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Subrick
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
Posts: 8163
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:13 pm 
 

Sorry for the MetalSucks link, but that's where I read this first.

http://www.metalsucks.net/2019/02/28/fo ... quit-band/

So the skinny of this is that the guy who played Hitler in Downfall (the movie that the "Angry Hitler" meme came from) died and John Haughm posted a tribute to him on Facebook. Then he said he was surprised that "Judenbook" hadn't removed the post yet, and it goes from there. Both of the other guys in Pillorian quit pretty much immediately, and then the entire rest of Agalloch's final lineup condemned Haughm in a post made by Don Anderson.

I don't suspect this'll change Pillorian's sound much since it was all Haughm's writing anyway, but this is still pretty shitty PR for him. You can't expect to just say something dumb in passing like that online and expect to get away with it. I don't think he's actually an anti-Semite, and he was just make a really shitty joke that ended up costing him his band's current lineup and, it seems, the respect of his former bandmates.
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Twisted_Psychology
Metal freak

Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 8:22 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:28 pm 
 

I don't know much about the band but I forget the last time I heard Juden in a non anti-Semitic context. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes I guess. Good on his bandmates to call him out on their own volition.
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DoomMetalAlchemist
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:10 am
Posts: 1743
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:35 pm 
 

Sometimes people are too eager to appear edgy, thinking it'll win them fans. But you got to know your audience. Sure metal fans tend to eat up anti-Christian and satanic lyrics with a spoon, and a great deal metal fans do the same with sexist and misogynistic lyrics, but (mainly) outside of NSBM circles, the vast majority of metal fans draw the line at racism and anti-semitism.

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true_death
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:47 pm
Posts: 1843
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:03 pm 
 

It shouldn't be very surprising that the guy who wrote lyrics like "I SAW THE NIGHT FALL, IT CALLED TO ME LIKE A RIVER OF SHADOWS" etc. etc. has turned out to be a complete dumbass.
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theposega
Mezla

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:42 pm
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Location: Neo-Allegheny City
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:50 pm 
 

lol
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Temple Of Blood
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:16 am
Posts: 2440
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:12 pm 
 

But people still wanna play in Pentagram and As I Lay Dying. Peak 2019.
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raumr
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:11 pm
Posts: 1249
Location: Norway
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:41 pm 
 

Twisted_Psychology wrote:
I don't know much about the band but I forget the last time I heard Juden in a non anti-Semitic context. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes I guess. Good on his bandmates to call him out on their own volition.

You don't know much about the band, but you're glad it's falling apart because of a joke. You've probably never even listened to a song from them, but you can't help but being gleeful of their demise. Can Jews never be the butt of a joke? Are they protected from all mockery among the world's religions and ethnic groups?

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PurpleDoom
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:39 pm
Posts: 359
Location: Gazing into the deep
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:52 pm 
 

Man, I enjoy Pillorian's music, but it seems like every time John Haughm opens his mouth he says something monumentally stupid. I probably won't drop the band over this, but I can't exactly say I'm sympathetic, either.

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Bingewolf
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 pm
Posts: 351
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:49 pm 
 

I love Agalloch and I really liked the Pillorian album but fuck John Haughm. When you get busted trying to figure out the best way to write "Jewbook/Judenbook," you're a racist asshole... What a dummy.

Good on Aesop and crew for stepping up to this immediately.

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cweed
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:48 pm
Posts: 465
Location: LFK, USA
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:53 pm 
 

raumr wrote:
Twisted_Psychology wrote:
I don't know much about the band but I forget the last time I heard Juden in a non anti-Semitic context. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes I guess. Good on his bandmates to call him out on their own volition.

You don't know much about the band, but you're glad it's falling apart because of a joke. You've probably never even listened to a song from them, but you can't help but being gleeful of their demise. Can Jews never be the butt of a joke? Are they protected from all mockery among the world's religions and ethnic groups?


OK, do either of you ACTUALLY know if he was joking or not? I’m inclined to think it’s possible he wasn’t because apparently he said dumb shit like this all time and was serious. This is evidenced by at least several musicians he’s worked with in the past as well in real life as well as (according to my friend who followed his Instagram at least and I believe is telling the truth) his social media presence. He doesn’t seem to have very many people that he’s worked with backing him up, but plenty are willing to throw stones. So yeah, idk if he’s joking, as his former colleagues in Agalloch seem to think he’s serious, which is telling.

