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acid_bukkake
SAD!

Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:45 am
Posts: 1194
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:10 pm 
 

raumr wrote:
PayPal is slightly different to me. It's almost like a public service, moving money from one place to another.

Which it does for a profit. Companies are allowed to have standards for who they do business with.
Quote:
Them shutting down NS labels might not seem big, but imagine if it was some corporation with a near monopoly, then shutting down their services to people. Then their lives would be ruined.

Then alternate sources, commonly referred to as "competitors," would arise.
Quote:
It would as if the government punished them for a crime, except...

No. No exceptions granted because it's nothing at all like a government unless it has influential ties to the government.
Quote:
Granted, this might be a slippery slope fallacy, but I can see a future of the internet where this kind of power would be in the hand of a few privately owned corporations.

As do I (a youth filled with cyberpunk movies does that to you), but to think that one of these competing companies wouldn't offer services that the others don't in order to increase their market share is a basic misunderstanding of how business works.

Here is PRODUCT/SERVICE. There is a need and/or want of PRODUCT/SERVICE, and somebody will find a way to fulfill that need/want. Others see this, feel they could do it better, and become competitors.

If PRODUCT/SERVICE has a market? There will always be more than one hand reaching into it.
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Temple Of Blood
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:16 am
Posts: 1948
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:14 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Saying "slippery slope" anything is a worthless argument. I could easily say that allowing more Nazis to keep freely doing business will only lead to a further mainstreaming of their views and thus lead to more hate crimes and racism, and that would be exactly as valid as your doomsday crying about how they're about to start banning Pestilence albums retroactively because of some shit the singer said on the internet. We could go around and around forever and it's all pointless because it's obvious what PayPal intended by this. What motive would they have to look back at one lyric in a Death song and go "alright, banned, fuck yeah"?


Their motive once it came to their attention would be, "we don't want to promote hate". In the case of Manowar, it's plain as day to see the sexism. So, as we can see from the accusations in this thread, you're either for banning them or you are clearly a bigot yourself.

Why don't Paypal actually spell out what they intend instead of relying on weasel words? You know, put actual thought into it. You completely side-stepped my suggestion before.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:21 pm 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
Their motive once it came to their attention would be, "we don't want to promote hate". In the case of Manowar, it's plain as day to see the sexism. So, as we can see from the accusations in this thread, you're either for banning them or you are clearly a bigot yourself.

Why don't Paypal actually spell out what they intend instead of relying on weasel words? You know, put actual thought into it. You completely side-stepped my suggestion before.


Anyone with even a slight degree of perceptiveness can see that this is just in line with everything else in the US now in that it's responding to white supremacy, racism, etc which is in the news all the time now. Nobody wants to be associated with that stuff. That's all this is. You're being deliberately obtuse here.
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Temple Of Blood
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:16 am
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:21 pm 
 

BastardHead wrote:
Man you have deliberately missed/avoided every single point since this thread started, and it's a long standing pattern of yours. You are just so rabidly "anti-SJW" that even fucking punishing Nazis makes you squirm


You don't have many good points, frankly. Speaking of missing points, I said I was fine with private companies banning Nazi stuff. Go back and re-read, He-who-lacks-self-awareness.

Your point is well-taken about the PMRC labels being a compromise to a full rating system though. That's still not even close to being as bad as trying to block bank transfers.
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Last edited by Temple Of Blood on Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Woolie_Wool
Facets of Predictability

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:56 pm
Posts: 2250
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:29 pm 
 

androdion wrote:
pale_horse wrote:
As I understand it they’re banning labels who are selling NS stuff.

For real?! But isn't Paypal a US company? How come they're enforcing such a thing?


