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Diplomate
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:04 pm
Posts: 164
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 4:35 pm 
 

What are the most extreme examples of genre changes in metal music?

For me this is Paradise Lost — from death/doom to gothic metal to synthpop(!), then back to gothic metal and finally death-doom.
Theatre of Tragedy also comes to mind, from gothic/death/doom metal to electronic music.

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Temple Of Blood
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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:16 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 4:49 pm 
 

Cynic
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blackmantram
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Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:51 pm
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 5:00 pm 
 

Diplomate wrote:
from gothic/death/doom metal to electronic music.


That's not really unexpected, most early gothic doom death metal bands were heavily influenced by post punk goth rock and electronic music. See Anathema, Kakatonia, Lacrimas Profundere, they all shifeted to some sort of electronic-driven rock at some point of their careers.

For me the most abrupt change was Morgoth releasing a grunge album after playing death metal.

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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 5:06 pm 
 

blackmantram wrote:
For me the most abrupt change was Morgoth releasing a grunge album after playing death metal.


But that was the time to play grunge wasn't it? I'd be shocked if a death metal band tried to go grunge now.

Didn't Massacre try to pull a maneuver like that too?
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colin040
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Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:00 pm
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 5:07 pm 
 

Paradise Lost's change was something that didn't happen over night. I'd argue that to a certain extent their progression made a lot more sense than that of other bands - even if I think everything from 1999 until 2007 kind of sucked and was mediocre at best.

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Miikja
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Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:36 pm
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 5:08 pm 
 

The 3rd and the Mortal went from atmospheric doom to experimental trip hop after the debut album. I wish they had released more music in their original style. 'Tears Laid in Earth', together with the 'Sorrow' EP, are perhaps the finest examples of my beloved genre. I never could get into the trippy stuff that came after. I guess it's not an extreme shift per se because while the music did change significantly, the overall mood of the music stayed the same.
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at the gaytes
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Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:07 pm
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 5:13 pm 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:

Massacre

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Diplomate
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:04 pm
Posts: 164
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 5:23 pm 
 

blackmantram wrote:
Diplomate wrote:
from gothic/death/doom metal to electronic music.


That's not really unexpected, most early gothic doom death metal bands were heavily influenced by post punk goth rock and electronic music. See Anathema, Kakatonia, Lacrimas Profundere, they all shifeted to some sort of electronic-driven rock at some point of their careers.

For me the most abrupt change was Morgoth releasing a grunge album after playing death metal.

Still I think abandoning metal completely wasn't a decision most fans appreciated. Though it seems to be a trend for death/doom/gothic bands to abandon metal, same happened to The 3rd and the Mortal and The Gathering.

colin040 wrote:
Paradise Lost's change was something that didn't happen over night. I'd argue that to a certain extent their progression made a lot more sense than that of other bands - even if I think everything from 1999 until 2007 kind of sucked and was mediocre at best.

Yeah, that probably makes the transition make more sense, but if you turned on a song from the first album and then compared it to something from their "pop"-era without taking context into consideration, that would be an extreme difference.

Miikja wrote:
The 3rd and the Mortal went from atmospheric doom to experimental trip hop after the debut album. I wish they had released more music in their original style. 'Tears Laid in Earth', together with the 'Sorrow' EP, are perhaps the finest examples of my beloved genre. I never could get into the trippy stuff that came after. I guess it's not an extreme shift per se because while the music did change significantly, the overall mood of the music stayed the same.

You beat me to it, I also remembered them while writing this post! A lot of material on Tears Laid in Earth doesn't really sound predominantly metal to me, it's more like atmospheric music with some doom metal guitars on top. Kinda like Summoning is dungeon synth with black metal guitars and vocals. So it's not that suprising that they dropped metal altogether.

Another example: I haven't listened to Celtic Frost a lot, but probably a transition from black/thrash metal to (blackened) glam metal seemed brutal for fans of that band. :)

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Tanuki
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Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:36 pm
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 5:28 pm 
 

Obligatory Semargl mention: "Black Metal (early), Dance Pop/Nu-Metal (later)". Yep, this to this, a perfectly natural evolution.

Atrocity's Blut is another example of death-to-grunge, I reckon.

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LycanthropeMoon
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Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:53 pm
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 5:37 pm 
 

Therion.

From this -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59O1bNn0kH4

To this -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKB9PMHT1Ps

I'd say the changes mostly worked ("Secret of the Runes" is actually my favorite thing they've done) until the last couple albums (I absolutely hated "Beloved Antichrist" and was pretty indifferent toward "Sitra Ahra").

