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PapaEmeritusXI
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:27 pm
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:54 pm 
 

In my black metal journey, i haven't encountered any good NSBM/neo-nazi bands until now. Peste Noire might not be National Socialist but it's clearly fascist and neo-nazi. I encountered Peste Noire recently through YouTube recommendations; i gave their album "l'ordure à l'état pur" a listen and i am not going to lie, it's a fantastic album. It's weird, the vocals are unique and the rebellious atmosphere it creates is just next-level. The french folk elements are perfect. It's literally my type of thing. The album art and lyrics are hilarious. Nevertheless, as i was searching about the band in detail, it was quite clear this band was neo-nazi aligned. I don't know how to feel about this. I detest nazis and fascists and i would never endorse them. I mean I enjoy this band for the music , not for the message. Nevertheless, by listening to them i am giving them more exposure which is the last thing i want to give to a neo-nazi.

How do you guys deal with this? I'm sure you've encountered this yourself. Do you fully stop listening to them after finding out they are neo-nazi or do you not care? Would love to hear your thoughts and opinions.
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pressingtoplead13
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:05 pm
Posts: 410
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:26 pm 
 

Its an interesting debate I guess. It always seems funny to me that I don't feel guilty listening to Devourment or some over the top misogynistic death metal but yet I quite enjoy several songs by a band that is overtly racist and always feel guilty when i listen. I've often wondered because I don't condone what either band does but its drastically easier for me to write one off over the other. With that said at the end of the day music is art and I will enjoy art regardless of its message as long as I enjoy it. I'm with a black woman with two black kids and am obviously strongly against racism, with that said I continually listen to those racist songs simply because they are great songs. No more no less. I do however draw the line at merch. I will not wear merch of a band that strongly preaches racism, regardless of how much i like the music. Enjoying music is one thing, promoting it is another.

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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 8690
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:36 pm 
 

I have Fanisk mp3s, haven't got a clue what their lyrics are but there's a swastika on one of their album covers. I listen to GG Allin and I dunno if he has any messages that aren't questionable. Arditi have some fascist-like themes, Allerseelen have some identitarian-like themes and I like Bobby Beausoleil, dunno how much of his 60s questionability remains in his later stuff because I really rarely listen to lyrics at all.

Also listen to a bunch of gorey death metal and ever since the Dayton, Ohio shooting it appears the misogyny in gorey death metal or goregrind may not be as purely fictional as it's always made out to be in the "NSBM vs goregrind" censorship debates, that creep gave BasqueStorm & the like a much stronger point in those debates in hindsight.
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Osore
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:55 am
Posts: 171
Location: Serbia
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:12 pm 
 

Yes, and I don't care because I don't support them financially.
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Opus
Veteran

Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2002 11:06 am
Posts: 2886
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:18 pm 
 

Yes, I listen to Veni Domine and Leviticus. And I'm not even ashamed about it!
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at the gaytes
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:07 pm
Posts: 358
Location: Bangladesh
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:22 pm 
 

Yes, I love GG Allin and Anal Cunt. I don't really care if bands dislike minority x or y, as a Christian, half of the lyrics of the bands I love are calling for my gruesome death and extermination of my religion

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blackmantram
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:51 pm
Posts: 514
Location: Colombia
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:00 pm 
 

PapaEmeritusXI wrote:
In my black metal journey, i haven't encountered any good NSBM/neo-nazi bands until now.


You're either new to the "journey" or you missed stuff like nokturnal mortum, fanisk, kataxu, dub buk or temnozor.

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InnesI
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1284
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:17 pm 
 

PapaEmeritusXI wrote:
Do you listen to bands with questionable messages?


Most of the time I don't put to much weight on ideological standpoints but more if the music and lyrics are well crafted (and of course lyrics can be well crafted even if one does not like the message). That said I listen to very few political bands. In the NSBM genre its mostly Nokturnal Mortum and Sigrblot (if they count). For far left wing stuff it's mostly Swedish punk rock. But obviously there's loads of blasphemous metal which wishes death to all Christians and the like. When it comes to other kinds of music I actually enjoy some of ISIS nasheeds and some of them are directly hostile to unbelievers like me so that's perhaps the best example of music I enjoy that actually promotes violence against myself.

