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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:38 pm 
 

1. Opeth - "Watershed"
2. Cyclone Temple - "I Hate Why I Am"
3. Artillery - "Terror Squad" (But I could have told Gojira - "From Mars To Sirius")

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... rev=search

#2 doesn't surprise me at all because .... has anyone besides me noticed how much Dark Angel borrowed from Cyclone Temple on "Time Does Not Heal"? Vocals are very similar in parts, as is some of the riffing and drumming. The last half of "Words and just Words" could've been on TDNH.

#1 does surprise me, and I am surprised there is no early Possessed and Slayer on this list.

OK, I guess I need to listen to Opeth now ... at least try to give that one album a fair shot.
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Opus
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:53 pm 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
2. Cyclone Temple - "I Hate Why I Am"

That's what I've been saying for years! (only it's called "I Hate Therefore I Am"
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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:58 pm 
 

Opus wrote:
Temple Of Blood wrote:
2. Cyclone Temple - "I Hate Why I Am"

That's what I've been saying for years! (only it's called "I Hate Therefore I Am"


Yes, sorry. I c/ped from Google translate.

Glad someone else agrees here. And we agreed on Sacral Rage not sounding like Nosferatu too. :)
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~Guest 226319
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:14 pm 
 

I know he was part of some great metal in the past, but he also destroyed his own credibility (and possibly his mind) by being part of dethklok. Should we be taking this guy's opinions seriously? No, we shouldn't.

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rexxz
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:16 pm 
 

If Gene has no credibility then by comparison you must have negative credibility, so I'm gonna listen to Gene.
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Opus
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:19 pm 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
...destroyed his own credibility by being part of dethklok.

Isn't that the same as with Richard Christy and Howard Stern: it's got nothing to do with music and it pays a shitload for a metal musician?
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FasterDisaster
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:28 pm 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
I know he was part of some great metal in the past, but he also destroyed his own credibility (and possibly his mind) by being part of dethklok.

Did Dethklok gang-rape a female fan or something? What am I missing here? :scratch:

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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:36 pm 
 

rexxz wrote:
If Gene has no credibility then by comparison you must have negative credibility, so I'm gonna listen to Gene.


No kidding.

Not only has the guy been one of the best metal drummers for decades, he's also a great lyricist and songwriter.

Yeah, I'll listen to his opinion even if I don't always agree.
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MorbidEarth
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:09 pm 
 

Gene Hoglan has been one of my favourite drummers for years. I certainly don't think less of him because he was in Dethklok. People have to eat after all!

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DrummingEdge133
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:44 pm 
 

He's a great drummer, but I don't see any Type O Negative on that list, so much for his musical taste.
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~Guest 417309
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:20 pm 
 

Really cool to see Mean Gene give some love to Watershed, an often lambasted Opeth album that I happen to think is their best, maybe that band's last great record. Fucking insane songs, insane atmosphere, one of my most listened-to prog albums.

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MawBTS
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:27 pm 
 

Please tell me this thread isn't just going to be 50 posts of "why didn't Gene pick [my favourite album]???"

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Red_Death
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:31 pm 
 

I won't comment on the inclusion of Opeth. Credibility-wise, taking part in Dethklok has nothing on the simple fact of nominating Opeth for a 3 best albums of all time :lol:

The third spot is the most interesting to me. I love Artillery, with By Inheritance being one of the greatest thrash records ever in my eyes; that's why his choice is somewhat enigmatic. But man yes, Artillery all the way.

And the alternative candidate of From Mars to Sirius is another album I really like. Not so sure of such reverence tho.
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thrashinbatman
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:05 pm 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
#2 doesn't surprise me at all because .... has anyone besides me noticed how much Dark Angel borrowed from Cyclone Temple on "Time Does Not Heal"? Vocals are very similar in parts, as is some of the riffing and drumming. The last half of "Words and just Words" could've been on TDNH.

.


The problem with this is that technically TDNH came out first.