Anyway, who the fuck knows, but my point is- do we actually know if it’s a joke or not? It’s not
obvious to me, at least. If he was joking, then yeah it’s an overreaction to a dumb “edgy” joke by a grown man.
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narsilianshard
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:22 pm
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Location: Portland
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:08 pm 
 

He's never been shy about idolizing Death In June so I guess this really isn't a surprise. Just scrolled through his instagram and he really nails the vibe of being a teenage goth girl trapped in a middle aged man's body.

And of course it wasn't a joke, raumr just tries to a way to defend racism every chance he gets.
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VaderCrush
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:05 am
Posts: 60
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:12 pm 
 

Quote:
OK, do either of you ACTUALLY know if he was joking or not?


I feel like this being all it took to make people bail on him from his current band while his former bandmembers proceeded to shit on him kind of speaks pretty loudly in that regard. They felt that he was serious enough for this to be the last straw and them to want nothing to do with him

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PurpleDoom
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:39 pm
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Location: Gazing into the deep
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:21 pm 
 

Even if he was joking (I'm personally taking an agnostic position here) that's a very dangerous line to cross in today's society. Ill-thought jokes have and will continue to ruin reputations to the point that distancing yourself from the person who made that joke is the only way to save your own hide.
I don't think it's particularly telling that the former Agalloch members issued a statement condemning him, their relationship wasn't exactly great.

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dystopia4
Thumbman

Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:47 pm
Posts: 4427
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:30 pm 
 

As important as Agalloch was for me getting into metal, it has been apparent for a while that John is a complete toad. On Stephen Parker's facebook statement two of the former Agalloch guys are sarcastically saying "if only someone would have warned you!". Pretty funny shit. I did some digging because I was bored and Jason said on Aesop's Facebook that John was pulling this sort of shit when they were touring Israel too. The Sol Invictus guy even jumped in to roast John.

Also, annual reminder that this exists.

Spoiler: show
Image
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cweed
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:48 pm
Posts: 465
Location: LFK, USA
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:11 pm 
 

narsilianshard wrote:
He's never been shy about idolizing Death In June so I guess this really isn't a surprise. Just scrolled through his instagram and he really nails the vibe of being a teenage goth girl trapped in a middle aged man's body.

And of course it wasn't a joke, raumr just tries to a way to defend racism every chance he gets.


Ah OK, thanks for the heads up :)

And haha yeah dystopia4 that pic is a classic.
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Frank Booth
Can Bench 450

Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:29 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:17 pm 
 

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Who is HONESTLY surprised that this jabroni would pull something like this?

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blackmantram
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:51 pm
Posts: 514
Location: Colombia
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:17 am 
 

in 2019 people leave a band because one its members post a stupid comment in a social network. By that logic, I should have left the band I'm currently playing on already. What a time to be alive... :nono:

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HaPoStaPu
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:20 am
Posts: 161
Location: Armenia
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:41 am 
 

The writer of the article you've posted is called Rosenberg....sounds pretty Jewi...just kidding!!!!! I know Jews, I've even worked in a synagogue once, the normal ones are generally not super powerful kraken who run everything, squeezing the planet until it bleeds shekels.

Am I doing this right? ;-P

Seriously though, it's the internet that allows every comment to spread far and wide and cause outrage. Before widespread broadband he probably would have said it down the pub and his band mates would have either ignored it, told him off, discussed it. I doubt that they would have left the band straight away (seems more necessary now to save one's reputation?) unless they really couldn't resolve the issue between them.

Either way, he posted it, they left. If you say things that offend others then you should be prepared to deal with the consequences.


Last edited by HaPoStaPu on Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
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blackmantram
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:51 pm
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Location: Colombia
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:49 am 
 

HaPoStaPu wrote:
If you say things that offends other you should be prepared to deal with the consequences.


Do you realize nowadays pretty much anything you say has the potential to offend someone? Even a fucking "hello" can be an excuse for outrage.