"Freedom of speech" only protects you from the state. PayPal is a private enterprise and if they think doing business with labels that distribute or are believed to distribute (and from the perspective of executives whose primary concern is making more money for PayPal, being a Nazi sympathizer and being perceived by others as one are exactly the same) Nazi music makes them look bad, then they'll refuse to do business with such labels. It doesn't matter if it's fair, or if a label "deserved" it, or whether a particular label is actually distributing Nazi music or not, such concerns are utterly trivial compared to the prospect of bad optics and lost money. PayPal isn't some organization devoted to some noble cause, it's a machine for making money. Nazi associations are bad for business. If that means cutting off certain record labels, too bad.
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BastardHead
Worse than the PMRC

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:40 pm 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
I said I was fine with private companies banning Nazi stuff.


And yet you've done nothing but whine about it because of some hysterical hypothetical situation where "banning Nazi stuff" turns into "banning everything".

Another service can always start up and cater to Nazis if they want to, I won't like it and I'll hope they fail, but there's nothing stopping Nazi dipshits from conducting their business online as of right now. Paypal shutting them out just means they'll need to find another route, not that Death and Manowar are on the chopping block. It's patently absurd to think so and I know you know that. It's just the same disingenuous concern trolling you always do, trying to catch lefties in a gotcha. Just pack up and shut up, we can all see right through your shit.
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androdion
Metal freak

Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:34 am
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:47 pm 
 

Woolie_Wool wrote:
"Freedom of speech" only protects you from the state. PayPal is a private enterprise and if they think doing business with labels that distribute or are believed to distribute (and from the perspective of executives whose primary concern is making more money for PayPal, being a Nazi sympathizer and being perceived by others as one are exactly the same) Nazi music makes them look bad, then they'll refuse to do business with such labels. It doesn't matter if it's fair, or if a label "deserved" it, or whether a particular label is actually distributing Nazi music or not, such concerns are utterly trivial compared to the prospect of bad optics and lost money. PayPal isn't some organization devoted to some noble cause, it's a machine for making money. Nazi associations are bad for business. If that means cutting off certain record labels, too bad.

I posted that when I woke up, now I see you're right in your assessment and that it was naive to say such a thing. I don't want to participate in the back and forth that's happening right now so I'll go my way.
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Temple Of Blood
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:01 pm 
 

BastardHead wrote:
Temple Of Blood wrote:
I said I was fine with private companies banning Nazi stuff.


And yet you've done nothing but whine about it because of some hysterical hypothetical situation where "banning Nazi stuff" turns into "banning everything".


So you ignore what I actually say and invent new things I never actually said. I guess it's easy to convict people of being Nazis when those are the rules.

You see only what you want to see, which is exactly the danger with people like you having any power, corporate or government, or even over some tiny corner in our beloved metal scene.

Quote:
Paypal shutting them out just means they'll need to find another route, not that Death and Manowar are on the chopping block. It's patently absurd to think so and I know you know that. It's just the same disingenuous concern trolling you always do, trying to catch lefties in a gotcha. Just pack up and shut up, we can all see right through your shit.


I'm not being disingenuous or doing concern trolling. I'm sincere in thinking that labelling so many as "Nazis" and being so afraid of Nazis in 2018 is laughably stupid. I'm also sincere in noting that tech companies often follow their policies in lock step with one another. I'm also sincere in saying I don't want to hurt the metal scene in general, even among bands I'm personally not interested in. I'm also sincere in saying that anyone in 2018 who is a Nazi is an idiot, but they are far from the only idiots around. They just mindless read from a different script than the one you mindlessly recite from.
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Abominatrix
Harbinger of Metal

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:15 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:21 pm 
 

It's interesting how the internet has mainstreamed a lot of subculture in recent years, including nS stuff.
Granted it wasn't my first contact with that scene, but it was pretty close, and it helped to kind of fuel a morbid fascination with it that I had for a time in the late 90s/early 2000s.
It's only gotten more prominent since then. You can find this stuff online as easy as you can find Britney Spears or whatever, and that's kind of weird, no?


