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Sacrifice some sacred cows
https://forum.metal-archives.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=122095
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Author:  Temple Of Blood [ Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

I never liked Gutter Ballet besides the title track. This band really struggled after HOTMK IMHO.

But yes, Oliva was an AMAZING guitarist. I like how many great riffs he could make off the permutations of the same 4 chords. :)

Author:  Twisted_Psychology [ Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

I wish I liked Gutter Ballet more than I actually do. On one hand, the title track and When The Crowds Are Gone are absolutely phenomenal and tracks like The Hounds, Summer's Rain, and The Unholy are great. On the other, Of Rage and War and She's In Love are good but don't quite catch fire and Mentally Yours is fucking awful. It wasn't the wisest first album purchase and I'm glad I got Edge of Thorns and Hall of the Mountain King pretty quickly to rectify it.

Author:  StainedClass95 [ Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

It's great to see some love for Criss Oliva, easily one of my favorite 80s guitarists. Everything from his riffs to solos and especially his tone were fantastic, well not every time but more often than not. Weird that TP hates Mentally Yours, that one is one of my favorites from Gutter Ballet but to each his own.

On the subject of USPM and the thread, Vicious Rumors has always been in one ear and out the other for me. I have tried Digital Dictator in particular more times than I can count, and it just does not remotely register for me. Listening to them again to even remember it and nothing sticks out. I guess the faster songs are better, but that is all the praise I can muster.

Author:  Woolie_Wool [ Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

Why don't the more melodic power metal bands hire some of the hordes of overqualified and underemployed singers pouring out of conservatories, music schools, and universities? If you're in such a band, you need a singer who can deliver loud and forceful vocal lines and sound powerful and authoritative, and who is going to be a better choice: the guy you know who brings himself one step closer to an emergency room visit every time his Geoff Tate impression violently lurches between chest voice and falsetto, or a guy who spent his entire life building himself up to sound like that, and knows how to function in an ensemble, subordinate his ego to the needs of the music, and not embarrass you on stage? Some Judas Priest, Blind Guardian, Candlemass, and Queensryche CDs to learn extended techniques with will take care of the rest.

He doesn't have the right look? Fuck you, you don't have the right look, your sword is made of tableware-quality stainless and your chainmail looks like it was made from a lost 1983 version of Braveheart starring 1983 Marlon Brando. You all look ridiculous so you might as well let him look ridiculous in his own way.

Author:  ~Guest 354281 [ Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

Anything by Watain

i like them enough but in no way do they deserve all the praise they get

many, oh so many, better BM bands that get no where near the same appraisal

Author:  Frenetic Zetetic [ Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

raspberrysoda wrote:
1. Beherit's Drawing Down the Moon is an excruciating borefest. It should not be as overhyped as it currently is.
2. Entombed peaked during Wolverine Blues. Left Hand Path is boring.
3. Opeth sucks. Really sucks.
4. Maiden's best album is Killers
5. King Diamond's vocals are 90% annoying and 10% on point


QFT. High-five! Left Hand Path still puts me to sleep.

Author:  joppek [ Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

Woolie_Wool wrote:
Why don't the more melodic power metal bands hire some of the hordes of overqualified and underemployed singers pouring out of conservatories, music schools, and universities? If you're in such a band, you need a singer who can deliver loud and forceful vocal lines and sound powerful and authoritative, and who is going to be a better choice: the guy you know who brings himself one step closer to an emergency room visit every time his Geoff Tate impression violently lurches between chest voice and falsetto, or a guy who spent his entire life building himself up to sound like that, and knows how to function in an ensemble, subordinate his ego to the needs of the music, and not embarrass you on stage? Some Judas Priest, Blind Guardian, Candlemass, and Queensryche CDs to learn extended techniques with will take care of the rest.