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HaPoStaPu
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:20 am
Posts: 161
Location: Armenia
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:03 am 
 

blackmantram wrote:
HaPoStaPu wrote:
If you say things that offends other you should be prepared to deal with the consequences.


Do you realize nowadays pretty much anything you say has the potential to offend someone? Even a fucking "hello" can be an excuse for outrage.


I don't disagree but that's why you probably should think twice before posting stuff you know is offensive on the internet. Not saying that that's how it necessarily should be (someone losing their job over a stupid joke, as happened at times, certainly seems way too extreme to me) but that's where we are right now.

It's everywhere now. Without going into too much detail, my woman works for an American magazine (which hasn't anything to do with politics) and they just fired someone who wrote for them for a long time as she wasn't sensitive enough regarding certain issues on Twitter (or a similar website, can't remember. It was her own account, not the magazine's) and thus caused some outrage. Her mistake was, in my opinion (but I'm more like a thick skinned dinosaur by now) a very mild one, if I'd even consider it anything to ever get upset about. Basically she supposedly was, as a white woman, too self-centered when speaking about racism in that industry, refused to discuss racism properly online, didn't listen to non-White people's issues enough and handled it all wrong. They offered her some sort of racial sensitivity training, she didn't seem interested, now she has to go to save the reputation of the magazine. Seems too extreme to me but that's how it seems to work in many places now.

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Xlxlx
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:24 am 
 

As other people mentioned already, this just seems like the straw that broke the camel's back after a long, loooooooooooong string of bullshit from this guy. Given the current climate, you shouldn't exactly expect backpats from people with more than half a brain cell if you make dumb, basic jokes like those.

You can say the other guys are overreacting or whatever, but they're within their right to distance themselves from a colleague if they feel like he's too much of an idiot. Or, more cynically, and as others have also stated, to keep their reputations intact. If you hang out with idiots, people will start to associate you with idiocy.
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raumr
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:11 pm
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Location: Norway
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:10 am 
 

narsilianshard wrote:
And of course it wasn't a joke, raumr just tries to [sic] a way to defend racism every chance he gets.

Care to elaborate on that last part? I did defend a racist (anti-Semitic rather) joke in this instance yes, but I can't make that fit with "defending racism every chance I get". I'm a social democrat with liberal leanings, I have nothing to do with racism in my life.

I am bemoaning that one of the bands I really like is falling apart, apparently because of a joke. Now, others have commented that this was probably not the singular cause, and they are probably right. Maybe the guy is an asshole, he certainly seems full of himself at times.

This is not a hill I want to die on, I was mainly reacting to Twisted Psychology's apparent dancing on the grave of a band he doesn't even listen to.

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Twisted_Psychology
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:36 pm 
 

The name hadn't registered with me at first and it took me a minute to realize the Agalloch connection so yeah, I guess I have heard the band before in some capacity. Even then, I wasn't dancing on their grave so much as kinda shrugging at it. If anything, it's better for the other guys to drop out voluntarily than wait for the seemingly inevitable Antifa pressure. What I said still stands though.
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dystopia4
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:39 pm 
 

So John posted a big apology thing, but it seems he has now deleted it. Basically he acknowledged it was a stupid thing to say and apologized for it. Honestly, it was a very dumb thing to say and he should have known better, but I'm not sure the comment in and of itself warrants losing your band. However, I think it's quite telling that that's all it took for his band to bail and how gleefully people from his past leaped out of the woodwork to essentially say "man, fuck that guy". Part of his apology includes a line to the effect of "self-awareness has never been my strong point and it's something I need to start working on" and I reckon this speaks to why he's so hard to work with and has rubbed so many people the wrong way.

Also, I'll leave this here because it gave me a good laugh:

Spoiler: show
Image
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Last edited by dystopia4 on Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BasqueStorm
The Wettest Blanket

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:21 pm
Posts: 4575
Location: Turks and Caicos Islands
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:43 pm 
 

Subrick wrote:
Sorry for the MetalSucks link, but that's where I read this first.
http://www.metalsucks.net/2019/02/28/fo ... quit-band/

This:

Quote:
Former Members of Agalloch Condemn John Haughm over Anti-Semitic Comment, Pillorian Guitarist and Drummer Quit Band
February 28th, 2019 at 3:54pm
Axl Rosenberg

Former Agalloch/current Pillorian frontman John Haughm has found himself at the center of controversy as the result of anti-Semitic comments the guitarist/vocalist made on social media.