Not just from a current perspective, but comparing it to the scene a couple of decades or more ago.
A guy I know recently wrote a review of the film The Green Room and went off on a tangent about NS skinheads being a "subculture of a subculture" and how they had their own communities, their own mailorder distros, their own record labels, their own online forums, etc, and it's certainly true. it's a very insular community that's suddenly been shoved up into the light of day. Temple over there said "wake up!", and while I know this wasn't at all his meaning, I think that's exactly what has happened: people have woken up to suddenly find this stuff is right at their doorstep and they never even realised it until now. Of course some (many) private businesses are going to react with trepidation or horror or outright refusal. Why wouldn't they? Remember how stuff used to be done before Paypal? Most of these distros didn't take credit cards, either; you had to go to the bank and get a money order to send them, and you bet it wasn't usually made out to "WAR 88 Records" or some shit, it was made out to some guy's name or something equally inoccuous.

These guys should all hate paypal anyway. It's just another representation of the ZOG-controlled banking system after all. :lol: Why give them business?

Of course I don't know what labels specifically have been targeted or even why, in this case, but I submit there's probably some kind of appeal system in place and that there's nothing wrong with anyone who feels he is innocent putting his case to paypal. In the end though paypal is just a convenience and one that NS guys, just like almost everyone else, have been eager to jump on board and take advantage of. Now we're seeing (and after all, it still is a rather new thing; kinks still being worked out etc) that after all, it may not be a benefit to everyone under the sun.
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Woolie_Wool
Facets of Predictability

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:56 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:31 pm 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
I'm not being disingenuous or doing concern trolling. I'm sincere in thinking that labelling so many as "Nazis" and being so afraid of Nazis in 2018 is laughably stupid. I'm also sincere in noting that tech companies often follow their policies in lock step with one another. I'm also sincere in saying I don't want to hurt the metal scene in general, even among bands I'm personally not interested in. I'm also sincere in saying that anyone in 2018 who is a Nazi is an idiot, but they are far from the only idiots around. They just mindless read from a different script than the one you mindlessly recite from.


You think they're just a bunch of "idiots" mindlessly reading from a script? They've gone from being a bunch of bitter old men and edgy nerdboys on the internet to electing Donald Trump president and radicalizing a good 20-30% of the US population. They held a gigantic rally where they screamed "Jews will not replace us!" and a terrorist killed anti-fascists with a car. The president is a crypto-fascist, the VP and AG are definitely fascist, most of the Congressional Republicans and some of the Democrats are now fascist enablers. We haven't learned shit from the 20th century.
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So Kerry King is married to an attention whoring, "intersectional feminist" InstaSlut with a cat fixation. Go figure.

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pale_horse
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:10 pm 
 

raumr wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
[...] which is what they're allowed to do as a business. Not like it's the government cracking down on art.

PayPal is slightly different to me. It's almost like a public service, moving money from one place to another.

This is an interesting point. Maybe they should be regulated like a utility. Are they regulated by FDIC or anything now?
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acid_bukkake
SAD!

Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:45 am
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:18 pm 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
You don't have many good points, frankly.

Pot. Kettle. Say hi.
Quote:
Speaking of missing points, I said I was fine with private companies banning Nazi stuff.

Yet here we are, arguing over whether or not a private company banning Nazi stuff is a good step or a bad step.

It's not even that I necessarily disagree, either, but your argument is severely underwhelming. What would stop PayPal from not allowing apolitical death metal bands to use it? Logic and critical thinking. It doesn't take much thought to see Cannibal Corpse or Disgorge or [BRUTAL GORE BAND HERE] as satire or parody, in the same way it doesn't take much effort to see "Springtime For Hitler" in the same light.
Quote:
Your point is well-taken about the PMRC labels being a compromise to a full rating system though. That's still not even close to being as bad as trying to block bank transfers.

You're right. It's worse. A government entity demanding restrictions on art is WAY FUCKING WORSE than a private company dealing in commerce deciding not to back Neo-Nazis. The former affects all artists, from "fuck the taste out of your mouth" Prince to John goddamn Denver. The latter affects only people interested in legitimately spreading hatred and racism.

