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I_Am_Vengeance
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:11 pm
Posts: 1821
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:52 am 
 

I thought i might just use this thread.

Anyone following the controversy with them and the photographer atm?

Here's a quick rundown.

https://www.metalblast.net/blog/how-i-g ... rch-enemy/ - first article posted about him being banned

Video link - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW1TRQeo7gk

Band Response - https://www.facebook.com/AlissaWhiteGlu ... 1423729984

Gained a heap of traction on reddit - https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comment ... certs_for/

The band is getting shat on all over the internet at the moment and its pretty funny. They are doubling and tripling down with their defenses.

Thughts?
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Last edited by Morrigan on Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Split from the Arch Enemy cover album thread; this deserves its own topic

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FirebathDan
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 2:32 pm
Posts: 1188
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:20 am 
 

I_Am_Vengeance wrote:
I thought i might just use this thread.

Anyone following the controversy with them and the photographer atm?

Here's a quick rundown.

https://www.metalblast.net/blog/how-i-g ... rch-enemy/ - first article posted about him being banned

Video link - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW1TRQeo7gk

Band Response - https://www.facebook.com/AlissaWhiteGlu ... 1423729984

Gained a heap of traction on reddit - https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comment ... certs_for/

The band is getting shat on all over the internet at the moment and its pretty funny. They are doubling and tripling down with their defenses.

Thoughts?


From what I've read on this, the photog is completely in the right. His photography, he owns the copyright, pretty cut and dry. Like the photog had said, others might be OK with simple attribution and "exposure", but if he feels he is due a license payment for his creative work, he's within his rights to ask. If the band and their handlers denies this and removes the photo, and further bans him from shows in order to avoid this situation in the future, then it's pretty much done.

The Arch Enemy camp does come across as exploitative in this situation and if the shoe was on the other foot (e.g. say some major movie studio wanted to use an AE song in a film and told them they should expect no payment and be grateful for the exposure), I highly, highly doubt they'd let that go without legal action (or in the example, at least demanding the song not be used). Seeing as how this situation has played out, the Arch Enemy camp does seem to have forgotten what it was like to once be a struggling artist (to any degree).

It's a real bad look for the Arch Enemy camp.
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CoconutBackwards
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:02 pm
Posts: 570
Location: Walled Lake, MI
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:20 am 
 

What a mess.

I feel for that photographer.

My first reaction was to just "let it go", because it doesn't seem like all that back and forth was worth it. Especially, when they were doing everything they could to make him look bad. But, after reading what he had to say about photographers being expected to work for free for "exposure" I think he's definitely right to fight this.

It all sounds like some dumb misunderstanding, but the band come off as bullies. At least this photographer has a voice now. Twenty years ago I'm sure this guy would've had to just take the abuse and move on. Hopefully, this story keeps gaining traction and the bullying with these photographers is put to a stop.
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maladie
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:42 am
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Location: Norway
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:04 pm 
 

AE are definitely in the wrong here and I can't believe a bunch of musicians out of all people would use the exposure card. By EU law what the third party did is commercial use and the photographer should be paid. Considering he asked for 100 euro donation to a cancer charity makes my mind boggled that it turned into such a big mess. Arch Enemy even deleted the status on their facebook page but are getting hammered by comments about the incident.

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Twisted_Psychology
Metal freak

Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 8:22 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:56 pm 
 

I swear this band is going out of their way to get everybody to hate them.
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Lord_Jotun
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Location: Italy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:58 pm 
 

Banning a photographer from their pit all because he dared to politely ask for a clearance fee for his work is bad enough, but that could still be dismissed as a childish, laughably unprofessional overreaction.

What really drives me up the wall is how they openly state that they'll engage in a shit-slinging campaign, reaching out to other bands with their own twisted version of what happened with the sole purpose of making it harder for him to get employed. That is total mobster behavior, and it turns out it's not an isolated incident in the Arch Enemy camp.
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Temple Of Blood
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:02 pm 
 

I could not care less about this faux controversy.

The bottom line is that their music stinks and that they use their singers to distract from that fact. That's the only thing that is significant here.
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Lord_Jotun
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:12 pm 
 

There's nothing "faux" about this controversy. They've been caught red handed in a breach of contract and their reaction was literally "fine, we'll make your life shit and that'll teach anyone to cross us".