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299796kms
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:24 pm 
 

FasterDisaster wrote:
John_Sunlight wrote:
I know he was part of some great metal in the past, but he also destroyed his own credibility (and possibly his mind) by being part of dethklok.

Did Dethklok gang-rape a female fan or something? What am I missing here? :scratch:

Apparently being associated with a cartoon that, gasp, took the piss out of metal and metalheads, is one of the 666 deadly sins.
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BastardHead
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:00 pm 
 

The real cardinal sin here is putting that fucking awful Cyclone Temple album on such a pedestal. I know it's not "the album that killed thrash" but it's certainly 100% enigmatic of the mindset that did more or less lead the subgenre to extinction. Thrash was initially based on intensity and speed and high octane riffing and boundless energy, that's absolutely what made it thrive and it's what all the best thrash albums have in common. I hate hurling shit at Metallica because they get a lot of it unfairly, but I do think they did accidentally lead thrash metal to its doom. Not with the black album, but with their classics. Puppets got it rolling and Justice solidified it, which is a bummer since I like both of those albums, but the path is pretty clear to me. Justice was longer, with all but two songs breaching the seven minute mark. Justice was slower, with all but two songs being more midpaced and chunky on the whole (at least in terms of songwriting, obviously it's hard to be "chunky" with no low end). Justice had air of being smarter and more sophisticated when really it took regular thrash songs and played them at 70% speed and repeated themselves a whole bunch (unlike Puppets which genuinely had a lot more ideas going on). But most importantly, Justice was successful. They had that massive tour to accompany it and the music video for One was a total smash hit, the prevailing joke is that the Grammys introduced the metal category purely for Metallica, it sold nearly two million copies in 1988, which is extra impressive since it came out at the end of August.

The point is that Justice was decidedly different from most underground thrash classics, practically a different genre entirely than Reign in Blood or Pleasure to Kill (something OlympicSharpShooter brilliantly dubbed "long thrash"). And after it was such a huge success, suddenly every fucking thrash band around started toying around with pointlessly long songs that plodded on at a middling pace and went absolutely nowhere. Anthrax released Persistence of Time, Overkill released The Years of Decay, Heathen released Victims of Deception, Dark Angel released Time Does Not Heal, et cetera forever. Everybody tried following Metallica's blueprint and nobody even came close to replicating that success. A whole bunch of great bands that were really good at being fast and angry and violent tried to get too cute and pretend smart and everything just collapsed in on itself.

I guess what that big rant was leading up to was the fact that I think Cyclone Temple is the most egregious example of this phenomenon, because it turned the almost impossibly awesome Znowhite into a whiny and plodding go-nowhere snoozefest with precisely zero good songs. Pointing out I Hate, Therefore I Am as one of the best metal albums of all time is like seeing this mighty leviathan troll the oceans and lay waste to every wayward fool unlucky enough to cross its path and then finding it beached, bloated and dying while tourists snap pictures of its shuddering semi-corpse and saying "Oh yeah, this is the most impressive this thing has ever been." Fuck Cyclone Temple so god damned hard, Znowhite released a masterpiece and then transformed into this dull fucking nightmare.
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joppek
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:39 am 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
#1 does surprise me, and I am surprised there is no early Possessed and Slayer on this list.


i'd be pretty surprised to see seven churches on any drummer's top list, considering how awful the drumming on that album is
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BasqueStorm
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:15 am 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
1. Opeth - "Watershed"
2. Cyclone Temple - "I Hate Why I Am"
3. Artillery - "Terror Squad" (But I could have told Gojira - "From Mars To Sirius")
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... rev=search

Bullshit.

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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:47 am 
 

joppek wrote:
Temple Of Blood wrote:
#1 does surprise me, and I am surprised there is no early Possessed and Slayer on this list.


i'd be pretty surprised to see seven churches on any drummer's top list, considering how awful the drumming on that album is


Good point, but I know gene has said good things about possessed before.
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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:50 am 
 

thrashinbatman wrote:
Temple Of Blood wrote:
#2 doesn't surprise me at all because .... has anyone besides me noticed how much Dark Angel borrowed from Cyclone Temple on "Time Does Not Heal"? Vocals are very similar in parts, as is some of the riffing and drumming. The last half of "Words and just Words" could've been on TDNH.

