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Temple Of Blood
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:16 am
Posts: 2039
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:37 pm 
 

Quote:
This line made more sense in the 1980s, with the PMRC and the "Filthy Fifteen" and so on. There was real societal opposition to metal in those days.


Yeah, back when metal bands were becoming multi-millionaires. Bring back some of that "opposition", so that maybe we can have a better metal scene today.

Metal was hugely popular in the suburbs and flyover country. Even smaller cities had very large metal shows happen there. It was The Golden Age.

Compare dollars spent by the consumer towards metal at that time vs. the few outspoken "enemies of metal" and ask yourself how much net opposition there really was.

concern <> opposition

Quote:
I recall The Decline of Western Civilization part II painting metal in a really bad light.


Yes, by interviewing them and accurately showing them for the morons, drunks, druggies, and overgrown children that they were. Didn't require any "painting". It would require "painting" to not show it.

Quote:
Cannibal Corpse was getting heat for their "obscene" material


I know, that was terrifying when that one Republican criticized them. They sure got a lot of mileage/free press out of that one. They're heroes for enduring that horrible societal oppression. Too soon for statues?
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Ace_Rimmer
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 567
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:47 pm 
 

When I was a teen in the 80's there was some backlash against heavy metal music from parents and whatnot, my Dad always thought the "kill your parents" music I listened to was not good for me. Between listening to Metallica and playing D&D I was on the fast track to prison according to some adults. These days I hear metal riffage and songs as intro and outro music on all kinds of radio and TV shows and nobody really takes the evils of metal seriously.

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Element_man
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:37 am
Posts: 859
Location: Vancouver, Canada
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:55 pm 
 

This is totally off-topic and I don't mean to speak for Required Fields but I recall a previous thread where he mentioned being from an isolated, churchy part of Canada and it seemed like he'd gotten some blowback from his community. As a fellow Canadian born and raised in a smaller rural community I can relate a bit--there's still prejudice towards metalheads out there.
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BastardHead
Worse than the PMRC

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
Posts: 8887
Location: Elgin, Illinois
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:59 pm 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
stuff


lol I don't think you and I even disagree here. Metal was under some scrutiny but it'd be ridiculous to assume there was any legitimate "threat" to it. But even that level of tut-tutting has been nonexistent for eons now. So people getting bent out of shape and worried about an unimportant member of a band that hasn't been relevant in decades being a scapegoat for people to go after the entirety of metal is patently absurd.
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InnesI
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1104
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:15 pm 
 

I just had some classes about moral panic with my students and one of the things we got into was the moral panic surrounding metal music in the 80's. Often working hand in hand with the SRA debate (satanic ritual abuse). There's actually quite some material where people attack metal music for various reasons. Mostly because of the imagery as well as the sex and drugs part. In some cases leading to serious charges (the west memphis three being the most famous example) but in general only leading to young metal heads feeling alienated from society.

But then again all generations since the advent of the clear cut teen subcultures (roughly starting post WWII) has been met with more or less moral panic from some parts of the adult world. Elvis experienced the same thing (those hip movements!), The Beatles hairstyle, hippie culture, punk rock, video violence, rave culture, skinhead culture, video games, screen addiction, energy drinks etc.

It's not so much that the moral panic against metal was unique. It was a popular cultural movement and as such it also received a backlash from segments of society. Sure, some people could be said to be "enemies of metal", they might even have embraced that term themselves, but in reality they didn't really pose a threat to metal culture.

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demonomania
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:44 am
Posts: 379
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:25 pm 
 

"There are no enemies of metal" - just what the enemies of metal want us to think. Soon the true friends of metal will leave THE HALL unguarded.
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MawBTS
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:16 am
Posts: 746
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:00 pm 
 

Quote:
Sorry, but metal was never as controversial as is portrayed above. "rockstars were the edgiest thing ever" ... uh, no.


Your memories differ to mine.

