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cultofkraken
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Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:18 am
Posts: 3013
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:22 pm 
 

Auch wrote:
Bingewolf wrote:
cultofkraken wrote:
Guilt by association is a real tenuous thing and so is holding people responsible for art or things they said 13 years ago. I certainly don’t carry the same opinions I did back then. Also I hope you aren’t a Gehenna fan because W.T.C>Shaarimoth>Gehenna. Ergo all are nazis.


Again, it's not 13 years ago. Spellgoth is on the new Peste Noire album that came out 2 months ago. Shatraug released a new Finnentum album 2 weeks ago.

And no, not a Gehenna fan here...


Yes, it was 13 years ago and I wouldn’t want to be judged for what I said 13 years - when I was 16. But 13 years ago, Shatraug was 28 and releasing a pretty clearly NSBM album. So I think it’s fair to judge him based on that until he says he regrets releasing that, no longer subscribed to those beliefs, and has actively dissociated himself from the NSBM scene.


I was 25 then, and I can say I had some pretty questionable views mostly because I dated someone who had some pretty questionable views. Obviously I snapped out of it, but you’re still by and large an idiot in your twenties, and some of us take a little longer to mature than others.
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Wilytank
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:22 pm 
 

Anyone who thinks nationalism immediately equals national socialism seriously needs a history lesson.
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~Guest 285196
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:11 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:22 pm 
 

narsilianshard wrote:
Short of Spellgoth quitting Peste Noire immediately and saying "sorry I didn't know because I don't speak French and don't know what blackface is", nothing they say is going to change anything.

Coming out to apologize for their sins and beg for forgiveness doesn't strike me as something black metal artists would do. Doing so in this instance would be ceding the moral high ground to strangers online who probably don't even listen to them anyway, and shouldn't be holding that ground.

If they want to distance themselves to their NS ties in a public statement, that's one thing, and Varggoth from Nokturnal Mortum did that a few years ago, but if they do so because Metalsucks has stirred up the angry comments of people with political agendas (I'm not accusing anyone on this forum), then they come off looking pathetic. It sucks if they lose venues or touring opportunities, and it sucks for fans who just want to see the band play, but it's the price they pay for sticking to their guns, I guess.

Gravetemplar wrote:
[...]at least two of the band members are Nazis.

Well, glad we got that cleared up!

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~Guest 389043
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:48 pm 
 

Horna are great. Could give two fucks about their fantasy NSBM nonsense side projects.

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~Guest 329938
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:25 am
Posts: 223
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:13 pm 
 

Bingewolf wrote:
cultofkraken wrote:
Guilt by association is a real tenuous thing and so is holding people responsible for art or things they said 13 years ago. I certainly don’t carry the same opinions I did back then. Also I hope you aren’t a Gehenna fan because W.T.C>Shaarimoth>Gehenna. Ergo all are nazis.


Again, it's not 13 years ago. Spellgoth is on the new Peste Noire album that came out 2 months ago. Shatraug released a new Finnentum album 2 weeks ago.

And no, not a Gehenna fan here...


And Portal are on a split with Blood of Kingu. You've got some cheek to keep carrying on about linking members of Horna to other bands with questionable beliefs when you yourself are obviously a big Portal fan who done a split with NaZi SyMpAtHiZeRs.

Maybe Spellgoth doesn't give two fucks about what the beliefs of the rest of Peste Noire are. Maybe he just enjoy's their music? I mean, how long was Craig Pillard in Disma for? Apparently none of the other members gave a shit that he was in Sturmführer until shit hit the fan.

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Astral Blood
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Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:17 pm
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Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:47 am 
 

Bingewolf wrote:
cultofkraken wrote:
The new Finnentum album and previous ones have no proven NS lyrics or themes.


Finnentum lyrical themes according to Metal Archives: Nationalism.


I'm sorry, but am I actually reading this correctly? It is absolute insanity if you think that nationalism and national socialism are the same thing.

The mind truly boggles...

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Abominatrix
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:46 am 
 

The likelihood of a real black metal band making some kind of categorical comforting statement to set all our minds at rest is practically nil.
Whether you think it's dumb or self-sabotaging ... it is what it is.

Expecting black metal bands to do this is kind of unrealistic.

But expecting black metal tours to go on uninterrupted and without some sort of controversy is also, perhaps, unrealistic.
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~Guest 361478
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:29 am 
 

Genuine question to the concerned - what are you expecting / wanting to happen here ? We're all fans of the music, if not the people, so what's the objective ?

Some kind of public scourging by the band members ?

