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Tornado
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:21 pm
Posts: 488
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:57 am 
 

chuggingpus wrote:
First off, I find Arch Enemy’s music to be awful, I am not a fan. I liked their first album when it came out, but not all that much.

Despite that, bands should be able to have control of who takes their photos, takes video, etc. of their performances. Why? Because they have the right to not be captured by unskilled photographers who may spread shitty photos around the web that poorly represent them. Or worse, poor sounding live videos that could deter people from attending their shows. They granted this guy access to both photograph them and access to a favorable area to do so. He shows no appreciation or value in that. He then takes a private matter public to sully a band’s reputation. Despite what tone or attitude their communication may have, this guy came at them as a lawyer. If you’re in the music business, you hate lawyers unless they’re working for you. Not very professional and I hope other bands tell him to fuck off when he requests special access to take their photos. He doesn’t have the right to bring his equipment into a concert and then receive access to a special area to take photos, that’s a granted privilege. If he wants to showcase the sausage making of the music business to shit on a band then other bands should take heed.


Hmmmmm! Very first post, strongly defending Arch Enemy. Are you…
1.) Angela Gossow?
2.) Alissa White-Gluz?
3.) Mike, Dan, Sharlee or Jeff from Arch Enemy?
4.) Famly member of Arch Enemy?
5.) Friend of Arch Enemy?

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chuggingpus
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:56 am
Posts: 20
Location: Vatican City
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:29 am 
 

Tornado wrote:
chuggingpus wrote:
First off, I find Arch Enemy’s music to be awful, I am not a fan. I liked their first album when it came out, but not all that much.

Despite that, bands should be able to have control of who takes their photos, takes video, etc. of their performances. Why? Because they have the right to not be captured by unskilled photographers who may spread shitty photos around the web that poorly represent them. Or worse, poor sounding live videos that could deter people from attending their shows. They granted this guy access to both photograph them and access to a favorable area to do so. He shows no appreciation or value in that. He then takes a private matter public to sully a band’s reputation. Despite what tone or attitude their communication may have, this guy came at them as a lawyer. If you’re in the music business, you hate lawyers unless they’re working for you. Not very professional and I hope other bands tell him to fuck off when he requests special access to take their photos. He doesn’t have the right to bring his equipment into a concert and then receive access to a special area to take photos, that’s a granted privilege. If he wants to showcase the sausage making of the music business to shit on a band then other bands should take heed.


Hmmmmm! Very first post, strongly defending Arch Enemy. Are you…
1.) Angela Gossow?
2.) Alissa White-Gluz?
3.) Mike, Dan, Sharlee or Jeff from Arch Enemy?
4.) Famly member of Arch Enemy?
5.) Friend of Arch Enemy?


I’ve actually been a member of the board for many years and had hundreds of posts. But recently the board has reset itself?

Arch Enemy allowed this guy special access for free. That was a cool gesture, they didn’t ask him for his services. They didn’t send him an invitation unless I’m missing something.

Their friends small company retweets a photo he takes because their singer is wearing something she made. This guy goes from webzine fanboy to lawyer. No offense to the photographers out there, but unless you’re hired for a wedding or documenting a war zone, not everyone sees you as all that essential. You snapped some nice photos, congrats. Now you want 500 euros?!! For a photo you took at a concert you were allowed into. Did you put on the show? Is it your venue? Is it your band? No? Then you’re a fanboy with a camera.

I’m not associated with Arch Enemy at all. Have never met or communicated with the members. I just hate seeing parasites play underdog.

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Living_Ruins
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:06 am
Posts: 7
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:35 am 
 

Apparently, a photographer friend of Alissa came to the defense of Arch Enemy, but he seemingly deleted his post. I'm not sure if he was mentioned here

Quote:
"“I see a lot of photographers and non-photographers posting their “insight” on the Arch Enemy photo situation, so being that I am a photographer who often works closely with Alissa, I figured I would chime in with my 2 cents… take it for what its worth.

If someone reposts your image on instagram (with credit), and your first instinct is to attack them and ask them to pay you obscene amounts of money or trap them into a forced self-created negative pr situation… you need a new hobby or a new job. (I say hobby because most photographers who do this for an actual living tend to know better). If someone reposts an image you don’t want them to repost you simply reach out politely asking them to take it down before you get aggressive and start burning your own bridges toward someone you claim to like working with or claim to be a fan of.

