it is useful. I also disagree that they would be ignored if they posted about Alcest. Alcest is 'bigger' in terms of name value but is, in no way, a "major" band that would be given a pass for Niege's past.


Derigin wrote:
It's not particularly problematic to do research. People do research all the time on others, and those connections can be easily found via MA. It's more the fact it's used for shock value, drawing conclusions from scant evidence and trying to paint it as something much more heinous and engrossing than it actually is which makes it "manufactured." Promoters doing their due diligence is great. Promoters basing their decisions off poorly-researched, exaggerated, slanderous articles... that kinda sucks for the band and fans.

I'd urge the same for everyone here, too. Think critically about what you read through articles like this. Do your own research, and come to your own conclusions.

I don't trust Metalsucks to do their own due diligence. They've proven countless times before that they can't be trusted to do so (and that it's against their clickbait mantra to do so), so don't give them the benefit of the doubt.


This makes much more sense to me, so thank you for clarifying. I tend to agree with what you said here - but I also didn't just give MS the benefit of the doubt. I pulled up M-A when I read the story and looked up what was being said. And it checked out.

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Auch
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:17 pm 
 

Derigin wrote:
Auch wrote:
How is this poorly researched and slanderous though? Using just MA's own info, I could corroborate enough of MS's claims to feel that it's reasonable to say two members of Horna have strong ties to far right and white supremacist/nationalist bands and that it's good to call out those ties.

When an article relies on what is essentially gossip with conclusions that can only be drawn through affiliation and guesswork, and which also numerously states or implies that it's unverified and perhaps unverifiable then you have a poorly researched and slanderous article. This article is one of those. Yes, there are grains of truth to it; you can use MA - for instance - to verify that so-and-so was in this or that band - sometimes years ago, by the way - and you might be able to find some statement and take it out of context to prove your point, but ultimately most of the "story" ends up relying on assumptions.

In many ways this isn't news, and the articles you find on Metalsucks would never pass or be accepted by most credible news organizations. They're that bad. The fact you'd be willing to accept that worries me more than the subject matter, because it tells me that all it takes for someone to take something at face value is a clickbait headline, a bunch of connections and assumptions from those connections that could make any conspiracy theorist out there blush, and a bunch of unverifiable crap with just enough of a seed of truth to it to make you second guess yourself. People bemoan the quality of the news these days, and how so-called news sites are so quick to jump on the sensationalist bandwagon, and here's an example why.


Like Bingewolf said, this seems to be mostly anti-MS. Maybe it's because I don't read MS often or place much relevance to them that I don't think it's cataclysmic what they're saying or doing.

It is important to note though that there's only one section that is flagged as unverified and it's a summary of an WIener Zeitung article.

I also don't think that the claims are gossip-y or relying too strongly on assumptions. What would be compelling evidence for you Derigin? Are you skeptical until Horna/Spellgoth/Shatraug come out and declare themselves pro-NS/far right/fascist?

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Derigin
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:19 pm 
 

I mean, I could go through point by point and make the case as to how it's a poorly researched article that relies heavily on affiliations, assumptions and essentially unverifiable information... but I'd just be reiterating what I said in the post I made above yours, Bingewolf. There's enough circumstantial evidence that you could draw your own inferences based on whatever seeds of truth are in the article, but it's hardly damning on Horna as a band, and it certainly isn't the smoking gun or the "aha" moment the article makes it out to be. The article tries to make it a point of painting Horna as this awful, horrible NS band on the same scale as Peste Noire. In reality, the only thing the article can verify is that someone from the band was in a band that released a dubiously titled album 13 years ago. Everything else is just guesswork or relies on you making assumptions about what actually is going on, and even in this case it's also just drawing conclusions from unverifiable information.