I always tend to dismiss misogynous lyrical content though. It's one of few lyrical subjects I can't stand at all. So if a band is clearly misogynous I tend to not even give them a chance. I used to think the same of the bands that actively pushed for their fans to commit suicide but I have to admit I quite like Shining. They are just so damn good at what they do.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 26641
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:38 pm 
 

There's too much good stuff to spend time listening to some kind of Nazi shit. It would have to be really, really outstanding for me to overlook that and even then I don't think I would. Not saying art has to be all PC or whatever but if you're just using it as a platform for hate speech then I don't see that as a worthwhile pursuit.
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doomicus
Metalhead

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 5:58 am
Posts: 430
Location: Kenfuckedy
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:55 pm 
 

Short answer: yes.

Everyone should listen to what they're comfortable listening to. Don't think there is really a right or a wrong here, and the cut off point (if there is one) attributed to different ideologies and philosophies will vary from person to person.
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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
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Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:00 pm 
 

Osore wrote:
Yes, and I don't care because I don't support them financially.

I play black metal, I make about as much money with music in a year as I make with my job in a week, maybe two. If anyone's worried about financing the rise of the Fourth Reich by buying a black metal demo I really don't think there's that much to worry about.
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raumr
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:11 pm
Posts: 1248
Location: Norway
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:39 pm 
 

I can understand why Peste Noire gives people so much headache on this. It's a fairly unique band, and the man behind it is very eccentric and weird, blending in different genres music and politics and humour, all while being offensive as hell.

Anyway, I definitely don't consider it a personal failing to enjoy art that in someway conflicts with my personal views. Music is not intellectual to me, it's emotional and spiritual, and sometimes it's exciting and even revelatory to approach art that has sharp edges and makes me uncomfortable. Most "questionable" bands I listen to don't even come with a clearly stated message. It's more that they play with or appropriate imagery and ideas from racism, totalitarianism, bigotry etc.

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Amerigo
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:30 pm
Posts: 284
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:41 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
I play black metal, I make about as much money with music in a year as I make with my job in a week, maybe two. If anyone's worried about financing the rise of the Fourth Reich by buying a black metal demo I really don't think there's that much to worry about.

Do you vote? Chances are your vote won't matter in any given election, so why vote?

It's not a question of pragmatic outcomes, it's the principle of giving money to neo-Nazis. Unless you have a ton of money, your purchases (or lack thereof) won't ever make any real-world difference, but you may feel complicit if you make them.
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Razakel
Nekroprince

Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:36 pm
Posts: 5586
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:45 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
Osore wrote:
Yes, and I don't care because I don't support them financially.

I play black metal, I make about as much money with music in a year as I make with my job in a week, maybe two. If anyone's worried about financing the rise of the Fourth Reich by buying a black metal demo I really don't think there's that much to worry about.


I think it's obvious the poster was talking about not wanting to give racists their money as a principle rather than out of a legitimate fear that by doing so the bands in question would be able to make a comfortable living and/or more easily spread their racist messages. Makes total sense to me, and it's basically my own view as well. I don't really see the harm in streaming NSBM online if you enjoy the music, but personally I don't like to give my money to bands/anyone whose message I find reprehensible.

EDIT: typed this at the same time Amerigo submitted their post saying pretty much exactly what I was saying lol


Last edited by Razakel on Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Gravetemplar
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 314
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:48 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
There's too much good stuff to spend time listening to some kind of Nazi shit. It would have to be really, really outstanding for me to overlook that and even then I don't think I would. Not saying art has to be all PC or whatever but if you're just using it as a platform for hate speech then I don't see that as a worthwhile pursuit.

Pretty much this. Besides, most NSBM is just bad. Just look at the bands playing the top nazi fests, always the same old awful bands.

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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 8690
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:48 pm 
 

I don't do principle, I exclusively do pragmatic. On principle. Only real world things concern me.
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exsiccation
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:49 pm
Posts: 306
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:14 pm 
 

Probably, but if I do, it's out of ignorance. If I actually learn that a band is supporting things like racism or national socialism, I tend to stop listening. I don't want to patronize terrible people.

