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Electric Death
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed May 13, 2015 4:38 pm
Posts: 144
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:31 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
I can't really agree on the mentions of Scream Bloody Gore, they're one of the few bands where I prefer the more "fluffy" later material, the first two records are just a chore with their playing each simple part a trillion times into the ground.


Glad to see another person on the same page as me. I'd take Crystal Mountain over any other track on Scream Bloody Gore anytime.

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Runko
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:38 pm
Posts: 665
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:30 pm 
 

Bathory
Iron Maiden
Judas Priest
Death
Autopsy

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Napalm_Satan
Ever-Opening Flower

Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2015 4:27 pm
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Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:37 pm 
 

I'll never understand those that like Death's old stuff but don't like Massacre's first.

Seconding Celtic Frost, everything after To Mega Therion ranges from weak to trash.
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Metal_Jaw
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:00 pm 
 

Crimson Glory. "Transcendence" is hardly bad but pretty overrated and none of the songs on that album hold a candle for vigor, staying power and atmosphere that songs from the debut like "Dragon Lady", "Azrael" and "Lost Reflection" have.

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fourrobert13
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:01 pm 
 

Runko wrote:
Bathory
Iron Maiden
Judas Priest
Death
Autopsy

Not sure I would have Maiden and Priest in here. While their debuts are excellent, IMO the albums that came after were much better.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:02 pm 
 

Metal_Jaw wrote:
Crimson Glory. "Transcendence" is hardly bad but pretty overrated and none of the songs on that album hold a candle for vigor, staying power and atmosphere that songs from the debut like "Dragon Lady", "Azrael" and "Lost Reflection" have.


Totally disagree. You named some amazing songs on the debut but I think Transcendence is a more consistent album and every song is just as good as those ones.
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~Guest 282118
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
Posts: 8300
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:06 pm 
 

Oi, yeah. I actually prefer the debut over Transcendence (Burning Bridges plods a bit and the titletrack feels a tad unfinished, while the debut has basically no filler), but that's kinda like saying that I'd rather have sex with Scarlett Johansson than with a slightly less hot version of Scarlett Johansson. I mean... It's still ScarJo, ya know?

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brainbomb
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:08 pm
Posts: 193
Location: Boston
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:07 pm 
 

Judas Priest?

Rocka Rolla is better than Sad Wings of Destiny? Are we sure about this?

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HamburgerBoy
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:40 am
Posts: 1710
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:10 pm 
 

Almost easier to name ones that didn't. Candlemass is probably the biggest case of this for me; absolutely flawless debut album that defined a sound, followed by a leftovers album/sophomore slump which still manages to be quite good only because of how far they'd have to fall for it to not be, followed by one of the most uninspired albums of the 80s from a big-name act, followed by another leftovers album, followed by two decades of revolving door vocalists and more retreading plus a couple mediocre experiments.

droneriot wrote:
I can't really agree on the mentions of Scream Bloody Gore, they're one of the few bands where I prefer the more "fluffy" later material, the first two records are just a chore with their playing each simple part a trillion times into the ground.


That sounds like 91-93 era Death to me.


Last edited by HamburgerBoy on Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:11 pm 
 

While just listing band names is something that is discouraged, I think in most cases in this thread it's self-explanatory. Judas Priest however, I'd really love to hear the explanation for that choice. Rocka Rolla is cool and all, but how it is the album they never topped, I can't quite wrap my head around that.
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Napalm_Satan
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:13 pm 
 

A big nope to Candlemass. The three albums with Messiah that follow crush Epicus in every way.

A lot of old DM bands fit this bill - Dismember, Entombed, Obituary, Morbid Angel, Grave and Unleashed all immediately come to mind, even if they made good to great things afterwards.

I'd say Dissection and Sacramentum never did better than their first albums either.
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Tanuki
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:36 pm
Posts: 425
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:23 pm 
 

Napalm_Satan wrote:
I'll never understand those that like Death's old stuff but don't like Massacre's first.

Very good point. I'd guess it's a loyalty 'Coke Vs Pepsi' thing, but I've never bought into that.

And yeah, I'd say Judas Priest is the opposite, I'd even take Turbo over Rocka Rolla

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traxan
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:52 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:24 pm 
 

Aldious. Years later I still can't believe "Deep Exceed" is a debut album.

I also love Shadow's debut but they only made two albums, and the second was definitely a step down from the first.