He doesn't have the right look? Fuck you, you don't have the right look, your sword is made of tableware-quality stainless and your chainmail looks like it was made from a lost 1983 version of Braveheart starring 1983 Marlon Brando. You all look ridiculous so you might as well let him look ridiculous in his own way.


probably because most of the people you're talking about aren't interested in making that kind of music

Author:  Mass Suicide [ Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

Somar wrote:
Anything by Watain

i like them enough but in no way do they deserve all the praise they get

many, oh so many, better BM bands that get no where near the same appraisal


My main problem with Watain is that they are taking themselves VERY serious. As if they would be something special. Not a single trace of self-irony in this band. They would truly deserve some ridicule.

Author:  Temple Of Blood [ Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

Woolie_Wool wrote:
Why don't the more melodic power metal bands hire some of the hordes of overqualified and underemployed singers pouring out of conservatories, music schools, and universities?


I don't know why you assume that these bands have any money to "hire" anyone. People don't study voice in school to use their skills for free.

Author:  InnesI [ Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

Somar wrote:
Anything by Watain

i like them enough but in no way do they deserve all the praise they get

many, oh so many, better BM bands that get no where near the same appraisal


Granted I haven't listened much to Watain but I have given their albums a few chances each and I agree with your assessment. They are never bad but to me the music is so unmemorable. Its fine for the moment but I have forgotten everything once the album stops playing.

And of course I know, through the guitar player and drummer in my band, that Erik Danielsson is a wimp trying to act tough. They hung around the same places a few years ago and they were hugely unimpressed by him. Doesn't change the music of course but with the stories I've heard its hard to take him as seriously as he likes to come across in interviews for example.

Author:  HeavenDuff [ Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

There aren't really that many "classics" that I profoundly dislike. Even those I'm a bout to mention aren't exactly albums that I can't understand being appreciated by others, but just albums that I can't really seem to enjoy.

Best examples I can think of right now are Sodom's most popular albums, except for Agent Orange, which I'm enjoying despite it having a few of the same issues as the others. So albums like Persecution Mania, Better Off Dead, Code Red, M-16 and more are all albums that I don't enjoy. I feel that they are formulaic, repetitive and lack the agression that I would expect from thrash metal. Of course, the fact that the music takes such a predictacle form doesn't help in feeling the agression. Music that surprises me, evolves in unpredictacle ways catches my attention more. Sodom doesn't really give you this. And one thing that I remember discussing here on MA before that really bothers me with Sodom's song-writing is in the way they write their chorus. Most of which are just Angelripper screaming the title of the track over and over. Once I noticed this, I couldn't "unnotice it" and it pretty much killed most of their music to me.

Author:  HamburgerBoy [ Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

Sodom is pretty uninspiring in general. I used to respect them for In the Sign of Evil and that Chemical Warfare riff, until I discovered that the EP was actually released in 1985 the whole time. Expurse of Sodomy is the best thing they ever did, still aggressive but the songwriting is a little more ambitious (albeit Bay Area-esque).

Author:  StainedClass95 [ Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

^I think I've seen you bring up Sodom using that riff before, why exactly do you care who wrote it first? It wouldn't be the first time that different bands used the same/similar riff.

Author:  HamburgerBoy [ Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

StainedClass95 wrote:
^I think I've seen you bring up Sodom using that riff before, why exactly do you care who wrote it first? It wouldn't be the first time that different bands used the same/similar riff.


It's not so much that there's a copied or that specific riff (lots of bands copy riffs). It's just that I used to be of the opinion that they were actually ahead of even Slayer for a brief time in 1984, so I gave them respect for that even if they fizzled out quickly, but now it's difficult for me to praise them at all knowing that it was just another case of UltraBoris fraudulently submitting earlier-than-actual release dates. Hell Awaits, Darkness Descends, Bestial Devastation, Seven Churches, etc all written and/or released around the time of that EP, I don't see much notable about early Sodom except that they got a record deal while other equally sloppy bands were still stuck on the demo circuit.