.


The problem with this is that technically TDNH came out first.


Whoa, sorry. I kept thinking that cyclone temple came out in 1992 because it was so quickly forgotten.

In that case I can't explain some of the blatant similarities. Like I said the second half of words are just words could've seemlessly fit on tdnh.
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RichardDeBenthall
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:25 am 
 

Must admit, I was revisiting Watershed by Opeth today and I was thinking "Fuck me, this album is a bit killer tbh". Glad he gives it some love.

Never really got the hate for Opeth's DM output. Like I understand why people were pissed with their departure from it but so many metal fans seem to just hate Opeth in general.

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TheMysticWombat
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:35 pm 
 

Gonna check out Cyclone Temple now, never heard of them. Laughing hard at the guy that's mad at Gene because he was in Dethklok.

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TrooperEd
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:45 pm 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
I know he was part of some great metal in the past, but he also destroyed his own credibility (and possibly his mind) by being part of dethklok. Should we be taking this guy's opinions seriously? No, we shouldn't.



I'm more offended by him listing an Opeth album as #1 than participating in Dethklok. You can hear Ultraboris jumping off a bridge.
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rexxz
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:04 pm 
 

TrooperEd wrote:
You can hear Ultraboris jumping off a bridge.


And what a satisfying sound that is.

Hoglan can like what he likes, to pretend to be "offended" over it is laughable. And if you're not pretending, that's even more sad :lol:
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demonomania
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:09 pm 
 

He loves that Nintendo part somewhere in "Watershed" the most.
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PvtNinjer
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:11 pm 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
I know he was part of some great metal in the past, but he also destroyed his own credibility (and possibly his mind) by being part of dethklok. Should we be taking this guy's opinions seriously? No, we shouldn't.


lmao man you are funny but you can be such a square sometimes

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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:17 pm 
 

BastardHead wrote:
The real cardinal sin here is putting that fucking awful Cyclone Temple album on such a pedestal. I know it's not "the album that killed thrash" but it's certainly 100% enigmatic of the mindset that did more or less lead the subgenre to extinction.


That's ridiculous. Thrash was going to have a limited lifespan if every band copied the few big thrash bands. Cyclone Temple played music that was clearly thrash but not a ripoff of any of the founding thrash bands. Writing and playing thrash in your own way is what pretty much every thrash band should do.

Quote:
Thrash was initially based on intensity and speed and high octane riffing and boundless energy, that's absolutely what made it thrive and it's what all the best thrash albums have in common.


Cyclone Temple does have speed and intense riffing. Those musicians were not lazy.

Quote:
I hate hurling shit at Metallica because they get a lot of it unfairly, but I do think they did accidentally lead thrash metal to its doom.


Absurd. All the big thrash bands getting soft and mainstream combined with death metal & Pantera doing the opposite is what made thrashers leave in droves.

Quote:
The point is that Justice was decidedly different from most underground thrash classics, practically a different genre entirely than Reign in Blood or Pleasure to Kill (something OlympicSharpShooter brilliantly dubbed "long thrash"). And after it was such a huge success, suddenly every fucking thrash band around started toying around with pointlessly long songs that plodded on at a middling pace and went absolutely nowhere. Anthrax released Persistence of Time, Overkill released The Years of Decay, Heathen released Victims of Deception, Dark Angel released Time Does Not Heal, et cetera forever. Everybody tried following Metallica's blueprint and nobody even came close to replicating that success. A whole bunch of great bands that were really good at being fast and angry and violent tried to get too cute and pretend smart and everything just collapsed in on itself.


AJFA is a real "pretend smart" album lyrically although musically, it is much better composed than most of those albums you cited.

Those albums have a lot going for them though, and if had been released in 2017 would've been some of the best thrash to come out in 20 years easily. So I don't think trying to write longer, more technical, more intellectual songs is for everyone but I think it's not a dead end either. That Dark Angel one is a total classic in my book.