Could argue Arch Enemy. Burning Bridges was a monster and I never got into Angela's singing.

On the hard rock side, definitely Pearl Jam. Success ruined them.

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IanThrash
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:56 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:11 pm 
 

Such weird choices in this thread. Never though I'd see someone picking "Morbid Visions" over "Beneath the Remains". Sepultura's debut, while fun and full of energy, is obliterated by the sheer perfection of their third album. A timeless masterpiece.
Droping names like Bathory, Judas Priest and Iron Maiden feels almost like a joke, but to each his own.

"Possessed by Fire" is one of my all time favorite Thrash Metal albums. It's catchy, fierce and youthful. I can't say the same about the rest of Exumer's catalog which goes from decent to extremely mediocre.

Even though I really like "Unquestionable Presence", "Piece of Time" is by far my favorite Atheist album. It feels more focused and has a nice raw edge that makes the music more intense.
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Norrmania
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Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:42 am
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:23 pm 
 

fourrobert13 wrote:
Runko wrote:
Bathory
Iron Maiden
Judas Priest
Death
Autopsy

Not sure I would have Maiden and Priest in here. While their debuts are excellent, IMO the albums that came after were much better.


Or even Bathory ffs. Quorthon was putting out consistently top tier stuff basically until the mid-90s. Bathory is fucking great but I would never be able to claim definitively that I love it better than Blood Fire Death, Under the Sign of the Black Mark or The Return... for that matter. Those albums are fairly neck and neck for me. Bathory just comes off as a weird mention to me.

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severzhavnost
Something Stupid

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:40 pm 
 

Yeah... I could understand putting Bathory on this list if you prefer the primitive black metal to anything else that came later. But even then, pretty hard to call The Return a noticeable letdown compared to the debut.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:45 pm 
 

I can understand it as well, it would be a preference in style, kind of how Bolt Thrower's debut is my favourite of theirs. The others make perfect sense (though I don't agree with them all), it's just the Judas Priest mention that's... strange.
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TrooperEd
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:52 pm 
 

Saying Judas Priest never topped Rocka Rolla is the most hipster shit I've ever heard in my life.
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fourrobert13
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:58 pm 
 

I'm still shocked he said Maiden. Number of the Beast was clearly better than the debut, as well as everything up to Seventh Son of a Seventh Son IMO. The debut was good, but only had a few good songs. Killers was the same way IMO.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:07 pm 
 

Huh? Number of the Beast of all albums? That's the most inconsistent of their classic first four - that's the one that was good but only had a few good songs. The debut is definitely all the way up there, classic through and through.
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fourrobert13
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:15 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
Huh? Number of the Beast of all albums? That's the most inconsistent of their classic first four - that's the one that was good but only had a few good songs. The debut is definitely all the way up there, classic through and through.

It's more consistent than the first two IMO. That's where the problem is with threads like these. Not everyone is going to agree on the same thing.
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yuricane
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:28 pm 
 

Sacred Reich
Entombed
Anathema
Godflesh
Mayhem
Autopsy
High On Fire

And many many more.

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Amber Gray
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:52 pm 
 

For non-metal, Gang of Four is a pretty great example. Entertainment! is untouchable.

Decapitated's first album blew me away in just the best and most brutal fashion when I first heard it. The second comes closest among their other albums, but Winds of Creation has an organic rawness and energy that remains unmatched.
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Oxenkiller
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:39 pm 
 

I would name a couple of late 1980's speed/thrash bands, Vio-lence and Death Angel. Vio-lence's second one was okay, but then they sort of went groove/thrash and eventually morphed into the mediocre (at best) Machine head. Death Angel tried to experiment with different styles (hard rock, progressive rock, punkish alternative rock, some acoustic stuff, funk, etc) on their second and third albums, with mixed results- After recording a blisteringly awesome thrash masterpiece for their debut. Their re-union era stuff is okay but I don't think it's quite as good as the "Ultra Violence" material.

I would NOT name Candlemass (I think their 2005 album is my favorate, actually, although their first two are certainly pretty good.) or Iron Maiden of Judas Priest. I mean, if you like their debut albums, that's cool; I do too, but I think Maiden and Priest didnt' really "nail it" until "Number of the Beast" or "Screaming for Vengeance" respectively.

Death- well, I like the crushing brutality of their first two albums better than their later stuff but I'm certainly not gonna knock the newer stuff.