EDIT: In all honesty, Auch, I think people would've already figured out Horna was this pro-NS/far right/fascist band in the 26 years that the band has existed, and that it doesn't take a sensationalist clickbait article from 2019 to prove that point. I'd be more certain one way or another if there is a proven, consistent track record with these accusations; that nothing has to be left to assumption or guesswork. This is also just part of my nature, too. I work on a site, MA, that values as much as possible having verifiable information, and I am critical of other sites or sources that don't step up to the same rigorous levels of research that we do and that I do for a living offline, too. It really shouldn't be too hard to prove definitively that something is what it is. It's much harder to prove something fits what you want it to be, because in those cases - as I'd argue is the case for every clickbait article - there just isn't enough verifiable evidence to make a case. And thus the authors of such articles rely on you making the same conclusions that they do based on what is essentially a web of unverifiable and unfalsifiable assumptions. This is, unsurprisingly, the exact same process that conspiracy theorists use in proving their theories, so I guess I don't have much faith in them.
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Frank Booth
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:36 pm 
 

I'll believe that Horna is either an NS band or way too comfortable with directly tying themselves to NS circles when they insert overt dogwhistles in their music or merchandise, play racist/fascist bills, sign to NSBM labels, tour or collaborate with NSBM bands, or otherwise do something with absolutely zero plausible deniability that they know or should know would alienate most of their fanbase and kill off any chance of ever being able to play a respectable bill again. Until then, as far as I'm concerned, they're an apolitical band with some members who have really stupid and terrible beliefs.

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PurpleDoom
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:42 pm 
 

Bingewolf wrote:
I think it's in response to the general rise of nationalism across the globe. As nationalism continues to rise, the opposition will continue to rise as well. What is the tipping point? Who knows... but it certainly seems that both sides are escalating things and both sides are growing rapidly.

Also, I think there is a disproportionate presence in black metal than in other areas. For some reason, a lot of NS-types are into BM. It's actually quite shocking to me when I see news coverage on neo-nazi groups and guys are wearing black metal band shirts. For example, there's a lot of coverage on a group called Atomwaffen Division in the US now because they are an extremely violent NS terror group - and the leader of the group is often posing in BM shirts that mainstream people aren't going to recognize but metalheads do. To me, that's alarming. I don't want those types of people in my scene.

So I totally understand Horna fans' frustration over this - but I also personally understand the point of the article as I don't want to support anyone involved in NS movements or ideas.

As to why MS focuses on the bands that they do - I think it's more because these bands are bigger and more visible. Covering the NSBM scene is likely only giving it publicity to would-be fans since it's so niche. But warning fans about a band member who has ties to that scene is considered useful to some. That said, I still find it bizarre that, out of all of the bands to target, Horna was the one that got spotlighted. :lol:

I think all of your points are legitimate, though I think there's not really much that can be done about unpleasant types being fans of our preferred genre (and the same goes for any other genre). My frustration mostly comes when these sorts of articles surface and some venues end up cancelling not of their own choice but because the antifa types come out and threaten them, which IIRC happened to Taake at the very least. I do think the basic idea of pointing out connections to NS ideology and groups has some merit, but if your response is anything beyond making personal choices (and I'd consider a promoter deciding to cancel after discovering these ties a personal choice) I think you end up doing more harm than good. The issue, I guess, is less with the reporting itself and more how it's being reported and who it's being reported to. I don't think many people here trust the Metalsucks writers or their readers to respond appropriately to this.

Regarding Neige, that Peste Noire demo is nearly 20 years old and I'm sure he could quickly and convincingly disavow any sympathies for Famine's ideology. Old Silver Key I could also easily see being a long-distance collaboration in which politics never entered the conversation. That's another thing it comes down to, and what I think some others in this thread are getting at when they say the article isn't sufficiently corroborated - what assumptions are you or aren't you willing to make when you see that two people have played together in an ideologically extreme band? In some cases it can be pretty safely guessed that the ideology is shared among all members of the band, in other cases I don't think it's so clear. I think the passage of time sets the early Peste Noire lineup firmly in the latter category, what with Famine repeatedly shooting himself in the face and Neige doing nothing whatsoever to suggest he has NS sympathies.

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Auch
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:52 pm 
 

I guess we’ve been having a different conversation then because I’m not saying Horna is a NS band (by which I mean their lyrics are NS or the band was founded to spread NS beliefs) and didn’t take the article to say that about Horna as an entirety. I think it did it’s job of showing the ties of two members of Horna with NSBM, ties that I then found compelling evidence for here on MA and in interviews with people like Famine, etc., and I think it’s reasonable to call into question Horna for having those members and have no problem with businesses cancelling shows with those members present, regardless of how explicitly NS they music they’ll be playing is or isn’t.