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true_death
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Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:47 pm
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 6:04 pm 
 

Atrocity from Germany have probably the weirdest career trajectory ever. They started out as grindcore on the demos and first EP, changed to tech death for the first two albums, then on the third album changed into a weird mix of groove metal and vampire-themed gothic shit. After that, they put out a folk record, and then an industrial record, and then an 80's pop cover record. These days, I'm pretty sure they are back to a more or less death metal sound.
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Endarkening
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Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:51 pm
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 6:19 pm 
 

Gotta make mention of the once amazing MANES.
They made brilliant, cold, hypnotic black metal. Then Vilosophe happened.

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Miikja
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:36 pm
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 6:24 pm 
 

Diplomate wrote:
A lot of material on Tears Laid in Earth doesn't really sound predominantly metal to me, it's more like atmospheric music with some doom metal guitars on top. So it's not that suprising that they dropped metal altogether.


That's true. Have you heard Skumring's 'De glemte tider'? The music on that album is like a heavier (and folkier) version of The 3rd and the Mortal. Cecilie's voice (also of Omit) helps a lot in the resemblance.

Other band I just thought of: Pyogenesis. Started with doom/death, changed to a punk rock sound. Interestingly, the album from two years ago sounds heavier again and double bass drums are making a reappearance.
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kluseba
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 6:57 pm 
 

Semargl went from black metal over gothic rock to electronic dance music.

Semargl in 2005:

Youtube: show


Semargl in 2011:

Youtube: show


Semargl in 2018:

Youtube: show


Yes, this is the same band!
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Osmiumthemetal
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 7:48 pm 
 

Nobody's mentioned Celtic Frost and Discharge yet? lol

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praey
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 8:05 pm 
 

true_death wrote:
Atrocity from Germany have probably the weirdest career trajectory ever. They started out as grindcore on the demos and first EP, changed to tech death for the first two albums, then on the third album changed into a weird mix of groove metal and vampire-themed gothic shit. After that, they put out a folk record, and then an industrial record, and then an 80's pop cover record. These days, I'm pretty sure they are back to a more or less death metal sound.

That's bizarre, I saw them live last year and they primarily played death metal so I guess that's what they're sticking with now. Didn't realize they were so all over the place in the past.

Not as extreme as the others, but Amoral's shift from tech death (Reptile Ride) to power metal (Show Your Colors) always struck me as pretty unusual. Though admittedly Reptile Ride was already pretty hooky and melodic for tech death, so it wasn't entirely out of the blue.

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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 8:09 pm 
 

By far the most bizarre, baffling, and incomprehensible genre change I've come across while working on MA was a metal band turning into this hokey, avant-garde/jazz rock band.

https://pexbaa.bandcamp.com/album/pexbaa

It's hard to imagine that any metal band could've turned into that, and even moreso that they could've returned to being a metal band afterwards and noted that they were implementing techniques they learned and practiced in that band.

Keep listening to that, and ponder what those guys' metal band would sound like?

Spoiler: show
Holocausto, the Brazilian black/thrash band.

The same band who releases "Campo de Exterminio" in 1987, and came back with "War Metal Massacre" in 2017.


:eek: Seriously... :aww:

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Goatfangs
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 8:39 pm 
 

LycanthropeMoon wrote:
Therion.

From this -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59O1bNn0kH4

To this -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKB9PMHT1Ps

I'd say the changes mostly worked ("Secret of the Runes" is actually my favorite thing they've done) until the last couple albums (I absolutely hated "Beloved Antichrist" and was pretty indifferent toward "Sitra Ahra").


I never considered Therion's change in style too drastic, because they definitely did it over time. It wasn't abrupt. Of Darkness is pure death metal, but even then it experimented with a lot of things. Beyond Sanctorum was more melodic and experimental by a very slight degree (I sometimes even call it one of the earliest melodic death metal albums). Then you have Symphony Masses, which edges even more into an experimental and symphonic realm. Lepaca Kliffoth further develops this. Theli even more so and by Vovin they are full on operatic symphonic metal. But I argue that they retained some subtle death metal elements, especially with the heaviness of the riffs found on songs on later albums (such as the songs Ginnungagap, Typhon, T.O.F. The Trinity and Din). And Beloved Antichrist was a big disappointment for me.