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narsilianshard
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:29 pm 
 

metalmastersmadness wrote:
I may get crucified for this, but for me it's Slayer.
Show No Mercy is my favorite Slayer record. Reign In Blood is a close second, but I still take the debut over all.

This is the correct answer. Reign in Blood was extremely influential, but only 30% of the album is memorable. Hell Awaits is their most extreme, but it's even less memorable. Show No Mercy is one of those albums that has that pure, raw youthful energy combined with ridiculously catchy and "fun" songs that hardly exists outside of the 80s. The amount of bands still trying to recreate Show No Mercy to this day is great to see, but nothing comes close to it. One of the best debuts in metal history.
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ObservationSlave
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:27 pm 
 

This is a really random pick, but it was the first one to come to mind. I think Falconer's debut is their best, although Chapters from a Vale Forlorn comes really close.

I see the argument for Metal Church, and I actually think an argument can be made for any of their first five albums being the best, but I like each of those 3 Howe albums better than the debut.

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Intraum
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:50 am 
 

TrooperEd wrote:


-Deicide: s/t The sound is the most demonic and the songs were never catchier than they are here.



i feel like Legion is the pinnacle of the Deicide sound and ethos. you are right about the catchiness of the debut, but to my ears Legion has it beat in the demonic category. it was complete madness from beginning to end. they never sounded more ferocious then that, and whats worse, is that if you listen to everything they did after it sounds like they didn't even try.

on another note, i think Slayer should be disqualified from this conversation since you could pick nearly anything they recorded in the eighties and make a solid argument that it's the best thing they did. they were just that damn good

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Wilytank
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:28 am 
 

Impaled Nazarene - Tol Cormpt Norz Norz Norz

Imp Naz has a lot of attitude in their music, but on their debut they couple it with a genuinely evil sound that doesn't quite get reciprocated on their later works.
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HeavenDuff
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Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:14 am 
 

I'm still waiting for some edgy teen to say Darkthrone's Soulside Journey :P

Amber Gray wrote:
Kvelertak - The s/t was a fun and energetic, and also original display of music, but their last two just lack the soul and come out watered down.


Obvious choice! Kvelertak's first had such power and the use of black metal elements in the song-writing really made Kvelertak stood out. Their later efforts do feel a little watered down. They are not bad albums though.

Amber Gray wrote:
Agalloch - Another bold opinion on my part, but Pale Folklore is perfect in my eyes, and has all that I love to hear in atmospheric black metal in abundance. It actually was tough since the Mantle is amazing too, but the in their progression they decreased the elements that I feel make PF such a sick album.


When it comes to Agalloch's first three LPs I can't really see a problem with fans liking either one of these three best. The Mantle, PF and Ashes Against The Grain are all fantastic in their own right. So I can see why someone would love PF the most.

into_the_pit wrote:
definitely mayhem. even though all post-DMDS releases have ranged between good and excellent in quality, the debut album still stands on its own as the arguably best BM release of all time, a monster of an album.


Altough I wouldn't say it's the best black metal record ever, it's still the best Mayhem by a long shot.

Bishop_Drugsalot wrote:
Death - Scream Bloody Gore. Leprosy was a slightly watered-down version of it and the rest aren't up to its standard at all.


SBG does seem to have a strong following that likes it's rawer, straight-to-the-point agressivity. But to ignore releases like Human would be a huge mistake. Human is pillar of death metal, and most likely the only album I'd rank above SBG in their entire discography, although all their records (except ITP, in my opinion) all have high quality material on them.

Norrmania wrote:
Also agree with Decapitated Winds of Creation mention too. Decapitated just never came close to Winds ever again. Nihility was good though honestly can't remember The Negation of Organic Hallucinosis very much. Its been ages since I heard them, but definitely never recaptured the level they were at with Winds. Anything I heard after Organic was pretty uninteresting.


Winds of Creation was the highest point for Decapitated. It was thick and heavy, and the riffing was killer. It was all downhill from there in my opinion. The Negation is their second best, IMO, and the further they progressed in time, the worst they got. From Nihility and onward, the production sounds thin to me, lacks depth and sounds too stiff, and seems to try a little too much to be prog/technical with all the start/stop riffs. It's not a bad album per se, but Decapitated never came close to sounding as amazing as on WoC ever again in their entire discography.