To me, having pro-fascist/NS beliefs in this day and age can’t and shouldn’t be divorced from other aspects of your life (and that’s especially true for music, where I don’t see how you can say well this is my NS project and this is my non-NS project).

EDIT: I do agree with PurpleDoom (whose post was posted while I was writing the above) and I do think that there is often people not doing enough research into this stuff. I just think that, for my reasons above, there is sufficient evidence in this case to be wary of supporting these members and by extension Horna as a whole and don't blame venues for cancelling shows, even if it's because of outside pressure.

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Gravetemplar
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Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:20 pm 
 

Erosion of Humanity wrote:
Bingewolf wrote:
Derigin wrote:
Who cares?

I'm getting kinda sick of Metalsuck's "shitty manufactured metal controversy" of the week. Just stop giving them attention.


I think a lot of people care... I care because I don't want to support NS artists. Horna fans care because their tour is getting blown up.

I also disagree that it's "manufactured controversy". The connections are real and can be tracked right here in the Archives. Which is why I also find it baffling that the focus is on such a relatively obscure band when the Alcest story would be so much bigger.


Then don't support NS bands. Ain't that hard, let the rest of us enjoy things in peace.

Yes! Let us enjoy national sotialism, racism and bigotry in peace!

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Derigin
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:26 pm 
 

That was obviously not his point, Gravetemplar.

Please avoid quoting things out of context.
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Gravetemplar
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Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
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Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:38 pm 
 

Derigin wrote:
That was obviously not his point, Gravetemplar.

Please avoid quoting things out of context.

I'm sorry but no, that was exactly his point. That's the problem here, you can't justify this kind of stuff by saying "there are bigger bands to go for" (and I don't think the "they are just cunts" part helps either). If you are going to listen to bands with obvious ties to NSBM at least own it and cut the crap. He specifically wrote "let the rest of us enjoy things in peace" when a band of well known nazis had to cancel some shows because of their shitty ideology.

Frank Booth wrote:
I'll believe that Horna is either an NS band or way too comfortable with directly tying themselves to NS circles when they insert overt dogwhistles in their music or merchandise, play racist/fascist bills, sign to NSBM labels, tour or collaborate with NSBM bands, or otherwise do something with absolutely zero plausible deniability that they know or should know would alienate most of their fanbase and kill off any chance of ever being able to play a respectable bill again. Until then, as far as I'm concerned, they're an apolitical band with some members who have really stupid and terrible beliefs.

They are signed to World Terror Committee, the label of the guy from Grand Belial's Key and Absurd. World Terror Committee has released plenty of NSBM material and was banned from Paypal for doing so if I'm correct. They have a split with Peste Noire too. Plus all the other stuff that's already been mentioned. The connection is obvious, you just don't want to see it.

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Methuen
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:42 pm 
 

Infact, deleted, going to eat some popcorn & watch you guys at it instead.
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Bingewolf
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:46 pm 
 

Derigin wrote:
I mean, I could go through point by point and make the case as to how it's a poorly researched article that relies heavily on affiliations, assumptions and essentially unverifiable information... but I'd just be reiterating what I said in the post I made above yours, Bingewolf. There's enough circumstantial evidence that you could draw your own inferences based on whatever seeds of truth are in the article, but it's hardly damning on Horna as a band, and it certainly isn't the smoking gun or the "aha" moment the article makes it out to be. The article tries to make it a point of painting Horna as this awful, horrible NS band on the same scale as Peste Noire. In reality, the only thing the article can verify is that someone from the band was in a band that released a dubiously titled album 13 years ago. Everything else is just guesswork or relies on you making assumptions about what actually is going on, and even in this case it's also just drawing conclusions from unverifiable information.


I think we are having different conversations. I wasn't saying Horna is a NSBM band and I didn't take that from the article either. The article was pointing out that there are definitely two NS members in the band and lays out their connections to that movement. To me this is useful because, regardless of what the band is singing about, I don't want to give nazis money or support in any form.