The specifics of this situation is 6 months ago, a lawyer, who is also a photographer got upset at a custom clothing designer who designs Alissa’s stage clothes. Alissa re-posted this photographers image with photo credit and the watermark, and then her clothing designer reposted Alissa’s post of this photographers image with credit and the watermark. He claims the clothing designer was using the image to try to sell the outfit… which isn’t for sale, it was custom made for Alissa. So instead of being polite, diplomatic, or respectful, he sends an extortive message demanding they pay an obscene amount of money (€500) and then guilted them with an “either pay this obscene amount of money, or pay €100 as a donation to cancer research” – which is obviously pre-gaming the post to bash them for “not (forcibly) donating to people in need”. give me a break… this post he made was pre-planned the moment he gave that insane ultimatum (keep in mind this dude is a lawyer). Both Alissa and her friend, the clothing designer, immediately removed the photos after the nasty email and there was some back and fourth… where he continued to insist he is owed an obscene amount of money, and the band said no, the photos had already been taken down anyway and they swore to never use his work again… but he kept pushing asking for compensation after the fact, ending with management stepping in and finally responding that this photographer is no longer welcomed to photograph Arch Enemy (well…DUH). Then… 6 months after the fact… they make this post for attention… slandering the band… and now photographers really think Arch Enemy did something wrong here?! hell no!

Whats the end game there? they donate or pay you and the band never works with you again/tells other bands, their management, their label, their publicist that this photographer will drop a lawsuit if you repost their images on instagram with credit?! – you’re now a liability, there goes your career (or hobby)

Listen… if you photograph bands live, and post those photos, expect people to repost them. If the band reposts them and you don’t want them to, reach out to them, don’t immediately threaten them/send them extortive invoices with out any prior contact or agreement.

These photographers who go after bands for reposting their photos are the same one who complain about photo-releases/right grabs… which exist because of PHOTOGRAPHERS WHO GO AFTER BANDS FOR REPOSTING THEIR PHOTOS. – its an easy way to ruin your career and make sure you don’t work with bands, ever. I wouldn’t be shocked if AE starts having photo-releases moving forward because of this situation, and each photographer who groans about it… this is why. These situations are why they exist. I thought it was funny that in the article he mentioned release forms as something take advantage of photographers, but his actions are what cause bands to implement them.

I am not saying don’t value your work… If a band was using your image for a shirt, for a dvd, for commercial usage, of course you should work out compensation… but don’t shoot a show the band gave you access to and expect them to be obligated to pay you to repost a photo you’d already posted on the internet with out a pre-existing agreement or contact – thats just insanity. Not to mention, a band re-posting your image with credit, showing their vast fanbase your name and your work… absolutely doesn’t hurt your career one bit. Its how my career got momentum… fans, bands, brands, magazines, managers, publicists etc. seeing bands post my photos with my name and watermark on them. This is why I never understood the mentality of a photographer being upset when a band would re-post one of their images (with credit) on social media, promoting that photographer! It is an exercise in ignorant futility to attack bands for promoting you and your work.

If you treat your photography like a constant legal battle between yourself and people who re-post your images on the internet, thats your prerogative… but the amount of time you spend on take down notices for reposts is time you aren’t spending working on your photos or booking more work… seems like a big waste of time. If you post photos of bands you’ve taken on the internet and get upset every time anyone reposts it… you probably should avoid posting photos of bands you’ve taken… or avoid social networking entirely. And while you do own the copyright to your images of course, if you are going to consider anyone who re-posts your post, promoting you and your work, as a copyright infringement case… you are not going to have a good time as a photographer. And while you can message them politely, you absolutely have the right to send over an obscene extortive invoice or cease and desist letter, but whats that going to get you? how could anyone possibly see that ending well? And of course photo credit doesnt pay your bills, but if you expect every band to pay you every time a band re-posts your image on instagram, you are sorely mistaken. And while you can make the argument that photo credit wont pay your bills, I assure you, burning bridges in the music industry is far more detrimental to your bills being unpaid than photo credit.

I hate to see all this negativity coming from the concert photographer realm, but It keeps happening… and its usually from photographers who shoot concerts for some reason. let me help… you should not be a concert photographer if you are this angry about being a concert photographer… do it if you love it. don’t do it if it makes you a miserable person. I also think these situations are what hold photographers back from becoming career photographers… you trivialize the relationship between photographers and their subjects not knowing that sending a band an extortive message (or friends of the band, i.e. THEIR CLOTHING DESIGNER!) will blacklist you and hold your career back. The music world is small… don’t think one band blacklisting you means only one band wont want to work with you… thats seen by many. you are now a liability. bands don’t want to get sued, they don’t want to be threatened. they will tell magazines they wont let you shoot them, they will tell sites and managers and venues and publicists… and i assure you, they all talk to each other, much like many concert photographers do.

As much as you might be able to argue the legality of what you think you are owed… you cant argue your way onto a guest list, you cant argue yourself a photo pass, and you cant argue yourself into paid work when you’re blacklisted.