Please, though, do continue trying to equate the two.
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TheLoneForest
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:16 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:21 pm 
 

Mass Suicide wrote:
Banning anything slightly related to NS shouldn't be problem for this community here, right?


It's only a problem for the spineless. Music should have no censorship, regardless of what politics you follow

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tahu157
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:22 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:51 pm 
 

This discussion is great and all but have we confirmed that NS stuff is actually the reason Purity Through Fire got banned? At a quick glance their current roster doesn't seem to have any NSBM bands that I can see.

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Zodijackyl
Has psudo-intelligence

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:31 pm 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
That's still not even close to being as bad as trying to block bank transfers.


They're not blocking bank transfers, though. As the OP says, the label is still accepting bank transfers, in addition to several other major companies competing payment services. WTC still accepts credit cards. This is just one payment processor.

This seems to be focused on German labels who sell material which is banned/illegal there. While I think Germany's censorship is absurd (pun intended) it seems that the labels affected are all German and sell material which may be banned. Several of these labels released/sell Nekrokrist SS albums, which might be a red flag, based on name alone. As someone pointed out, Hells Headbangers still accepts Paypal and sells Absurd and Frangar albums.
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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:41 pm 
 

tahu157 wrote:
This discussion is great and all but have we confirmed that NS stuff is actually the reason Purity Through Fire got banned? At a quick glance their current roster doesn't seem to have any NSBM bands that I can see.


The first page of CDs in their distro includes Frangar, Spear of Longinus, Fanisk, Stahlfront, etc.
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pfk505
Metal newbie

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:20 am 
 

I like plenty of NSBM. But Paypal, as a private business, should be absolutely free to not associate itself with whoever it wants. Simple as that. There is no injustice in that.

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tahu157
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:22 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:34 am 
 

Zodijackyl wrote:
tahu157 wrote:
This discussion is great and all but have we confirmed that NS stuff is actually the reason Purity Through Fire got banned? At a quick glance their current roster doesn't seem to have any NSBM bands that I can see.


The first page of CDs in their distro includes Frangar, Spear of Longinus, Fanisk, Stahlfront, etc.

Ah, right. I forget that most labels are also distros.

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into_the_pit
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:27 am 
 

you guys are aware that this is all about the german paypal branch banning german NSBM/WP labels/distros from business we're talking about, right?! both operate well within german jurisdiction, which definitely bans certain symbols, items and so forth. all of them distribute and/or release items that fall under the infamous penal § 86a ("use/display of signs of unconstitutional organisations"), which prohibits certain items from proliferation (especially commercial sale). by the way, these items are not illegal to own privately, they are illegal to display, advertize or broadcast publicly, or to make them accessible to others, especially on a large scale (= manufacturing, trade/sale etc.). nobody goes to jail for owning and playing skrewdriver or graveland records at home.
there is no doubt about that and this has nothing to with your precious freedom of speech. for me it's weird to see that the paypal=private company argument seems to be more accessible to some (mostly US) people than simple german penal law.
I'm pretty sure paypal didn't just start investigating some russian or ukrainian NSBM records on DTB by themselves, because at the end of the day this is business for them = $$$. however, if someone reports those labels to paypal (keep in mind that this is more than simple violation of terms) and they don't act upon that accordingly, they might get into all kinds of trouble, not least legal trouble due to negligent or even deliberate complicity, let alone it might harm their business.
not siding with anyone here, it's hard facts, guys. so stop whining!

btw, those labels, or at least some of them, have already established other payment options pretty quickly, so whatever.

edit: FOR DECADES hardly any government or law enforcement agencies (or private banks facilitating bank transfers to buy from these guys, for that matter) cared about these labels/distros as long as they operated truly underground (spreading xeroxed mailorder lists, sending cash in a letter etc.) because they lacked interest, capacities, or evidence regarding them. once you go overground, don't be surprised at the sudden backlash or repressive measures. seriously, these guys know exactly what they do.
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Bingewolf
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:23 am 
 

This is hilarious... If you feel so strongly about your NS beliefs, then put your credit card down. It is not at all surprising that PayPal decided to cut transactions from racist businesses as they are a huge digital business. If you don't feel comfortable putting your credit card down, then maybe you should question what you are buying!