The article also touches on the fact that Shatraug has had at least to NSBM projects (one still active), released NSBM bands on his label and that Spellgoth is a member of both Horna and Peste Noire. I think these are pretty relevant facts for people to consider - and are not drawn from conclusions.

Frank Booth wrote:
I'll believe that Horna is either an NS band or way too comfortable with directly tying themselves to NS circles when they insert overt dogwhistles in their music or merchandise, play racist/fascist bills, sign to NSBM labels, tour or collaborate with NSBM bands, or otherwise do something with absolutely zero plausible deniability that they know or should know would alienate most of their fanbase and kill off any chance of ever being able to play a respectable bill again. Until then, as far as I'm concerned, they're an apolitical band with some members who have really stupid and terrible beliefs.


So having two NSBM musicians in the band isn't enough but collaborating with another NSBM band is? I mean, they are "collaborating" with the two NSBM artists who are in the band aren't they? Oh, and they are signed to World Terror Committee...

PurpleDoom wrote:
I think all of your points are legitimate, though I think there's not really much that can be done about unpleasant types being fans of our preferred genre (and the same goes for any other genre). My frustration mostly comes when these sorts of articles surface and some venues end up cancelling not of their own choice but because the antifa types come out and threaten them, which IIRC happened to Taake at the very least. I do think the basic idea of pointing out connections to NS ideology and groups has some merit, but if your response is anything beyond making personal choices (and I'd consider a promoter deciding to cancel after discovering these ties a personal choice) I think you end up doing more harm than good. The issue, I guess, is less with the reporting itself and more how it's being reported and who it's being reported to. I don't think many people here trust the Metalsucks writers or their readers to respond appropriately to this.

Regarding Neige, that Peste Noire demo is nearly 20 years old and I'm sure he could quickly and convincingly disavow any sympathies for Famine's ideology. Old Silver Key I could also easily see being a long-distance collaboration in which politics never entered the conversation. That's another thing it comes down to, and what I think some others in this thread are getting at when they say the article isn't sufficiently corroborated - what assumptions are you or aren't you willing to make when you see that two people have played together in an ideologically extreme band? In some cases it can be pretty safely guessed that the ideology is shared among all members of the band, in other cases I don't think it's so clear. I think the passage of time sets the early Peste Noire lineup firmly in the latter category, what with Famine repeatedly shooting himself in the face and Neige doing nothing whatsoever to suggest he has NS sympathies.


I totally understand your point too. However, the rise of nationalism that I mentioned has led to many racists/fascists to be more emboldened and make their presence felt publicly. This means that antifascists take a more bold approach too. You can't have one without the other. Sure, fascists can go out and make their presence felt but don't expect antifascists to sit at home and be quiet, if that makes sense?

And regarding Neige, you definitely have a point. However, it's kind of hard to plead ignorance to what you were recording when the album is called "Aryan Supremacy" and features a song of the same name along with a song called "The Death Camps". I mean, he was in the band for 5 years and even if you give him one pass for "Aryan Supremacy," can you give him a pass for this too: https://www.metal-archives.com/albums/Peste_Noire/Macabre_transcendance.../28698

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ambientsorrow
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Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:25 am
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:48 pm 
 

Bingewolf wrote:
Derigin wrote:
Who cares?

I'm getting kinda sick of Metalsuck's "shitty manufactured metal controversy" of the week. Just stop giving them attention.


I think a lot of people care... I care because I don't want to support NS artists. Horna fans care because their tour is getting blown up.

I also disagree that it's "manufactured controversy". The connections are real and can be tracked right here in the Archives. Which is why I also find it baffling that the focus is on such a relatively obscure band when the Alcest story would be so much bigger.


One of your other posts said that Portal - Seepia is one of your favourite Death Metal albums. You do know they done a split with Blood of Kingu, right? Roman Saenko was part of that group, who was also part of Hate Forest that had the member Alzeth at one point, once of Nokturnal Mortum, where some of the members once had a project called Aryan Terrorism. The connections are real, man!

