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Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5998
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:45 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Indeed. Outside of only one heinous post, this community response has been decent, and I am grateful.

You spoke too soon, Morri. What a dumpster fire this thread has become.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 10528
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:29 am 
 

Derigin wrote:
You spoke too soon, Morri. What a dumpster fire this thread has become.

Thankfully the bigoted troll has been banned, so proper discussion can resume.
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Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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Jonpo
Hyperc6l6mb6wler

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:05 am
Posts: 7735
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:32 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Jonpo wrote:
This is disappointing. I just expected that Absu/Proscriptor wouldn't give a fuck about someone's chosen gender.

Small correction: gender isn't chosen, even by trans people. Sex and gender are two different things, which are usually aligned, but a transgender person is simply assigned the wrong sex at birth and undergoes transition (HRT, SRS, name changes, etc.) to re-align the two.


Just wanted to apologize for this. I'm working in a call center again and was trying to get my thoughts out quickly, but also tactfully.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 10528
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:36 am 
 

@ Jonpo: no problem.

InnesI wrote:
It's a big topic of discussion and its all about definitions. I won't get into that to much here because people tend to get offended by whatever one says on the topic. However its hardly about exterminating trans people as Melissa expressed it. Neither is it a literal inquisition. Its about redefining gender as to having to do with genitalia, actual biology, and not subjective feelings of belonging to another gender.

This is not what being trans is. Educate yourself before spouting off this garbage please. This is as outdated and nonsensical as thinking sexual orientation is a "choice".

Quote:
One can think whatever one wants about that (and its hardly the time or place to get into all that, my feelings, the intricacies of the subject etc). It won't
however change that a person is biologically male even if we call the person a woman. And it won't change the fact that even if the person is biologically male the person might feel uncomfortable in their body.

Sex and gender are two different things. It ain't that complicated.

Quote:
Point is, I don't mind Melissa being mad. She can be mad about whatever. I was reacting to the way she expressed herself. In general I think people expressing themselves in that sort of way (regardless of their views) are "lacking" in some way (sorry, I don't like the word lacking used in this way but I wasn't able to remember the right word that I was looking for).

So you were... ahem, offended by how she expressed her anger at policies that directly harm her? What is this pearl-clutching tone policing bullshit? :lol:
Melissa has the right to be mad at transphobia because it directly attacks and affects her. Anyone tut-tuting her for "wrongly" expressing that anger when all she did was use words on the internet can honestly fuck off.
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Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 35183
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:57 am 
 

The Trump administration also wants it to be OK for businesses to discriminate against trans people. That combined with this policy of redefining what gender/sex is at the federal level (a gross overreach), and numerous other things (Trans military ban, Mike Pence's record against LGBT people, the often unaddressed hate crimes against trans and other LGBT people, etc) are more than enough to be mad at and I think it's ludicrous to talk about tone in a situation like this.

It really affects no one if a trans person wants to be themselves. Any attempt by government bodies or authorities to interfere with that is bigotry. Sorry if you're more concerned with people being mean, though; sounds like you really have priorities in place...

Morrigan covered everything else very well though.
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Last edited by Empyreal on Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 35183
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:06 pm 
 

Derigin wrote:
To be fair to BasqueStorm, the trust in news sites (especially metal sites) in their claims about contacting someone and getting their responses is just no longer there. I've experienced it recently firsthand myself. A journalist can say many things, but I don't trust that what they say is completely true, and I would hope that we (as a whole) don't blindly accept such news without critically questioning its sources. It's entirely possible they did contact Absu, and the band was flippant about it. It's also just as likely they didn't contact the band, or they did and the response they got did not fit the narrative they wished to write. Until there is a statement that is public, I don't blame people for not taking what that news site claims at face value. It's perfectly fine to question this, and to want to wait for an official public statement (if any) from the band.

That "if any" bit is also pretty important. The band might not want to make any statement, and that's totally their choice. Some people might be fine with that, other people - especially fans - might take their silence as acceptance of guilt here, and trust instead and completely in Melissa's account. That's totally fine, too. The more the band stays silent on this, the higher the likelihood that more people will find their lack of a clear response as pretty scummy and purposefully opaque.


