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DrummingEdge133
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:48 pm
Posts: 2070
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:55 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Personnally, I find it hard to appreciate Obituary because of the vocals. I find John Tardy's vocals to be an extremely weaker version of Chuck Schuldiner's vox. There is no power to them and it ends up sounding like a weak snarls. They lack energy and tonus, plus they are mixed very high in the mix, at least on their most iconic albums, and I often skip great Obituary tracks because of the vocals.


Whoa, this is 110% wrong from my perspective. You have it exactly backwards. Chuck was fine for Death, but John Tardy's vocals back in the day were especially sick and animated. I don't know how you came to hear this in them. He often has long sustained screams and growls that sound powerful and unique. Bizarre.
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HeavenDuff
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 1155
Location: Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:18 pm 
 

DrummingEdge133 wrote:
Whoa, this is 110% wrong from my perspective. You have it exactly backwards. Chuck was fine for Death, but John Tardy's vocals back in the day were especially sick and animated. I don't know how you came to hear this in them. He often has long sustained screams and growls that sound powerful and unique. Bizarre.


He's a capable vocalist, it's more with the stylistic choices that he makes that I have issues. It's hard to explain. Someone said something about him having Scooby Doo vocals, and that's kind of how I feel about them. Sometimes he makes these slides from one note to the other and doesn't sustain and really punctuate the notes. It annoys me quite a bit.

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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 8474
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:26 pm 
 

Early Destruction it's not just the production, the fact that the drummer seems to be auditioning for Ildjarn before Ildjarn even exists doesn't make it better.
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Methuen
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 4:55 pm
Posts: 218
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:40 pm 
 

Children of Bodom - Alexi, darling, your vocals are friggin' AWFUL. Stop it, just stop it. Your early fast-power-metal stuff would sound great with a clean vocalist. Your later "we've run out of ideas-core" would sound great with that guy from Kamelot. Halo of Blood would sound pretty good with a proper shrieker.

Iron Maiden (Brave New World-onwards) - The production seems to be stuck in that "I'm spending an awful lot of money to sound as if I've not spent a lot of money" tone they've had since No Prayer for the Dying. Knock it off boys, you tour in your own 747, and we all own Seventh Son & Somewhere in Time !
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Ace_Rimmer
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 956
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:52 pm 
 

Methuen wrote:
Children of Bodom - Alexi, darling, your vocals are friggin' AWFUL. Stop it, just stop it. Your early fast-power-metal stuff would sound great with a clean vocalist. Your later "we've run out of ideas-core" would sound great with that guy from Kamelot. Halo of Blood would sound pretty good with a proper shrieker.

Iron Maiden (Brave New World-onwards) - The production seems to be stuck in that "I'm spending an awful lot of money to sound as if I've not spent a lot of money" tone they've had since No Prayer for the Dying. Knock it off boys, you tour in your own 747, and we all own Seventh Son & Somewhere in Time !


I'd like to punch Kevin Shirley in the face for what he's done to those albums.

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thrashinbatman
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 1011
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:58 pm 
 

Iron Maiden do put a ton of effort into making their records sound like little effort was put into it. The thing that's always confused me about that is that the 80's records, with the exception of the self-titled, are all pretty decently produced for 80's metal, even early albums like Killers. Somewhere in Time and Seventh Son are very well-produced records, occasionally crossing the border into what many would consider "over-produced". To then strip down the production seems weird to me, because that was never their aesthetic. To make matters even worse, they don't even do it well. Satan is a band I can think of that manages to make the "pseudo-80's" production work; their modern stuff is rough around the edges and not polished, but it works. I listen to "The Book of Souls" or "The Final Frontier" and hear a band trying awfully hard to sound bad. If they put that much effort into sounding good their albums would be a treat to listen to.

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Ace_Rimmer
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 956
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:01 pm 
 

I honestly don't think they are trying to sound rough. I think they have all lost a lot of hearing at this point and flat, lifeless, and muffled sounds fine to them.

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gasmask_colostomy
Metalhead

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 5:38 am
Posts: 532
Location: Behind the wall of fire
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:12 am 
 

I've been following the whole Obituary debate with interest and wanted to ask, wasn't it Tardy who famously made up the lyrics for several songs while he was singing them? Because you probably weren't going to hear them anyway, since the words are covered by his technique. This was for 'Cause of Death', if I'm not mistaken.

Generally, I don't find Obituary's riffing so good because it lacks definition. It's all kind of saggy, not sharp at all. However, when they nail the nasty atmosphere, it's great. I think Tardy's drawling growls fitted into that, because he never needed to have the definition and aggression of most other death metal vocalists.

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KanisMaximus
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:42 pm
Posts: 6
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:21 am 
 

I'm really picky with vocalists and, if I don't like one, it almost always ruins a band I would othereise love. Examples are Bloodbound, Victorius, Primal Fear and Running Wild (too screechy for my taste).