I am not saying you should undervalue your work as a photographer or not know your rights with your copyrighted work… I am just saying to keep things in perspective and realistic. if you want to work with bands, don’t damage your working relationship with them. If a band posts a photo with out credit, message them politely and ask them to fix it, if a band reposts a photo and you don’t want them to, politely message them, they will likely remove it, they have plenty of other photos from plenty of other photographers to choose from, If they do not comply, if they are disrespectful to you… that is when you can become upset and take action… but don’t start off your communication by threatening bands, managers, or people who work with the band… it wont get you anywhere but NOWHERE.

pro tip:
scenario one: a company re-posts your image on a social network from one of their artists, with out your permission, you message them saying hi im the photographer of this work, im glad you like it, usually i charge for usage, as I own the copyright, but would like to work for your company and do shoots for you in the future if you ever need a paid photographer. – which can lead to paid hired work.

scenero two: a company re-posts your image on a social network from one of their artists, with out your permission, you message them an invoice for an obscene amount of money demanding they pay it due to copyright infringement, they take down the image and block you, they message other companies, management, and the band letting them know, the management team bans you, and messages the label, venues, publicist, the band messages other bands… all of them block you.

which one of these seem like a better way to go about this?

sure this photographer has a slew of photographers rallying behind them with their post… they also have bands, managers, publicists, labels, etc. reading their post… slandering a band well known for their professionalism and kindness isn’t a good look… and while this may give this photographer a moment of fame… it’ll be their last one… its a coffin nail for any band, label, publicist, or venue wanting to ever have anything to do with you.

Remember, those photos you are upset they are reposting wouldn’t exist with out them… and you wont have photos of bands for others to repost when you’re blacklisted from shooting bands.

lastly, if you follow Alissa, you know she goes above and beyond to credit any photographer she posts a photo from… she will message and respond to photographers, she truly cares about artists of every medium more so than pretty much anyone else you will find. Alissa and Arch Enemy also make sure photographers are compensated for any commercial work/commercial usage of their images (merch, cds, shirts, ads, etc). So putting her on blast is just silly considering how incredibly she treats photographers and to say other wise is ridiculous. You would be hard pressed to find another artist who treats photographers so well, goes out of her way to message and respond to them, makes sure they are properly credited and respects photographers as much as she does.

So… thats my two cents on it all, burning bridges is a great album, but not a great thing to do with bands if you want to be a photographer in the music industry.”

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Xymosys
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:19 am
Posts: 479
Location: Croatia
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:35 pm 
 

too much words, too little metal :(
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Don Karlos
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:44 am
Posts: 56
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:20 pm 
 

Too bad, i liked those jackets/vest, last saw them with Vader. Hopefully its not affecting Crystal Viper as a band.

I agree with many before, AE is only money-cow for those involved, and are doing more harm than good to Heavy-metal.
But do those people who are photographing gigs, (promotional photosessions are different case) actually making any money?, and i dont mean that
copyrights are any way related to that.

Anyway Gabriel maybe should have contacted photographer, weird that she had no experience about these things since many bands are wearing her clothing.
I think AE was out of line with their behaviour.

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Twilightkid
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:41 pm
Posts: 90
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:18 pm 
 

KrigareTjovane wrote:
Boy 6 years ago really DOES feel like 10-15 years ago... :o


3 pages worth of discussion on this topic, and this is what you offer. Calling me out cause I had a vague memory of a somewhat similar type instance, and got the dates wrong...

you got me!
kudos!!
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9762
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:54 pm 
 

Zodijackyl wrote:
1) The photographer was reasonable to expect compensation for commercial use of his work, and there is a point to be made about frequent improper use of photographers' work. That being said, the way he went about it - asking for a fee or a donation to charity, rather than cease-and-desist, comes across more like extortion than a legitimate legal action. As an attorney, he would know this, and as a metal writer, I'm sure he knew what he was doing in trying to make this a story.

2) Arch Enemy & co. handled this poorly and unprofessionally. Professionally-managed bands should know better than to get into public spats like this. At best, they are embarrassing, at worst they come out like this.

3) Marta Gabriel handled this honestly and fairly, yet she has faced the worst consequences for this. What was technically a mistake was still trivial, at worst. Hope things work out for her.

4) Anyone threatening or sending hate mail should be ashamed for their pathetic sliver of involvement.

Agreed with all of this.

Especially #3 and #4.

Seriously, fuck everyone who sent insults or harassment to Marta Gabriel here. You're a piece of shit, period.

Twilightkid wrote:
3 pages worth of discussion on this topic, and this is what you offer. Calling me out cause I had a vague memory of a somewhat similar type instance, and got the dates wrong...

you got me!
kudos!!

It's light ribbing, lighten up dude.
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CrippledLucifer
Metalhead

Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 5:08 am
Posts: 494
Location: Denmark
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:35 pm 
 

So a guy gets caught by a band in the process of blackmailing one of their collaborators, gets subsequently banned from performances by said band. Okay.

Morrigan wrote:
Thunderball Clothing wrote:
Within last 2 days I received literally hundreds of comments and messages that I'm a whore, a nazi, a communist, a worthless cunt, and that I either should quickly die, or that I should kill myself.


Fucking hell. I don't know why I didn't see this coming, but I totally should have.

What the fuck is wrong with these assholes?


I would wager that the way this photographer guy has basically used the internet to stir shit and point fingers perhaps had something to do with this happening. Seeing this extremely unprofessional way of handling a supposed business dispute (with the result that Marta Gabriel has been forced to close shop AFTER both apologizing AND submitting to the emotional blackmail of donating to charity money she probably did not make off his work), it boggles the mind that this guy is actually a lawyer, and it is troubling that this guy is not being called out more.