After the Columbine school shooting, blame fell on "evil" entertainment: meaning South Park, violent videogames, and rock music. A senate hearing was conducted into whether games like Doom and Quake were training kids to kill. Marilyn Manson had concerts protested, and he ended up defending himself on The O'Reilly Factor. And God forbid you were band from Germany. You basically had to go on a little PR tour confirming that you weren't Nazis.

It was really bizarre and pathetic, looking back. When I was twelve, a kid I knew offered to give me mp3s of unbleeped Eminem songs, like he was a drug dealer or something. It didn't last long. After a year or so, 9/11 happened and put things back in their proper perspective.

Quote:
Soon the true friends of metal will leave THE HALL unguarded.


And the crib unguarded, apparently.

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Terri23
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:53 am
Posts: 2394
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:28 am 
 

A lot of discussion about Marilyn Manson here.

To the uninitiated masses, Marilyn Manson was heavy metal. He absolutely portrayed to a tee what heavy metal around the time of Columbine represented. He was even heavily blamed, along with heavy metal, German bands like Rammstein in particular. You guys are talking like they're separate things, but the reality is that according to the masses, which is what history is going to remember, it was metal.
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MawBTS
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:16 am
Posts: 746
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:38 am 
 

Yeah, the average person thinks loud guitars = metal. I get that. But if we're playing Joey's goofy "true metal" game then I don't believe they qualify.

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schizoid
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2004 8:35 am
Posts: 1348
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:32 am 
 

BastardHead wrote:
I recall The Decline of Western Civilization part II painting metal in a really bad light.


I've never heard of this previously, but lately YouTube has been really pushing me to watch this in my recommendations. Funny how algorithms work...
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Mass Suicide
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:32 am
Posts: 70
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:25 am 
 

No one in Europe associated Columbine with Metal subculture at that time. Maybe also because over here nobody thought that Marilyn Manson or KMFDM (and not Rammstein) are Metal bands.

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Woolie_Wool
Facets of Predictability

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:56 pm
Posts: 2105
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:13 pm 
 

true_death wrote:
MawBTS wrote:
Heavy metal is now invisible and nearly irrelevant. When it briefly catches the mainstream's attention (through something like Tenacious D in The Pick of Destiny or Metalocalypse) its "evil" elements are rendered comical, and played for laughs. Nobody in Middle America is seriously offended by it.


I think it has less to do with metal being invisible or irrelevant and more with a cultural shift we've seen in recent years, where people just aren't as offended/threatened by edgy or transgressive art in general. If you think about it, the edgier aspects of hip-hop culture and punk rock culture have been ridiculed and mocked to a much greater degree and on a much wider scale than anything related to metal has ever been...and similarly, seemingly offend virtually no "outsiders" anymore. This goes all the way down to horror films and even video games...despite the recent (exponential) rise in mass shootings in the US, you hardly ever hear anyone on either side seriously blame violent media/entertainment as the cause anymore.


Did people become inured to transgressive art or was the majority of metal never really all that transgressive in the first place, but merely put up an appearance of transgression? Christianity's moral and temporal authority has been in terminal decline since the late 19th century. Warriors and swords and dragons and monsters have been a staple in youth entertainment since the 1920s (indeed, a lot of metal is based on pre-WWII pulp fiction!). Overblown masculinity has been around since the ancient Sumerians in the 4th millennium BC.

In many ways hardcore was actually much more transgressive, attacking things that actually mattered to America's authorities. Too bad the music generally sucked.
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rexxz
Where's your band?

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 8949
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:17 pm 
 

Woolie_Wool wrote:

Did people become inured to transgressive art or was the majority of metal never really all that transgressive in the first place, but merely put up an appearance of transgression?


Nah, this is historical revisionism. Popular culture media from the late 60s to early 90s was obsessed with calling out metal for its deviant nature, all the way from the hippie drugs, rock n' roll era of the golden years to the violent, satanic and sometimes gory versions of latter day extreme metal. Of course it was transgressive. Do I need to remind you that there were multiple trials over certain metal bands' songs and their perceived influence on the youth of the day? It was reviled just like gangster rap was, come on.
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TrooperEd
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:18 pm
Posts: 1885
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:47 pm 
 

MawBTS wrote:
And God forbid you were band from Germany. You basically had to go on a little PR tour confirming that you weren't Nazis.