Quote:
I guess what that big rant was leading up to was the fact that I think Cyclone Temple is the most egregious example of this phenomenon, because it turned the almost impossibly awesome Znowhite into a whiny and plodding go-nowhere snoozefest with precisely zero good songs.


You're overstating how great Znowhite was while understating what Cyclone Temple has to offer. If anything, the riffing in Cyclone Temple is even more intense than Znowhite.

Quote:
Pointing out I Hate, Therefore I Am as one of the best metal albums of all time is like seeing this mighty leviathan troll the oceans and lay waste to every wayward fool unlucky enough to cross its path and then finding it beached, bloated and dying while tourists snap pictures of its shuddering semi-corpse and saying "Oh yeah, this is the most impressive this thing has ever been." Fuck Cyclone Temple so god damned hard, Znowhite released a masterpiece and then transformed into this dull fucking nightmare.


My evaluation:
1. Watershed - pure crap
2. Terrorsquad - great stuff, but not quite as good as By Inheritance
3. I Hate therefore I Am - good album but inconsistent

So none of those do I think should be on anyone's "best of all time" list. But Cyclone Temple suck? Give me a break.

I just don't know how he can get away with not having Hell Awaits on there. That had to be a huge part of Dark Angel's evolution.

His love for playing with Devin Townsend has convinced me that I have no idea where his head is at these days musically. If there is one overrated metal musician, it's him. So tired of people calling him a genius and even praising his guitar playing! Get real.
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cultofkraken
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:44 pm 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
BastardHead wrote:
The real cardinal sin here is putting that fucking awful Cyclone Temple album on such a pedestal. I know it's not "the album that killed thrash" but it's certainly 100% enigmatic of the mindset that did more or less lead the subgenre to extinction.


That's ridiculous. Thrash was going to have a limited lifespan if every band copied the few big thrash bands. Cyclone Temple played music that was clearly thrash but not a ripoff of any of the founding thrash bands. Writing and playing thrash in your own way is what pretty much every thrash band should do.

Quote:
Thrash was initially based on intensity and speed and high octane riffing and boundless energy, that's absolutely what made it thrive and it's what all the best thrash albums have in common.


Cyclone Temple does have speed and intense riffing. Those musicians were not lazy.

Quote:
I hate hurling shit at Metallica because they get a lot of it unfairly, but I do think they did accidentally lead thrash metal to its doom.


Absurd. All the big thrash bands getting soft and mainstream combined with death metal & Pantera doing the opposite is what made thrashers leave in droves.

Quote:
The point is that Justice was decidedly different from most underground thrash classics, practically a different genre entirely than Reign in Blood or Pleasure to Kill (something OlympicSharpShooter brilliantly dubbed "long thrash"). And after it was such a huge success, suddenly every fucking thrash band around started toying around with pointlessly long songs that plodded on at a middling pace and went absolutely nowhere. Anthrax released Persistence of Time, Overkill released The Years of Decay, Heathen released Victims of Deception, Dark Angel released Time Does Not Heal, et cetera forever. Everybody tried following Metallica's blueprint and nobody even came close to replicating that success. A whole bunch of great bands that were really good at being fast and angry and violent tried to get too cute and pretend smart and everything just collapsed in on itself.


AJFA is a real "pretend smart" album lyrically although musically, it is much better composed than most of those albums you cited.

Those albums have a lot going for them though, and if had been released in 2017 would've been some of the best thrash to come out in 20 years easily. So I don't think trying to write longer, more technical, more intellectual songs is for everyone but I think it's not a dead end either. That Dark Angel one is a total classic in my book.

Quote:
I guess what that big rant was leading up to was the fact that I think Cyclone Temple is the most egregious example of this phenomenon, because it turned the almost impossibly awesome Znowhite into a whiny and plodding go-nowhere snoozefest with precisely zero good songs.


You're overstating how great Znowhite was while understating what Cyclone Temple has to offer. If anything, the riffing in Cyclone Temple is even more intense than Znowhite.