For me, it's a problem in power metal in general. I understand that it's often a very generic-sounding genre but I'm a sucker for fast and cheezy. I'm just incredibly picky when it comes to vocalists.

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thrashinbatman
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 1011
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:28 am 
 

Ace_Rimmer wrote:
I honestly don't think they are trying to sound rough. I think they have all lost a lot of hearing at this point and flat, lifeless, and muffled sounds fine to them.

Possibly. Glenn Tipton helped mix Redeemer of Souls, and it sure sounds like it was mixed by a dude who was mostly deaf.

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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
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Location: Lifeless shadows
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:07 am 
 

The later Maiden albums sound very good to me, especially the drum sounds. My only gripe is the excessive compression (except on A Matter of Life and Death - which, conversely, lacks punchiness). It might sound great for an album shorter than 35 minutes, but they are all very long, and the sound becomes very fatiguing. A Matter of Life And Death, on the other hand, is very hard to focus on for its entire duration, because production doesn't command much attention at all - it simply breezes through.
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FirebathDan
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 2:32 pm
Posts: 1177
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:18 am 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
The later Maiden albums sound very good to me, especially the drum sounds. My only gripe is the excessive compression (except on A Matter of Life and Death - which, conversely, lacks punchiness).


That's likely because AMOLAD was released completely un-mastered. IIRC, a big deal was made about that at that time ("the final mix sounds so good, we're not gonna bother mastering it!").

I have no qualms about Maiden under Kevin Shirley. They're probably going for 80s recording techniques/aesthetics/methodology but using modernized gear (instruments and recording gear) which is why these albums don't sound "80s".

I love Kevin Shirley as an engineer/producer. Most of, if not all of the record he works on sound real as fuck, not over processed, and very live and organic. Very much like a band playing together as opposed to audio files being cobbled together. In particular, the drum sounds he gets are always among my favorites because it sounds like actual acoustic drums as if I was there in the room, instead of overly processed sample replacement drumming. I'd go so far as to say Falling Into Infinity has the best production job of any Dream Theater album due to Shirley's involvement. The Maiden albums under Shirley are the best sounding Maiden albums IMO.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:24 am 
 

Yeah, I used to think The Final Frontier sounded kind of wonky, but these days I really appreciate how all the last few Maiden albums sound. Very organic. I'd much rather have a slightly imperfect sound over something like the new Brainstorm album where it sounds polished but dull. Or most Andy Sneap records. The Maiden ones' production gives them a distinct character. AMOLAD, with that kind of rawness, is crushing.

Quote:
I have no qualms about Maiden under Kevin Shirley. They're probably going for 80s recording techniques/aesthetics/methodology but using modernized gear (instruments and recording gear) which is why these albums don't sound "80s".


Bruce's autobiography seems to give credence to this, yeah - just them sort of doing their own thing. Personally glad they're doing that and not just pumping out an album like a conveyor belt every few years like Accept/Overkill kind of thing.
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Ace_Rimmer
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 956
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:32 pm 
 

Its amazing how different people her different things. Those later Maiden albums sound like shit to me. The brickwalling doesn't help but there is no punch, no fire.

Granted its not a Andy Sneap cookier cutter job. Great production is a largely lost art to my ears.

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Rompestromper
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:37 pm
Posts: 416
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:41 pm 
 

MikeyC wrote:
Another one for me is Dying Fetus. I love death metal, and I have no issue with their playing or their skill or anything that they do, but for any number of reasons their music has never appealed to me. I've never been able to get into it. Maybe it's the production or the song writing or the vocals or the riff work or a combination of the four, but this band hasn't been able to make any headway for me.


not meant as an insult but did not expect this from you, but maybe neither do you


for me it's opeth, in theory best band ever (early work at least) but I can't get into it, maybe it is the production or the slower pace but something always makes me fall a sleep almost, though I love his growls, bloodbath is the place to go for me then.

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xxld1k
The Sweetest Summer Child EVER!

Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:21 am
Posts: 123
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:03 pm 
 

tahu157 wrote:
”We're a rock and roll group."


I heard the drummer for Windhand say this.
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dmerritt
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 351
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:45 pm 
 

Darkspace bores me to tears. Everyone tells me it's like Paysage d'Hiver, and I adore Paysage, but just can't get into Darkspace.

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HeavenDuff
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 1155
Location: Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:33 pm 
 

DBettino wrote:
Darkspace bores me to tears. Everyone tells me it's like Paysage d'Hiver, and I adore Paysage, but just can't get into Darkspace.


This has nothing to do with the thread...