Well, true enough, that could have happened. It's not that I have an issue with waiting to see what happens, of course there'll be more info later if more people speak up about it. Personally I don't have any beef with anyone in the band or anything like that, but again, people are gonna talk and I hardly think anyone was jumping to any conclusions like "fuck these guys, boycott their music," or anything like that. Maybe a lot of the time it's almost futile to have a thread like this at all until more info's known. Most of what anybody says in here is speculation or just generalized commentary. Not denying that.
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CoconutBackwards
Bullet Centrist

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:02 pm
Posts: 1787
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:34 pm 
 

Quote:
Well, true enough, that could have happened. It's not that I have an issue with waiting to see what happens, of course there'll be more info later if more people speak up about it. Personally I don't have any beef with anyone in the band or anything like that, but again, people are gonna talk and I hardly think anyone was jumping to any conclusions like "fuck these guys, boycott their music," or anything like that. Maybe a lot of the time it's almost futile to have a thread like this at all until more info's known. Most of what anybody says in here is speculation or just generalized commentary. Not denying that.


I respect your opinion a lot on matters like this and while what you've said in this thread and in the thread about the band accused of rape (I can't remember their name at the moment) has definitely challenged my thinking at times I think a lot of it is my fault, because I read something you write and I immediately assume you're saying "fuck these guys".
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:44 pm 
 

That thread got out of hand and a lot of people were saying a lot of things about it. I'm sure I've said stuff in the past that seemed too extreme or whatever. Nothing wrong with trying to evolve thinking and grow in that way though. I'll probably quit posting about serious shit like this again after this thread.
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CoconutBackwards
Bullet Centrist

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:02 pm
Posts: 1787
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:47 pm 
 

Well, in my opinion you shouldn't.
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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 2187
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:48 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
This is not what being trans is. Educate yourself before spouting off this garbage please. This is as outdated and nonsensical as thinking sexual orientation is a "choice".


As I said, discussing this tends to get people's feelings raging and people often sink to replies like this using derogatory language. You seem to enjoy being rude to people.

What I wrote related to the article linked in the post Empyreal pointed me to. It was quite clear that this is what the article was about. I never said anything about how I viewed the topic at all (even though you seem to think they are my views and slander me for them). I even wrote that I wan't going to express my feeling on the topic.

The article Empyreal linked to: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/21/us/p ... ition.html

Morrigan wrote:
Sex and gender are two different things. It ain't that complicated.


As I said its all about definitions. And from what I've read (I did take a class in gender studies as it relates to schools and pupils) scientists and gender studies people aren't all in agreement on exactly what might be defined as gender. Most scientists seem to be of the opinion that ones gender is partly effected by ones biology and partly by ones social surrounding. One's sex is, in this view, purely biological. Then we have the gender studies people where some actually claim that gender is wholly separate from ones sex and others even claim one's sex is separate from biology! And of course the old school way of viewing it claims that it is all rooted in biology. So there are at least four main ways to look at it and a whole lot of subcategories within each. I remember reading a good article on this subject during this class. I might still have it. I'll see if I can find it and post a link to it.

Morrigan wrote:
So you were... ahem, offended by how she expressed her anger at policies that directly harm her? What is this pearl-clutching tone policing bullshit? :lol:
Melissa has the right to be mad at transphobia because it directly attacks and affects her. Anyone tut-tuting her for "wrongly" expressing that anger when all she did was use words on the internet can honestly fuck off.


I was reacting to the way she expressed herself, the words she used because they were wrong in what they conveyed. I think one should always react when someone says something that is not true. It's not about expressing her anger its about the way she does it. What's the problem with saying as it is? Why exaggerate and say things that are not true? That clearly doesn't bring any credibility to what she says and her opinions are easier to dismiss when they aren't correct. It's in her interest really.
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Last edited by InnesI on Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
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Location: Tyrn Gorthad
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:49 pm 
 

k311250 wrote:
A trans woman just told you she had a problem with her band members because they are a bunch of transphobes. When asked, these guys joked about it instead of explaining what the situation was. Your first reaction is to keep repeating "we don't know the facts" like a mantra, which is just a lazy excuse to keep perpetuating these kind of behaviours and do nothing.

I'm not even telling you to stop listening to Absu (I know for a fact I won't stop listening to Tara) but the lack of empathy and human decency in the metal community is fucking depressing.