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cultofkraken
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:53 pm 
 

Better watch out, those bands that have existed for almost 3 decades will suddenly music you to death.
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Derigin
The Mountain Man

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:53 pm 
 

Since that seems to be the main point of evidence, I'm actually kinda curious what makes you fellas think that Shatraug's side project Finnentum is blatantly NSBM? That seems to be the crux of the article's argument and yet it even says to draw your own conclusions. Seems to me just to be a band with some nationalist themes? Is that now tantamount to being a Nazi or Nazi sympathizer?
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Bingewolf
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:02 pm 
 

Derigin wrote:
Since that seems to be the main point of evidence, I'm actually kinda curious what makes you fellas think that Shatraug's side project Finnentum is blatantly NSBM? That seems to be the crux of the article's argument and yet it even says to draw your own conclusions. Seems to me just to be a band with some nationalist themes? Is that now tantamount to being a Nazi or Nazi sympathizer?


From the archives...

https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Blutschrei/65850
Blutschrei
Lyrical themes: War, Supremacy, Racialism
"The project only lasted for one album, but Shatraug continued the basic ideas with Finnentum."

https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Finnentum/3540263230
Finnentum
Lyrical themes: Nature, Nationalism
"This band is the continuation of Blutschrei."

Also, as mentioned previously, the new Finnentum came out 2 weeks ago on White Wolf Productions, a known NSBM label...
https://www.metal-archives.com/albums/Finnentum/Vapauden_laulu/767903

So yes, I will take that as enough evidence when paired with everything else being discussed.

EDIT: It seems like each time someone explains the actual evidence that is there, it is not addressed and merely moved on to another topic that you investigative journalists want to be proven... So let's recap quickly:
- Spellgoth is an active member of Peste Noire.
- Shatraug has two "nationalist" projects.
- Shatraug released NSBM records on his label.
- Horna is currently signed to the label founded by GBK.

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Third_of_the_Storms
Stupid

Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:14 pm
Posts: 1040
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:06 pm 
 

Can't believe I was unaware of Finnentum until now, great stuff!

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Auch
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:40 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:08 pm 
 

Bingewolf says it, but also yes - I think that a lot of nationalists are Nazis/fascists or NS/fascist sympathizers. History has borne that out pretty consistently and 'nationalism' (at least in English) has a very widely understood subtext. As such, it's reasonable in my mind that anyone proclaiming themselves as nationalists or saying that they are influenced by nationalist thought (versus national history or patriotism) should be met with some level of skepticism.

EDIT: While I can't find Finnentum's lyrics anywhere, aside from the 'nationalism' tag, it could be seen as inoffensive and I would be willing to give it the benefit of the doubt if it weren't for all of the other details and if it wasn't described as a continuation of Blutschrei, whose racist leanings are fairly explicit across their album title and lyrics:
https://www.metal-archives.com/albums/Blutschrei/The_Voice_of_Forbidden_Pride/117424


Last edited by Auch on Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ambientsorrow
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Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:25 am
Posts: 208
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:23 pm 
 

Bingewolf wrote:
Derigin wrote:
Since that seems to be the main point of evidence, I'm actually kinda curious what makes you fellas think that Shatraug's side project Finnentum is blatantly NSBM? That seems to be the crux of the article's argument and yet it even says to draw your own conclusions. Seems to me just to be a band with some nationalist themes? Is that now tantamount to being a Nazi or Nazi sympathizer?


From the archives...

https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Blutschrei/65850
Blutschrei
Lyrical themes: War, Supremacy, Racialism
"The project only lasted for one album, but Shatraug continued the basic ideas with Finnentum."

https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Finnentum/3540263230
Finnentum
Lyrical themes: Nature, Nationalism
"This band is the continuation of Blutschrei."

Also, as mentioned previously, the new Finnentum came out 2 weeks ago on White Wolf Productions, a known NSBM label...
https://www.metal-archives.com/albums/Finnentum/Vapauden_laulu/767903

So yes, I will take that as enough evidence when paired with everything else being discussed.

EDIT: It seems like each time someone explains the actual evidence that is there, it is not addressed and merely moved on to another topic that you investigative journalists want to be proven... So let's recap quickly:
- Spellgoth is an active member of Peste Noire.
- Shatraug has two "nationalist" projects.
- Shatraug released NSBM records on his label.
- Horna is currently signed to the label founded by GBK.


You should apply to work for MetalSucks with that incredible investigative work. You'd fit right in over there, too.