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Acrobat
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:37 am 
 

It reminds me of an old poem:

'First the virtue-signalling liberal cucks came for the NSBM bands, and I did not speak out - because I was not an NSBM fan'.

Act now, guys! Before they ban metal!
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Methuen
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:54 am 
 

Funny side of this whole thing for me - who'd want their payments to some dodgy (and locally likely semi-legal) German NS friendly distro being tracked via PayPal & associated banking houses ? Wouldn't they want to keep that kind of thing quiet ? I mean, No Colours (for example), and some of their bands specifically, are on a German government watchlist as it is - why would someone want to risk ending up on a list somewhere themselves ?

Funny bunch.

Also in the (British) news this week - a bakery was cleared of half a dozen crimes against humanity (they'd refused to bake a cake with a slogan supporting gay marriage) - a private business can chose the business it wants to do. If you don't like how they do business, do business with someone else.

Send cash / cheques to your chosen kvlt-points distribution. No-one can stop you doing that.
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Runko
Metal newbie

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:03 am 
 

Am I dreaming or is there an actual conversation taking place about whether or not a private business gets to choose who to do business with?

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Methuen
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:22 am 
 

Runko wrote:
Am I dreaming or is there an actual conversation taking place about whether or not a private business gets to choose who to do business with?


Some grind fans appear to be worried that "first they came for Graveland's distributor...."
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tomcat_ha
Minister of Boiling Water

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:23 am 
 

well based on that NWN thread a couple labels obviously dabble in NS stuff but idk about banning WTC.

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pale_horse
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:36 am
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:07 am 
 

Runko wrote:
Am I dreaming or is there an actual conversation taking place about whether or not a private business gets to choose who to do business with?

It doesn’t. See the civil rights act.
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Bingewolf
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:19 pm 
 

I can't speak on the entire WTC roster but, to me, it's no surprise the label behind GBK has been banned. When you put out one of the most infamous NS bands of all time, don't be surprised if people get the idea that your label supports NS ideas...

And, for the record, financial institutions absolutely can choose who they want to do business with. For instance, many people who work in the 'adult industry' have trouble finding places to bank. In fact, PayPal shuts down accounts that are related to that business as well. PayPal also frequently shuts down accounts they find related to nationalist groups. This topic has been given extensive amount of ink in the US over the last 2 years. It's much deeper than just record labels.

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wraithlike
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:20 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:30 pm 
 

No Colours? Someone mentioned No Colours, I didn't know they were NS affiliated? Just how bad is it? All I knew them for was the Intestine Baalism CDs I got way back when. That's kind of a shame, just precisely for that. It was never easy to find IB stuff.

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Rottir
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:48 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:36 pm 
 

I don't care about any of these bands or labels or Nazis or whatever boogeyman you want to dredge up, but it is fucking hilarious to see the equity liberals in this thread trotting out lame, alt-right/libertarian canards to justify their self-righteousness. Do you have any principles beyond what agrees with your malformed political sensibilities? I'm having trouble figuring out what mentally and emotionally distinguishes you chode-munchers from the average chinos-and-polos suburban turds who would enjoy metal 'if it wasn't for all that screaming'.

Yes, PayPal can do whatever they want as a private company potentially informed by legal penalty, but no, you're not a fucking Nazi sympathizer if such arbitrary language worries you, especially when a shit-ton of benign, apolitical metal bands have violent imagery or discriminatory lyrics. There is still a place for liberal principles and values in metal that exceeds the emotional safety of particular individuals, and it's perfectly fine to defend it.

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k311250
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:14 am
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:58 pm 
 

Rottir wrote:
I don't care about any of these bands or labels or Nazis or whatever boogeyman you want to dredge up, but it is fucking hilarious to see the equity liberals in this thread trotting out lame, alt-right/libertarian canards to justify their self-righteousness. Do you have any principles beyond what agrees with your malformed political sensibilities? I'm having trouble figuring out what mentally and emotionally distinguishes you chode-munchers from the average chinos-and-polos suburban turds who would enjoy metal 'if it wasn't for all that screaming'.

