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yungstirjoey666
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:47 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:40 am 
 

All three bands are usually labeled as the trio of pioneering heavy metal music, but if I had to choose which band did most of the job, it won't be that easy because they all had some significance, so I'll just narrow it down step-by-step.

First of all, and probably the most recognized pioneer, is Black Sabbath. Like literally, you can't go wrong with them. They had the heavy guitar sound, as well as the dark lyrics and aesthetics that are prevalent in many metal bands (you've seen their album covers, right). However, much of their work during the 70s still had that rock n roll bluesy sound, albeit in a darker tone. If we're talking about specific music style, they mostly merely influenced doom metal, and that subgenre is not as popular as many other metal subgenres. Even Iommi said that they weren't a metal band at the time. I'd say they were more relevant as a metal band when RJD came along. Regardless, they are still important because of the aesthetic and atmosphere, and at a time like the early 70s it was probably revolutionary, so I still consider their works that time metal.

As for Deep Purple, well, I haven't heard much of them, and to me they are pretty bluesy in their music, but that one particular song, Highway Star, stood out to me a lot. Like, that Bach-styled guitar solo that you'd find in new-wave British bands such as Iron Maiden, as well as power metal bands such as Blind Guardian and Helloween. That song, in my opinion, is the first metal song. Not like Born to be Wild or Helter Skelter or any of those late 60s hard rock & roll songs, but real heavy metal. I still believe that proto-Sabbath has more metal songs, but when Purple does metal, they do a better job at it (structure-wise, at least).

And Led Zeppelin, well they aren't really recognized much in heavy metal; I always considered them as a hard rock band. Regardless, the 70s and 80s hard rock music had played an important role in developing metal, so either way, they deserve a mention. Also, they do introduce some common lyrical themes in metal music, particularly mythology and fantasy. So while they do not have much of an influence as Sabbath or Purple, Zeppelin is still a worthy mention.

So there goes my analysis. There may be some inaccuracies here, so please correct me. Anyways if I have to choose, I'd go with Deep Purple. In my opinion, they influenced new-wave the most, which in turn influenced thrash metal, which in turn influenced death metal, and don't forget speed and power metal. Black Sabbath is a very close choice of mine, especially with their aesthetics and heavy guitar, but I'd say they've influenced more with doom metal. Keep in mind that I'm only referring to early works; the 80s was when heavy metal music was very established. I would mention Judas Priest here, but they barely did much with metal when they first began.

So what are your thoughts? Which band pioneered metal the most?

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Oxenkiller
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:44 am 
 

My quick and easy answer would be Black Sabbath, just for the heaviness of the riffs and the playing. The other two bands contributed some of the themes and the melodies that metal incorporated, but musically it would have to be Sabbath.

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Xymosys
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:53 am 
 

Black Sabbath, because of the crawling darkness and themes of the occult in the background of their music...
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Necrodictator
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:46 am 
 

I actually suspect Led Zeppelin and/or Deep Purple had bigger influence on early NWOBHM, while Black Sabbath had bigger influence on doom stuff and what came after 1981.

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at the gaytes
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:25 am 
 

Huh... I think the objective answer is Black Sabbath

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:28 am 
 

They all contributed in ways that were invaluable. None of them were metal because metal wasn't really a defined term then, but they all inched closer and closer to what it would be when Priest and others finally took it by storm. Rush can be included too, if only for their 1970s epic numbers that have influenced many melodic bands in the years since. Metal's development wasn't a straight line but rather a series of evolutions by way of bands playing faster and harder - because that's what every new generation did, upping the ante of fastness and heaviness. It wasn't just like one band clicked it into place immediately.
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RattEurope
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Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:59 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:59 pm 
 

My impulse is going to say Deep Purple. Def Leppard, Diamond Head, and Iron Maiden, the three biggest reasons why heavy metal made it into the 80s, only existed because of UFO. UFO seems primarily influenced by Deep Purple if we had to pick one of the three. Led Zeppelin seems more convincing then Black Sabbath for similar reasons, and because they led to Van Halen. I am struggling to think of any upper tier bands in the early 80s that were looking toward Paranoid-era Black Sabbath as their primary influence. In the 21st century Black Sabbath's influence is definitely spread wider than the other two, but it is worth wondering whether metal would have gotten so far without the impact of UFO/Van Halen inspired bands in the early 80s.
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jimbies
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:07 pm 
 

They were/are all valuable, but I've gotta go with Black Sabbath. The imagery, the lyrics, the music.
Led Zeppelin had sex appeal, which I guess carried into glam/hair metal WAY later, but yeah, Sabbath was just about the vibe and the music.