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MawBTS
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:16 am
Posts: 809
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:30 pm 
 

Can a lawyer confirm that it's actually illegal to do this? I have my doubts.

Here's the sequence of events: the photographer posted the photo on his IG, then Alyssa reposted it on her IG, then Thunderball reposted HER repost on their IG. The photographer takes issue with Thunderball using his photo because they're promoting products with it (Alyssa has links to merch and whatever in her IG, but he didn't seem to care about that.)

"Reposting" seems legally vague. Thunderball didn't steal raw data from the dude's camera roll, they're showing their fans a picture that's ALREADY on Instagram. Basically, they pointed a finger and said "look at this cool picture on someone else's page!" Is that infringing the dude's copyright? I'm not sure.

There's another issue: Thunderball's products appear in the photo, and they're a critical part of the shot - the photo wouldn't have had the same impact if Alyssa was wearing jeans and a t-shirt, or a mumu. I'm not saying he needs Thunderball's permission to photograph their stuff, but can he really assert unambiguous ownership over the resultant photograph?

Also, what law would even apply here? Canadian law (Alyssa's place of residence?) Californian law (where Instagram's parent company Facebook is incorporated?) Whatever country the photographer lives in (probably Sweden, based on his surname? edit: actually the Netherlands)

Quote:
So a guy gets caught by a band in the process of blackmailing one of their collaborators


"Blackmailing" is a ludicrous and inflammatory way to frame this, even though I have misgivings about what he's doing.

He asked for money to be donated to charity in exchange for leaving the photo up. If Marta didn't want to pay it, she could have said "that's a no from me, dawg" and deleted the photo. And he did try to resolve it in private with her first: he didn't put her on blast with no warning.

Quote:
with the result that Marta Gabriel has been forced to close shop AFTER both apologizing AND submitting to the emotional blackmail of donating to charity money she probably did not make off his work


I have my doubts about her story as well. ALL of her customers cancelled/returned their orders? For real? HUNDREDS of comments calling her a whore/nazi? She counted? She deleted her IG but on her FB the comments seem fairly positive.

It wouldn't surprise me if her business was already spiraling the drain and she used this as an excuse to cut her losses.

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GTog
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:35 pm
Posts: 1050
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:55 pm 
 

^ You're missing one important bit - Thunderball posted the image with a link to their shop. That morphed an ordinary fair usage into a commercial usage. Doesn't matter that the photographer put it up on the internet himself. Doesn't matter that someone else reposted it. Only thing that matters is that it was being used to sell something.

Seems like splitting hairs, I know, but that's kind of the whole point of this conversation. A rather minor thing elicited a completely disproportionate response from Arch Enemy, and now here we are.

I also kind of doubt that Marta's gone forever. She appears to have real talent. An artist can't help but make art. I was married to one for 12 years, it's just how they are. I also know that they can be a bit (ahem) hyperbolic, so I doubt that literally every single one of her customers abandoned her as some sort of unprecedented internet expression of solidarity for some random photographer guy. She'll be back, and she deserves to be.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9762
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:00 am 
 

MawBTS wrote:
I have my doubts about her story as well. ALL of her customers cancelled/returned their orders? For real? HUNDREDS of comments calling her a whore/nazi? She counted? She deleted her IG but on her FB the comments seem fairly positive.

It wouldn't surprise me if her business was already spiraling the drain and she used this as an excuse to cut her losses.

Are you new to the internet? Women online get harassed into oblivion constantly for the stupidest shit (trust me, I'd know). If she were slightly more famous she'd have thousands of hate messages, not hundreds, even. There is zero reason to doubt her story or to make up conspiracy theories. As for the comments on FB she probably deleted the worst of it.
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Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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HaPoStaPu
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:20 am
Posts: 165
Location: Armenia
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:16 am 
 

thrashinbatman wrote:
HaPoStaPu wrote:
Legally the lawyer(...:-p)/photographer is correct but I still think that if someone is taking a picture of me then I should be able to use it as well. After all it's the person in the picture that gives it value. It's just good manners really. Didn't read all the arguing between them that followed. I'm sure they'll get over it once they get diagnosed with cancer or when smth a bit more real happens in their lives.

Well, he said he was fine with it when Alissa or fans shared it. It was when Thunderball shared it, ostensibly to use for advertisement, that he took an issue.


Didn't he immediately ask for money though? Again, legally, I'm sure, it's all correct, but I'd still feel slightly annoyed if someone takes a picture of me then asks me for money if I or some company that's supporting me, which I assume is the case here as (sorry, if wrong, I just cant be bothered to read through the hole thing in detail), is using it. Yeah, he's being all generous and wants to give it to a cancer charity instead of taking his usual 500 but it's still sort of a blackmail situation.