Yes, PayPal can do whatever they want as a private company potentially informed by legal penalty, but no, you're not a fucking Nazi sympathizer if such arbitrary language worries you, especially when a shit-ton of benign, apolitical metal bands have violent imagery or discriminatory lyrics. There is still a place for liberal principles and values in metal that exceeds the emotional safety of particular individuals, and it's perfectly fine to defend it.

It's funny how people like you claim to be neutral yet you are clearly siding with the nazis. Everything you said is just bullshit. The "benign, apolitical metal bands" that "have violent imagery" aren't really promoting violence. The same way a gore film isn't promoting murdering your neighboors. Cannibal Corpse lyrics aren't for real, only a child or someone really dense would think so. On the other hand, nazis actually stand for what they say and they have no right to voice their shitty opinions. There's a huge difference and the fact that you can't see it is what makes you a nazi sympathizer who's always siding with the oppressor while claiming to be neutral. You can't be neutral to situations of injustice, if you do you are part of the problem.

wraithlike wrote:
No Colours? Someone mentioned No Colours, I didn't know they were NS affiliated? Just how bad is it? All I knew them for was the Intestine Baalism CDs I got way back when. That's kind of a shame, just precisely for that. It was never easy to find IB stuff.

It's pretty bad. They have released a ton of NSBM: Graveland, Absurd, Satanic Warmaster, Judas Iscariot, Nokturnal Mortum...

https://www.discogs.com/es/label/32541- ... rs-Records

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Wilytank
Not a Flying Toy

Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:21 am
Posts: 5077
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:32 pm 
 

k311250 wrote:
They have released a ton of NSBM: Graveland, Absurd, Satanic Warmaster, Judas Iscariot, Nokturnal Mortum...


Judas Iscariot have nothing to do with NSBM. :roll:
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booK_of_blood wrote:
booK_of_blood wrote:
Khanus' sound and aesthetics both seem pretty singular to me; I doubt whether any parallels can be drawn between the former and any other band out there...


The most ridiculous claim ever made, this should be a classic signature, but I'm too lazy...



Last.fm

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Bingewolf
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 pm
Posts: 232
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:29 pm 
 

Yes, No Colours has released a ton of NS music over the years - I would levy a guess that they are the biggest NS label in the metal world. Now, the interesting thing here is that they've also released a bunch of non-NS bands. There have been several notable bands who got signed to big labels, got big tours/festivals and then faced huge backlash when it was learned that No Colours had released earlier albums (Dimmu comes to mind).

I believe that they have distanced themselves from NS bands over the years but there was a time where it was much more typical for this to happen in black metal circles. That said, No Colours releasing Absurd albums speaks for itself. If you're not somewhat open to those beliefs, you wouldn't release that band.


Rottir wrote:
I don't care about any of these bands or labels or Nazis or whatever boogeyman you want to dredge up, but it is fucking hilarious to see the equity liberals in this thread trotting out lame, alt-right/libertarian canards to justify their self-righteousness. Do you have any principles beyond what agrees with your malformed political sensibilities? I'm having trouble figuring out what mentally and emotionally distinguishes you chode-munchers from the average chinos-and-polos suburban turds who would enjoy metal 'if it wasn't for all that screaming'.

Yes, PayPal can do whatever they want as a private company potentially informed by legal penalty, but no, you're not a fucking Nazi sympathizer if such arbitrary language worries you, especially when a shit-ton of benign, apolitical metal bands have violent imagery or discriminatory lyrics. There is still a place for liberal principles and values in metal that exceeds the emotional safety of particular individuals, and it's perfectly fine to defend it.