Last edited by HeavenDuff on Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Intraum
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:49 am 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
I'm still waiting for some edgy teen to say Darkthrone's Soulside Eclipse :P



hey now, Soulside Journey was a decent slab of death metal for it's time. it isn't a blemish on their discography at all, just a stepping stone in the musical development of the band. hell, i'd gladly take another Soulside then the half assed takes on speed metal, punk and Hellhammer worship that they have released recently.

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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:07 am 
 

Intraum wrote:
HeavenDuff wrote:
I'm still waiting for some edgy teen to say Darkthrone's Soulside Eclipse :P



hey now, Soulside Journey was a decent slab of death metal for it's time. it isn't a blemish on their discography at all, just a stepping stone in the musical development of the band. hell, i'd gladly take another Soulside then the half assed takes on speed metal, punk and Hellhammer worship that they have released recently.


Oh, haha! I was not saying Soulside Journey (dunno why I wrote Eclipse... Maybe I had Emperor on my mind...) was not good. But evey thread like this one has at least one guy who's going to say at some point that Darkthrone's entire discography is shit except for SJ. I'm also not really getting the hate for the latest Darkthrone material. There is obviously people who genuinely like it, and both Fenriz and Nocturno Culto seem to be pretty honest with their latest effort. And I personnally like that they are trying something different and not just playing it safe by just reashing old stuff. In a way, they are staying true to what black metal was always about.

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TheWaltzer
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:19 am 
 

Down - NOLA
They released some good material afterwards, but this one has never been topped in my eyes, and I kinda doubt it ever will, since Phil's vocals are deteriorating and Kirk Windstein is gone.

I also agree with Helloween - Walls Of Jericho. I was never a big fan of the Keeper albums, so this one will always get my vote. I guess they did come fairly close with Time Of The Oath, but the amount of raw energy on this record is amazing and pretty much exemplifies what power metal is capable of.

Also a few thrash bands, like Exodus, Vio-Lence, and Nuclear Assault (arguably).
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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:06 am 
 

Cynic made Focus in 94'. I don't think they'll ever be able to top this. Not that their later prog metal and prog rock records are bad, I actually really love Traced in Air, but there is nothing that compares with their magnum opus that is Focus. There aren't many bands that managed to pull the jazz fusion/prog death genre without sounding extremely pretentious and lacking in actual death metal song-writing skills.

Fleshgod Apocalypse's first LP is their best, and also their only relevant LP. They've worked on demos that were pretty interesting and some of the guys were in other bands before FA that made pretty good death metal. But right after their album Oracles, Fleshgod watered down their music with boring orchestrations and basically became a death metal Dimmu Borgir. Their creative leads are not forever gone, and even if they have a few tracks here and there on their later records, nothing they've made after Oracles ever topped it.

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schizoid
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:58 am 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Intraum wrote:

Oh, haha! I was not saying Soulside Journey (dunno why I wrote Eclipse... Maybe I had Emperor on my mind...) was not good. But evey thread like this one has at least one guy who's going to say at some point that Darkthrone's entire discography is shit except for SJ. I'm also not really getting the hate for the latest Darkthrone material. There is obviously people who genuinely like it, and both Fenriz and Nocturno Culto seem to be pretty honest with their latest effort. And I personnally like that they are trying something different and not just playing it safe by just reashing old stuff. In a way, they are staying true to what black metal was always about.


I don't see what's controversial about making that claim. If anything it would just show that you are more into DM than BM. Hell, I'm even leaning toward endorsing Soulside as their best for that very reason, and also because it is a pretty solid album. But I wont, because it just doesnt feel right to compare it to the rest of their output.

I'm not really one to jump on the "their first album was the best", because I can often appreciate how bands refine their sound over time. I cant say I really agree with any of the examples that have been made here unequivocally. There will of course be something out there if I really think about it, but seeing as no band is really coming to mind straight away, there's a good chance that it wouldn't be an important release anyway.
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arnvidr
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:59 am 
 

So much stuff I disagree with in two small pages :lol:

I almost never prefer the debut, including most bands mentioned here so far. I might be inclined to agree on Morbid Angel and Emperor.

My pick is probably Diamond Head.

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MikeyC
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:06 am 
 

Let's name some stuff that might not be mentioned yet:

Necronomicon - Pharaoh of Gods

In fairness, I haven't heard their last two. Their second album was a cool tribal-themed album. The third album was kind of mediocre, dropping any cool elements they had. But this debut, where they channeled Nile and included really cool Egyptian themes in their music, is where the band was the best. You can get lost in the soundscapes of north African death metal and be rewarded greatly.