It sets a dreadful precedent that must not be accepted or tolerated in any shape or form. I'm glad to see they're catching massive amounts of heat on all sides because of this, and I hope they get burnt to a crisp.
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Opus
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Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:49 pm 
 

Photographer post picture on instagram
Alissa repost it
Company that made Alissa's clothes reposts the same picture
Photographer claims company is using pic comercially

Is that how it went down?
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HideYourHole
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:28 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:21 pm 
 

Opus wrote:
Photographer post picture on instagram
Alissa repost it
Company that made Alissa's clothes reposts the same picture
Photographer claims company is using pic comercially

Is that how it went down?


More or less yes. And instead of the 500 euros he would normally charge for breach of copyright he asked the company to donate 100 euro to charity. Then the band doubled down on their (wrong) stance.

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CoconutBackwards
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:56 pm 
 

Here's the apology from the Thunderball Clothing:

https://www.facebook.com/thunderballclothing/photos/a.301509343278590/2016143075148533/
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GTog
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:03 pm 
 

Thunderball Clothing was completely 100% in the wrong. But, they were understandably in the wrong, since fair usage can sometimes occupy some gray area. Fine. Thing to do here is say "oops, sorry" and take it down.

Instead they contact AE about it. This was a weird thing to do. No reason to get AE involved at all. It certainly leaves one with the impression that they ran to their heavyweight friends to make photographer guy go away, so they could use his photo to promote their website without payment or consequence. Angela Gossow then brings the fury, accusing the photog of nefarious acts, including extortion. This is such a hugely disproportionate response that I suspect there's some other communication in there that neither side is telling us about.

The main thing that's got everyone pissed at AE though is this - it's impossible that Angela or Alissa, having been producing artists for many years, do not understand fair usage versus commercial usage. Can you imagine a situation where someone picked up an Arch Enemy song, even a snippet, and thought it would be ok to use it to advertise their own website? Holy shit, AE would destroy them, and rightfully. So not only was the response disproportionate, it was deliberate bullying.

I see now that Thunderball Clothing has posted an apology, which is great. Should have done that in the first place, and none of this would have happened. Angela and Alissa however, are keeping up the war, posting as recently as yesterday how the photographer started the whole thing, was rude, is ungrateful for the exposure, etc, etc.
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HeavenDuff
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Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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Location: Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:13 pm 
 

GTog wrote:
I see now that Thunderball Clothing has posted an apology, which is great. Should have done that in the first place, and none of this would have happened. Angela and Alissa however, are keeping up the war, posting as recently as yesterday how the photographer started the whole thing, was rude, is ungrateful for the exposure, etc, etc.


Thunderball Clothing's apology is quite welcome. Alyssa's post on her Facebook page saw both fans and artists/photographers league against them for all their bullshit, lies and stubborness. That whole thing about "exposure" really was the cherry on the shit sundae. What kind of musicians who have been living from their art their entire life would give into that backward rhetoric?


Last edited by HeavenDuff on Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Temple Of Blood
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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:16 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:22 pm 
 

Fans all the time steal/share artists work and say it's OK because it gives the band "exposure".

I see it constantly in unlicensed merch, YouTube uploads, file sharing, etc.

So what does that make these fans then?
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ThanatosUK
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:07 am
Posts: 214
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:30 pm 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
Fans all the time steal/share artists work and say it's OK because it gives the band "exposure".

I see it constantly in unlicensed merch, YouTube uploads, file sharing, etc.

So what does that make these fans then?


Just because it happens all the time doesn't mean it's right. Bootlegs, Youtube videos and uploaded files get deleted constantly because of copyright and the bootleggers/uploaders don't have a leg to stand on because they're obviously in the wrong.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:45 pm 
 

I_am_vengeance - for the love of Satan, don't use an unrelated thread to post an entirely new topic :annoyed: I've split the posts into this thread because it has nothing to do with their cover album.

Temple Of Blood wrote:
Fans all the time steal/share artists work and say it's OK because it gives the band "exposure".

I see it constantly in unlicensed merch, YouTube uploads, file sharing, etc.

So what does that make these fans then?

The photographer repeatedly said he had no problem with fans sharing his work non-commercially. Read the actual sources before posting your hot take next time. This is a different thing because Thunderball Clothing profited from his work. And the "exposure" argument has always been horseshit.