The problem began, oddly enough, as a result of the death of the German actor Bruno Ganz, who passed away earlier this month at age 77. Although Ganz was famous for many roles, in the post-YouTube era, he has become best known for playing Adolf Hitler in the 2004 movie Downfall. Despite being nominated for a Best Foreign Language Film Oscar, Downfall has become almost as famous for spawning a meme as it has for the movie itself. You know the one — a scene from the film where Hitler is upset that he’s losing the war has been re-subtitled so it appears as though the genocidal dictator is mad about whatever insignificant issue.

After Ganz died, Haughm posted a completely innocuous tribute to the actor on Facebook.

Image

Several of Haughm’s followers then left their own odes to Ganz, also innocently praising the actor’s talents… and then Haughm decided it was a good idea to post the following, which he went back and edited twice for clarity before settling on the final version at the bottom:

Image

Juden, in case you don’t know, is German for “Jews.” The implication, of course, is that Facebook has been blocking tributes to Ganz simply because he played Hitler once and the company was founded by a Jewish man. (And, incidentally, even if you disregard Haughm’s vile language, his claim is unsubstantiated — I can’t find any other record online of Facebook having allegedly blocked posts about Ganz.)

Drummer Aesop Dekker, Haughm’s former bandmate in Agalloch, soon took to social media to condemn Haughm as a “a tiny edgelord” and a “troll.” Former Agalloch guitarist Don Anderson also released a statement, condemning Haughm’s comments on behalf of all the band’s former members:

“We—Jason [Walton], Aesop, and myself—are deeply disappointed to learn that our former bandmate John Haughm has made an anti-Semitic comment on his Facebook page. We vehemently condemn our former bandmate and want to make it clear that none of us share his reprehensible viewpoints. We have not had any direct contact with him since the breakup nearly 3 years ago (aside from Don who handles the business side of things with him). We are not friends. More importantly, he is NOT Agalloch. Please feel free to share.”

Agalloch, of course, broke up in 2016, with Walton, Anderson, and Dekker going on to form Khôrada with Giant Squid’s Aaron John Gregory. Haughm, meanwhile, launched Pillorian…

…a band that is now in need of a new band. Guitarist Stephen Parker (Maestus) has quit the group while also castigating Haughm (although, rather oddly, not by name)…

“As of this writing, I will no longer be performing or involved with Pillorian. In light of recent events, I feel it’s best for me personally, professionally, and creatively to go in a separate direction. The personal views reflected by other musicians I may have worked with are not my own views; I don’t take any sort of racist speech lightly. I feel endless gratitude for those who have supported my endeavors with Pillorian by coming to shows, picking up merch, or streaming the album.”

…and while drummer Trevor Matthews (ex-Uada… man, this dude needs new friends) hasn’t said anything publicly, his Facebook page now lists him as the band’s former drummer.

Haughm, for his part, has not released any additional statement. His personal Facebook page, however, has either been made private or taken down altogether.

So nobody HAS to click on the link.

raumr wrote:
narsilianshard wrote:
And of course it wasn't a joke, raumr just tries to [sic] a way to defend racism every chance he gets.

Care to elaborate on that last part? I did defend a racist (anti-Semitic rather) joke in this instance yes, but I can't make that fit with "defending racism every chance I get". I'm a social democrat with liberal leanings, I have nothing to do with racism in my life.

Could we stop this stupid trend of Internet warriors, PLEASE? We have MORE THAN ENOUGH with Antifa idiots, thanks.

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PhilosophicalFrog
The Hypercube

Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 7:08 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:01 pm 
 

YEAH why do i have to GO on THE INTERNET to find out people are MAD at people!!!!!!!!
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blackmantram
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:51 pm
Posts: 514
Location: Colombia
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:38 pm 
 

dystopia4 wrote:
So John posted a big apology thing, but it seems he has now deleted it. Basically he acknowledged it was a stupid thing to say and apologized for it. Honestly, it was a very dumb thing to say and he should have known better, but I'm not sure the comment in and of itself warrants losing your band. However, I think it's quite telling that that's all it took for his band to bail and how gleefully people from his past leaped out of the woodwork to essentially say "man, fuck that guy". Part of his apology includes a line to the effect of "self-awareness has never been my strong point and it's something I need to start working on" and I reckon this speaks to why he's so hard to work with and has rubbed so many people the wrong way.