As for the company, in their position I'd probably just take it down, say sorry, we thought it would be fine and be done with it, and ignore any further demands of cash if I really don't want to pay for it (which I wouldn't :-P)

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thrashinbatman
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 1036
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:52 am 
 

Well, I mean, what else is he supposed to do? If he legally had the right to do, which I think he did, then he wasn't in the wrong. She used it for commercial purposes, and he was within his rights to ask for compensation for that. I'm sure if they had just said no thanks and took it down he'd deem that acceptable.

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Lord_Jotun
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 5:02 pm
Posts: 2336
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:49 am 
 

Latest update; Salmeron himself speaking up again.

To me his stance seems consistent with what he had stated earlier on, and he comes across once again as a chill dude with whom you could sort things out easily enough.
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true_death
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:47 pm
Posts: 1851
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:03 am 
 

It's really amazing how much drama can come out of only an Instagram (re)post. Granted, I don't have Instagram and only vaguely understand what it is, but the fact that this woman had to end her entire business over reposting a picture of her own product is just ridiculous to me :lol:.

One thing I will add, as it's marginally related to this story - I'm not sure about Gossow, it's already well-established that White-Gluz is a terrible person. Basically, she joined Arch Enemy without telling anyone in The Agonist (her old band) and months later basically told them they had to postpone all tours, recording, etc. so she could work with this 'mystery band' (they didn't even know who it was and she refused to tell them despite telling Century Media they had given the 'OK'). She expected everyone in the band to put their lives on hold so she could live her dream, and when the members decided to replace her she became enraged because she didn't "want anyone but her to sing her songs" :lol:. She's apparently been slandering the band in the press every chance she gets, ever since. There are a lot of other little details, but the full story can be found: here.
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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
Posts: 11409
Location: Tyrn Gorthad
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:08 am 
 

HaPoStaPu wrote:
Didn't he immediately ask for money though? Again, legally, I'm sure, it's all correct, but I'd still feel slightly annoyed if someone takes a picture of me then asks me for money if I or some company that's supporting me, which I assume is the case here as (sorry, if wrong, I just cant be bothered to read through the hole thing in detail), is using it. Yeah, he's being all generous and wants to give it to a cancer charity instead of taking his usual 500 but it's still sort of a blackmail situation.


"I'm too lazy to read what actually happened, so here's my completely uninformed opinion on what didn't even happen."

C'mon, man. Your assessment isn't remotely accurate. This is why we can't have nice things.
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FirebathDan
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 2:32 pm
Posts: 1202
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:33 am 
 

High level of density that people would use the words "blackmail" and "extortion" as it relates to this story.

thrashinbatman wrote:
Well, I mean, what else is he supposed to do? If he legally had the right to do, which I think he did, then he wasn't in the wrong. She used it for commercial purposes, and he was within his rights to ask for compensation for that. I'm sure if they had just said no thanks and took it down he'd deem that acceptable.


In a nutshell.

A photograph is an original creative work and should thus be properly handled as such when used for commercial purposes. No two ways around it.

All that said, the harassment directed towards Thuderball is revolting. She should not have been harassed into closing shop over this situation, end of discussion. There truly is no hope for humanity.
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MutantClannfear
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:45 am 
 

At this point I feel like the lawyer has a moral obligation to more definitively clear Marta’s name of wrongdoing. He called this shitshow on her and fucked up her life, inadvertently or not. Now that he’s in the spotlight he needs to explicitly tell everyone to leave her the hell alone. I was on his side at the beginning of this, but the longer he goes without acknowledging the impact it had on her, the shittier of a person he seems to me.

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Lord_Jotun
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 5:02 pm
Posts: 2336
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:15 pm 
 

He can't be held responsible for the shitbags who bombarded Thunderball with insults and threats, though. And the shitshow was started by Gossow, not by him; all he did was ask for a rightful compensation for the usage of his work and whatever happened next can never change the fact he was in the right.

He also stated he's ok with Thunderball:
Quote:
The photographer also said that the apology issued by Thunderball Clothing owner Marta Gabriel “was absolutely heartfelt, and I gladly accept it,” pointing out that Arch Enemy “clearly did Marta a disservice by acting the way they did, and now they left her out to dry.”

“Marta has acted like the adult in the room, issuing this apology, and wanting to make amends. I think we can agree that both Angela and Alissa could learn from this, as their answers demonstrate a worrying lack of self-awareness.”


I guess he could be more explicit, but it's not his fault if people can't behave decently.
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MutantClannfear
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:34 pm 
 

I don’t think him saying he’s okay with her is enough, nor do I think the fact that he’s legally in the right is material here. If a witch hunt against Thunderball arose based on something he posted, even if he didn’t call for it, he has a moral obligation to reach out to the people raging and harassing people on his behalf and tell them to stop since it’s on his behalf that they’re doing it. It’s as simple as that.

EDIT: I realize my saying “he called a shitshow on her” in the first post may be confusing. I don’t mean to imply that he did so intentionally or that he is responsible for the actions of the harassers, just that he is uniquely poised in this situation to defuse them and should do so. The legal actions he took were justified, although I think his message to Thunderball could have been better worded. The rest of my position holds as written.