One of the oddest genre shifts I came across in my explorations of funeral doom is that of Solarfall. This project started off as Funeral Doom, but reappeared in 2016 with two electronica/trance EPs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZGD9pZ5n6o vs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl2iyOyY7kk
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Necrobiotik
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 9:21 pm 
 

Darkthrone ( from DM to Norsk Arisk BM and Speed Metal punk then back to BM) and Vulcano are extreme examples for sure. Oh,and Moloch.From an extreme and amazing Black Metal in their very first DT to a endless stream of ambient boredom.
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Oxenkiller
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 9:22 pm 
 

Cold Lake (Celtic Frost) is the most obvious answer. But to me, Paradise Lost always had a strong Sisters of Mercy influence. Sisters of Mercy were a gothic rock band with some pop tendancies. Paradise Lost were a metal band with quite a bit of Sisters of Mercy tendencies. So it isn't that much of a stretch to see those Sisters' gothic pop tendencies ultimately creep in and overshadow their music. In other words, Celtic Frost's genre shift from black/death metal to glam was a bit more extreme, as far as I can tell.

Discharge, of course, went from hardcore punk pioneers- one of THE most influential bands of that genre- to playing glam rock. In the 80's, lots of bands (both punk and metal) wimped out in a similar fashion; Pantera is probably the only band I can think of from that era that actually got heavier over time. And I am not implying that I'm a big Pantera fan with that statement.

Pyogeneis- that's another one. They had some decent death/doom metal in the beginning before going all emo-pop. Also, I do remember the Finland band Xysma starting off as a garage-level sloppy Carcass worshipping goregrind type band and eventually evolving towards relatively tame sounding stoner rock.

Tons of bands like Therion (as mentioned) and Samael and Rotting Christ evolved their sound gradually over time but in the long run it was a pretty phenominal genre shift.

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Goatfangs
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 9:46 pm 
 

I wonder what the most insane genre shift TO metal was. The one example I can think of is Hank III going stoner/doom metal on Attention Deficit Domination. Then there is Sum 41 flirting with thrash metal.

Or in my imaginary bizarro world where Led Zeppelin reunites and records an old-school death metal album.
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And they'll tell you black is really white - The moon is just the sun at night - And when you walk in golden halls - You get to keep the gold that falls - It's Heaven and Hell
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Oxenkiller
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 10:35 pm 
 

I had not heard of Semargl before this thread, but I honestly think that band takes the cake!!

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der_kaiser
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 12:03 am 
 

Ulver!

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Subrick
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 12:41 am 
 

I think the ultimate example would be Metallica's regression in the 90s from where they started. Obviously they started as NWOBHM-influenced speed/thrash on Kill Em All, developing throughout the 80s into one of the earliest examples of progressive metal by AJFA, all while staying true to their thrash roots. They started their regression with The Black Album in 1991, but at least the songs mostly still had the flair of their more rocking 80s cuts like Harvester of Sorrow. Then Load and ReLoad hit and they became bluesy, stonery hard rock, with almost no metal to be found anywhere. If you were to take someone who only knew Ride the Lightning and showed them The House Jack Built, or The Memory Remains, or Bleeding Me, or The Outlaw Torn, or really anything off either album, they would not believe you that the same band made the same albums. Two eras of a band that are so diametrically opposed to one another in regards to sound, image, and presentation. That's why Metallica had the most incredible genre shift in metal history.
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putrevomitory
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 2:04 am 
 

Oxenkiller wrote:
I had not heard of Semargl before this thread, but I honestly think that band takes the cake!!


Awesome "satanic" dance music. More than decently made.
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Methuen
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 2:22 am 
 

Trying a couple of consecutive-album sound changes, as picking early stuff vs. a later point is fairly easy (Maiden, Burzum, Nightwish, hell even Delain have changed quite a bit)

So consecutive albums -

Priest ? Defenders -> Turbo

Did anyone really want Turbo after Defenders of the Faith ? Listening to those albums back-to-back, you wonder how KK and Glen weren't utterly, utterly bored on Turbo. It's not like they did a Seventh Son with synthy complexity.

Alcest ? Les voyages de l'âme -> Shelter -> Kodama

Neige seems to swing all over the shop - Souvenirs d'un autre monde is all gorgeous fuzzy sound and clean vocals - they next two records have more metal and obvious BM influences. He then makes Shelter, which is like someone put modern Anathema, Sigur Ros, and Mazzy Star in a blender. Then Kodama is back to the metal influences. Ping ping ping ping.
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D4nzig
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 3:53 am 
 

Methuen wrote:
Trying a couple of consecutive-album sound changes, as picking early stuff vs. a later point is fairly easy (Maiden, Burzum, Nightwish, hell even Delain have changed quite a bit)

So consecutive albums -

Priest ? Defenders -> Turbo

Did anyone really want Turbo after Defenders of the Faith ? Listening to those albums back-to-back, you wonder how KK and Glen weren't utterly, utterly bored on Turbo. It's not like they did a Seventh Son with synthy complexity.