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Oxenkiller
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:42 am
Posts: 2371
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:58 pm 
 

I'm okay with members who have controversial beliefs as long as they don't use their music as a vehicle to express their beliefs. Heck, Dave Mustaine spouts off controversial shit all the time and I still like Megadeth. But Burzum is about as far as I'll take that idea. There are no overtly racist lyrics in Burzum, despite Vargs openly stated beliefs outside of the music. However bands like, say, Tank Genocide (who pretty much suck anyway), Argoshlent, or any number of bands with "88" or "Aryan" in their name- are bands I want nothing to do with. And yeah, on the few times I have sampled their stuff out of mild curiousity, it is almost invariably just as bad, or worse, than Tank Genocide.

There are a number of grindcore and brutal slam/death metal bands with "Rape the diseased slut bitch" type of lyrics which I consider kinda lame and childish- it's not so much that I'm "offended" as much as I think it's juvenile and lame bullshit. I dont need to list any of 'em- there's way too many bands like this out there. Music by involuntarily celibate dudes who cant get laid, so they put out their (typically really crappy) "Brutal" music as some kind of emotional catharsis agains their sexual frustration.

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cultofkraken
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:18 am
Posts: 2020
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:36 pm 
 

I listen to some music made by shitty people the same way I ingest and internalize art in other mediums by flawed or terrible people. I separate the art from the artist. I’m less likely to buy music that’s inherently dogmatic for any reason because I like art that takes me away from reality.
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Temple Of Blood
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:16 am
Posts: 2439
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:48 pm 
 

Opus wrote:
Yes, I listen to Veni Domine and Leviticus. And I'm not even ashamed about it!


Those are great bands.
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AndromedaVessel
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:10 am
Posts: 16
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:06 pm 
 

Honestly what the band is themed around is the last thing I look into when I listen to their music. I just don't listen much to NSBM because apart from Nokturnal Mortum, Kataxu and Dub Buk, I try not to delve into the genre in fear that I'll just be getting yet another raw black metal band.

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Big_Grand
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:59 pm
Posts: 617
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:02 pm 
 

I love KPN and a lot of bands in his circle like BMH and Autarcie. Lyrically he's usually just singing about France. With split he's been doing a lot od dumb things to out-shock everyone ellse on Militant Zone probably because it makes him feel part of something. You can tell by the documentary about KPN a few years back he's an awkward dude.

Other than that I really don't have a problem with a band until they are blatantly hating on other races or ethnicities. I don't have a problem with nsbm bands that sing about their own pride, only bands who hate on others. I'll listen to M8L8TH, Temnozoer or even 88 if I want something to listen to while I cook but I'll never listen to a band like Thor's Hammer or Aryan Terrorism.
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Mellifleur
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:01 pm
Posts: 42
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:36 pm 
 

It's almost an iron law of nature that the more blatant the right wing politics is in a piece of art, the worse the quality of the art is. Burzum and Tank Genocide are both made by dudes who believe Jews are shapeshifting lizards and white people are divine starchildren but Varg keeps those thoughts out of the music and is thus able to make something good, whereas including those sentiments in Tank Genocide's music resulted in hot diarrhea. This holds true in all cases. Deffo. :P Can anyone really argue that hearing Varggoth scream about 14 words in Weltanschauung didn't make it less enjoyable?

Some people complain about the fact that once you grow up you can't listen to NSBM without contextualizing what you are listening to the way you could as a child, but that's just part of growing up. Once you hit a certain age and level of worldly experience it's just stupid and immature to complain about not being able to take a work of art out of its context.
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Oxenkiller
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:42 am
Posts: 2371
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:39 pm 
 

There is different degrees of racist messages with bands. I get the sense that bands like Temnozer, Graveland, and some of the others are more about "Pride in our history, our homeland, and our ancestors" then they are about "Beat up Jews/kill minorities." They are right wing nationalist to be sure, but not quite outright hate-core bullshit. Which makes them somewhat more tolerable.

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Razakel
Nekroprince

Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:36 pm
Posts: 5586
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:32 pm 
 

Big_Grand wrote:
I'll listen to M8L8TH, Temnozoer or even 88 if I want something to listen to while I cook but I'll never listen to a band like Thor's Hammer or Aryan Terrorism.