Just to clarify, I definitely take her word for it. She's under no obligation to even say anything further, but there are multiple people in the band and she didn't specify who was targeting her with transphobia, only that it happened and that it was the reason she was out of the band. So while I'm fine with saying that whoever was being an asshole was, in fact, an asshole, and the non-reply from the Absu camp speaks volumes even IF it's coming from some fucked up place of not-all-there-ness, I'm not ready to label everyone in the band a horrible transphobe until details are known. She used the plural "bandmates," but she also said this happened last year, so her reference to transphobes might be any combination of Proscriptor, Ezezu and Gunslut.
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TrooperEd
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:18 pm
Posts: 2115
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:53 pm 
 

TheHellstorm wrote:
Just came by to say that "Tolerare" in Latin means "To suffer through". Don't mistake tolerance with unapologetic praise. Vis Crom's claims that Absu is disbanded have no ground in reality, unless Proscriptor explicitly says so. As for the claims of "transphobia"... Well, you cannot love everyone, can you? Plus to all the poor souls lamenting that there is so much intolerance and bad shit in Metal scene" why are you here in the first place? Metal and especially Black Metal was invented to cultivate the Evil in man. As simple as that. What part of it don't you get? You think them peeps in Norway killed each other or burnt churches for publicity, in the name of tolerance, for being hip or whatever concept of reality is allowed in your safespace bubble? Nope. They did it to bring back the danger. Like real danger, rather than hood-mask-incense "danger" of today's pussy ass scene. Think of it the next time you describe yourself as a Black Metalhead.


This might be an interesting post if your obvious lord and master, Varg Vierkerness, had long dismissed what you think makes black metal special as Euronymous idiotically shit-talking and posing.
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theposega
Mezla

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:42 pm
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Location: Neo-Allegheny City
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:16 pm 
 

iamntbatman wrote:
Gunslut


what
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chugging_pus
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:59 pm
Posts: 210
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:26 pm 
 

It doesn’t appear that Absu has actually broken up. Maybe the band is making no comments because they might be in the process of suing Melissa for falsely stating they broke up? Stranger things can happen.

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tahu157
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:22 pm
Posts: 1008
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:37 pm 
 

theposega wrote:
iamntbatman wrote:
Gunslut


what

Absu's live drummer, until quite recently.

https://www.metal-archives.com/artists/Gunslut/23815

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theposega
Mezla

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:42 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:03 pm 
 

yes, i gathered that. just very much in awe of the name.
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Napalm_Satan
Ever-Opening Flower

Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2015 4:27 pm
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Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:31 am 
 

Glad that she left. No reason to stick around with people that won't accept a fundamental part of you. As for the band breaking up, well that's on Proscriptor; no telling what he'll do.
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~Guest 21181
The Great Fearmonger

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:40 am 
 

I'm just going to riff off of what Derigin said about the band maybe not wanting to issue any response at all.

I don't think I've ever listened to Absu, so I'm not really invested in this, but regardless of what happened here---whether Melissa was ejected for being trans or ejected for some other reason---I'm not really sure that the band could have given an obviously better response. If she was kicked out for some other reason and then accused of being transphobic anyway, and they publicly stated why she was actually kicked out, it wouldn't look like "well here's what actually happened" to most people. It would look like deflection, excuse-making, trying to muddy the waters. If they really did kick her out for being trans, to publicly say so would amount to self-condemnation with respect to their more tolerant fans. A non-response is not perfect in either case but I'm not really sure there's a better public relations option.

Accusations of transphobia are in a similar category as accusations of racism, the "there is no actual way to defend yourself that pleases everybody" category.

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Abominatrix
Harbinger of Metal

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:15 pm
Posts: 9311
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:13 pm 
 

It's good that melissa came out. Sad to hear from her that there was friction with other members of Absu about her status. Absu seems a band that's perpetually in turmoil, and Proscriptor, one of the finest drummers metal has seen, appears to have wasted his talents just a bit. I didn't even realise he had stopped playing drums live!?! What a shame. The last time I saw them he barely did any vocals. I felt like a lot of the personality of the band was gone. it's of course a personality I mostly associate with all those recordings up to and including Tara. There is I think quite a bit wrong in the Absu camp besides this issue.
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cultofkraken
Veteran

Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:18 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:41 pm 
 

Abominatrix wrote:
It's good that melissa came out. Sad to hear from her that there was friction with other members of Absu about her status. Absu seems a band that's perpetually in turmoil, and Proscriptor, one of the finest drummers metal has seen, appears to have wasted his talents just a bit. I didn't even realise he had stopped playing drums live!?! What a shame. The last time I saw them he barely did any vocals. I felt like a lot of the personality of the band was gone. it's of course a personality I mostly associate with all those recordings up to and including Tara. There is I think quite a bit wrong in the Absu camp besides this issue.


