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BastardHead
Worse than the PMRC

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
Posts: 8958
Location: St. Charles, Illinois
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:38 am 
 

I'll try to help steer this back since a lot of people are kinda missing the point, since the question is about one band you don't like because of one detail (like hating King Diamond's falsettos or Rush's lyrics), and not general things that ruin general everythings (hating falsetto vocals or Ayn Rand lyrics in general).

I guess another band for me where I can recognize their talent but one detail just completely breaks them for me is Opeth. I like their death metal sections, I like their clean sections, I think Akerfeldt has an incredible voice both when growling and when singing, their drumming always stood out when Lopez was behind the kit, they have a lot of ingredients that would make them a great band. I'm not much a prog fan to begin with, but I don't dislike it on principle. With Opeth, their problem isn't that they're proggy or longwinded per se. It's that, even at their best, they absolutely can not transition one idea into another for the fucking life of them. Each section within every song transitions with an audible clunk. There will be a cool progdeath sequence going on and then *CLUNK* one attosecond later it smash cuts to a clean acoustic part, which carries a nice haunting melody with excellent vocals and then *CLUNK* we're in the middle of another heavy part. Repeat ad nauseam. Even when they aren't switching styles entirely, it feels like a total riff/pretties salad of unrelated ideas that just got mashed together with no real forethought. "Black Rose Immortal" is almost offensive in how bad it is with that. It had a reputation for a while as "the most epic Opeth song" simply because it was the longest (I haven't kept track of the band since 2008 so I don't know if they've surpassed it since) but really it just legit feels like four different songs smashed together haphazardly. The individual parts of the band are all totally fine, some of which are even fantastic, but everything is always assembled in such a blitheringly stupid way that I just can't get past my frustration no matter how many chances I give them.

Maybe it's gotten better in recent years since they've dropped the metal entirely, but calming prog rock is even less of my thing than disjointed prog metal so I have even less interest in checking them out nowadays.
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QuambisQuanabolisQuanabalinals
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:47 am
Posts: 1
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:15 pm 
 

I was just thinking about this last night. I really like the riffs, production, and vocals of Lord Gore in their album The Autophagous Orgy, but I hate that it uses so many horror movie samples. The samples are not short either, and they are mostly sexual gore monologues or violence against women.

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true_death
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:47 pm
Posts: 1691
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:41 pm 
 

I've never had a problem with Opeth's genre shifting but I do think Akerfeldt is one of the worst songwriters in any well-established metal band (yes, worse than Tony Lazaro - fight me! :lol:). I honestly really like the sort of gloomy, dreary, quasi-gothic atmosphere that is palpable on albums like Blackwater Park - it's very unique and maybe even iconic, but the songs always end up feeling disingenuous and self-indulgent to me because it feels like the length is only really justified because he just doesn't know how to properly end a song - not only repetition but a lot of ideas and riffs that could be cut out without really losing anything to the bigger picture. I feel like most Opeth songs would be improved tenfold if they were shorter and more compact, and well-rounded similar to bands like Edge of Sanity, who were able to write a 40-minute song that feels way tighter and more compact than anything Opeth has done in 12-15 minutes :lol:.
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Ace_Rimmer
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 696
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:46 pm 
 

Nile - The endless waves of fills overwhelm the rest of the band. It often sounds more like a drum audition than a coherent piece of music. I love drum fills and rolls and all that, but Nile goes to far!

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 26028
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:48 pm 
 

true_death wrote:
I've never had a problem with Opeth's genre shifting but I do think Akerfeldt is one of the worst songwriters in any well-established metal band (yes, worse than Tony Lazaro - fight me! :lol:). I honestly really like the sort of gloomy, dreary, quasi-gothic atmosphere that is palpable on albums like Blackwater Park - it's very unique and maybe even iconic, but the songs always end up feeling disingenuous and self-indulgent to me because it feels like the length is only really justified because he just doesn't know how to properly end a song - not only repetition but a lot of ideas and riffs that could be cut out without really losing anything to the bigger picture. I feel like most Opeth songs would be improved tenfold if they were shorter and more compact, and well-rounded similar to bands like Edge of Sanity, who were able to write a 40-minute song that feels way tighter and more compact than anything Opeth has done in 12-15 minutes :lol:.


Yup... I kept trying to get into them because I usually enjoy these sorts of iconoclastic, trailblazing, unique bands, but nope, never clicked for me.
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Abominatrix
Harbinger of Metal

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:15 pm
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:02 pm 
 

never thought I'd be in a position of defending Opeth on this board, but it seems to be happening a bit lately. :lol:

I think you guys are overstating it a bit. Yes, they can be a bit indulgent and yes, some of their songs are too long and too full of disparate parts/moods, but it's not a universal problem for them. I mean, they do have some pretty focused, compact songs. never mind post-2008; what about Stil Life? Always thought that was a really well done album for their style and the one where they pretty much got the formula spot on.