Let me take this opportunity to remind everyone that Thorr's Hammer (double r) is not only not racisit, but is a top-tier death/doom band with one of the most brutal female vocalists anyone's ever heard. Fuck off Thor's Hammer, hail Thorr's Hammer!

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Byrain
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:45 pm
Posts: 1276
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:54 am 
 

I have been turned off from listening to an album before when I realized they had a very cheesy Christian pro-life anti-abortion song, I don't really care what musicians believe in, but when its more about the ideology than the music, the quality of the music only suffers.

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Vadara
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 11:14 pm
Posts: 151
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:11 am 
 

I have absolutely never found a single right-wing band that doesn't suck. So there's that. Badness is just inherent to the concept.

Leftist music tends to be good, though. More so than politically neutral music, honestly.

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Required Fields
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:32 pm
Posts: 474
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:28 am 
 

Byrain wrote:
I have been turned off from listening to an album before when I realized they had a very cheesy Christian pro-life anti-abortion song, I don't really care what musicians believe in, but when its more about the ideology than the music, the quality of the music only suffers.


What album?
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Byrain
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:45 pm
Posts: 1276
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:54 am 
 

Required Fields wrote:
Byrain wrote:
I have been turned off from listening to an album before when I realized they had a very cheesy Christian pro-life anti-abortion song, I don't really care what musicians believe in, but when its more about the ideology than the music, the quality of the music only suffers.


What album?


It was by Ashen Mortality, I forget which one.

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BasqueStorm
The Wettest Blanket

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:21 pm
Posts: 4571
Location: Turks and Caicos Islands
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:27 am 
 

PapaEmeritusXI wrote:
Do you listen to bands with questionable messages?

Sure, as far as they don't have a political agenda to try to affiliate me.

P.S: Wow, some pretty wild generalizations and chiclés in those last comments. :scratch:
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ironman8008
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:18 pm
Posts: 63
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:45 am 
 

I strongly separate music and politics/lyrics/messages. Each nation has both geniuses and dickheads (obviously some have more of the first and some of the latter).
I am of Russian, ukrainian, jewish, belorus and polish ancestry born in Ussr (now Ukraine), living in Israel for past 20 years and have no problem with listening to aforementioned bands. On the same weight I strictly disagree with banning Richard Wagner's sheet music on Israeli media and classical music festivals. Music is music and it is people's heritage.

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HviteGuden
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:24 am
Posts: 35
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:58 am 
 

Ideology is obviously a secondary thing. Furthermore, it can be interpreted in different ways. It can affect the perception of material in some ways, but still the music itself is the main thing. If I like it, I won't reject it because of some secondary stuff.

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Gravetemplar
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 314
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:19 am 
 

I can understand not caring about the personal opinions of the artists when the music isn't political but exactly how do you deal with a song about murdering Jews? I mean, how can you claim to separate the artist from the music when the lyrics are horrid and dead serious?

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HaPoStaPu
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:20 am
Posts: 161
Location: Armenia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:39 am 
 

As an old school, proto-edgelord I will always be a little bit attracted to things that are forbidden. Doesn't really matter too much if it's a priest, conservative politician or a liberal that gets outraged. I'd assume that for some, obviously not all, of these 4Chan/alt-right kids Hail Hitler is basically just the new Hail Satan, a way to troll.

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DeadKid
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:51 am
Posts: 56
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:33 am 
 

I don't mind listening to a few neo-Nazi bands and have a handful of individual songs on mp3 as curiosities. However, it's highly unlikely I'll bother to give any more a chance. Last year I deleted 3 albums I had along with some other individual songs. They were more rock/punk bands and nothing great really. I just decided the curiosity of listening to those ones didn't outweigh the discomfort of having them on disk any more. Whereas a decade ago the subject seemed so outlandish and feeble, and neo-Nazism here meant simpletons playing dress-up with uniforms at home, so I just laughed it off.