Didn’t Proscriptor fall off a ladder or something at work and injured himself to the point where he still can’t drum a full set? I seem to recall something of that nature.

Definitely full support to Melissa. It’s courageous as fuck to be Trans in American society right now. Always find it funny that people who think accepting that isn’t very black metal, yet fail to see that a highly conservative viewpoint IS the establishment’s viewpoint as well as the viewpoint of the Christian establishment that these people claim to despise. Black Metal should be outsider art, and there’s nothing about that in supporting the dogma of the establishment.
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eerie_noctular
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 3:31 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:45 am 
 

For those curious, here's an update (more or less) from the ABSU Camp:

The band has not disbanded and has no intention to. As seen by recent posts on the FB, they intend to tour once "Apsu" comes out.

As for "Apsu", it's process was delayed for some time (this event was part of it) but has finally been completed and went to mastering around the time this story broke. They intend for release sometime in 2019 for sure. I'm told a press release is due anytime now.

As for the rest of it, it is what it is.
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BasqueStorm
The Wettest Blanket

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:12 pm 
 

eerie_noctular wrote:
For those curious, here's an update (more or less) from the ABSU Camp:
The band has not disbanded and has no intention to. As seen by recent posts on the FB, they intend to tour once "Apsu" comes out.
As for "Apsu", it's process was delayed for some time (this event was part of it) but has finally been completed and went to mastering around the time this story broke. They intend for release sometime in 2019 for sure. I'm told a press release is due anytime now.
As for the rest of it, it is what it is.

Thanks! :beer:

I only could find this:
https://www.facebook.com/officialabsu/photos/a.230630226994614/2041605205897098/

Image

Could this be related to the conflict?

Anyway, in the comments:

Quote:
Jens Krekel: The main thing for me : Absu is still active!! I hope there will be another Album in the future

Quote:
Official ABSU Network: ABSU is more active than the flapping wings of ascended essence, yet the engulfing flames of the (Tiphareth's) Sun! The Primum Mobile of Apsu is 'rather' imminent - underlooming to say the very least.

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eerie_noctular
Metal newbie

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:49 pm 
 

Actually, that was just to straighten out where booking requests should go.

A more detailed release regarding the band and new album should be coming soon.
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~Guest 389043
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:07 pm 
 

eerie_noctular wrote:
Actually, that was just to straighten out where booking requests should go.

A more detailed release regarding the band and new album should be coming soon.


Cool - looking forward to more Absu.

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praey
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:51 pm 
 

That Facebook post is surprisingly well written. Not that I expected Proscriptor to be a blathering idiot or anything, but the dichotomy between his stage persona and the professionalism of that post is actually kind of hilarious.

Excited to here there's still a new album on the way. Been way too long.

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BasqueStorm
The Wettest Blanket

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:25 am 
 

eerie_noctular wrote:
Actually, that was just to straighten out where booking requests should go.

... because Melissa could have control on the previous email? :roll:

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Lord_Jotun
Veteran

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:32 am 
 

Good to know the trilogy is still happening at least.
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k311250
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:14 am
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:05 am 
 

BasqueStorm wrote:
eerie_noctular wrote:
Actually, that was just to straighten out where booking requests should go.

... because Melissa could have control on the previous email? :roll:

I thought you didn't like speculation.

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BrutalizerUtilizerOfTheShadows
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:44 pm 
 

eerie_noctular wrote:
Actually, that was just to straighten out where booking requests should go.

A more detailed release regarding the band and new album should be coming soon.


Thanks for the update! It is indeed good to know that the band will continue on, and that the trilogy will be completed as planned.