Some kind of group rejection of anyone that's ever said something / worked with someone / published something politically objectionable ? I mean, that's Darkthrone and Mayhem stuffed, along with the nerds like Famine and Bobby Darken.

Maybe a bit of a localised purge - anyone with politics / can be linked to politics that might like Hugo Boss a bit too much ?

Edit - another option I suppose - an outright ban on them ? (in terms of the archive / shows / facebook / bandcamp / etc.) ?

I get the modern-day angst about this stuff, and how that angst is absolutely stoked up by the media (it's easy traffic / sales, pointing to the village weirdo and calling them a RACISTNAZIFASCIST) - I'm just interested to see what people here, as fans of the music, want to happen ?

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BasqueStorm
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:58 am 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
It's not guilt by association when you play in neo nazi bands.

You haven't been in front of a neo nazi band IN YOUR LIFE. Just like the rest of us. :scratch:

FFS! :nono:

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CrippledLucifer
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:59 am 
 

So my main takeaway from this thread is that the Horna singer was flashing his necrocock at the audience back in 2009, which makes this band painfully second rate even when it comes to flashing dick and balls to the public as pioneered by Taake.
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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:49 am 
 

BasqueStorm wrote:
Gravetemplar wrote:
It's not guilt by association when you play in neo nazi bands.

You haven't been in front of a neo nazi band IN YOUR LIFE. Just like the rest of us. :scratch:

FFS! :nono:

What does you message mean? Why did you reply like that? Are you ok? :???: :???: :???: :???: :???: :???: :???: :???: :???: :???:

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RichardDeBenthall
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:56 am 
 

I agree that the majority of the objections to the article are pretty much based on a negative opinion of MS. I'm not overly fond of MS either but the article seems fair enough.

I think a bigger question here is to why we've seen such a huge rise in the number of NS affiliated BM bands in the last 10 years. There were a few famous examples during the 90's but it seems that NSBM bands are two a penny now.

I suppose it's probably something to do with shock factor, a new way to be edgy. The whole Satan thing is basically just pop culture now when it was once a truly shocking thing to avow. Black Metal paints itself in opposition from the general pop cultural zeitgeist and NS tendencies/right wing sympathies seem to be the 'enemy' of the day in general culture.

If we accept that the majority of BM musicians weren't actually Satanists/Devil worshippers than how much do we accept that the members of NSBM bands are truly avowing race war and all that crap?

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BasqueStorm
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:05 am 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
What does you message mean? Why did you reply like that? Are you ok? :???: :???: :???: :???: :???: :???: :???: :???: :???: :???:

This:
https://forum.metal-archives.com/viewtopic.php?p=2838844#p2838844

RichardDeBenthall wrote:
If we accept that the majority of BM musicians weren't actually Satanists/Devil worshippers than how much do we accept that the members of NSBM bands are truly avowing race war and all that crap?

:roll:

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Kladusha
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:27 am 
 

Offering my 2 cents...it is pretty disheartening to watch this witch-hunt unfold every time a band with less than-crystal-clear beliefs is about to your the States.
First it was Taake, now Horna...even Uada were scrutinized for sharing a bill with I don't remember who. There is (was?) a Kim Kelly's column promoting on Vice bands showing unquestionable left wing leanings to counteract supposedly pervasive Nazi infiltrations in the scene. But are they really present? Here in Europe, without spending too much words commenting Asgardei, I don't see Nazi bands performing nor a surge of fascism-associated acts. At least not as MS and Kelly would like us to believe. Plus, in Finland there are countless artists holding questionable beliefs, from Mikko Aspa to, as people pointed out, Impaled Nazarene and the often maligned Satanic Warmaster (who seems anything but a Nazi sympathiser from the interviews I have read) and it's nothing really new or particularly shocking.
Come on, Bizarre Uproar has an album called "Rape Africa". Connections don't prove anything besides a.will to collaborate or take part in a musical project. Maybe the guy is in peste noire because the pay is satisfying.
Who really knows?
I am not saying I advocate for letting Nazism infiltrate black metal, just it seems pretty dumb to go after small-time bands who at best move couple thousands copies and don't offend anyone in their audience...

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Lord_Jotun
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:57 am 
 

This article raises quite a few relevant points concerning the ongoing discussion, including one particular elephant in the room I rarely, if ever, see mentioned in such cases: actual politically charged bands are not exactly shy or subtle about their beliefs; on the contrary, they use their music and lyrics as propaganda, and make damn sure anyone approaching their output knows where they stand, with zero fucks given about commercial repercussions, venue bans and online ostracism.
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Bingewolf
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:41 am 
 

ambientsorrow wrote:
Bingewolf wrote:
cultofkraken wrote:
Guilt by association is a real tenuous thing and so is holding people responsible for art or things they said 13 years ago. I certainly don’t carry the same opinions I did back then. Also I hope you aren’t a Gehenna fan because W.T.C>Shaarimoth>Gehenna. Ergo all are nazis.