Alcest ? Les voyages de l'âme -> Shelter -> Kodama

Neige seems to swing all over the shop - Souvenirs d'un autre monde is all gorgeous fuzzy sound and clean vocals - they next two records have more metal and obvious BM influences. He then makes Shelter, which is like someone put modern Anathema, Sigur Ros, and Mazzy Star in a blender. Then Kodama is back to the metal influences. Ping ping ping ping.


I really don't think so. Defenders was already giving listener hints that Priest is getting ready for a full blown glam metal album with songs like Rock Hard Ride Free, Love Bites,Night Comes down and Eat me Alive.

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Vigintiseptem
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 4:07 am 
 

Oxenkiller wrote:
Also, I do remember the Finland band Xysma starting off as a garage-level sloppy Carcass worshipping goregrind type band and eventually evolving towards relatively tame sounding stoner rock.

Yes, but this shift was not abrupt but gradual and arguably very natural. While their demos are quite pure grindcore, the first album Yeah already has a clear Sabbath-influence. The dosage of rock in their music increased album by album with the last album Girl on the Beach being purely rock. Great band!

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Diplomate
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 6:09 am 
 

Oxenkiller wrote:
Cold Lake (Celtic Frost) is the most obvious answer. But to me, Paradise Lost always had a strong Sisters of Mercy influence. Sisters of Mercy were a gothic rock band with some pop tendancies. Paradise Lost were a metal band with quite a bit of Sisters of Mercy tendencies. So it isn't that much of a stretch to see those Sisters' gothic pop tendencies ultimately creep in and overshadow their music. In other words, Celtic Frost's genre shift from black/death metal to glam was a bit more extreme, as far as I can tell.

Discharge, of course, went from hardcore punk pioneers- one of THE most influential bands of that genre- to playing glam rock. In the 80's, lots of bands (both punk and metal) wimped out in a similar fashion; Pantera is probably the only band I can think of from that era that actually got heavier over time. And I am not implying that I'm a big Pantera fan with that statement.

Paradise Lost's pop albums sound more like Depeche Mode than anything gothic, at least to my ear.

Celtic Frost's glam album was definitely a huge change, but I think this album is overhated, it's not as bad as everyone says it is, it's at least listenable. It still has some metal elements as well, so it could be called blackened glam metal :).
Discharge, on the other hand...I can't understand why anyone would listen to that album.

Miikja wrote:
That's true. Have you heard Skumring's 'De glemte tider'? The music on that album is like a heavier (and folkier) version of The 3rd and the Mortal. Cecilie's voice (also of Omit) helps a lot in the resemblance.

I'll check them out, this sounds good.


Last edited by Diplomate on Tue May 14, 2019 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Necrodictator
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 6:10 am 
 

Hexx deserves a mention definetely.

From this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6Ni-OjKE84
to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAn_au0bmHU

But Celtic Frost is a champion here. Starting as a precursor of back/death metal on their early releases, going through avantgarde thrash of Into the Pandemonium, the glam metal of Cold Lake, industrial/nu/rap metal of Prototype and finally ending up playing something like blackened doom on Monotheist.

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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 6:45 am 
 

huh im a long time fan of holocausto and i know they changed quite a bit after campo but i didnt know they became a jazz band.

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TheMysticWombat
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 7:15 am 
 

I'm actually digging Discolove from Semargl. What the fuck is wrong with me.

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jimbies
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Location: Ontario, Canada
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 8:37 am 
 

I'd like to say Angel Dust (from a German thrash band to a power metal band), however considering the personnel changed, besides the rhythm section, it hardly felt like the same band.

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 8:39 am 
 

Subrick wrote:
I think the ultimate example would be Metallica's regression in the 90s from where they started. Obviously they started as NWOBHM-influenced speed/thrash on Kill Em All, developing throughout the 80s into one of the earliest examples of progressive metal by AJFA, all while staying true to their thrash roots. They started their regression with The Black Album in 1991, but at least the songs mostly still had the flair of their more rocking 80s cuts like Harvester of Sorrow. Then Load and ReLoad hit and they became bluesy, stonery hard rock, with almost no metal to be found anywhere. If you were to take someone who only knew Ride the Lightning and showed them The House Jack Built, or The Memory Remains, or Bleeding Me, or The Outlaw Torn, or really anything off either album, they would not believe you that the same band made the same albums. Two eras of a band that are so diametrically opposed to one another in regards to sound, image, and presentation. That's why Metallica had the most incredible genre shift in metal history.