As for the situation, if they choose to comment or not, it is ultimately up to them. Choosing to do so could result in a mud-slinging fest, and that would be really messy. They don't have to say anything, but announcing a new guitarist without even acknowledging Vis Crom's departure would be odd, yet it would probably tell us all we need to know just as much as a statement would.
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BasqueStorm
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:16 pm 
 

k311250 wrote:
I thought you didn't like speculation.

No, smartass. What I don't like is acusing someone of such a horrible attitude (right now, transfobia) without hearing his version and reasons. Please, don't be fool.

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miskatonic79
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:57 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:15 pm 
 

BastardHead wrote:
miskatonic79 wrote:
Actually my biggest issue with the article is where it states that metal is a safe space?!?! Sorry, but there is NOTHING safe about metal especially extreme metal. It's about rebellion against religion, government, the norms of society and especially anything PC. Kinda why I scratch my head with the amount of liberal/progressives in the metal scene. You would think there would be more libertarian minded metal heads. Anyways, screw metal injection and metalsucks. Bunch of shit starters. Anyways, it's Proscriptor's band, it's over when he says it over and if he doesn't want to play with a transgender or have one in his band, that's HIS right to do so. Either support them or don't.


Just uhh... what exactly do you think metal is?

I'm gonna keep it short, but "especially anything PC" is so hilariously tacked-on and out of place in that list of things that metal is supposed to rebel against. I read some article somewhere (genuinely don't remember where, might have been Noisey or Consequence of Sound but don't quote me) that claimed that part of the reason that albums like Welcome to Hell, Show No Mercy, and Melissa were so huge was because for the first time, metal was truly about something. Metal in the pre-Venom world was more or less about whatever the hell it wanted to be. Sabbath's genre-starting album invoked Satan, sure, but Satan was something to be feared with Sabbath at the start. The devil and the occult were dangerous things that would inevitably bring harm. Almost every other metal band from the 70s went with some vague escapist fantasy angle, the tried and true "sex, drugs, and rock and roll", or anything else in between. With Venom, Satan was finally something to be embraced. I've seen an interview with King Diamond where he explains his LaVeyan beliefs, saying that Satan is the symbol that he and others go with not out of some dogmatic worship, but as a symbol of The Opposite. Instead of living your life for God, you live your life for the opposite, you live life for yourself.

The major thruline throughout the hedonistic raunch of the majority of NWOBHM bands and the more satanic extreme metal that branched off afterwards was the idea of personal liberation/freedom. That's why Reagan/Thatcher were such huge targets in the 80s, they were all about the exact opposite of personal liberation. Oppressive right-wing moral crusaders that worship power, cartoonishly wealthy businessmen crushing the destitute underhoof, powerful religious organizations attempting to cleanse the "undesirables" from the world, those are the things metal relished fighting against in the glory days. The oppressors. The ones who prevent you from living life your own way. The entire appeal of metal for a lot of people was specifically because it was a safe space to be yourself. How people suddenly decided that "PC Culture" was something metal is somehow supposed to stand against is ludicrous to me because that would mean they were somehow railing against the status quo in every respect except for one completely nebulous nothing-term that exists purely as a boogeyman for people butthurt that it's becoming less okay to be a hateful prick in public. How utterly moronic would it be for the ethos of metal to be "Fuck religion, fuck the government, fuck societal norms, and fuck everything that those three things stand against as well for some reason".

Melissa coming out as trans is the biggest display of that personal liberation that metal has so frequently stood for. This is a person saying "Fuck your definitions, fuck the box you put me in, this is who I am and god dammit I am proud of it". If you can look at a statement like that and think that this is something that should be rejected because it's antithetical to "what metal is about", then you're either a colossal dunce or a bigot who somehow hasn't realized that metal generally kind of fucking hates bigots outside of their own little safe spaces in NSBM and the like.


I get the point you're trying to make and it's valid. However, I guess what I'm saying is that Proscriptor has a right as well if he wants a transgender in his band or not, regardless if that upsets people. If this is indeed the reason she was kicked out. THAT also is libertarian.
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eerie_noctular
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 3:31 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:48 pm 
 

BasqueStorm wrote:
eerie_noctular wrote:
Actually, that was just to straighten out where booking requests should go.

... because Melissa could have control on the previous email? :roll:


Probably more than likely.
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BasqueStorm
The Wettest Blanket

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:21 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:56 pm 
 

That was my point, THANKS. :beer:

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