That's great, we just have to wait for Militan Zone and similar pages to get offended by the apology and say how hypocrite and pansy the current black metal scene is and blah blah blah. Yeah, all of this shit again.

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Wilytank
Not a Flying Toy

Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:21 am
Posts: 5226
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:45 pm 
 

DoomMetalAlchemist wrote:
Sometimes people are too eager to appear edgy, thinking it'll win them fans. But you got to know your audience. Sure metal fans tend to eat up anti-Christian and satanic lyrics with a spoon, and a great deal metal fans do the same with sexist and misogynistic lyrics, but (mainly) outside of NSBM circles, the vast majority of metal fans draw the line at racism and anti-semitism.

The way I see it, anti-semitism is basically kicking the dog. It's easy to point out Christianity's and Islam's acts of violence and oppression, but aside from the Israeli-Palastine conflict the Jews have mainly kept to themselves haven't caused any trouble in the greater reaches of the western world where these bands live.
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HaPoStaPu
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:20 am
Posts: 161
Location: Armenia
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:10 pm 
 

Wilytank wrote:
DoomMetalAlchemist wrote:
Sometimes people are too eager to appear edgy, thinking it'll win them fans. But you got to know your audience. Sure metal fans tend to eat up anti-Christian and satanic lyrics with a spoon, and a great deal metal fans do the same with sexist and misogynistic lyrics, but (mainly) outside of NSBM circles, the vast majority of metal fans draw the line at racism and anti-semitism.

The way I see it, anti-semitism is basically kicking the dog. It's easy to point out Christianity's and Islam's acts of violence and oppression, but aside from the Israeli-Palastine conflict the Jews have mainly kept to themselves haven't caused any trouble in the greater reaches of the western world where these bands live.


A typical anti-Semitic claim in Europe would be that Jews were influential in bringing about communism and were overrepresented amongst Stalin's enforcers. Stuff like this https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,734 ... 99,00.html

Then there's all the other stuff like Jews being greedy bankers, Palestine, Muslims vs Christians vs Jews, religion based conflicts going back many generations, Jews controlling Hollywood and the mass media, Frankfurt school and so on.

Anti-Semitism is a light sleeper in Europe they say. They even were kicked out of England for over 300 years. It's not exactly new, just takes on different forms as time goes on.

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Vadara
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 11:14 pm
Posts: 151
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:27 pm 
 

blackmantram wrote:
HaPoStaPu wrote:
If you say things that offends other you should be prepared to deal with the consequences.


Do you realize nowadays pretty much anything you say has the potential to offend someone? Even a fucking "hello" can be an excuse for outrage.


It's very easy to not offend anyone these days, but judging by this comment you're the exact kind of fuckhead mad that he can't call people the n-word online anymore.

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Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5432
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:56 pm 
 

You say dumb things, and you face the consequences of it.

I'd argue this has little to do with actually offending anyone. There's just some things you don't say because saying them would make you look like an infantile ignoramus, and this was one of them. Calling Facebook as "Judenbook" -- Congrats, not only is your bigotry now out there for the world to see, but what you said is something only an edgy twelve year old would think is cool or amusing. This would be the type of comment that belongs on /r/insanepeoplefacebook, and I don't really blame anyone from wanting to disassociate from it and its creator.

What's that old saying? Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt?
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Wilytank
Not a Flying Toy

Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:21 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:19 pm 
 

HaPoStaPu wrote:
Wilytank wrote:
The way I see it, anti-semitism is basically kicking the dog. It's easy to point out Christianity's and Islam's acts of violence and oppression, but aside from the Israeli-Palastine conflict the Jews have mainly kept to themselves haven't caused any trouble in the greater reaches of the western world where these bands live.