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PurpleDoom
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Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:39 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:28 pm 
 

Quote:
Sure, fascists can go out and make their presence felt but don't expect antifascists to sit at home and be quiet, if that makes sense?

Well, Horna's not a fascist band, is it? I'd have far more sympathy for that sort of behavior if the band in question was, say, Absurd or something, but here we just have a typical black metal band spouting typical trite black metal lyrics. Regardless of that, it's a difference in approach. If one feels the need to oppose the band more openly, they are free to do so; I'm not asking the many people who justifiably object to this sort of stuff to just sit back and let it happen. What I am objecting to is the very specific act of a small group shutting down concerts by threat of force. Protesting outside the venue, bringing the issue to more people's attention, trying to convince the promoter to cancel the show, all fair game - often it even does the trick. But if the only tool you think you have left is force, you had better choose your targets carefully, and I don't think Horna or Taake or whoever are good choices. It's extraordinarily rare for the sort of band that would ethically justify that level of action to make it over here at all.

Quote:
And regarding Neige, you definitely have a point. However, it's kind of hard to plead ignorance to what you were recording when the album is called "Aryan Supremacy" and features a song of the same name along with a song called "The Death Camps". I mean, he was in the band for 5 years and even if you give him one pass for "Aryan Supremacy," can you give him a pass for this too: https://www.metal-archives.com/albums/P ... e.../28698

I wasn't meaning to say he was ignorant of the lyrics so much as he wasn't necessarily wholeheartedly endorsing them simply by playing in the band. No arguing that it's a major red flag, but in the absence of other supporting evidence over the course of 15+ years, I think we can safely assume that he is not NS now and some people may be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for back then as well. For what it's worth, his MA page has a link to what's supposed to be a German interview in which he explicitly distances himself from his Peste Noire stint and disavows far-right ideology, though the link is broken (I'll file a report to see if someone can get that fixed...)

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cultofkraken
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:18 am
Posts: 2034
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:29 pm 
 

Bingewolf wrote:
Derigin wrote:
Since that seems to be the main point of evidence, I'm actually kinda curious what makes you fellas think that Shatraug's side project Finnentum is blatantly NSBM? That seems to be the crux of the article's argument and yet it even says to draw your own conclusions. Seems to me just to be a band with some nationalist themes? Is that now tantamount to being a Nazi or Nazi sympathizer?


From the archives...

https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Blutschrei/65850
Blutschrei
Lyrical themes: War, Supremacy, Racialism
"The project only lasted for one album, but Shatraug continued the basic ideas with Finnentum."

https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Finnentum/3540263230
Finnentum
Lyrical themes: Nature, Nationalism
"This band is the continuation of Blutschrei."

Also, as mentioned previously, the new Finnentum came out 2 weeks ago on White Wolf Productions, a known NSBM label...
https://www.metal-archives.com/albums/Finnentum/Vapauden_laulu/767903

So yes, I will take that as enough evidence when paired with everything else being discussed.

EDIT: It seems like each time someone explains the actual evidence that is there, it is not addressed and merely moved on to another topic that you investigative journalists want to be proven... So let's recap quickly:
- Spellgoth is an active member of Peste Noire.
- Shatraug has two "nationalist" projects.
- Shatraug released NSBM records on his label.
- Horna is currently signed to the label founded by GBK.


Well technically if you’re going to use Finnentum as evidence as being the continuation of Blutschrei and only one is active, then I wouldn’t call it two projects, out of the 40 plus he has or what have you. Also nationalism and racialism obviously aren’t the same thing. Finnish Natiionalism seems to be fairly prevalent in a lot of Finnish bands... hell even Impaled Nazarene seem to show a lot of National pride don’t they?

Also that WTC label, well the majority of bands on there are not NS, and the ones you CAN make an argument are... at their worst anti-Semitic, like GBK (in a comedicly blasphemous way I personally found hard to take seriously). You better hope you don’t like Shaarimoth because they are on that label too.