Comatose Vigil - Not a Gleam of Hope

They only made two albums and an EP, but this debut was never going to be topped, even if they made ten albums. One of my absolute favourite funeral doom albums to exist, capturing monumental atmosphere and feelings of oppressive dread. Or maybe that's just me.

Beneath the Massacre - Mechanics of Dysfunction

I like everything this band has achieved, but their debut is still the one I mostly turn to. It's got the punch and verve I look for that may have been slightly downplayed in later releases.

Mayhem - De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas

I like all their albums to some degree, but this debut was, of course, where it was all done. Not even including the controversy surrounding its release and production, the songs here are all intense, but contain some super catchy riffs and some of the most impressive drumming laid to CD. "Buried by Time and Dust" anyone?

Teitanblood - Seven Chalices

This debut is probably not going to be topped. Ever since CrushedRevelation and I were jamming this to some beers some years ago, I loved the evil, frothing nature of this. Plus those various interludes are just amazing, bringing the whole experience together. Death was a disappointment to me, even though I still don't mind it, because they just lost everything that made the debut so special. The various EP's don't fill me with too much confidence that they'll continue in that vein, either.

Bethlehem - Dark Metal

Not much to say here except that this is the only album with tolerable vocals.

Atheist - Piece of Time

While Unquestionable Presence is their pinnacle in many eyes, I just found that the debut is a lot catchier. I like everything they've done, though, including Jupiter.

Undergang - Indhentet af Doden

Their debut floored many people, myself included, with its thick atmosphere and great songs. Nothing groundbreaking, but they got on with the job, and how. The two that followed weren't quite as good, although still worth your time, but the debut is where it's at for these guys. I hope they can floor me once more.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:53 am 
 

schizoid wrote:
I don't see what's controversial about making that claim. If anything it would just show that you are more into DM than BM. Hell, I'm even leaning toward endorsing Soulside as their best for that very reason, and also because it is a pretty solid album. But I wont, because it just doesnt feel right to compare it to the rest of their output.

I'm not really one to jump on the "their first album was the best", because I can often appreciate how bands refine their sound over time. I cant say I really agree with any of the examples that have been made here unequivocally. There will of course be something out there if I really think about it, but seeing as no band is really coming to mind straight away, there's a good chance that it wouldn't be an important release anyway.

It's common among black metal fans to assume that black metal is inherently and objectively superior to everything else and every claim to the contrary is trolling or worse. Best you can do is dismiss it in silence, with an optional laugh.

(Note that when you see one of those Count Orloks use the term "edgy teen" to describe others, the laugh is mandatory.)
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Terri23
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Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:53 am
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:24 am 
 

yuricane wrote:
Anathema.


The Crestfallen or Serenades?
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hakarl
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Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:31 am 
 

I think Anathema certainly improved upon their debut - regardless of whether you consider Serenades or Crestfallen EP to be the debut - with Pentecost III and The Silent Enigma. My personal favourite in their discography came out somewhat later, but even if I only consider the doom metal era, I don't think the first two records really hold up.

MikeyC wrote:
Mayhem - De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas

I like all their albums to some degree, but this debut was, of course, where it was all done. Not even including the controversy surrounding its release and production, the songs here are all intense, but contain some super catchy riffs and some of the most impressive drumming laid to CD. "Buried by Time and Dust" anyone?
I certainly wouldn't contest that De Mysteriis is Mayhem's best album. I've really grown to appreciate Esoteric Warfare lately, and Wolf's Lair Abyss and Chimera are both good records, but of course nothing tops De Mysteriis. However, I think Deathcrush is generally considered to be Mayhem's debut, even though it's not a full-length album. That considered, they topped their debut massively.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:42 am 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
However, I think Deathcrush is generally considered to be Mayhem's debut, even though it's not a full-length album. That considered, they topped their debut massively.

What... That doesn't make any sense. With what? Did they release something I'm not aware of? I guess it works for people who generally prefer the friendlier, less dark stuff, like the people who say Powerslave is better than Iron Maiden or Heaven & Hell is better than Black Sabbath or Heartwork is better than Reek of Putrefaction, otherwise I can't see how anyone could see it that way.
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