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Natskygge
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:49 am
Posts: 81
Location: Denmark
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:01 pm 
 

MutantClannfear wrote:
At this point I feel like the lawyer has a moral obligation to more definitively clear Marta’s name of wrongdoing. He called this shitshow on her and fucked up her life, inadvertently or not. Now that he’s in the spotlight he needs to explicitly tell everyone to leave her the hell alone. I was on his side at the beginning of this, but the longer he goes without acknowledging the impact it had on her, the shittier of a person he seems to me.

He says the following in the interview over at Metal Insider:

"Also, and I want to be really emphatic here, I’m sickened to hear that people have sent her any kind of threats or insults. Nobody should have taken my words to justify any kind of abuse against her, or against anyone else for that matter. It’s absolutely sickening to see that people feel justified in sending any kind of insults or attacks simply because they want to demonstrate their solidarity with me. How is that solidarity? What we wanted was to stand up against a behavior that could be used to silence or bully people who stood up for their rights! I don’t want anyone who supported me to feel justified in bullying anyone, let alone in sending racist, misogynist or threatening messages."

and

"I’m particularly worried about the backlash that Thunderball Clothing has received as a result of what happened. I don’t want her company to go out of business, I don’t want Crystal Viper, Marta’s band, to lose fans. Hers was a minor infraction that was blown completely out of proportion by a, to say the least, incompetent management team on the part of Arch Enemy. She has apologized, she wants to make amends and, like anybody else who makes a mistake, she deserves the chance to move on from that mistake. And, just in case there are any doubts (as I’m sure there will be, since I’ve been accused plenty of times in the last couple of days of being “after money”), I am not saying this because I’ve received anything in exchange. I still don’t want to see a single dollar or Euro for this problem. None."

and

"To my supporters: Don’t be dicks to people, don’t threaten or insult others to show that you agree with me. That’s not the support that I want. Show that you believe with the principle of standing up for the rights of others, even with those of the people you disagree with."

I'd say he's quite explicitly making it clear that he doesn't think it's right what happened to Thunderball Clothing.

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iamntbatman
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Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:06 pm 
 

All very good, and well said.
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HaPoStaPu
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:20 am
Posts: 165
Location: Armenia
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:18 pm 
 

iamntbatman wrote:
HaPoStaPu wrote:
Didn't he immediately ask for money though? Again, legally, I'm sure, it's all correct, but I'd still feel slightly annoyed if someone takes a picture of me then asks me for money if I or some company that's supporting me, which I assume is the case here as (sorry, if wrong, I just cant be bothered to read through the hole thing in detail), is using it. Yeah, he's being all generous and wants to give it to a cancer charity instead of taking his usual 500 but it's still sort of a blackmail situation.


"I'm too lazy to read what actually happened, so here's my completely uninformed opinion on what didn't even happen."

C'mon, man. Your assessment isn't remotely accurate. This is why we can't have nice things.


That's as far as my interest goes re other people's drama, I'm afraid :-) maybe I'll read it later but I've got a dire view of humanity already....

I think we can't have nice things as people make a big stink about the use of their/a photograph. All of those involved could have earned €100 in the time they wasted on this I reckon.

But I do know some people get into endless arguments over minor stuff, I've sold used clothing on eBay once (never again lol).

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MutantClannfear
Blank Czech

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 12:12 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:22 pm 
 

Natskygge wrote:
He says the following in the interview over at Metal Insider:
[...]
I'd say he's quite explicitly making it clear that he doesn't think it's right what happened to Thunderball Clothing.

Yeah, that’s what I was hoping to see. Good on him, I rescind what I said. Thanks for linking that!

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HaPoStaPu
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:20 am
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Location: Armenia
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:30 pm 
 

FirebathDan wrote:
High level of density that people would use the words "blackmail" and "extortion" as it relates to this story.

thrashinbatman wrote:
Well, I mean, what else is he supposed to do? If he legally had the right to do, which I think he did, then he wasn't in the wrong. She used it for commercial purposes, and he was within his rights to ask for compensation for that. I'm sure if they had just said no thanks and took it down he'd deem that acceptable.


In a nutshell.

A photograph is an original creative work and should thus be properly handled as such when used for commercial purposes. No two ways around it.

All that said, the harassment directed towards Thuderball is revolting. She should not have been harassed into closing shop over this situation, end of discussion. There truly is no hope for humanity.


My use of blackmail was slightly tongue in cheek as he straight away seemed to have demanded money for the captured picture of an artist (who he probably didn't ask if he could take a picture of?).

A more diplomatic approach can go a long way and help to resolve issues amicably. Listen, empathise, ask, paraphrase and resolve :-p

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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:53 pm 
 

A more educated approach, where you actually read what happens, goes a long way as well.
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Natskygge
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:49 am
Posts: 81
Location: Denmark
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:17 pm 
 

MutantClannfear wrote:
Natskygge wrote:
He says the following in the interview over at Metal Insider:
[...]
I'd say he's quite explicitly making it clear that he doesn't think it's right what happened to Thunderball Clothing.

Yeah, that’s what I was hoping to see. Good on him, I rescind what I said. Thanks for linking that!