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Element_man
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:03 pm 
 

This is an interesting question. I want to say Black Sabbath because they really defined heavy guitar tone and dark imagery in the early days and they also leaned the most heavily into "Metal" as a genre when it began to blossom. In addition, they continued to develop and influence bands deeper into their career when they brought Dio into the mix and went for the more sweeping, epic stylings.

This of course shouldn't discount the impact of Zep and Purple.
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SD Plissken
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:03 pm 
 

My personal opinion is that Black Sabbath were the first band to be properly categorized as heavy metal with their first album. The album Deep Purple in Rock was also an early example of heavy metal; that band was on fire.

Led Zeppelin was more than heavy metal. Even the band members have said that in interviews. They have heavy metal songs such as "Achilles Last Stand", "Kashmir", and "Immigrant Song", but they also have songs such as "D'yer Maker", "Hot Dog", and "Tangerine".

Both Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple can't be pigeonholed as heavy metal, in my opinion, because they were/are more "progressive" (for lack of a better term).

Black Sabbath, on the other hand, have largely stuck to a heavier style, regardless of songs such as "Changes", etc.

In my opinion, Black Sabbath was a heavy metal band. Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple were not; however, they did plant certain seeds of heavy metal along the way, but they should not be considered fathers of the genre.
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BURlAL
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:22 pm 
 

Proto? Sabbath isnt proto.

As for the question I would say Zepplin had much more of an influence on what the average person considers metal....especially the singing (cringe) and epicness.

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TrooperEd
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:30 pm 
 

Deep Purple 33%
Led Zeppelin 33%
Black Sabbath 34%

Heres another acceptable answer.

Deep Purple 33%
Led Zeppelin 33%
Black Sabbath 33%
Budgie 1%
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PeteGas
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:33 am 
 

Hold on. Deep Purple influenced new wave? And new wave influenced thrash metal? I hear tons of The Buggles, Talking Heads & Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Dark in Kill Em All. Sure.

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yungstirjoey666
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:27 pm 
 

PeteGas wrote:
Hold on. Deep Purple influenced new wave? And new wave influenced thrash metal? I hear tons of The Buggles, Talking Heads & Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Dark in Kill Em All. Sure.

I mean NWOBHM

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PeteGas
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Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 2:34 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:05 am 
 

yungstirjoey666 wrote:
PeteGas wrote:
Hold on. Deep Purple influenced new wave? And new wave influenced thrash metal? I hear tons of The Buggles, Talking Heads & Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Dark in Kill Em All. Sure.

I mean NWOBHM

Haha ok. Makes more sense.

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HeavenDuff
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Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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Location: Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:02 am 
 

SD Plissken wrote:
Led Zeppelin was more than heavy metal. Even the band members have said that in interviews. They have heavy metal songs such as "Achilles Last Stand", "Kashmir", and "Immigrant Song", but they also have songs such as "D'yer Maker", "Hot Dog", and "Tangerine".


"More than heavy metal." Lol. This sounds pretentious on so many levels. Like that actually means anything. They were definitely not more than heavy metal, they were just something else. They were a progressive rock band. They did influence heavy metal, but they were definitely not more than heavy metal.

SD Plissken wrote:
Black Sabbath, on the other hand, have largely stuck to a heavier style, regardless of songs such as "Changes", etc.


This sentence combined with the other things you said in your post seem to take the name heavy metal too litteraly. What defines heavy metal isn't just heavyness, it's a sound that goes way beyond just how much distortion and heavyness there is in the music. There is metal music that's actually far less heavy than the first four Black Sabbath albums and they aren't less metal because of that.

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:03 am 
 

There is absolutely nothing "proto" about Black Sabbath.
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Zelkiiro
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:29 am 
 

All three are great bands, and all gave something to the musical landscape. That being said, Black Sabbath put the genre on the board once and for all, and for that it's the most important of the three (in terms of heavy metal).
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Osmiumthemetal
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:23 pm 
 

All three influenced metal in their own way, along with Budgie. If Budgie didn't exist, Priest wouldn't have sounded like how they do and metal would have been forever different. Hendrix should be mentioned as well, as Motorhead was mostly Hendrix influenced.