Author:  Acrobat [ Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

Obsessed by Cruelty has a fucking malign, wicked atmosphere that was rivalling even Bathory and Hellhammer, really. Totally unique album - no matter what your personal thoughts are. In the Sign of Evil, too, is amateurish but just possessed with a wild spirit that is quite unlike anything else. Then again, some folks don't need to "pooh pooh" the historical importance of certain bands just because they don't fit in with their personal tastes. Ask any of the early 90s black metal or death metal bands and you'll hear Sodom as an almost ubiquitous influence. Any statement otherwise is historical revisionism.

Ahead of Slayer? I mean, they weren't half as advanced musically and they weren't even really touching upon the same ground: Show No Mercy has its NWOBHM leanings more to the Killers still whereas Sodom are more Venom-esque. Hell Awaits then went in a more death metal-y direction; totally unlike what Sodom were doing. Sodom didn't make music as brutal as 'Chemical Warfare' at that point, but they were plying their own grizzly trade with black/thrash metal.

Author:  CannibalCorpse [ Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

So I tried to get past King Diamond's falsetto wailing by following a recommendation made here ("The Puppet Master") and seriously, WTF?

TPM feels like the crippled, c-movie version of King Diamond's prime with a modern production. Supposedly it should have been easier to get into, because King dropped most of the falsetto. Problem is, he dropped most other qualities as well. TPM is like the light version of early King Diamond without the good riffs, memorable writing and menacing lower vocal range of old.

The good thing is, the experience made me go back to "Conspiracy" and the King's vocal were quite a bit less annoying immediately. Maybe I can get past it and enjoy the amazing fretboard wizardry.

Author:  nuklearkrieg [ Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

AC/DC. So bad.

Author:  HeavenDuff [ Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

Acrobat wrote:
Then again, some folks don't need to "pooh pooh" the historical importance of certain bands just because they don't fit in with their personal tastes. Ask any of the early 90s black metal or death metal bands and you'll hear Sodom as an almost ubiquitous influence. Any statement otherwise is historical revisionism.


Then again we didn't say they were completely useless or that they don't have any kind of merit or influence on the scene, just that most of their stuff is uninspired. If you've heard one Sodom album, you've heard them all.

Author:  rexxz [ Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

Having a consistency of sound to the point of your description doesn't mean they are uninspired. That is an incorrect usage of that word.

Author:  Acrobat [ Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

HeavenDuff wrote:
Acrobat wrote:
Then again, some folks don't need to "pooh pooh" the historical importance of certain bands just because they don't fit in with their personal tastes. Ask any of the early 90s black metal or death metal bands and you'll hear Sodom as an almost ubiquitous influence. Any statement otherwise is historical revisionism.


Then again we didn't say they were completely useless or that they don't have any kind of merit or influence on the scene, just that most of their stuff is uninspired. If you've heard one Sodom album, you've heard them all.


Again, clean your ears.

The super primitive In the Sign of Evil is different from the even weirder and stranger Obsessed by Cruelty which is different to Persecution Mania's dark but more streamlined thrash, which is different from Agent Orange's even-more-streamlined, more Bay Area-esque thrash, which is very different from Better Off Dead's Motorthrash and rockin' sound, which is very different from Tapping the Vein's brutal take on the death thrash sound (complete with keyboards, in places!), which is very different from Get What You Deserve's stripped down, one-guitar-track, Ramones-thrash.

And that's their first ten years! One needs to actually listen to Sodom before making comments about them. :P

Author:  Dungeon_Vic [ Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

101% percent with Acrobat on this. Plus, it saddens me that someone will listen to Christ Passion and come with "uninspired" to descrive it.

Author:  Ace_Rimmer [ Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

The Puppet Master is a great record you savage!

Author:  CannibalCorpse [ Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

Ace_Rimmer wrote:
The Puppet Master is a great record you savage!


It's like their 80s records on tranquillizers.

Author:  Ace_Rimmer [ Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

CannibalCorpse wrote:
Ace_Rimmer wrote:
The Puppet Master is a great record you savage!