You're welcome! :)

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Lord_Jotun
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 5:02 pm
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Location: Italy
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:07 pm 
 

That leaves only Angela and Alissa as the real bullies and dunces on display. Great job digging a massive hole for your career over something that would have gone smoothly left to more mature people! Now make sure you take all the fucktards who threatened Marta down with you and the world shall be a better place.
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Terri23
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:57 pm 
 

This isn't the first time Angela Gossow has shown herself to be a cunt. She's effectively destroyed her friends business through being a self entitled cunt. There was no need to double down, but she just couldn't help herself.
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Space_alligator
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Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:43 am
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:54 pm 
 

I think Angela and Alissa have been caught off gaurd, it seems like they expected their fan base to completely side with them. From the general consensus on social media (Alissa lovers aside) , i get the feeling that the fan base is put off by the behaviour.

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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:54 pm 
 

HaPoStaPu wrote:
That's as far as my interest goes re other people's drama, I'm afraid :-)


If that's how you feel, that's fine, but then you need to get the fuck out of this thread. Seriously, stop posting about things you are not remotely informed about.
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MawBTS
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:16 am
Posts: 809
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:19 pm 
 

Quote:
^ You're missing one important bit - Thunderball posted the image with a link to their shop. That morphed an ordinary fair usage into a commercial usage. Doesn't matter that the photographer put it up on the internet himself. Doesn't matter that someone else reposted it. Only thing that matters is that it was being used to sell something.


The image had no links, you needed to go to Thunderball's main IG page to find their shop (or so I assume, the page is deleted now). And Alyssa was selling stuff on her IG profile too (yes, I'm aware Alyssa White-gluz is not a business.)

Look, you're probably right that this is commercial usage. I have no grounds to argue otherwise, except that it feels a bit odd.

Quote:
Are you new to the internet? Women online get harassed into oblivion constantly for the stupidest shit (trust me, I'd know). If she were slightly more famous she'd have thousands of hate messages, not hundreds, even. There is zero reason to doubt her story or to make up conspiracy theories. As for the comments on FB she probably deleted the worst of it.


Suppose you bought some spiked wristbands online. Then you see that the company is involved in nearly incomprehensible internet drama involving a freaking IG photo. Would you then find your receipt, submit an RMA with the vendor, repackage the wristbands (cleaning with water+isopropyl if they got dirty), post it back internationally at a cost of maybe $10-20, wait to see if the vendor honors the RMA, issue a bank chargeback if they don't, deal with potential post office issues (some countries consider spiked items of clothing to be weapons), etc?

Because Angela Gossow is claiming that ALL of Marta's customers did that. She didn't even say "some". Does that sound remotely believable to you?

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Lord_Jotun
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 5:02 pm
Posts: 2336
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:44 am 
 

Well, one thing does not negate the other in this case.
I don't doubt for a second that women get harassed online on a disturbingly frequent basis, but I'm also positive Angela is prone to talking out of her ass, as this very discussion confirmed.
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Mass Suicide
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:32 am
Posts: 92
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:46 am 
 

EVERYBODY gets harassed online for whatever shit these days, men, women, children, whatever. It's a sign of hyper-emotional times and too much internet.

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BrutalizerUtilizerOfTheShadows
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:47 pm 
 

It's official: Arch Enemy is the new Nickelback. Does that equate Alissa White-Gluz to Chad Kroeger?
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GTog
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:35 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:20 pm 
 

MawBTS wrote:
The image had no links, you needed to go to Thunderball's main IG page to find their shop (or so I assume, the page is deleted now). And Alyssa was selling stuff on her IG profile too (yes, I'm aware Alyssa White-gluz is not a business.


No. I've been following this thing longer than the thread on MA. It got forwarded to me from a musician I follow on Facebook. I don't know where she got a hold of it. The post that started the whole thing was Thunderball Clothing reposting the picture of Alissa on their own Instagram feed, complete with a plug for the custom made top and a link to their shop. It's all since been deleted, probably on the advice of lawyers, but that's the way it was.
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ObservationSlave
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:27 pm
Posts: 1020
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:24 pm 
 

MawBTS wrote:
Morrigan wrote:
Are you new to the internet? Women online get harassed into oblivion constantly for the stupidest shit (trust me, I'd know). If she were slightly more famous she'd have thousands of hate messages, not hundreds, even. There is zero reason to doubt her story or to make up conspiracy theories. As for the comments on FB she probably deleted the worst of it.


Suppose you bought some spiked wristbands online. Then you see that the company is involved in nearly incomprehensible internet drama involving a freaking IG photo. Would you then find your receipt, submit an RMA with the vendor, repackage the wristbands (cleaning with water+isopropyl if they got dirty), post it back internationally at a cost of maybe $10-20, wait to see if the vendor honors the RMA, issue a bank chargeback if they don't, deal with potential post office issues (some countries consider spiked items of clothing to be weapons), etc?

Because Angela Gossow is claiming that ALL of Marta's customers did that. She didn't even say "some". Does that sound remotely believable to you?


