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Xymosys
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:19 am
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Location: Croatia
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 3:29 pm 
 

Well, there are some rumors regarding this issue, but I can see it coming. Book of Souls was 5 years ago and the band seems quite busy...

More info:
https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/iron- ... dio-album/

Thoughts? Expectations?
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 3:59 pm 
 

In Bruce's book, he says after his cancer was done with, he could sing higher than he had in the last few years. Could be interesting for these new tracks.
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Xymosys
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 4:03 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
In Bruce's book, he says after his cancer was done with, he could sing higher than he had in the last few years. Could be interesting for these new tracks.


Fingers crossed for that one! I just wish they return to the "5-minute songs" formula, without venturing so much into progressiveness waters :D
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Bingewolf
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Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 4:19 pm 
 

It certainly seems like new Maiden is on the way! Like all of their albums, I will certainly listen and hope for the best - but I haven't been a big fan of their recent output. I'm happy to just see the live shows and hear the hits at this point. Unlike Priest, for example, who I loved their most recent record.

So it now looks like we'll get new Maiden and new AC/DC in 2020 - crazy to think about the older bands still putting out records and selling out stadiums all this time later!

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Twisted_Psychology
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Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 8:22 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 4:36 pm 
 

I hope Bruce finds some time to get out that pending solo album out there as well.
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idunnosomename
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Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:47 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 4:51 pm 
 

Xymosys wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
In Bruce's book, he says after his cancer was done with, he could sing higher than he had in the last few years. Could be interesting for these new tracks.


Fingers crossed for that one! I just wish they return to the "5-minute songs" formula, without venturing so much into progressiveness waters :D

This has improved a bit recently. And I think there is less demand for "omg epic" these days as extreme metsl has regained wider appeal.

Book of Souls is good but still too long. Dickinson's Empire of the Clouds earns every second though, great song.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:57 pm 
 

I think the writing has gotten much tighter and catchier on the long songs with every album. They obviously like doing things this way and don't care about writing three-minute rockers as much as they used to, so I'm glad they've gotten so good at this in my view. Maybe it could use some editing - but I still dig all their last few albums. I wouldn't want them to be too much shorter.
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idunnosomename
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:14 pm 
 

it's better than them forcing a pub-rock comeback like No Prayer, if we're honest. I was dreading the last double album, but I think it's their easily their best and least drawn-out since Brave New World (which could also do with some trimming, but the strength of the writing means it wins out)

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GuntherTheUndying
Crimson King, Eater of Worlds

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:25 am 
 

Wow. Five years ago the Book of Souls was released, and I still haven't heard it. I've grown soft, comrades. That said, I think I would be more intrigued by a semi-return to the ethereal, atmospheric style of Seventh Son more than anything. Good thing Bruce is singing better than ever, too.
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Ace_Rimmer
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:27 pm 
 

I'm sure I'll buy it, then listen to it a few times while lamenting there are some decent bits mixed in the with seemingly endless repetition that passes for progressive music to Harris. But this is modern Maiden and I'd expect most of the tracks to be 7+ minutes long with a lot of pointless meandering parts that a good producer would push to have cut. And it will sound shitty too. Maiden hasn't put out a great sounding record since the 80's.

Still my favorite band though. :lol:

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yungstirjoey666
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Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:47 am
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:29 pm 
 

I'm excited about the new album. Also, I can't wait for the upcoming tour with Priest.

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TrooperEd
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:31 pm 
 

yungstirjoey666 wrote:
I'm excited about the new album. Also, I can't wait for the upcoming tour with Priest.


I ain't gonna believe that until I see it. I'm not convinced that Priest (or specifically Glenn) would humble themselves to being Maiden's opening band, but then again they're doing that for Ozzy, so.....

GuntherTheUndying wrote:
Wow. Five years ago the Book of Souls was released, and I still haven't heard it. I've grown soft, comrades. That said, I think I would be more intrigued by a semi-return to the ethereal, atmospheric style of Seventh Son more than anything. Good thing Bruce is singing better than ever, too.