Quote:
Pointing out I Hate, Therefore I Am as one of the best metal albums of all time is like seeing this mighty leviathan troll the oceans and lay waste to every wayward fool unlucky enough to cross its path and then finding it beached, bloated and dying while tourists snap pictures of its shuddering semi-corpse and saying "Oh yeah, this is the most impressive this thing has ever been." Fuck Cyclone Temple so god damned hard, Znowhite released a masterpiece and then transformed into this dull fucking nightmare.


My evaluation:
1. Watershed - pure crap
2. Terrorsquad - great stuff, but not quite as good as By Inheritance
3. I Hate therefore I Am - good album but inconsistent

So none of those do I think should be on anyone's "best of all time" list. But Cyclone Temple suck? Give me a break.

I just don't know how he can get away with not having Hell Awaits on there. That had to be a huge part of Dark Angel's evolution.

His love for playing with Devin Townsend has convinced me that I have no idea where his head is at these days musically. If there is one overrated metal musician, it's him. So tired of people calling him a genius and even praising his guitar playing! Get real.


You may not like Devin’s style or music but he is definitely a world class guitar player. I’ve seen him play numerous times and gone to clinics with him doing standalone acoustic at Long & McQuade and he definitely deserves the praise he gets.
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TrooperEd
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:25 pm 
 

rexxz wrote:
TrooperEd wrote:
You can hear Ultraboris jumping off a bridge.


And what a satisfying sound that is.

Hoglan can like what he likes, to pretend to be "offended" over it is laughable. And if you're not pretending, that's even more sad :lol:



Should have said "loading up a gun to shoot up your house," dick.
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Abominatrix
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:33 pm 
 

These sorts of threads are always puzzling to me. It is kind of interesting to know what a musician likes, and you might discover some good music through recommendations of musicians you enjoy, but getting emotionally invested in someone else's choices is just odd.

I listened to that Cyclone Temple album a few times, and while it's not really in a style I'm overly fond of (I'm not really a fan of that last Dark Angel album, either, nor of And Justice for All for that matter), I don't really see how its indicative of anything other than a band doing what they want to do and possibly following in the footsteps of an influence or two, which is something that everyone does, not just because they are followers, but sometimes, because they feel they might be able to do something better. I mean, how many guys in the scene at the time heard Metallica's AJFA and thought "well, that's cool and all, but I bet we could do better?" The fact that a good many of them probably couldn't is beside the point; at least they gave it a go. And I don't think they all sat down and said, "guys, we're a thrash band, we have to be super-intense and sound like this." I'm not sure a band like Cyclone Temple cares if you call them thrash or not. You don't have to; I'm sure they wouldn't be bothered if you don't consider their music thrashy enough for thrash. :lol:
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cvac
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:37 pm 
 

A rather pointless rant upthread. Agree that thrash would've died whether or not some bands chose to make longer, more complex songs on later albums.

AJFA is a good but flawed album, and definitely inferior to the Metallica albums that came before it.

I'll take Persistence of Time and Victims of Deception over it any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

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BastardHead
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Location: St. Charles, Illinois
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:02 pm 
 

I rambled a bit and probably got way too sidetracked trying to give it all context, but the overarching point that should be taken away from it is that I don't like that Cyclone Temple album at all because it's indicative of a greater problem thrash was experiencing in the late 80s and early 90s, that being that a lot of classic bands stopped playing to their strengths, and I point at least some of the finger to Metallica (despite completely agreeing that Justice is overall an okay album that is definitely flawed but has some stratospheric high points) for providing a blueprint to success that bands seemed to follow without actually being good at it. Anthrax was good at being upbeat and irreverent and fun, and then after Justice put out Persistence of Time, which is much longer and slower and darker on the whole and apart from a couple good songs doesn't really work. Overkill was good at being off the wall and intense, and then after Justice put out The Years of Decay, which is much longer and more subdued and gloomy and apart from a couple good songs doesn't really work. Heathen was good at being bright and exciting speed metal infused thrash riff monsters, and then after Justice put out Victims of Deception, which is much darker and longer and tighter and admittedly is probably the best example of this sort of "long thrash" working well enough, but the change happened regardless. Dark Angel was good at being Slayer and Kreator in a blender with an added dose of insane violence, and then after Justice put out Time Does Not Heal, which is precisely none of those things and is plagued by a weak vocalist with a one octave range and long repetitive mid paced songs that go nowhere and apart from a couple good songs doesn't really work. The same could be possibly said about Vio-lence, but admittedly it's been so many years since I listened to Oppressing the Masses that I can't say with confidence if it followed the same trend quite as obviously as the other examples. It's sticking in my mind as another casualty but I'm more than open to be completely talking out of my ass on that one.