A typical anti-Semitic claim in Europe would be that Jews were influential in bringing about communism and were overrepresented amongst Stalin's enforcers. Stuff like this https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,734 ... 99,00.html

Then there's all the other stuff like Jews being greedy bankers, Palestine, Muslims vs Christians vs Jews, religion based conflicts going back many generations, Jews controlling Hollywood and the mass media, Frankfurt school and so on.

Anti-Semitism is a light sleeper in Europe they say. They even were kicked out of England for over 300 years. It's not exactly new, just takes on different forms as time goes on.

That's exactly what I'm saying. All those examples seem to stem from conspiracy theory nonsense and medieval superstition (perpetuated, surprise surprise, by predominantly Catholic Europeans). And even if any of that bullshit was true, I certainly doubt it would've been inspired by religious motivation.
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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:11 pm 
 

narsilianshard wrote:
He's never been shy about idolizing Death In June so I guess this really isn't a surprise.


That's what's cutting it to you? Because other former Agalloch musicians, noticeably Don Anderson, have stated that Death in June are one of the big influences of Agalloch. Death in June, while controversial in the symbolism they use and some shady lyrical themes, are artistically extremely relevant and important to neofolk.

VaderCrush wrote:
Quote:
OK, do either of you ACTUALLY know if he was joking or not?


I feel like this being all it took to make people bail on him from his current band while his former bandmembers proceeded to shit on him kind of speaks pretty loudly in that regard. They felt that he was serious enough for this to be the last straw and them to want nothing to do with him


While I do not want to justify the stupid anti-jewish joke that Haughm made, I wouldn't call this a proof of anything. He was not in the best of terms with the other ex-Agalloch members, as you may know. Remember how he went behind their back to copyright all of their music and kick them out? You don't make friends that way. And right now, anti-semitism and "fascism" in metal seems to basically be the worst thing you can do. So of course the other guys from Pillorian have decided they didn't want their names dragged through the mud and they left the ship before it sank.

Xlxlx wrote:
As other people mentioned already, this just seems like the straw that broke the camel's back after a long, loooooooooooong string of bullshit from this guy. Given the current climate, you shouldn't exactly expect backpats from people with more than half a brain cell if you make dumb, basic jokes like those.

You can say the other guys are overreacting or whatever, but they're within their right to distance themselves from a colleague if they feel like he's too much of an idiot. Or, more cynically, and as others have also stated, to keep their reputations intact. If you hang out with idiots, people will start to associate you with idiocy.


I want to say that this is the most reasonable way to look at the situation. Haughm has released a statement on his personal Facebook wall recently regarding the situation, and seems to aknowledge that he often makes bad decisions regarding the things he shares on the Internet and has decided to take a step back and not be out in the public with his music for a while following the departure of his two bandmates.

Haughm seems like a guy who does stupid things every now and then and who also isn't very sensitive. He seems to be someone who might be a little socially ackward, and by putting his foot in his mouth once again, he realised he should take a little break from the public music life.

The other musicians have reacted really quickly to this, most likely to save their own skin and to avoid being associated with anti-semitic statements. The same goes for the ex-Agalloch members who quickly tried to distance themselves from the statement made by Haughm, as they didn't want their music to be associated to anti-semitic comments.

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Abominatrix
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:54 pm 
 

It feels like there's some jumping to conclusions going on here. Those who say the comment was the "straw that broke the camel's back" are probably near the mark -- the guys in the band likely didn't jump ship just because Jon said "Jewbook". it was probably something that had been building up for a while, and if this was the metaphorical last straw, you gotta think that the band just wasn't meant to last.

N.B. I'm not saying that what he said should just be considered fine and dandy, just that close-knit band guys would probably discuss it over some drinks and come to an understanding about what to do. The fact that this blew up with his bandmates online etc just shows me that he doesn't know how to maintain a proper relationship with either his bandmates or the public, and surely all the drama around Agalloch recently also pointed to this.

Edit:
I'd also leave Death in June out of it. As far as I know they've played successful shows in Israel and are welcome there. I'm not a huge fan but it is kind of amusing how everyone always struggles to determine what it is that they're "about".
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CrippledLucifer
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:13 pm 
 

Abominatrix wrote:
I'm not a huge fan but it is kind of amusing how everyone always struggles to determine what it is that they're "about".