Also Sabbath is obviously heavy metal lol.

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Pitiless Wanderer
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:33 pm 
 

Sabbath easily

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Face_your_fear_79
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:43 am 
 

Yes right Hendrix is included I think.

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HeadbangerballZ
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Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:49 am
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:27 am 
 

SD Plissken wrote:
My personal opinion is that Black Sabbath were the first band to be properly categorized as heavy metal with their first album. The album Deep Purple in Rock was also an early example of heavy metal; that band was on fire.

Led Zeppelin was more than heavy metal. Even the band members have said that in interviews. They have heavy metal songs such as "Achilles Last Stand", "Kashmir", and "Immigrant Song", but they also have songs such as "D'yer Maker", "Hot Dog", and "Tangerine".

Both Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple can't be pigeonholed as heavy metal, in my opinion, because they were/are more "progressive" (for lack of a better term).

Black Sabbath, on the other hand, have largely stuck to a heavier style, regardless of songs such as "Changes", etc.

In my opinion, Black Sabbath was a heavy metal band. Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple were not; however, they did plant certain seeds of heavy metal along the way, but they should not be considered fathers of the genre.


Deep purple NOT metal?! I could understand not considering LZ technically metal, but how the hell could you not consider them not with songs like " Highway star" and " Fireball"?! Ritchie and Tony really came up with the tremelo picking for metal guitar. Trust me, I am a musician. So I know!

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HeadbangerballZ
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:30 am 
 

Black Sabbath, Deep purple, Led Zeppelin in that order.
For what genres specifically? Sabbath and Purple actually influenced thrash with "Highway star" and Children of the grave" were actually the 1st thrash songs.

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gasmask_colostomy
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:58 am 
 

I'd like to correct the assumption that Black Sabbath influenced doom metal so specifically. Of course it's undeniable that their earliest albums sound closest to doom metal and generally have the distinct aura of the genre. However, I can see people making the typical "slow = doom" assumption. Sabbath played slow partly because they were trying to make music that sounded like a horror film and partly because they didn't have the right mix of elements to play fast (imagine Ozzy singing on 'Highway Star'). Slowness is a part of most subgenres of metal. What Sabbath did do there is introduce a mood to metal that has since been used in most black, death, and doom metal, not to mention certain proponents of more melodic forms of metal. In a sense, stuff like using the tritone instead of rock scales in 'Black Sabbath' began a metal way of thinking in terms of writing riffs for atmospheric effect.

As for the actual most influential, it's a tough call. Arguably most of the bands that were influenced by those groups would have taken influence from all three and combined some of their qualities.

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:05 am 
 

Black Sabbath influenced doom metal specifically because the first doom metal bands were essentially Black Sabbath clones that only de-emphasized the upbeat elements of Black Sabbath's sound a bit. If the genre starts with stuff like Pentagram, Witchfinder General and Saint Vitus, yeah, pretty clear what the specific influence is.

Only thing I disagree with is that Sabbath themselves played doom metal. Could be argued I guess that they're as doom metal as Venom are black metal or Possessed are death metal, but I feel really awkward about it.
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HaPoStaPu
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:02 am 
 

As a child one of my uncles gave me some records, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin and Whitesnake, I think. Whilst I enjoyed them all, only Black Sabbath's disturbed me a little and thus my vote goes to Sabbath. It just had a darker, more metal vibe, less 70s cock rock. The cover was creepy as well.

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Mellifleur
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:07 am 
 

droneriot wrote:
Black Sabbath influenced doom metal specifically because the first doom metal bands were essentially Black Sabbath clones that only de-emphasized the upbeat elements of Black Sabbath's sound a bit. If the genre starts with stuff like Pentagram, Witchfinder General and Saint Vitus, yeah, pretty clear what the specific influence is.

Only thing I disagree with is that Sabbath themselves played doom metal. Could be argued I guess that they're as doom metal as Venom are black metal or Possessed are death metal, but I feel really awkward about it.