Seriously, this is not hard to understand.
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Temple Of Blood
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:16 am
Posts: 2439
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:52 pm 
 

ThanatosUK wrote:
Youtube videos and uploaded files get deleted constantly because of copyright and the bootleggers/uploaders don't have a leg to stand on because they're obviously in the wrong.


Well, they really don't get deleted much. Try searching for all your favorite metal bands on YouTube and you'll find most of their music there.

The way people are reacting to this controversy they are acting liking this is so rare and unheard of. Look at how popular this discussion is on reddit. AE are just a lightning rod for controversy because as a band they are so pathetic and vapid. They ae the Black-Eyed Peas of death metal.

The "exposure" argument is of course garbage but also as old as Napster (or older), so let's not get too shocked or outraged by any of this.

And yes, people profit on unlicensed merch.
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Pitiless Wanderer
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:34 pm
Posts: 771
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:53 pm 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
I could not care less about this faux controversy.

The bottom line is that their music stinks and that they use their singers to distract from that fact.


Thank you, my honest metal brother!

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I_Am_Vengeance
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:11 pm
Posts: 1821
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:09 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
I_am_vengeance - for the love of Satan, don't use an unrelated thread to post an entirely new topic :annoyed: I've split the posts into this thread because it has nothing to do with their cover album.


My bad :lol: I'm a little rusty and wasn't sure it was worth its own thread.
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I_Am_Vengeance
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Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:11 pm
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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:49 pm 
 

So Metal Blast have responded to Alissa's statement here: https://www.facebook.com/10305421647325 ... 059953552/
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EyesOfGlass
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Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:59 pm
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Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:51 pm 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
I could not care less about this faux controversy.

The bottom line is that their music stinks and that they use their singers to distract from that fact. That's the only thing that is significant here.


"Everything that is not about a band I'm fond of is fake and doesn't warrant attention."
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Temple Of Blood
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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:16 am
Posts: 2439
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:27 pm 
 

EyesOfGlass wrote:
Temple Of Blood wrote:
I could not care less about this faux controversy.

The bottom line is that their music stinks and that they use their singers to distract from that fact. That's the only thing that is significant here.


"Everything that is not about a band I'm fond of is fake and doesn't warrant attention."


And stealing others intellectual property is nothing new in the digital age and doesn't warrant this kid of outrage/attention.

Did you get all that?
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androdion
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Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:34 am
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:37 pm 
 

I think everyone did, and you're not entirely wrong with your argument since Arch Enemy as a band are easy to be hated. Yet this hole debacle is barely an excuse to hate since the band by the voice of its sponsor, manager and lead singer acted terribly wrong. And now its public so it's drama and pointing fingers time. Why feel surprised about it?! ;)
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traxan
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:54 pm 
 

Angela Gossow = German Yoko Ono. She will destroy this band.

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acid_bukkake
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:24 pm 
 

Oh please, like Gossow has even a fraction of the artistic integrity that Yoko possesses.

Fuck AE.
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pfk505
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Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:04 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:51 pm 
 

First, Arch Enemy sucks

Second, the photographer's dispute isn't even with them. If they felt it was their place to intervene on behalf of their sponsor, they should at least take the time to know the laws. Instead they appear to have doubled and tripled down on their own stupidity, thus inviting the parade of shit that they're now inundated with.

The photographer appears to have made one mistake - not realizing who the initial reply was from (after all, he never contacted Arch Enemy - they contacted him on behalf of their sponsor). I don't know how you fail to notice the Sender field on an email, but apparently he did. Nevertheless, how a band of their stature doesn't just apologize in this scenario boggles the mind. That said, they don't owe the guy anything, the clothing chick does. She'll clear this up and the story will go away.

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asmfc
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:24 am
Posts: 102
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:14 am 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
EyesOfGlass wrote:
Temple Of Blood wrote:
I could not care less about this faux controversy.

The bottom line is that their music stinks and that they use their singers to distract from that fact. That's the only thing that is significant here.


"Everything that is not about a band I'm fond of is fake and doesn't warrant attention."


And stealing others intellectual property is nothing new in the digital age and doesn't warrant this kid of outrage/attention.

Did you get all that?



So as I understand what you are saying is "stealing is OK because everybody is doing it"? Correct me if I am wrong. Or are you saying that everybody here has stolen/bootleged or whatever at some point and that everybody should be ashamed of accusing AE because we have all done it at some point?