Again, it's not 13 years ago. Spellgoth is on the new Peste Noire album that came out 2 months ago. Shatraug released a new Finnentum album 2 weeks ago.

And no, not a Gehenna fan here...


And Portal are on a split with Blood of Kingu. You've got some cheek to keep carrying on about linking members of Horna to other bands with questionable beliefs when you yourself are obviously a big Portal fan who done a split with NaZi SyMpAtHiZeRs.

Maybe Spellgoth doesn't give two fucks about what the beliefs of the rest of Peste Noire are. Maybe he just enjoy's their music? I mean, how long was Craig Pillard in Disma for? Apparently none of the other members gave a shit that he was in Sturmführer until shit hit the fan.


You’ve got some cheek to spend 3 posts trying to shout “Blood of Kingu” at me but, you know, here we are... :lol:

Since I already addressed your big bad Blood of Kingu post previously, how about staying on topic?

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Thexhumed
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:22 am 
 

To be honest I didn't read most of the posts, so if this question was raised before (and then discussed) my apologies, but, how come does pseudo-nazi acts get so much negative attention (kinda deserved) yet blatantly communist professing bands fly under the radar so easily? Weird how depending on which side of the WWII conflict you were dictates how ideologies are seen as politically correct/incorrect almost 80 years later.
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~Guest 329938
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Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:25 am
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:36 am 
 

Bingewolf wrote:
ambientsorrow wrote:
And Portal are on a split with Blood of Kingu. You've got some cheek to keep carrying on about linking members of Horna to other bands with questionable beliefs when you yourself are obviously a big Portal fan who done a split with NaZi SyMpAtHiZeRs.

Maybe Spellgoth doesn't give two fucks about what the beliefs of the rest of Peste Noire are. Maybe he just enjoy's their music? I mean, how long was Craig Pillard in Disma for? Apparently none of the other members gave a shit that he was in Sturmführer until shit hit the fan.


You’ve got some cheek to spend 3 posts trying to shout “Blood of Kingu” at me but, you know, here we are... :lol:

Since I already addressed your big bad Blood of Kingu post previously, how about staying on topic?


Well my post is relevent since it's using the same guilty by association logic you're applying to Spellgoth. I guess enjoy being a Nazi sypmathizer yourself liking Portal, though! :roll:

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Wilytank
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:42 am 
 

We’re seeing the biggest fallacy being asserted by the article promoting this witch-hunt: how much does the well get poisoned?
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CrippledLucifer
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:59 am 
 

Thexhumed wrote:
To be honest I didn't read most of the posts, so if this question was raised before (and then discussed) my apologies, but, how come does pseudo-nazi acts get so much negative attention (kinda deserved) yet blatantly communist professing bands fly under the radar so easily? Weird how depending on which side of the WWII conflict you were dictates how ideologies are seen as politically correct/incorrect almost 80 years later.

Yeah I'm sure this particular topic has literally never been raised before by anyone.
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ObservationSlave
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:34 am 
 

I'm not sure why I decided to read every post in this thread; that was painful. Not sure how Derigin had the patience to continue to reiterate the same point over and over again, despite a blind stubbornness from the other side.

Nationalism and Nazism are not identical.
Playing in a band with members who have shitty views does not mean you have shitty views.

Can we not all agree on those two points?

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Sick6Six
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:37 am 
 

Is Metalsucks a metal site or an anti-metal site? I've never seen them say a good thing about anything. I just glanced at their frontpage and there's like 7 stories about Slipknot... makes sense now. At least they are giving me an excuse to keep being lazy about going to shows... I was probably going to actually go to this one, but now it's definitely going to be canceled and or a shit-show.
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narsilianshard
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:18 pm 
 

ObservationSlave wrote:
Nationalism and Nazism are not identical.
Playing in a band with members who have shitty views does not mean you have shitty views.

Can we not all agree on those two points?