Black Sabbath received an honorary PHD in Doom Metal for the foundational research they did outside the field. And now Ozzy insists on everyone calling him Dr.
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RichardDeBenthall
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:20 pm 
 

I think they all contributed in different ways.

Led Zeppelin's first two records came out in 1969 and basically blew away all other competition in terms of "heaviness". I remember reading an interview with Ozzy and he was recalling listening to Dazed and Confused on the radio and he was like "Fucking hell, this is fucking heavy isnt it?". Equally Ritchie Blackmore said he attended a Led Zep gig in London around the time they first kicked off and he was so impressed with Robert Plants wailing and screaming that he basically immediately fired Rod Evans and went looking for a singer who could do the same thing, cue Ian Gillan. Zep also contributed a great deal to the image and excess of Heavy Metal as well as pursuing the more grandiose and epic themes in their songs i.e. Immigrant Song, Achilles Last Stand etc. You can hear the impact of that quite clearly in modern metal today.

Deep Purple were one of the first bands that really clearly merged classical influences with modern rock and blues. As they got Gillian and Glover in the band you can hear that they sort of start to shed those early psychedelic influences and write bitter, harder songs with a greater exploration of Lord and Blackmore's ability on their instruments. Cue stuff like Child In Time, Speed King, Highway Star etc. This all came after Zep though, you're talking like 71 and 72. While Zep were incredibly talented musicians, I think you could argue that Blackmore and Lord's virtuosity was probably more influential on a lot of later metal musicians i.e. Yngwe, Michael Schenker etc.

Sabbath for me brought two incredibly important things to the genre. The first was just a total step up in terms of heaviness. Sure Dazed and Confused is heavy but its basically as heavy as Led Zep got. Sabbath started that heavy and just got heavier and heavier until you hit Master of Reality on-wards where its in fucking C standard with riffs that still sound heavy by today's standards. The most important thing they did in my mind was thematic though. They brought the some real fucking darkness to music.

Can you imagine hearing Black Sabbath's debut title track in 1970? "Big black shape with eyes of fire, telling people their desire". It's still fucking creepy and just a world away from pretty much anything else going on in music at the time. Ironically I think Sabbath actually got lighter and lighter in theme following their first few records, until you get all the mental jolly riffs on Never Say Die etc. But their first 4/5 records are dark and have some genuinely evil sounding riffs on them. I can't think of a band before them that really brought out anything close to that sort of vibe.

Just my two pennies anyway!

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ZenoMarx
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:38 pm 
 

Not to split hairs, but when I think of proto-metal, I think of some of those early psych bands like The 13th Floor Elevators, Iron Butterfly, and guitarists like Randy Holden even before Blue Cheer. They were playing with heavy riffs and different distortions before any of these three. Because of this, and because Page was part of the psych situation, I wouldn't be uncomfortable saying he was possibly influenced by the heavier psych bands. Having said that, I don't think of Led Zeppelin as metal at all. They're a true blues band. While Sabbath was also rooted in blues, they had all kinds of other influences that created their dark and heavy sound. LZ didn't have that kind of heavy depth. DP was more "metal" than LZ, but even in saying that, I don't think of DP as a metal band either. They were a heavy psych unit with a great leaning towards improvisation that was so big in that time.

I love all three, but metal becoming what it is could have reasonably evolved without LZ or DP. BS is mandatory for its existence, though.

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akb88
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:01 pm 
 

No one band can claim to have invented metal. I'll say though that out of those three listed that while Sabbath had the riffs Purple defintely had the attitude.

Budgie, Atomic Rooster, MC5, Blue Cheer....all bands worthy of discussing too when it comes to early metal.

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emax
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:05 pm 
 

I think Black Sabbath in theory takes it by a strong margin since at the end of they day, they really were the closest thing there ever was to an inventor of metal music. That is, if it's possible to consider any one band an inventor of the genre. Iommi more or less created the guitar tone and sound that distinguished metal from every other offshoot of rock music. Every lyrical theme covered in thrash, power, NWOBHM, black, death, groove, stoner, doom, folk, new American, metalcore and deathcore was in some form or another brought up by Black Sabbath.