I fucking hate nazism, but I’m still not seeing anything that sticks once you really look into it. Blutschrei is the most questionable thing I can see but that release is like 13 years old and it looks to me like his views shifted and he changed the project to better reflect something he wished to convey. However again it’s all interpretation and speculation.
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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:41 pm 
 

To be honest those Blutschrei lyrics are 100% white supremacist shit. But the album is 13 years old, so perhaps the guy's views changed. MS definitely should have at least asked for a statement on that regard. But if those are still his views... whatever, no sympathy. :shrug:

Both things can be true at once: that MS sucks, and that some guy is a nazi POS (even if his band isn't).
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Bingewolf
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Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:53 pm 
 

PurpleDoom wrote:
Well, Horna's not a fascist band, is it? I'd have far more sympathy for that sort of behavior if the band in question was, say, Absurd or something, but here we just have a typical black metal band spouting typical trite black metal lyrics. Regardless of that, it's a difference in approach. If one feels the need to oppose the band more openly, they are free to do so; I'm not asking the many people who justifiably object to this sort of stuff to just sit back and let it happen. What I am objecting to is the very specific act of a small group shutting down concerts by threat of force. Protesting outside the venue, bringing the issue to more people's attention, trying to convince the promoter to cancel the show, all fair game - often it even does the trick. But if the only tool you think you have left is force, you had better choose your targets carefully, and I don't think Horna or Taake or whoever are good choices. It's extraordinarily rare for the sort of band that would ethically justify that level of action to make it over here at all.

I wasn't meaning to say he was ignorant of the lyrics so much as he wasn't necessarily wholeheartedly endorsing them simply by playing in the band. No arguing that it's a major red flag, but in the absence of other supporting evidence over the course of 15+ years, I think we can safely assume that he is not NS now and some people may be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for back then as well. For what it's worth, his MA page has a link to what's supposed to be a German interview in which he explicitly distances himself from his Peste Noire stint and disavows far-right ideology, though the link is broken (I'll file a report to see if someone can get that fixed...)


Yeah, I saw the guy from Absurd had his own trouble this past week :lol: ... But I agree, acts of force should be a last resort in any cause. I feel like people jump to force too quickly and, often, for the wrong reasons. To me, education and facts are the important things.

In terms of Neige, you are also probably right... I'm sure he would be remorseful and all that. I'd love to see the interview though. The thing that is strange to me is how does one just get mixed up in that in the first place? Curious of his story...

cultofkraken wrote:
Well technically if you’re going to use Finnentum as evidence as being the continuation of Blutschrei and only one is active, then I wouldn’t call it two projects, out of the 40 plus he has or what have you. Also nationalism and racialism obviously aren’t the same thing. Finnish Natiionalism seems to be fairly prevalent in a lot of Finnish bands... hell even Impaled Nazarene seem to show a lot of National pride don’t they?

Also that WTC label, well the majority of bands on there are not NS, and the ones you CAN make an argument are... at their worst anti-Semitic, like GBK (in a comedicly blasphemous way I personally found hard to take seriously). You better hope you don’t like Shaarimoth because they are on that label too.

I fucking hate nazism, but I’m still not seeing anything that sticks once you really look into it. Blutschrei is the most questionable thing I can see but that release is like 13 years old and it looks to me like his views shifted and he changed the project to better reflect something he wished to convey. However again it’s all interpretation and speculation.


I don't understand how you can look at everything laid out in this thread (including a new release from 2 weeks ago on an NSBM label) and say his views changed. Or the fact that Spellgoth is in both Horna and Peste Noire right now.

You are correct that nationalism and racism are two separate things but you also have to admit that they are very closely tied together. Not every nationalist I've encountered is a racist but damn sure every racist is a nationalist.

Also "at their worst anti-Semitic" is not a great qualifier for the bands on WTC... Just my two cents.

I think that the biggest problem with this situation and the other previous cases is that large parts of the scene don't want to admit that there are a lot of nazis amongst us. When we are confronted with uncomfortable truths, we shouldn't ignore them. All of the stuff posted here can be fact-checked instantly, right here on this site. It's strange to look at everything that was posted and act like you don't see the connections. It's not interpretation or speculation when it's right there for everyone to review.

And Morrigan, you are correct! I totally understand people who don't like MS - but those who are tossing out all of the evidence because they hate MS seem to be missing the point...

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MorbidEngel
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:57 pm 
 

Are you getting paid to defend MS or something?
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