All of that adds up to Znowhite being an off the wall shitnards insane blast of hyper intense thrash and Act of God being one of the most criminally underrated thrash albums ever released, and then after Justice the band breaks up and immediately reforms with the same lineup under the name Cyclone Temple, and put out I Hate, Therefore I Am which eschewed every single trait that made Znowhite so exhilarating in favor of aping all of the tropes of the worst Justice songs.

I'm not saying there was any one single cause of thrash's demise, almost all of the bands that didn't break up after their Justice counterparts went groove afterwards likely to capitalize on the Pantera trend (since maintaining relevance and label support was much more important back in the days when there was actually a tiny chance you could live off your music as opposed to now where everybody goes into it expecting to be a cool thing that might keep you above water if you're really lucky) but there was an undeniable influx of notable bands all coincidentally taking the exact same new shift in sound at the same time that all just so happened to coincide with one of the most successful metal albums of all time, and Cyclone Temple did the exact same thing and they faltered harder than anybody else in the transition.
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Abominatrix
Harbinger of Metal

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:15 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:57 pm 
 

Well, you know, it's as I always say: case by case basis. A lot of people seem to really adore years of Decay, precisely because it's darker and more "serious" and all of that. I happen to really like that Vio-lence album, even though it's kind of in line with a lot of the other stuff you mentioned there, and even though I'm on board with a lot of that later "post-thrash" stuff not really being all that great. I think the difference is that these bands didn't necessarily set out to be thrash monsters from the get go. "Thrash" was not really a part of their identity, or it wouldn't be if you personally asked them as musicians. They just made the music they thought was cool at the time. Some of them maybe thought they could beat Metallica at their own game, rather than being the fastest and most intense all of the time.
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Oxenkiller
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:42 am
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:01 pm 
 

Bastardhead has an interesting analysis of what essentially killed thrash, or rather, watered it down and stripped it away of all the elements that made it appealing in the first place.

I noticed this too- bands in the late 80s/early 90s started getting more technical, better musicianship, more 'serious,' etc, but the albums that resulted just lacked that over the top killer appeal. It happened to most of my favorite bands back then, which is, I suspect, part of why death and black metal got so popular so quickly. I admire bands that are not carbon copies of each other, that sound unique and different, but no matter what the sound is like, songwriting should come first. Having a bunch of six to eight minute mid-paced songs with a hundred over-complex, yet bland, tepid riffs (that may or may not even fit together in the song) is not a recipe for good songwriting, no matter what your band sounds like. I heard way too much of that kind of thing from the late 80s/early 90's era thrash bands.

Dethklok was just pure fun- it was entertainment, pure and simple- yeah it was basically a parody of metal and all, but I LIKED Dethklok (at least, the cartoon.) I don't hold that against anyone, in fact I give the guy props for being a part of that.

Artillery- Terror Squad- now THAT was a frucking great thrash album. Not too many people remember that one.