Wow, maybe this was the reason the US never got that Blind Guardian, Gamma Ray, Running Wild tour in 97 I keep trying (and failing) to meme..
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Lord_Jotun
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 5:02 pm
Posts: 2142
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:21 am 
 

rexxz wrote:
Woolie_Wool wrote:

Did people become inured to transgressive art or was the majority of metal never really all that transgressive in the first place, but merely put up an appearance of transgression?


Nah, this is historical revisionism. Popular culture media from the late 60s to early 90s was obsessed with calling out metal for its deviant nature, all the way from the hippie drugs, rock n' roll era of the golden years to the violent, satanic and sometimes gory versions of latter day extreme metal. Of course it was transgressive. Do I need to remind you that there were multiple trials over certain metal bands' songs and their perceived influence on the youth of the day? It was reviled just like gangster rap was, come on.


This is very true. It may have manifested differently and to variable extremes in different areas and such, but the prejudice was certainly real.
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Manwaring
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2003 12:08 pm
Posts: 34
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:10 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
In a country with a legal age of 18, something with a 17-year old is child porn. Hard to take the prehistoric American legal system seriously on such matters.


Read this and thought.

'Holy shit what random cuntface douche wrote this? I've not looked at these forums for years'

I'm both disgusted and nostalgic?
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Resident_Hazard
Possessed by Starscream's Ghost

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:33 pm
Posts: 2497
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:42 am 
 

HaPoStaPu wrote:
Not another one. What it wrong with these scumbags? Small cock? Just get some little people (as in midgets, NOT children, porn) or something.



I have a very scientific hypothesis on this:

Repressed sexual urges and anti-LGBTQ attitudes lead to perverse sexual attitudes, which tends to manifest itself in secret homosexual activity lumped with other issues (see: Ted Haggard). Granted, this is not perverse--a guy wanting to have sex with other guys is no big deal--unless you have surrounded yourself with a culture where it is a big deal or a "sin." This is the minor element, the major element is that represses sexuality and/or anti-LGBTQ attitudes tend to manifest in truly perverse or violent manners. Such as collections of child porn and child rape. See: Any given news about the Catholic Church, every anti-gay legislator, every anti-gay clergyman, etc.

Not discounting that religion may be what leads people to child rape, since Mohammad himself raped a 9-year-old girl.

So, in this case, was ol' Karl a hater of gays? My "research" says probably!
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HisZvironistOverlord
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:45 pm
Posts: 35
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:30 am 
 

It was planted on his computer by the enemies of metal.

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MawBTS
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:16 am
Posts: 746
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:58 am 
 

Quote:
Wow, maybe this was the reason the US never got that Blind Guardian, Gamma Ray, Running Wild tour in 97 I keep trying (and failing) to meme..


Columbine was '99. I don't know any details about that particular tour. It's generally a nightmare for European bands to tour the US (visas, transporting gear, etc), so one can imagine any number of reasons why it failed.

Quote:
Read this and thought.

'Holy shit what random cuntface douche wrote this? I've not looked at these forums for years'

I'm both disgusted and nostalgic?


I see where he's coming from - I doubt any of us could visually distinguish a 17 year old from an 18 year old with any accuracy, so where one draws the line is arbitrary. It's definitely in a different category to videos of freaking four year olds.

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LordStenhammar
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:46 am
Posts: 1367
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:38 am 
 

Their new guitarist is still about to be announced. It could be that Shankle dude?
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TrooperEd
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:18 pm
Posts: 1885
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:14 am 
 

MawBTS wrote:
Quote:
Wow, maybe this was the reason the US never got that Blind Guardian, Gamma Ray, Running Wild tour in 97 I keep trying (and failing) to meme..