Nope, we cannot. Playing in an overtly racist band means you are perfectly okay enabling and supporting racism. Even if you tell people you don't personally hold those views, you're actively helping racism thrive.
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Abominatrix
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:32 pm 
 

You guys are talking about two different things. "Playing in a band with members who have shitty views" is not the same as "overtly racist band", and I think that's what observation was getting at exactly. And this is why this shit is never going to end; nobody understands anybody, it's like something out of an Anton Chekhov story.
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rexxz
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:36 pm 
 

Maybe not, but "Playing in a band with members who have shitty views" means at the very least you don't care enough to distance yourself professionally and artistically from those who have shitty views. And I guess it depends entirely on what those "shitty views" are before you can determine how bad you want to label them. Purely for example, you wouldn't catch me playing with closeted Nazis even if the band had absolutely nothing to do with that kind of shit.
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Abominatrix
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:48 pm 
 

That's fair, and I can definitely see a point where enough arguments and listening to stupid rhetoric would make me want to quit a band, too, but if theyr'e "closeted nazis", it's probably something that has developed slowly over time and might not even be something that a band ever talks about.

I know I mentioned this the last time this came up (whatever band it was, I've completely forgotten now), but there are people I've known for years and I never really branded them politically until they started posting weird memes on facebook.

Anyway, I think it's a matter of degrees . There are lots of reasons guys play together in bands and, like it or not (I feel a bit caught in the middle of this myself), black metal bands tend not to have a social conscience.
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rexxz
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:50 pm 
 

Yes I was definitely referring *only* to situations where those shitty views are either publicly known or are at least definitely known to all involved band members. If you're completely unaware of them, then no I don't think any kind of tertiary blame or guilt should be directed to anyone involved.
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lost_wanderer
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:53 pm 
 

I don't have any sympathy for that band. They are public figures, not in some totally obscure band, and in times like we live today where far right extremists and totalitarian regimes are on the rise around the world, sometime you got to make a clear statement especially if you have a shady past and it come bites you in the ass. Spellgoth should definitely step out either of Peste Noire or Horna. Shatraug should clearly say if he believes in any ways the ideology expressed in Blutschrei. Sometimes, you gotta choose your camp. If they can't do that, they deserve all the crap they are getting.
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Sick6Six
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:14 pm 
 

I barely pay attention to band members and who's in what band these days. Seems like Shatraug has new bands every time I check and I've only really listened to a few of them. I just noticed Spellgoth was in Peste Noire from reading these comments so I looked it up: Keyboards 2018 - present... LOL he basically decided to play a throwaway instrument in a shitty band just last year, pretty stupid decision honestly. I don't really know much about PN besides that the few times I tried to listen to them I thought it was complete garbage. Their band page just says "Nationalism" but I guess it's more than that? pretty fucking funny band photo too.
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HaPoStaPu
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:49 pm 
 

Whilst I don't really care much what musicians think or do (I still listen to Michael Jackson's 2 good albums, no matter how depraved he probably was. At least he's dead though, which helps), surely if you do stuff and it has consequences, that's just how it is. Survival of the fittest and all. I'd think a NSBM band would approve. It's pretty normal that the enemy would try to shut you down.

Even Adolf Hitler and his band (National Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei, bit of a mouthful) had to bring their own protection to play beer halls. Many a beer stein made contact with a head and some were shot by the government in the street. And yet they played big stadium gigs only a few years later.

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Trashy_Rambo
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:55 pm 
 

I don't care about Metalsucks much, and Horna doesn't seem to be a fashy band, but if one of their members is in a bunch of blatantly NS bands, he deserves to be de-platformed. Sucks for the other dudes, but maybe don't associate with neo-nazis, yeah?
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Goatfangs
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:58 pm 
 

Bingewolf wrote:
:lol: Nothing quite takes the "grim" away than seeing a trve kvlt penis during a show. That photo of Hoest from Taake's junk hanging out comes to mind.

You are right though... With more people paying attention to those ties now, it does begin to feel like a minefield because of so many bands being affiliated. I know that it was less taboo in the 90s because only so many people were playing/releasing black metal that fans let it slide a little more. But when all four current/past members of Alcest were also in Peste Noire (and 3/4 of Amesoeurs), it seems a little too close for my comfort. And obviously, Alcest and Amesoeurs are not NS bands themselves - but the members obviously don't have any issue with playing on an album called "Aryan Supremacy". And that's not even getting into Neige's Old Silver Key bandmates....

When Alcest is so much more high profile, you'd think that would've come up by now.


Neige also stated that he was against racism and far-right ideologies in an interview from 2011. That playing in Peste Noire was a teenage mistake.
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Acidgobblin
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:08 pm 
 

I could name multiple BM groups that could be targeted by MetalSucks, and they are all basically leaders of the scene. Going for small, underground and relatively minor league bands like Horna seems misguided, but I also don't believe we should allow NS-elements to freely perform what should be apolitical music without informing people of who this band really is. People deserve to know.