It's like their 80s records on tranquillizers.


:nono:

Author:  true_death [ Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

'Abominations of Desolation' is a really weak and boring album, every single song on there was improved 100x when it was re-recorded ("Demon Seed" totally sucks and is basically unsalvageable, which is probably why it never got re-recorded). I suppose part of it is because I'm so used to hearing the 'Altars...', 'Blessed...', etc. versions but I really think that even on their own, they fall totally short of not only major players like Possessed and Death, but also second-tier bands like Necrophagia. I honestly doubt the band would have achieved the fame they did if it had ended up as their proper debut...I guess we can thank David Vincent for that :lol: (if Mike Browning is to be believed, that is).

Author:  HeavenDuff [ Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

Acrobat wrote:
Again, clean your ears.


I'm not even going to bother reading your crap post.

Author:  Metantoine [ Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

HeavenDuff wrote:
Acrobat wrote:
Again, clean your ears.


I'm not even going to bother reading your crap post.

Acrobat is right though. Saying that all of Sodom's albums are the same is the equivalent of saying the same thing about Motorhead (1916 vs Overkill etc), it's just something people who don't know the bands are saying.

Acrobat is perhaps not the most constructive poster but his post did have some content unlike this one you just wrote.

Author:  HeavenDuff [ Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

Metantoine wrote:
HeavenDuff wrote:

I'm not even going to bother reading your crap post.

Acrobat is right though. Saying that all of Sodom's albums are the same is the equivalent of saying the same thing about Motorhead (1916 vs Overkill etc), it's just something people who don't know the bands are saying.

Acrobat is perhaps not the most constructive poster but his post did have some content unlike this one you just wrote.


I'm not wasting time with people who shitposts. Simple. I don't care how right or wrong you are about a subject, if you're going to be a dick about it, I'm not going to waste my time with anything you write. I would have been more inclined in considering his opinion if he was not such a dick about it.

As for Sodom, I've not said that all their albums are the same at point or any time. I said they have formulaic song-writing and that their music is pretty much always structured the same way. This doesn't mean that all of their albums are the same.

Everytime we discuss Sodom in here people bring that same point about the importance of In The Sign of Evil. Which I, again, am not debatting. However, hearing these few extremely frequent song-writing quirks that Sodom has in the way they write songs, especially when it comes to choruses makes their music rather unenjoyable to my ears.

Author:  Acrobat [ Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

Man, I asked you to, jokingly, clean your ears - you took way too much from that. You said "If you've heard one - you've heard them all", which is an entirely different statement from your last post. Because if you've heard Obsessed by Cruelty you've heard M-16, right? One might recommend some thicker skin when posting on an internet forum, because nothing I said was so rude.

Author:  Sepulchrave [ Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

Manowar have always been an extremely boring band. They always placed attitude, ideology, "death to false metal" pretense, etc. above musicianship IMO. I'm not surprised they ended up the way they have been now for 10 years at all.

Author:  LordStenhammar [ Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

Well, I listen to Manowar a lot. They're good, not Sabbath or Priest good, but good. The later albums have their flaws, but I can still enjoy them. There's always good songs to be found from every album balancing all the bullshit, which is more often heard from The Triumph of Steel (or in some level maybe even earlier) onwards.

Author:  HeavenDuff [ Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

Sepulchrave wrote:
Manowar have always been an extremely boring band. They always placed attitude, ideology, "death to false metal" pretense, etc. above musicianship IMO. I'm not surprised they ended up the way they have been now for 10 years at all.


I'm not really sure anyone actually likes them unironically.

Author:  Morn Of Solace [ Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

Their First four were all legitimately great albums, with a widespread influence on multiple genres.
I can overlook any silliness if it's packed with damn good riffs, vocals and solos :)

Also... IM NOT AFRAID OF MYSELF!!!!!

Author:  Ace_Rimmer [ Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

Hail to England is a legitimately good record.