Columbine was '99. I don't know any details about that particular tour. It's generally a nightmare for European bands to tour the US (visas, transporting gear, etc), so one can imagine any number of reasons why it failed.



That wasn't a real tour, it's just a constant complaint of mine that I'm sure people use as a bingo space with me. :lol: And Columbine really had nothing to do with my statement, it was more of my imagination of a lingering grudge.
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Mass Suicide
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:32 am
Posts: 70
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:46 am 
 

MawBTS wrote:
I see where he's coming from - I doubt any of us could visually distinguish a 17 year old from an 18 year old with any accuracy, so where one draws the line is arbitrary. It's definitely in a different category to videos of freaking four year olds.


Yes.

A grown up man getting turned on by a 16-17yrs young female with breasts etc. is not a pedophile, it's a biologically normal sexual attraction but still illegal in many Western societies (for various good reasons).

Pedophilia is being attracted to children before they reached puberty exclusively. True pedophiles are not attracted by adult women (or men).

Somewhere in between is the "Lolita" thing, which is highly questionable in my opinion (see "barely legal" in porn, as someone mentioned above).

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9511
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:44 am 
 

Let's not go with the "actually this is ephebephebephebephilia not technically pedophilia okay" hair-splitting nonsense. And let's also not try to insinuate that ogling 16 year olds is fine either.

This ^ is also not a suggestion.
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Mass Suicide
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:32 am
Posts: 70
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:49 am 
 

I clearly said that this is not ok. If you refer to "Hebephilia", then we're talking about people younger than 16. But in Europe, most age of consent is 16 (just like in Canada, afaik).

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Acrobat
Eric Olthwaite

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:53 am
Posts: 8017
Location: York, North Yorkshire
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:17 pm 
 

Let's see, maybe they're going to announce a cover band's guitarist, too, because it looks like Ross will still be touring with his solo band (of course, Shankle might be a choice, too, but ewwww his tone and playing haven't been good lately).

What's more is that fans can look forward to being one of a select few at these gigs due to £100 ticket prices. Manowar also had the visionary foresight to book their only two UK dates in the glamorous city of Birmingham... For reasons unbeknownst to anyone!
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Last edited by Acrobat on Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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InnesI
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1104
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:59 pm 
 

Mass Suicide wrote:
A grown up man getting turned on by a 16-17yrs young female with breasts etc. is not a pedophile, it's a biologically normal sexual attraction but still illegal in many Western societies (for various good reasons).

Pedophilia is being attracted to children before they reached puberty exclusively. True pedophiles are not attracted by adult women (or men).

Somewhere in between is the "Lolita" thing, which is highly questionable in my opinion (see "barely legal" in porn, as someone mentioned above).


Mass Suicide wrote:
I clearly said that this is not ok. If you refer to "Hebephilia", then we're talking about people younger than 16. But in Europe, most age of consent is 16 (just like in Canada, afaik).


This is a weird thing. Pedophilia is, as you say, about sexual attraction to children pre-puberty. However many countries define children by law as anyone below the age of 18. Therefore its a child in the sense of the law and in that sense pedophilia even though the person depicted in the pictures or film are in puberty or even, in some cases, already through puberty.

In Sweden the age of consent is 15. But by child, in regards to the law of child ponography, they mean anyone who has not fully gone through puberty or anyone below 18 years of age.

If I have interpreted the law correctly it is fine, according to the law, to have sex with a 15 year old but illegal to possess pictures of a sexual nature of a 15 year. So the definitions are somewhat floating. And being charged with child pornography will get you marked as a pedophile regardless of how developed the person is in the pictures.

What I find most disgusting, except the obvious of having children perform sexual activities, is that it often seems to include a large dose of humiliation and excessive force. Maybe its just that one hears about the worst cases but it seems to me that it is a more common perversion among pedophiles than among people at large.

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TrooperEd
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:18 pm
Posts: 1885
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:24 pm 
 

Today I learned that a) Hebephilia is a thing and that b) it is not an unhealthy attraction to Sarah Silverman or Fran Druscher.
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