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schizoid
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2004 8:35 am
Posts: 1451
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:57 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
DBettino wrote:
Darkspace bores me to tears. Everyone tells me it's like Paysage d'Hiver, and I adore Paysage, but just can't get into Darkspace.


This has nothing to do with the thread...


Neither do a lot of the posts. "I don't like X band, but I don't know why...." :nono:
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Vadara
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 11:14 pm
Posts: 140
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:41 am 
 

I've been trying out Suffocation recently and the production just feels so..."ancient" in a way that makes everything sound less powerful than it could have been. Compared to something like Ingested, there's a distinct lack of "oomph" and feeling that the music is filling up the entire space I'm listening to. The music itself is pretty good, but being made in the 90's (I'm listening to their earlier works) is definitely noticeable about it.

I know a lot of people don't like "sterile" modern production but I prefer it over everything sounding..."muffled".

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Raindream
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:56 pm
Posts: 194
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:24 am 
 

Going back to the subject of Maiden, the dealbreaker there isn’t the bad production or vocals on their recent stuff, it’s that in 40 years they haven’t evolved beyond churning out variations of that age old bVI-bVII-i chord progression. Literally almost every one of their fucking songs is based on it and a lot of them in the same key. Often stretched 5+ minutes longer than necessary. Shit was cool in 87 boys. Now? Lol. I like bands that repeat themselves a lot - Iced Earth mostly - but even that last IE album sounds downright eclectic compared to the leftover bullshit lasagna these geezers have been serving up the last decade.

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idunnosomename
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:47 pm
Posts: 307
Location: England
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:36 am 
 

PluviaSomniums wrote:
Going back to the subject of Maiden, the dealbreaker there isn’t the bad production or vocals on their recent stuff, it’s that in 40 years they haven’t evolved beyond churning out variations of that age old bVI-bVII-i chord progression. Literally almost every one of their fucking songs is based on it and a lot of them in the same key. Often stretched 5+ minutes longer than necessary. Shit was cool in 87 boys. Now? Lol. I like bands that repeat themselves a lot - Iced Earth mostly - but even that last IE album sounds downright eclectic compared to the leftover bullshit lasagna these geezers have been serving up the last decade.


Since Brave New World Harris has been obsessed with I-VI-III-VII (i.e. nearly always E C G D). See um, outro to Wicker Man, refrain of Out of the Silent Planet, Blood Brothers, For the Greater Good of God, off the top of my head.

There's only so much you can do with power chord progressions, and I-VII-VI is always going to be the bread and butter of trad heavy metal, but it's part of the reason those clean intros Maiden are infamous for these days are so boring: they're just arrpeggiated power chords. Often those same four. And I'm not great at this sort of level of music theory, but there's something very cyclic about the progression. There's no increasing tension. It just goes round and round and round. It's just like wallpaper for Bruce to sing over.

Would make a good YouTube video, to play those chords with a band, and sing all the songs Iron Maiden use it in.

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thrashinbatman
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 1011
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:14 am 
 

Yep, that's what hurt Final Frontier a lot from me. Putting aside my gripes about the production, the whole second half of the album is just long songs with that same, long, boring clean intro in front. It completely slam dunks any sense of flow. Like, Rime of the Ancient Mariner is a killer song, sure, but Powerslave would be much worse if the second half of the album was just Rime over and over.

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HaPoStaPu
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:20 am
Posts: 151
Location: Armenia
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:41 am 
 

Can't think of a band that I'd consider great but dismiss because of one single aspect. Got to take the rough with the smooth sometimes.

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CannibalCorpse
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 3:55 pm
Posts: 316
Location: Austria
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:04 am 
 

Blaze Bayley.

I mean, I've never been a Bruce Dickinson fan, but Bayley's voice on the two infamous albums (and on his solo stuff as well) is an immediate skip. I don't care about the inconsistency of these mid-era Maiden records because I cannot handle the albums in full, because of the noises coming out of his throat.
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Roktan
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:41 pm
Posts: 13
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:08 am 
 

King Diamond: His falsetto highs just never appealed to me. If he put some distortion or rasp behind them, I might like them more.

Any death metal/brutal death metal where they do the "breeeeeee" style vocal. You are no longer producing any words at that point, regardless if there are actual lyrics.

Any black metal band that has really poor production or does low-fi deliberately. I'm not saying production has to be super pro, just make it sound good. For example I really like Manetheren, but hate their first two albums for this reason. Also fuck DarkThrone's Transilvanian Hunger, I don't care how much people praise that or call it a seminal release.

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Unorthodox
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:08 pm
Posts: 1276
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:50 am 
 

Not a deal breaker on an entire band per say, but I would consider Emperor's Anthems To The Welkin At Dusk the greatest black metal album ever created if it wasn't for that absolutely cheesy and nerdy-to-the-core sounding midi horn at the end of Alsvartr. The whole album does such a good job painting an incredible soundscape, but they gotta fuck everything up at the beginning with what sounds like the beginning of some 90's RPG game. Sad!
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idunnosomename
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:47 pm
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Location: England
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:03 am 
 

Ooh, I thought of one.