This isn't an insane or implausible shift. If you listen to all their albums one after the other you can see where Load came from. They always were about catchy hooks, which stayed consistent through all those albums no matter your preference for genres.
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MetallicaTrueFan
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 9:22 am 
 

Covenant went from Melodic Symphonic Black Metal on their first two albums to Industrial Black Metal on their third to straight up Rammstein esc Industrial Metal on their fourth. All in the midst of this they changed their name as well.
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blackmantram
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 9:56 am 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
blackmantram wrote:
For me the most abrupt change was Morgoth releasing a grunge album after playing death metal.


But that was the time to play grunge wasn't it? I'd be shocked if a death metal band tried to go grunge now.

Didn't Massacre try to pull a maneuver like that too?


I guess they got tempted to try and cash in on the grunge hype, so yeah It sort of makes sense from that point of view, but is still an odd shift, considering they did it all of a sudden after two full lengths and almost 10 years of playing death metal.
There are more examples of other people trying their luck with grunge. Massacre is the only similar case I know of but at least they split up before reforming with a new sound. Quorthon released a grunge album as a side project and voivod included some grunge influences in Angel rat.

Still the most insane genre shit in metal I know of, all bands named here did it in a more transitory way, these guys just dropped it out of nowhere.

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Methuen
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 11:00 am 
 

D4nzig wrote:
Methuen wrote:
Trying a couple of consecutive-album sound changes, as picking early stuff vs. a later point is fairly easy (Maiden, Burzum, Nightwish, hell even Delain have changed quite a bit)

So consecutive albums -

Priest ? Defenders -> Turbo

Did anyone really want Turbo after Defenders of the Faith ? Listening to those albums back-to-back, you wonder how KK and Glen weren't utterly, utterly bored on Turbo. It's not like they did a Seventh Son with synthy complexity.


I really don't think so. Defenders was already giving listener hints that Priest is getting ready for a full blown glam metal album with songs like Rock Hard Ride Free, Love Bites,Night Comes down and Eat me Alive.


Musically the shift is big - lyrically I completely agree with you; a lot of Defenders is simpler than a Slayer fan in the hot sun. 80s Priest have a lot of songs that really do make me understand why 'heavy metal is for stupid people' became a trope.

Musically is more where I'm looking -
Play Eat Me Alive - That whole rhythm/drum driven structure is there on Screaming for Vengeance. A lot.
Play Wild Nights & Hot Crazy Days - it sounds like Poison ! (no, not the German one)
Play Love Bites - Definitely a hard rock feel, but more Alice Cooper than Nikki Sixx I'd say ?
Play Reckless - That opening riff ? the whole tone of the guitars ? Pure Faltermeyer baby - pink sunset and mirror shades. There's a reason that the Top Gun producers asked for it.

Finally - Parental Guidance ? It's basically distilled Twisted Sister.
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motorsport
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:48 pm
Posts: 167
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 11:09 am 
 

Boris

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNZX0Lz-Iuk
Drone

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aI1vph80gc0
to heavy stoner rock

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true_death
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:47 pm
Posts: 1824
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 11:32 am 
 

blackmantram wrote:
I guess they got tempted to try and cash in on the grunge hype, so yeah It sort of makes sense from that point of view, but is still an odd shift, considering they did it all of a sudden after two full lengths and almost 10 years of playing death metal.
There are more examples of other people trying their luck with grunge. Massacre is the only similar case I know of but at least they split up before reforming with a new sound. Quorthon released a grunge album as a side project and voivod included some grunge influences in Angel rat.

Still the most insane genre shit in metal I know of, all bands named here did it in a more transitory way, these guys just dropped it out of nowhere.


I don't consider Feel Sorry for the Fanatic to be grunge, more like industrial/rock in the vein of Killing Joke and there are definitely some elements on Morgoth's last death metal album, Odium, which kind of foreshadowed the direction they would later take like "Submission", the title track, etc. - though you're right that they did seem to jump in way too quickly. Massacre definitely also took a huge stylistic shift, but what they did on Promise isn't too far from what Grave, Benediction, Pungent Stench, Cancer, and others were doing at the time - it's just significantly worse :lol:.

Some similar bands I can think of are Desultory, who put out two death metal albums and then abruptly turned into grunge on Swallow the Snake (just check the review score average to see how well that turned out for them), and also the Finnish band Disgrace, whose debut album was death metal but then turned into grunge on their second album (it turns out they actually recorded a transitional album, but it went unreleased and the band just carried on).
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Fearoth
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:09 pm
Posts: 23
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 1:03 pm 
 

Well, there's Ulver... Although one could say you could already hear some of the influences in their earlier works.

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