It's almost as he has been making a career out of walking the fence for almost 40 years eh?

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Abominatrix
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:17 pm 
 

CrippledLucifer wrote:
Abominatrix wrote:
I'm not a huge fan but it is kind of amusing how everyone always struggles to determine what it is that they're "about".

It's almost as he has been making a career out of walking the fence for almost 40 years eh?


:lol: Pretty much.
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Zephirus
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:35 pm 
 

Subrick wrote:
Drummer Aesop Dekker, Haughm’s former bandmate in Agalloch, soon took to social media to condemn Haughm as a “a tiny edgelord” and a “troll.” Former Agalloch guitarist Don Anderson also released a statement, condemning Haughm’s comments on behalf of all the band’s former members:


raumr wrote:
narsilianshard wrote:
And of course it wasn't a joke, raumr just tries to [sic] a way to defend racism every chance he gets.

Care to elaborate on that last part? I did defend a racist (anti-Semitic rather) joke in this instance yes, but I can't make that fit with "defending racism every chance I get". I'm a social democrat with liberal leanings, I have nothing to do with racism in my life.

Could we stop this stupid trend of Internet warriors, PLEASE? We have MORE THAN ENOUGH with Antifa idiots, thanks.



why the fuck are people that have nothing to do with him anymore weighing in with statements?
must still have a chip on that shoulder
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Bingewolf
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:57 pm 
 

Derigin wrote:
What's that old saying? Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt?

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Everflowingstream
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Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:29 am
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:10 pm 
 

Don't know band, didn't read article, don't care for edgy comments but do hope one of you Americans belt that Rosenberg if you get the opportunity.

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HaPoStaPu
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Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:20 am
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:46 pm 
 

Wilytank wrote:
HaPoStaPu wrote:
Wilytank wrote:
The way I see it, anti-semitism is basically kicking the dog. It's easy to point out Christianity's and Islam's acts of violence and oppression, but aside from the Israeli-Palastine conflict the Jews have mainly kept to themselves haven't caused any trouble in the greater reaches of the western world where these bands live.


A typical anti-Semitic claim in Europe would be that Jews were influential in bringing about communism and were overrepresented amongst Stalin's enforcers. Stuff like this https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,734 ... 99,00.html

Then there's all the other stuff like Jews being greedy bankers, Palestine, Muslims vs Christians vs Jews, religion based conflicts going back many generations, Jews controlling Hollywood and the mass media, Frankfurt school and so on.

Anti-Semitism is a light sleeper in Europe they say. They even were kicked out of England for over 300 years. It's not exactly new, just takes on different forms as time goes on.

That's exactly what I'm saying. All those examples seem to stem from conspiracy theory nonsense and medieval superstition (perpetuated, surprise surprise, by predominantly Catholic Europeans). And even if any of that bullshit was true, I certainly doubt it would've been inspired by religious motivation.


You mean in the case of this guy? A lot of the stereotypes exist as Christianity, itself a purely Jewish sect, wished to distance itself from the other chose ones who wouldn't accept their Jesus. Christians at times tolerated Jews, their close cousins really, whilst destroying pagan Europe. They have a bit of an odd relationship, you can add the third desert religion in the mix as well. There are also other aspects such as money lending and so on but that's where most of it originates, even if people aren't necessarily aware of it. I wouldn't call the role of Jews under Stalin a conspiracy theory but it obviously has little to do with non-communist Jews now. It wasn't just Catholics, Martin Luther was quite anti-Semitic,

There's a book or smth from Russia, if I remember correctly, The Elders of Zion (I think) which promoted the idea of a grand Jewish plan to control the world. Wasn't Ford (the automobile guy, not Tom the designer) a fan and released his own book in the USA? Anyway, it all has been around for ages and is still popular around the world from parts of Eastern Europe to the Islamic world. I even have a neighbour who one day started to tell me about....forgot the name...some sort of Jews running politics here. Kazars? People, eh? But it shouldn't be surprising really considering that billions worship all kinds of sky fairies, Americans think the rest of the world makes climate worries up and so on. Most people's brains can't quite handle a complex world.

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