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HamburgerBoy
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:23 pm 
 

I always hated that Cyclone Temple album, but the last time I gave it a short I also hated Time Does Not Heal, which has grown immensely on me, so I'll put that one on again soon. Honestly, the inclusion of less-popular contemporaries of Hoglan is more surprising than him enjoying Opeth or Gojira to me, since it seems like many others (later Metallica and Slayer coming to mind) had a tendency to dismiss them. Really cool to see Artillery get some more recognition.

fwiw, I read in an interview circa 1986 or so that Hoglan actually disliked the comparisons between Dark Angel and Slayer, and that he considered Metallica a much larger influence on their sound. Considering he knew Slayer early enough to contribute backing vocals to Show No Mercy when he was in Wargod, it's impossible to believe he wasn't actually familiar with them, so maybe there was some bad blood at some point. I do know that Darkness Descends was written and played live almost a year before its release in late 1986, but Hell Awaits still would have been around for several months prior, so it almost surely had to be an influence.

EDIT: And in terms of the direction of thrash by the late 80s/early 90s, I think it's a case-by-case issue. AJFA put a lot of new life into Overkill with The Years of Decay imo, it's sometimes overly lengthy but really intense and interesting compared to Taking Over (basically a leftovers album) or Under the Influence (too much Anthrax and goofiness). On the other hand, I think Metallica influence ruined Sodom and Kreator around the same time, who toned down the intensity but didn't sufficiently improve their technical skills enough to write interesting music. As others have said, thrash would have "died" eventually no matter which direction it took. Those bands themselves were all then pushing a decade in age playing very intense and demanding music, and when the record labels like Roadrunner and Noise began to change direction or fold, which meant touring took a large hit as well, it was only natural for things to fizzle.

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MawBTS
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:16 am
Posts: 801
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:43 pm 
 

Quote:
fwiw, I read in an interview circa 1986 or so that Hoglan actually disliked the comparisons between Dark Angel and Slayer, and that he considered Metallica a much larger influence on their sound.


Good to hear this. It shows I'm not just imagining a Metallica influence on Darkness Descends.

"Black Prophecies" is basically a Master of Puppets track. "Merciless Death" has a melodic bass intro that evokes Cliff Burton. Obviously it also has a bunch of ridiculously fast tracks which hang with Slayer tempo-wise...but none of it feels like Slayer. Or Kreator, for that matter. The riff construction is very different. As is the production, which sounds like a dirtier version of Ride the Lightning.

Then you have Time Does Not Heal, which is kind of nerdy and dry, the way And Justice for All was.

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HamburgerBoy
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:52 pm 
 

Here's the specific interview, done just after Darkness Descends' release. I do agree that the popular opinion of Darkness Descends being merely an even faster Slayer undersells the album. The bit where they say Black Prophecies is the direction the band was headed in is interesting to note as well, since it shows even without AJFA and others being around at the time, some thrash bands were already wanting to push themselves musically and write longer, more complex songs. I know there was an interview where Hoglan specifically name-dropped Watchtower as a band he greatly respected as well.

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Subrick
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:38 am 
 

Watershed has slowly but surely risen to my top 5 Opeth albums over the years. I'd honestly put it just below Blackwater Park and Ghost Reveries at number 3. It has this really unique sound compared to everything else in the pre-Heritage Opeth catalog, so much so that it's actually kind of hard to describe what the album sounds like in the grand scheme of Opeth's discography. The band eschewed a lot of the grooving, waltzy sway that much of their previous work had been based on and became more riff-oriented, and the riffs themselves are easily the heaviest the band's ever written. Even moreso than My Arms, Your Hearse or even Blackwater Park, this is the bleakest and darkest the band has ever sounded, and you just get this profound, overwhelming feeling of sadness throughout the entire album. While Watershed may have the least amount of death metal moments out of every Opeth album, the extreme sections here are the closest the band has ever come to sounding "brutal". It's a perfect sort of send off to what the band used to be.
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Heavynation
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:38 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:05 am 
 

Never had listened to this Cyclone Temple. Pure thrash. Reminds me of the early 90s, and the production reminds me of BLIND by Corrosion of Conformity. Wish I had listened to this at the time. Really nice thrash.

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MawBTS
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:16 am
Posts: 801
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:03 am 
 

HamburgerBoy wrote:
The bit where they say Black Prophecies is the direction the band was headed in is interesting to note as well.


As is "If there was one member that was really dissenting on the music that we were playing, then that person would be replaced."

I assume this was before Don Doty left?

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