Being anti-Nazi is not a political belief... There is a common theme that pops up in any thread here that references NS bands. The argument that metal bands using violent imagery/lyrics/themes being the same thing as a band singing about racist beliefs is completely asinine. As k311250 stated, there's a huge difference between the two and, if you can't see that, you are 1) dense or 2) a sympathizer claiming to be neutral.

You are the one coming in playing the liberal vs. conservative card. Playing those cards and making this kind of stance is a dogwhistle for what you actually believe. And guess what, go ahead and listen to your NSBM - but, again, don't be surprised if businesses don't want to be associated with your favorite racist bands. That's what happened here and what this thread is discussing. Not every debate needs to turn into "liberal vs. conservative".

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CrippledLucifer
Metalhead

Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 5:08 am
Posts: 424
Location: Denmark
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:59 pm 
 

raumr wrote:
You can hate NSBM all you want, but their labels are essentially being denied a service for ideological reasons.


Ironic is it.

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Earthcubed
The Great Fearmonger

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
Posts: 4366
Location: eccaira nare epë Anar
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:04 pm 
 

I don't have a problem with PayPal doing this for a number of reasons, but I think those of you making the "PayPal would never ban a label that sold Manowar or Cannibal Corpse because nobody could be that stupid" have an incredibly, almost comically naive faith in people's ability to study a band's political content with reason and probity.

A few years ago, Guitar World magazine had a message board, which I posted on. I remember when two of their editors argued that in the future the magazine shouldn't feature Slayer tabs or interviews, on the basis of the lyrics to "Angel of Death," which they insisted were pro-Nazi. Needless to say, these particular editors were overruled by their coworkers, but that's just an example of how things which should be obvious (like, Slayer not being NS) are not as obvious you'd think.

That being said, PayPal is free to do business as they see fit, and in this case they also have certain German legal obligations they need to abide by. Moreover, even if they did go down the oft-mythical slippery slope and ban a label that carried Slayer/Manowar/Pig Destroyer/whatever, PayPal would just be one option gone. And as has already been stated throughout the thread, PayPal has competitors and nobody needs to worry about their favorite bands going bankrupt in the event PayPal blacklists their distro.
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iamntbatman wrote:
On Friday I passed an important milestone in my teaching career: a student shat himself

FloristOfVampyrism wrote:
That wasn't meant as a k.o. though, he specifically targeted an area of the cerebellum which, if ruptured, renders you a Jehovah's witness indefinitely

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exsiccation
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:49 pm
Posts: 202
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:50 am 
 

I have zero problems with de-platforming racists and extremists. There are a thousand and one payment processors out there. They don't have to use PayPal.

I also fully disagree with the arguments around "who gets to decide what constitutes hate speech". Come on, guys. There's a pretty clear line between bands that espouse Nazi hate politics and those that don't. The false equivalence and slippery slope arguments are logical fallacies for a reason.

It's less fortunate that certain stores and labels are getting caught up in it, even if they don't share those views... but in that case, maybe they should take a harder look at who they do business with. Companies absolutely can and should be put under scrutiny and face consequences for the activities of their partners and associates.

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Leader_OCola
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:58 pm
Posts: 204
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:45 am 
 

paypal has had their hands involved in a laundry list of shady dealings and individuals in all areas, industries, etc over the years. This seems an odd place to draw the line.

Honestly, I'd rather they focus first on actually working to get scammers prosecuted.

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Bingewolf
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 pm
Posts: 232
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:22 pm 
 

CrippledLucifer wrote:
raumr wrote:
You can hate NSBM all you want, but their labels are essentially being denied a service for ideological reasons.


Ironic is it.