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BastardHead
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:21 am 
 

Temple of Blood is a disingenuous turd in like 90% of the conversations he participates in. Best to just throw him on the ignore list and carry on with life.
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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:54 am 
 

How I being disingeuous? You keep using that word. I do not think you know what it means.
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KrigareTjovane
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:06 am
Posts: 248
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:19 am 
 

BastardHead wrote:
Temple of Blood is a disingenuous turd in like 90% of the conversations he participates in. Best to just throw him on the ignore list and carry on with life.

You're my savior. Had no idea that was a function of the forum until now. Thank you.
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SculptedCold
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:46 am 
 

The best part for me is the public 'exposure' of this lame band's total hypocrisy between their music's image/"message" and their actions. Of course metal is one of the most fantastical of musical genres and no-one expects most of its bands to live their lyrics. Yet when a band goes out of their way to unjustly screw a smaller fish with possible real-life (economic) consequences, it's right that they should get called-out for their unethical and hypocritical behaviour.
That their cookie-cutter music is like the antithesis of what their image and attitude attempts to project is just icing on the cake. I wouldn't shed a tear if their business takes some kind of dent.

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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:27 am 
 

Haha, holy shit, people oughta start sending Arch Enemy shovels so they can more easily keep digging themselves into a hole on this one. The Thunderball Clothing woman should have known better, but at least now she does, and there doesn't seem to be any real ill will on her part, so her apology is totally fine. But the Arch Enemy people...what are they thinking with this? It's like they're trying to make the band name a reality.
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HeavenDuff
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Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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Location: Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:37 am 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
And stealing others intellectual property is nothing new in the digital age and doesn't warrant this kid of outrage/attention.

Did you get all that?


Man, we're just talking about about news in the world of metal music, chill out. There's no outrage or excessive kind of attention being given to this. However, it is interesting to see how such established musicians, especially ones who have spent their entire career making money on revolutionary pseudo-left wing themes are reacting to a photograph asking for the respect of his copyrighted material and also their very stupid use of the "exposure" rhetoric.

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Acrobat
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:22 am 
 

traxan wrote:
Angela Gossow = German Yoko Ono. She will destroy this band.


Then, surely, we can all thank her?
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Lord_Jotun
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 5:02 pm
Posts: 2330
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:55 am 
 

Thunderball showed the only scrap of decency in this whole crapstorm.

Angela should just bless her connections inside the band. There's no way a regular band manager would still be employed after shitting the bed so spectacularly in the era of social media.
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Living_Ruins
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:06 am
Posts: 7
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:44 am 
 

I'm still a fan of Angela and Arch Enemy, but it seems like they're just used to seeing pictures of them as sort of gifts. And there's gotta be something behind the scenes, why would Angela overreact and get angry so easily, she's always been nice to people... I don't know. Strange shit. Where's Michael at this point?

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Everflowingstream
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:29 am
Posts: 464
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:21 am 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
I could not care less about this faux controversy.

The bottom line is that their music stinks and that they use their singers to distract from that fact. That's the only thing that is significant here.


Absolutely nailed it. Polished pop metal garbage for Wacken people. Amott wasted his talent.

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exsiccation
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:49 pm
Posts: 307
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:18 am 
 

Everflowingstream wrote:
Absolutely nailed it. Polished pop metal garbage for Wacken people. Amott wasted his talent.

Considering they're making pretty good money playing metal, you could probably argue against that point. :D

But yeah, they haven't made a good album in 15+ years and in this specific case, the band are coming across like jerks. You cannot use photos without people's permission, period. Just because you have an "understanding" with certain photographers, or just haven't got caught and called out yet, doesn't mean you can assume you can use anything. The behavior by Thunderball crossed a line and while they did take the photo down, the band and its management doubling down on the misuse of the photo and banning the photographer is a terrible look.

I'm glad the metal community is by and large rallying around this and supporting the photographer, not the band. Regardless of whether you like the band's music or not, their behavior is just flat-out unprofessional, and we should expect better from one of metal's biggest acts.

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Living_Ruins
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:06 am
Posts: 7
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:36 am 
 

Alissa says no commercial use was intended
https://preview.redd.it/7j616oiruu621.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=ee29d176d9699600811110cfaf4d2ab32908d6eb

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Pitiless Wanderer
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:34 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:46 am 
 

I might be the only one in this entire thread to say it, but reading the entire story and emails carefully actually allows me to see both sides here.

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