What maybe makes it more interesting is considering how much of Sabbath's need to come up with the heaviest possible sound they could, while remaining melodic and making sure not to conflate heaviness with simply being louder, came from LZ and DP rocking their world. LZ in particular was the one band that all 4 Sabbath members, with their highly diverse backgrounds, agreed on when it came to major influences. Then again, if it's about going further to the roots of there the music comes from, it goes from LZ and DP back to The Beatles, The Stones, The Who and the Kinks, Elvis, Jazz and Swing music and so on. So it may be more practical to focus on direct influences, which would have to be Sabbath.

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emax
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:13 pm 
 

akb88 wrote:
No one band can claim to have invented metal. I'll say though that out of those three listed that while Sabbath had the riffs Purple defintely had the attitude.

Budgie, Atomic Rooster, MC5, Blue Cheer....all bands worthy of discussing too when it comes to early metal.

As are Vanilla Fudge, Cream, and we *really* can't forget Steppenwolf. Born to Be Wild is most likely one of the top 10 most important pre metal songs in terms of laying the groundwork for it. Hell, it was the first time the term heavy metal was used in rock music ["heavy metal thunder"]. It's a rather long list when talking about bands that had a hand i shaping metal. When we talk about inventors of metal, it should be a given that it's a relative term.

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idunnosomename
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:54 pm 
 

Thing is Black Sabbath diversified very quickly and went beyond the genre they pioneered. The last four Ozzy albums go off into Jazz and all sorts. When you get to Technical Ecstasy, Led Zeppelin are far closer with Presence to emerging heavy metal like Sad Wings and Rising as well as Budgie et al than Sabbath were at that time with their studio albums. So it's not as clear cut as people are implying

Face_your_fear_79 wrote:
Yes right Hendrix is included I think.
The Jimi Hendrix Experience is a lot more psychedelic than hard rock when you listen to their albums. I mean still, massive influence and talent, but still.

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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:32 pm 
 

HeadbangerballZ wrote:
Trust me, I am a musician. So I know!


Please, don't ever say that again.

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HeadbangerballZ
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:49 am
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:07 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
HeadbangerballZ wrote:
Trust me, I am a musician. So I know!


Please, don't ever say that again.


Shut up, you talentless, uneducated clown. It's not my fault you and these inbreeds don't know a thing about music! Now you can back off and go to hell! :evil: :fuck:

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HviteGuden
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:45 am 
 

Of course, Black Sabbath. Their self-titled song already sounded like full-fledged traditional doom metal from the 80s.

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Element_man
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Location: Vancouver, Canada
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:16 pm 
 

HeadbangerballZ wrote:
HeavenDuff wrote:
HeadbangerballZ wrote:
Trust me, I am a musician. So I know!


Please, don't ever say that again.


Shut up, you talentless, uneducated clown. It's not my fault you and these inbreeds don't know a thing about music! Now you can back off and go to hell! :evil: :fuck:

:wanker:
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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:36 pm 
 

Element_man wrote:
:wanker:


I agree wholeheartedly with this statement.

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raumr
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 9:25 pm 
 

I also get the impression that Black Sabbath is the most relevant in music genres today. Even bands playing fast black metal with cite Black Sabbath as a major influence, even youngsters these days respect them for their major contribution to the genre.

Also on a personal note, Black Sabbath sounds fresh even today. 70s Sabbath doesn't sound like "old man music", it sounds considerably less dated than glam rock, punk music and all other fads that came and went and is tied to a time in history. Their self-titled song, NIB, Lord of this World, Wheels of Confusion, Snowblind etc etc etc. the list goes on.

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Face_your_fear_79
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:04 am 
 

Black Sabbath
Iron man
War pigs
Children Of the Grave
Into The Void
Megalomania
Symptom of The Universe
Paranoid
N.I.B.
Sweat Leaf
Johnny Blade
Snowblind
Sabbath Bloody Sabbath
A national Acrobat
Hole In The Sky
Supernaught
After Forever
Wicked World
Hand Of Doom
And Hell probably more that I am not even remembering or thinking about.


To me those songs scream heavy metal and are definitive songs. Led Zeppelin had these songs.

Dazed And Confused
Communication Breakdown
Achilles Last Stand
How Many More Times
Immigrant Song

Deep Purple these songs
Speed King
Child In Time
Highway Star
Pictures Of Home
Smoke On The Water
Fireball
Burn

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