I haven't read most of this thread, but I feel like 90% of the time peoples' "deal breaker" is gonna be a band's vocalist. :lol:
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joppek
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:36 am
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:52 pm 
 

completely agree with bastardhead about opeth - i've heard a lot of really great stuff from them; but only in little bits that are forced together with completely unrelated, tho' in themselves also great, parts. just awesome pieces totally gone to waste with some of the most stupendously terrible songwriting i've ever come across
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PurpleDoom
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:39 pm
Posts: 328
Location: Gazing into the deep
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:30 pm 
 

Opeth's first two albums are absolutely the disjointed messes of interesting riffs and melodies that fail to come together that people here are describing them as, but the classic run from 1998-2002 doesn't suffer nearly as much from those problems, IMO. Not to say they're perfect - they totally blow the superb buildup at the beginning of Blackwater Park's title track with the following acoustic section, for example - but the songs do a much better job of taking me on a journey through the different parts in a sensible way, rather than the haphazard constructions that plagued the first two. The sequence of parts makes sense. Length for length's sake started to be more of a problem on Ghost Reveries and Watershed. Perhaps I just like the band enough to overlook some of these issues, I dunno.

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Oxenkiller
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:42 am
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:00 pm 
 

The whole Riff Salad effect. I never got into Opeth either for that exact reason, and this fault is by no means unique to them. It's just not good songwriting. I hear a lot of bands, even that stick to one style or dynamic within the same song, that suffer from this common songwriting flaw. Songs should flow together. Even when the dynamics shift, it should make sense, there should be a common theme or transition.

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flexodus
Metalhead

Joined: Sun May 10, 2009 4:16 am
Posts: 2267
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:52 pm 
 

I agree with Abominatrix, I think people are way underselling Opeth's songwriting abilities. Their riffs, melodies, acoustics and vocal lines are all really memorable, and I've never gotten a sense of a jarring lack of flow. Their atmosphere is rich and mesmerizing enough to carry the transitions. I'm combing my brain to think of a bad transition and all I can come up with is the riff 6 minutes into "The Drapery Falls", which might just be because it's not a very good riff in the first place. I mentioned that in my old review of Blackwater Park, and it's about the only part that I still agree with; I've warmed up to that album a ton, it's such an excellent piece of dreary and unusual metal. Should probably edit it at some point!

I would agree that the first two albums are the most haphazardly constructed, but they're still among my favorites due to the great riffs, more oldschool vibe and Johan's bass. I can't genuinely call them riff salad like some dime a dozen brutal death metal band when they let each riff and melody float around and back enough to fully explore them. I guess they're just a classic "more than the sum of their parts" band.

I'd recommend people to give their live albums a try if they're not feeling Opeth. Roundhouse Tapes is what really grabbed me and helped them click. Shit, I'm excited to binge on these guys now :D
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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
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Location: Lifeless shadows
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:10 am 
 

I think Opeth's Damnation is a brilliant rock album. It's a bit melodramatically sad, and while especially some of the lyrics are quite bland, mopey tripe, the playing and songwriting on that album is heartfelt and excellent. The guitar solos of Windowpane are absolutely fantastic guitar playing, with tons of emotional weight.

What rubs me the wrong way with some of Opeth's more metal work is that it picks a few tropes from death metal without enough depth to the superficial, affected sense of darkness. The guitars are quite airy and light, the drumming is agile, groovy and dynamic, and besides giving a great scaffolding to the lively but light drumming, the bass adds some unique harmonic complexity to the music. Why, then, death growls and all that? It doesn't make any sense, which might be the appeal to some. Some might think it's very progressive to combine disparate elements without any regard to how they play out, but the more I've listened to death metal, the less I've been able to stomach that kind of stylistic incongruity. So I guess that might be a deal-breaker for me.
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PluviaSomniums
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:56 pm
Posts: 91
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:23 am 
 

Their songs flow. Even if there’s a big shift it stays connected somehow - keeping in the key or time signature or whatever. Love all their albums (except Damnation and Sorceress).

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Twilightkid
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:41 pm
Posts: 83
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:48 am 
 

not metal, but Volbeat.

totally love what they do musically...can't stand the vocals....
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thrashinbatman
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 952
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:29 pm 
 

Twilightkid wrote:
not metal, but Volbeat.

totally love what they do musically...can't stand the vocals....

This, actually. I heard a recent Volbeat song on the radio a few weeks ago, and it was like an ...And Justice For All worship track musically, but with a dude yodeling over the top of it. I've always disliked his singing style, and they're at their best when he isn't singing like that. Sadly, it seems in the realm of modern rock he and the singer of Five Finger Death Punch are the trendsetters for vocals.

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true_death
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:47 pm
Posts: 1691
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:38 pm 
 

thrashinbatman wrote:
Twilightkid wrote:
not metal, but Volbeat.

totally love what they do musically...can't stand the vocals....

This, actually. I heard a recent Volbeat song on the radio a few weeks ago, and it was like an ...And Justice For All worship track musically, but with a dude yodeling over the top of it. I've always disliked his singing style, and they're at their best when he isn't singing like that. Sadly, it seems in the realm of modern rock he and the singer of Five Finger Death Punch are the trendsetters for vocals.