Rush.

I can take Geddy Lee's voice.

But not the Ayn Rand. And The Trees. It grates me so much. You're more likely to get Mike Pence listening to Deicide, or the Pope listening to Exhorder, than me stomach those lyrics.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 26557
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:33 am 
 

idunnosomename wrote:
Ooh, I thought of one.

Rush.

I can take Geddy Lee's voice.

But not the Ayn Rand. And The Trees. It grates me so much. You're more likely to get Mike Pence listening to Deicide, or the Pope listening to Exhorder, than me stomach those lyrics.


They quit doing that later. I don't even think Moving Pictures/Permanent Waves do any of that. Clockwork Angels is also a must-listen.
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BlackheartSauron
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:15 pm
Posts: 143
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:23 pm 
 

Roktan wrote:
King Diamond: His falsetto highs just never appealed to me.

This

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idunnosomename
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:47 pm
Posts: 307
Location: England
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:00 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:

They quit doing that later. I don't even think Moving Pictures/Permanent Waves do any of that. Clockwork Angels is also a must-listen.


I think actually I do like a lot of the later stuff, like Grace Under Pressure, more than the early heavy metal stuff and the high concept prog. Anyway, I guess the deal it breaks is for me being a big fan of them. Still kinda like the music.

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Ace_Rimmer
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 956
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:45 pm 
 

The themes of the individual against the masses is still here and there an later work but when Peart started writing more personal lyrics that fell to the wayside for the most part. Me I love all his lyrics, especially the 2112 prog era stuff. Rush just rules.

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MawBTS
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:16 am
Posts: 801
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:44 pm 
 

"Edgy" rape/murder/pedophilia samples at the start of songs.

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Bingewolf
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 pm
Posts: 350
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:02 pm 
 

I hate "happy" sounding riffs (fast, highs). This encompasses a lot of power metal, so there aren't a lot of power metal bands I like... which also leads me to "fantasy" lyrics (dragons, kings, battles, etc). It's all just too cheesy for me.

Political/racist lyrics and themes.

Good cop/bad cop vocals. I like punk, hardcore and metal - I hate blending of the two styles in 90% of instances.

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thrashinbatman
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 1011
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:03 am 
 

Wait, so you hate both political and fantasy lyrics? With the exception of murder, I'm not really sure what else there is to sing about in metal.

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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 7942
Location: Lifeless shadows
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:40 am 
 

MawBTS wrote:
"Edgy" rape/murder/pedophilia samples at the start of songs.

Bingewolf wrote:
I hate "happy" sounding riffs (fast, highs). This encompasses a lot of power metal, so there aren't a lot of power metal bands I like... which also leads me to "fantasy" lyrics (dragons, kings, battles, etc). It's all just too cheesy for me.

Political/racist lyrics and themes.

Good cop/bad cop vocals. I like punk, hardcore and metal - I hate blending of the two styles in 90% of instances.


Yeah, that's great, but in what otherwise great bands are these things dealbreakers for you?
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Bands that sound amazing and that you'd love if it wasn't for that one detail that makes it more difficult for you to enjoy or completely ruins the experience for you.

Instead you're making sweeping generalisations of entire genres here.
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ambientsorrow
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:25 am
Posts: 205
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:56 am 
 

CannibalCorpse wrote:
Blaze Bayley.

I mean, I've never been a Bruce Dickinson fan, but Bayley's voice on the two infamous albums (and on his solo stuff as well) is an immediate skip. I don't care about the inconsistency of these mid-era Maiden records because I cannot handle the albums in full, because of the noises coming out of his throat.


I just read through his wikipedia page, and I kinda feel bad for him. It kinda strikes me as someone who is trying to recapture what he had with Iron Maiden with the amount of band member's and financial troubles he's been through in his solo career since then.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 26557
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:26 am 
 

I think those three sci-fi concept albums are the best things he's ever done. Always enjoyed his voice, too.
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Zelkiiro
Pounding the world with a fish of steel

Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:30 pm
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Location: Pennsylvania
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:57 am 
 

Most harsh vocals are just an instant dealbreaker for me. You got your exceptions in Vektor, Saturnus, Bolt Thrower, and whatnot, but for the most part, those vocalists just piss me off and leave me wishing they got David DiSanto or Mark Jansen instead.
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Ace_Rimmer
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 956
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:02 am 
 

thrashinbatman wrote:
Wait, so you hate both political and fantasy lyrics? With the exception of murder, I'm not really sure what else there is to sing about in metal.



there is always the fresh topic of the devil.

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