If there is a reddit thread about this with nearly 4K comments on it, I think it is completely reasonable to believe she has received hundreds of hate messages stemming from this story. Regarding the merch point, I think the use of the world "All" was probably not meant to be taken as "100%." That's a weird thing to pick out when everything Angela Gossow writes is in broken English anyway.

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Bingewolf
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 pm
Posts: 381
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:26 pm 
 

I feel the band is getting railroaded a bit and the woman who is now closing her business because of this is just the icing on the cake. Sure, Angela was a bit too aggressive in her initial response to the photog - but this guy is a complete worm for using this as a publicity stunt. From the moment of his first interaction, he comes across as a tool (specifically the "or you can donate to a charity of my choosing" line in the DM thread).

If he had approached everyone civilly and said "Look, you may not know that this is a copyright violation but it is and I'd like you to remove the post or to pay me for it..." that is one thing, but he took the chance to be an aggressive prick as soon as he had it and then used the experience to publicize himself. To me, that screams "scumbag".

It is also a privilege to be given photo credentials for a band - and said band can take those away at any time, for any reason. So, if you're a douchebag to a band, they can absolutely tell you to fuck off and deny you shooting them in the future.

No one in the situation is 100% right or wrong here, but I feel that this has spiraled into something much bigger than what it actually is. The internet loves a good witch hunt and to ruin who they view as "wrong". I find it really scummy that people have attacked the woman this way and she feels like she has to shutter her business and go into hiding. I find it crazy that the band is being lambasted for telling the guy he is no longer welcome to shoot their performances.

I know I'm in the minority, but I feel bad for AE/Marta in this whole thing... (and no, I don't have any connection to the band or listen to them)

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MawBTS
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:16 am
Posts: 809
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:53 pm 
 

GTog wrote:
MawBTS wrote:
The image had no links, you needed to go to Thunderball's main IG page to find their shop (or so I assume, the page is deleted now). And Alyssa was selling stuff on her IG profile too (yes, I'm aware Alyssa White-gluz is not a business.


No. I've been following this thing longer than the thread on MA. It got forwarded to me from a musician I follow on Facebook. I don't know where she got a hold of it. The post that started the whole thing was Thunderball Clothing reposting the picture of Alissa on their own Instagram feed, complete with a plug for the custom made top and a link to their shop. It's all since been deleted, probably on the advice of lawyers, but that's the way it was.


Really? The photog didn't mention anything about that in his post, he just posted this screencap (which mentions products but doesn't have a link). I assumed that was the full extent of the story.

Image

Quote:
If there is a reddit thread about this with nearly 4K comments on it, I think it is completely reasonable to believe she has received hundreds of hate messages stemming from this story. Regarding the merch point, I think the use of the world "All" was probably not meant to be taken as "100%." That's a weird thing to pick out when everything Angela Gossow writes is in broken English anyway.


I went there - everyone's talking about Alyssa, Angela, and Arch Enemy. I had to scroll for a long time before Marta/Thunderball's name even got mentioned.

Look, I'm sure Marta received SOME hate and cancelled orders but if this destroyed her business, it then it was probably on its last legs anyway.

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Miikja
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:36 pm
Posts: 41
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:47 pm 
 

Bingewolf wrote:
If he had approached everyone civilly and said "Look, you may not know that this is a copyright violation but it is and I'd like you to remove the post or to pay me for it..."

But that's exactly what he did.

Bingewolf wrote:
took the chance to be an aggressive prick as soon as (s)he had it

And that's exactly what Gossow did.

Bingewolf wrote:
It is also a privilege to be given photo credentials for a band - and said band can take those away at any time, for any reason. So, if you're a douchebag to a band, they can absolutely tell you to fuck off and deny you shooting them in the future.

Did you read the whole story? It's really weird how someone would come to these conclusions if they had actually read the story. Start here: https://www.metalblast.net/blog/how-i-g ... rch-enemy/ Lots of ins, lots of outs, lots of what-have-yous.

Bingewolf wrote:
I find it crazy that the band is being lambasted for telling the guy he is no longer welcome to shoot their performances.

If you read the whole story, you'll understand that the photographer didn't do anything wrong. You can take issue with the fact that he went public with the story, but he clearly and repeatedly states he's not doing it just for himself (he's actually had no problem attending OR photographing AE shows in the months after the email exchange + he has a dayjob) but also in defense of other photographers who may depend more on their creative work for their income. As he rightfully points out, bigger bands routinely force photographers to 'sign away' their copyright on pictures taken of the band. Do you get the implications of a story like this? In my view, it is power abuse. The photographer is standing up for the little guy/girl and we should be happy for the discussion this debacle has unleashed. Awareness is good.

Bingewolf wrote:
I know I'm in the minority, but I feel bad for AE/Marta in this whole thing...

I think almost everybody feels bad for Marta by now. But AE is not even the issue here. It's Angela Gossow who really went out of her way to try and cause damage to the photographer's reputation. She really should have known better.
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