Yes his clean/yodeling vocals are ridiculous and horrible, but I'll be damned if he wasn't an absolutely amazing death metal vocalist back in his Dominus days, namely on the masterpiece View to the Dim. Just fucking brutal and utterly crushing - he could've levelled a mountain with that growl. Apparently he's working on a new death metal project sometime in the near future, I really hope he does vocals on that instead of bringing in guest singers or whatever :lol:.
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Oxenkiller
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:37 pm 
 

The first couple of Volbeat albums were pretty solidly metal too, albeit mainstream metal- not as commercial/millennial hard rock as now. And yeah, although I don't mind the vocals, at least on the earlier stuff, I see what you mean.

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thrashinbatman
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 952
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:02 pm 
 

Youtube: show


Yeah, for sure, it's definitely worse now than what it used to be. This song right here is pretty fuckin' good, but they've leaned into a lot of tropes they're associated with, for the worse IMO.

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Cheapsteaks
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 8:02 pm
Posts: 40
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:44 pm 
 

The vocals worked well when the songs were more rockabilly inspired and looser, but now they have shed most of that for something more along the lines of other radio rock/metal bands as far as the instrumentation goes.
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at the gaytes
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Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:07 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:29 pm 
 

Nevermore's flirtations with groove/industrial/grunge on their albums before This Godless Endeavor, instead of going the full technical progressive metal way

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true_death
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:47 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:52 pm 
 

I just got Sigh's Imaginary Sonicscape the other day and the drums make it damn near unlistenable for me. It's the exact same, boring AC/DC drum beat for the entirety of every single song on the disc, not once does the guy ever even attempt to do anything creative. As horrible as it is on it's own, it's even worse considering how badly it clashes with the overall song compositions and guitar riffs, which are very creative and unique, it just makes the entire band sound really stiff and boring.

I know this is a popular album, could someone who likes it please explain the appeal? I just don't see it.
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Cosmic_Equilibrium
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:03 pm
Posts: 279
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:35 pm 
 

Regarding Opeth: I definitely understand where people are coming from on the awkwardness of their song structures. TBH though I'm not a huge fan of the band and only their early stuff really does a lot for me, because it has all these Maiden-esque guitar lines (esp. on Orchid). To me that element seems to ameliorate the song structures on their first two albums. It seems though that that period of Opeth is considered their worst, but I personally find it way more interesting.

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Abominatrix
Harbinger of Metal

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:15 pm
Posts: 9049
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:40 pm 
 

true_death wrote:
I just got Sigh's Imaginary Sonicscape the other day and the drums make it damn near unlistenable for me. It's the exact same, boring AC/DC drum beat for the entirety of every single song on the disc, not once does the guy ever even attempt to do anything creative. As horrible as it is on it's own, it's even worse considering how badly it clashes with the overall song compositions and guitar riffs, which are very creative and unique, it just makes the entire band sound really stiff and boring.

I know this is a popular album, could someone who likes it please explain the appeal? I just don't see it.


Yeah, the sttiff drumming is just something you have to accept about them/that album in particular. It's not totally uncreative but sure, something a little looser would have been nice. I can only guess that that's the kind of drumming they wanted though. maybe in its attempt to be completely un-flashy and not distracting, it manages to push you into being distracted by its simplicity?
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GTog
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:35 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:33 pm 
 

Non-musical ambient tracks, or musical tracks containing long ambient interludes. Especially if they're overly long, which to me means about a minute. A lot of bands do this occasionally, but it's especially prevalent in black metal. Abigail Williams's Becoming was egregiously guilty, adding easily 10 minutes of electronic sound effects, crows, thunderstorms, etc onto tracks that were only average to begin with. Hate that album.

I am also not too keen on clean male vocals that are mixed too much in the front. It gives the impression that the singer is in love with his own voice, and regards the rest of the band as just his backup. Queensrÿche got like that, and Flotsam & Jetsam. Jag Panzer has always been that way.
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CannibalCorpse
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 3:55 pm
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Location: Austria
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:48 pm 
 

Angra's vocalist. Heard some amazing, fat guitar riffs in one of their mid 90s albums but damn, how distracting can one be. Stopped digging any further.
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PeteGas
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 2:34 pm
Posts: 51
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:48 pm 
 

CannibalCorpse wrote:
Angra's vocalist. Heard some amazing, fat guitar riffs in one of their mid 90s albums but damn, how distracting can one be. Stopped digging any further.



They have had 3 vocalists. They guy on the 2000s albums is a bit easier to take initiallly. Try Rebirth or Temple or Shadows. Reallly great band.

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CannibalCorpse
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 3:55 pm
Posts: 262
Location: Austria
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:04 am 
 

PeteGas wrote:

They have had 3 vocalists. They guy on the 2000s albums is a bit easier to take initiallly. Try Rebirth or Temple or Shadows. Reallly great band.


Oh, that I didn't know ^^ thanks, will do!
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:34 am 
 

Yeah I'd say Rebirth is the one to go for. Edu Falaschi is kind of like a Brazilian Bruce Dickinson.
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