I have no feelings for the band, they seem like run-of-the-mill second tier black metal, nor any opinion on the website, but the instinct in many to shout "political correctness gone wrong" every time something like this happens just seems like an apologist stance. In most instances, when you dig into it, there is a genuine issue. Wheher it is a major problem or not is where the discussion usually ends up. In this case, the link between the band and an awful ideology is present- now people get to decide whether they continue supporting this.

People should have the freedom to believe what they want and to freely express those views, but people should also be informed as to the nature of people they are planning to give money to.
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Wilytank
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:49 pm 
 

Acidgobblin wrote:
I have no feelings for the band, they seem like run-of-the-mill second tier black metal

And you would be incorrect. They're one of the most important bands in the Finnish scene. If you're familiar with Sargeist (another Shatraug project), Behexen (the two core members were also in Sargeist for a good while), Baptism, or Satanic Warmaster (Werwolf was Horna's original singer), they're all projects that have direct connections to Horna with others being obviously influenced by them.

Also, did anybody here happen to go to Google and look up "Shatraug interview" or "Spellgoth interview"? Or am I the first one to do this this far into this debacle?

Here's a video one for Spellgoth in 2017.



Important notes:
-He has been a longtime fan of Peste Noire, but does not consider them a Nazi band even saying that that conclusion couldn't even be drawn from their lyrics. Seems to like them just because they're weird.
-Horna has gotten antifa flak in the past (Shatraug mentions this in his interviews), he does not consider Horna a Nazi band.
-Says all these accusations are full of shit.

All signs saying he's not a Nazi.
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Auch
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:23 pm 
 

All signs that Horna isn't a Nazi band, but have Spellgoth and Shatraug said that they PERSONALLY don't hold white supremacist/white nationalist/racist/fascist? Spellgoth might not consider Peste Noire a Nazi band, but Famine certainly says they're far right and they align with a lot of white power/white nationalist labels, etc. And this interview was in 2017 - before Spellgoth was involved in the most recent KPN album, which uses explicitly racist imagery to advertise itself and the band as a whole.

Has Shatraug disavowed the Blutschei album?

Considering that it's often bad press to identify as a Nazi/racist/far right, that it's possible to have fascist and racist views without identifying as a Nazi, and that they haven't addressed their personal actions (and in Spellgoth's case at least have taken questionable actions since this interview), there certainly seem like there are reason to not believe them.

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twistedknife
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:01 pm
Posts: 175
PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:33 pm 
 

The far-left and the far-right are very similar, and these days the far-left are more fascist than the far-right because they have a bigger voice.

Take a look at horseshoe theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory

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Auch
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:40 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:45 pm 
 

Take a look at the last sentence of literally the first paragraph of that exact Wikipedia page.

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twistedknife
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:01 pm
Posts: 175
PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:48 pm 
 

Auch wrote:
Take a look at the last sentence of literally the first paragraph of that exact Wikipedia page.


I know it's not totally accurate and skips a lot of differences, but the far-left and far-right both seem very totalitarian.

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Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5998
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:01 pm 
 

Let's try to keep this on topic, instead of turning it into yet another "but but the far-left is just as bad as the far-right" thread.
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Wilytank
Not a Flying Toy

Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:21 am
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:53 pm 
 

Famine might be a complete fucking goon, but if interviews with him say anything it's that he makes music for himself without caring about what anybody else thinks. In fact, he seems to rather associate himself with ugliness dirtiness that seem antithetical to that whole white purity ideology.

It's hard to find anything about Blutschrei aside from an old interview when that band was still active with a brief talk on Finnish patriotism. The only other pertinant part of an interview I found was also clipped by, of all people, Neckbeard Deathcamp's Twitter account.

Spoiler: show
Image


Auch wrote:
Considering that it's often bad press to identify as a Nazi/racist/far right, that it's possible to have fascist and racist views without identifying as a Nazi, and that they haven't addressed their personal actions (and in Spellgoth's case at least have taken questionable actions since this interview), there certainly seem like there are reason to not believe them.

This is an extremely dangerous precedent. Is this what we're supposed to do now? If we're going to start going to assume everyone's a fucking nazi by default unless they say otherwise, then the scene just got a megaton shittier. Especially when we're not supposed to believe them even if they say so.

I absolutely do not want the genre to be plagued by these witch-hunts. Attitudes like this are going to make us see Nazis in our soup. If you can't see how articles like Metalsucks' blows stuff like this completely out of proportion, you're either blind or have some clear confirmation bias.
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