A 2004 album from my sister's CD collection uses the word Untermench in the lyrics and has a Wolfsangel symbol in the booklet. It doesn't bother me at all as I'd say it's more for shock value, but the imagery would've gotten the band a bit much heat if they used it today.

I do listen to plenty of bands who've used extremely misogynistic/homophobic/racist humour at some point, some of which I count as favourites. I'll defend them as a product of their time but be careful of who I share the particular songs with. It's rare for bands to have continued releasing that sort of material up to now though.

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ironman8008
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:18 pm
Posts: 63
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:44 am 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
I can understand not caring about the personal opinions of the artists when the music isn't political but exactly how do you deal with a song about murdering Jews? I mean, how can you claim to separate the artist from the music when the lyrics are horrid and dead serious?

Well, I don't support them financially. I listen to them on the internet or mp3.

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Ace_Rimmer
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 999
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:55 am 
 

I tend to avoid bands with pro Marxist or Nazi lyrics and imagery. Songs about the horrors of those ideologies are fine though.

Artists that are shitbags? Well I don't pay a ton of attention to that.

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Kerrick
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:02 pm
Posts: 1181
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:33 am 
 

Byrain wrote:
It was by Ashen Mortality, I forget which one.


It's the title track from the album Sleepless Remorse. :) Not a bad album but the band My Silent Wake which came from AM is much better IMO.

I'm pretty careful about the lyrics I listen to. I just have a very difficult time enjoying a band much at all if their lyrics/stance is counter to any of my core values/beliefs, regardless of the musical quality. As a Christian, that ends up saving me a lot of money on metal music hahaha...

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thrashinbatman
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 1025
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:49 am 
 

pressingtoplead13 wrote:
Its an interesting debate I guess. It always seems funny to me that I don't feel guilty listening to Devourment or some over the top misogynistic death metal but yet I quite enjoy several songs by a band that is overtly racist and always feel guilty when i listen. I've often wondered because I don't condone what either band does but its drastically easier for me to write one off over the other. With that said at the end of the day music is art and I will enjoy art regardless of its message as long as I enjoy it. I'm with a black woman with two black kids and am obviously strongly against racism, with that said I continually listen to those racist songs simply because they are great songs. No more no less. I do however draw the line at merch. I will not wear merch of a band that strongly preaches racism, regardless of how much i like the music. Enjoying music is one thing, promoting it is another.



Most of the misogynist lyrics in death metal come across as theatrical and not serious to me, more akin to a horror movie than to a serious declaration of belief. It's not really different from lyrics about generalized violence or how cool Satan is; they exist for the atmosphere and not much else. With racism, it's different, because it's hard to make racism theatrical without including some other element to make that obvious. Especially given that almost every band that writes racist lyrics end up being actually racist. This makes even good bands hard for me to get into, a really obvious example being Arghoslent, a band with awesome music that just could not stop themselves from injecting racism into their lyrics.

That's not to say that there aren't some death metal bands whose misogynist lyrics feel like they leave that realm and enter into legitimate hatred, though. The one example I can think of is Waking the Cadaver; it was really hard to read their lyrics and not come away feeling that the vocalist was actually working out some issues with women on their first record. That's when it stops being fun and and starts making me feel dirty for listening.

Where that line is may be different for some people. For me it's a bit arbitrary, but whenever I feel as though I'm complicit in whatever ideology or actions the band have taken, it's hard to listen to anymore. This even includes bands with members who have done problematic things that are totally unrelated to the music, but that's a different conversation. I can listen to songs that espouse beliefs I generally disagree with but aren't views that I find despicable, for example, Havok's vague conspiracy theory hysteria on Conformicide, or ones who I generally agree with but come with unfortunate undertones, like Exodus' Children of a Worthless God or Honor Killings which have messages that I can't really disagree with but include, IMO, an uncomfortable side of legitimate Islamophobia.

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Unity
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:42 pm
Posts: 1545
Location: Portugal
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:12 am 
 

The only far-right metal band I really like is Burzum, and even though Varg is an idiot I have no problems listening to it. And to me it's easy to ignore NSBM bands, because to my ears almost all of them suck anyway. On the other hand, I love Martial Industrial and enjoy bands like Arditi and Legionarii and don't give a fuck about their beliefs.
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