And... /thread. :lol:

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Zodijackyl
Has psudo-intelligence

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 7280
Location: Longmont Potion Castle
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:12 pm 
 

into_the_pit wrote:
you guys are aware that this is all about the german paypal branch banning german NSBM/WP labels/distros from business we're talking about, right?! both operate well within german jurisdiction, which definitely bans certain symbols, items and so forth. all of them distribute and/or release items that fall under the infamous penal § 86a ("use/display of signs of unconstitutional organisations"), which prohibits certain items from proliferation (especially commercial sale). by the way, these items are not illegal to own privately, they are illegal to display, advertize or broadcast publicly, or to make them accessible to others, especially on a large scale (= manufacturing, trade/sale etc.). nobody goes to jail for owning and playing skrewdriver or graveland records at home.
there is no doubt about that and this has nothing to with your precious freedom of speech. for me it's weird to see that the paypal=private company argument seems to be more accessible to some (mostly US) people than simple german penal law.
I'm pretty sure paypal didn't just start investigating some russian or ukrainian NSBM records on DTB by themselves, because at the end of the day this is business for them = $$$. however, if someone reports those labels to paypal (keep in mind that this is more than simple violation of terms) and they don't act upon that accordingly, they might get into all kinds of trouble, not least legal trouble due to negligent or even deliberate complicity, let alone it might harm their business.
not siding with anyone here, it's hard facts, guys. so stop whining!

btw, those labels, or at least some of them, have already established other payment options pretty quickly, so whatever.

edit: FOR DECADES hardly any government or law enforcement agencies (or private banks facilitating bank transfers to buy from these guys, for that matter) cared about these labels/distros as long as they operated truly underground (spreading xeroxed mailorder lists, sending cash in a letter etc.) because they lacked interest, capacities, or evidence regarding them. once you go overground, don't be surprised at the sudden backlash or repressive measures. seriously, these guys know exactly what they do.


Well said. This explains it well.
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TheConqueror1 wrote:
I think it shows that Zodijackyl has psudo-intelligence.

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narsilianshard
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:22 pm
Posts: 1967
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:41 pm 
 

For those making the "arbitrary guidelines are terrifying!" arguments, have some examples:

"What we deem offensive is probably about what you would expect." - Amazon's Content Guidelines
Anything that is "offensive or profane" is in violation. - Bandcamp's Terms of Use
"offensive or obscene" - Spotify
"obscene, pornographic, indecent, lewd - Visa

Every major online service you will ever use has arbitrary guidelines when it comes to being able to ban/remove content. Some of them even include phrases like "we can disable/ban you from the service without a given reason." If this never worried you before, but all of a sudden a bunch of racists get affected and you're suddenly worried, you should probably ask yourself why that is.

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PurpleDoom
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:39 pm
Posts: 300
Location: Gazing into the deep
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:29 pm 
 

I guess I was just taken aback because I had never thought of WTC as a racist label. There's certainly justification for Bandcamp to "deplatform" the business on the basis of the Absurd and Grand Belial's Key releases (though I'm not sure they even sell the Absurd material anymore? All of it's banned in Germany already, at least.) But the way some people are brushing aside complaints with "it's just a bunch of racists getting affected, why do you care?" you'd think they're Resistance Records 2.0 with a primarily Nazi skinhead customer base, not the label that popular, high-profile black metal bands like Horna and Sargeist are signed to. The offending material constitutes a tiny portion of their overall catalog, and most of it isn't sold anymore (at least not directly through WTC.) I can't claim to know everything they have in their webstore, but I haven't run up against any records I know are banned there.

narsilianshard wrote:
For those making the "arbitrary guidelines are terrifying!" arguments, have some examples:

Of course you can't escape a degree of subjective judgment when deciding what material violates company policy. But I also imagine that for most of the companies you listed, the rules would be applied on a more individual level, whereas here you have a broad decision that's arguably affecting more non-racists than racists in terms of both the signed bands and the customer base. For better or for worse, a sizable segment of the black metal scene takes an "apolitical" (read: tolerant of far-right politics) stance when it comes to who they work with, and you could probably dig up some NS link somewhere for a large number of otherwise unaffiliated bands and labels. It's worth asking where the lines are drawn and who's drawing them.

EDIT: "more individual level" is kind of vague... by this, I mean I imagine things are probably banned on a release-by-release basis, rather than affecting an entire label. Of course, Paypal can't achieve that level of precision.

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