Author:  Temple Of Blood [ Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

The debut is a heavy metal masterpiece. I will defend most of their albums.

Author:  InnesI [ Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

I enjoy several of Manowar's albums. I think the following are good through and through (with the exception of the Demaio bass solos - the only good one being his version of Sting of the Bumblebee) Into Glory Ride, Hail to England, Kings of Metal and The Triumph of Steel. I also find myself revisiting Warriors of the World every now and then. The best tracks on that album are among their greatest. Everything after that is mostly miss. All the albums before or in between the ones I've listed have good tracks on them but I don't like them all the way through. One or two of their albums I haven't heard.

Author:  Acrobat [ Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

The first four albums are classics and the two after that are good. It went downhill massively when Ross left; he was the heart of that band.

Author:  JtK [ Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

Not a metal band per se, but a lot of people cite them as an influence: Led Zeppelin. Even when taking age into account they always sounded boring to me. Can't see what's interesting enough to care about them. Less competent band in the same category: Kiss. Got no idea why somebody would like kiss.

Being from Scandinavia I'll mention that there's very few Scandinavian bands I sincerely care about. Apart from Darkthrone's primitive take on it on most of their albums I can't understand why anybody would like the "melodic" thing we're know for. I like melody, but as soon as Scandinavian bands utilize it everything suddenly sound like red riding hood prancing through the forest with a Slayer t-shirt.

More generally within the "collective scene" a lot of the bands up here got a serious issues with their self-importance and perceived uniqueness. Darkthrone might appear like elitist, but their "meat and potatoes" attitude about it is lacking in a lot of other bands. Darkthrone's quite modest with regard to that compared to others. Quite a few years ago when people started to notice bands like The Devil's Blood and later Ghost the rank and file in the metal scene a lot of the more extreme (often younger) bands more or less quietly started to follow the lead album or two after than.

This while retaining this outward attitude of that their band tried to explore new territory. In short, we're known for our metal and it's unique character and yet a lot of the bands seem very self-conscious when it comes to what's "cool" and not. Which leads me to the somewhat related example: Watain.

One person I met called them "hipster black" and it couldn't be more fitting. Replace that with "hipster death" and you'll find such bands. First, maybe second, album: old school death metal revival (when it was cool, before that a lot of people dabbled in thrash for a short while instead), the next: "Ghost light" with some harsh vocals here and there. Doesn't necessarily mean that everything is bad, but the attention some bands get for their exciting take on whatever they did before just rings hollow and it never sat right with me.

Anyway, both the bands the got attention during the 90's and the one's who get attention today always leave me feeling "Wait, what".

And since I mention crappy black metal band, here's on more: Mayhem. Mediocre death turned to an overrated black band.

Author:  shwartzheim [ Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

JtK wrote:
Not a metal band per se, but a lot of people cite them as an influence: Led Zeppelin. Even when taking age into account they always sounded boring to me. Can't see what's interesting enough to care about them. Less competent band in the same category: Kiss. Got no idea why somebody would like kiss.


Funny, you just mentioned both bands responsible for getting me into music (Kiss - The image got me curious, then heard God Of Thunder and fell in love) and playing guitar (Zeppelin - the extended violin bow solo in Dazed And Confused from the Song Remains The Same............awesome).

Author:  Ace_Rimmer [ Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sacrifice some sacred cows

Ace_Rimmer wrote:
Hail to England is a legitimately good record.


I should add that I've seen the light and Manowar fucking rules. Yes they have triple cheese at times but damn does Adams sell it and Ross the Boss lays some nice shit down. Digging back though Into Glory Ride, Kings of Metal, Triumph of Steel, and Sign of the Hammer there is all kinds of gold there. Then again I can listen to the songs of machismo and battle and glory and get into it. Wish I had seem them live but they haven't been around there parts in a long time. Heck looking at setlist.fm they don't play a lot of shows.

:np: Ride the Dragon

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