I haven't either. Or at least I didn't bother listening to any of the songs with acoustic/soft intros. I scanned every song and if it had that intro I skipped it and wrote it off as garbage. I wish Kevin would have the balls to tell Steve to cut that shit out like he told Rush to cut out the keyboards while making Counterparts.
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Ace_Rimmer
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:41 pm 
 

Acoustic/soft intros is 75% off the songs since BNW. Epic!

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Temple Of Blood
Old Man Yells at Cloud

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:44 pm 
 

I expect:

songs that are way too long
pompous yet superficial takes on all the lyrical subjects
Bruce singing in 1 and a half octaves
a lame album cover
choruses that repeat the title 4 times, with slight melodic variations
95% of the IM audience to not care if any of these songs are played live
an E, C, D chord progression
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Temple Of Blood
Old Man Yells at Cloud

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:45 pm 
 

TrooperEd wrote:
yungstirjoey666 wrote:
I'm excited about the new album. Also, I can't wait for the upcoming tour with Priest.


I ain't gonna believe that until I see it. I'm not convinced that Priest (or specifically Glenn) would humble themselves to being Maiden's opening band, but then again they're doing that for Ozzy, so.....


Yep. Unless a ton of money is thrown at them I don't think this tour will happen in North America.
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GTog
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:53 pm 
 

idunnosomename wrote:
Xymosys wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
In Bruce's book, he says after his cancer was done with, he could sing higher than he had in the last few years. Could be interesting for these new tracks.


Fingers crossed for that one! I just wish they return to the "5-minute songs" formula, without venturing so much into progressiveness waters :D

This has improved a bit recently. And I think there is less demand for "omg epic" these days as extreme metsl has regained wider appeal.

Book of Souls is good but still too long. Dickinson's Empire of the Clouds earns every second though, great song.


Iron Maiden's song length has been trending upwards since the beginning, with few exceptions. Only Seventh Son of a Seventh Son, Virtual XI, and The Final Frontier are shorter than albums before them.

This century, Brave New World and Dance of Death have averaged about 6 minutes per song, then A Matter of Life and Death and The Final Frontier are more like 7. Book of Souls tops 8, but that's mainly because of Empire of the Clouds. So we're looking at about a 7 minute average song length on this new one.
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idunnosomename
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Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:47 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:08 pm 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
I expect:

songs that are way too long
pompous yet superficial takes on all the lyrical subjects
Bruce singing in 1 and a half octaves
a lame album cover
choruses that repeat the title 4 times, with slight melodic variations
95% of the IM audience to not care if any of these songs are played live
an E, C, D chord progression


It's E, C, G, D since at least 2000. the amount of their songs that use that. fucking absurd. not sure if there were any blatant uses of it on Book of Souls, when I think back? Never played along to any of that album. But yeah you could do a canon of Out of the Silent Planet, The Wicker Man, Blood Brothers because they all use exactly the same chords

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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:19 pm 
 

Not just that they use those same chords, but the songwriting is absolutely centered on those chords.
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Spiner202
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:51 pm 
 

To be fair, that chord progression has been used since the beginning. Hallowed Be Thy Name is built on it, alongside several over tracks from their classic records.

I enjoy all of their post-2000 work but some albums are definitely better than others. The Book of Souls was one of my favourites, and I hope they're able to create something just as good (though hopefully shorter). Ironically, my favourite tracks are the long ones. The title track is easily one of their most creative and unique songs, and Bruce kills it on that song.
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Smoking_Gnu
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:56 pm 
 

Yeah, it's weird that the only tracks I'd consider filler on BoS are actually the short ones - you could cut out The Great Unknown, Tears of a Clown and Man of Sorrows and get it down to a long but smoother single-disc album.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:59 pm 
 

Book of Souls was actually interesting because they did several middle-length songs like people want, interspersed with the big epic ones. It's just that they had much longer songs than usual for the epics, so it didn't end up feeling more balanced to some people.

"If Eternity Could Fail" and "Shadows of the Valley" would probably be my picks, and "Empire of the Clouds."
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SculptedCold
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:19 am 
 

It's amazing to me that Book of Souls gets so much praise, in a forum that has generally long complained about Maiden's modern song lengths. It's by far my least liked Maiden, and I love over-long contemporary Iron Maiden records. The short songs are goofy as hell with unusually trite lyrics, even for Maiden, and the long songs are soooooo long and so empty I can't see how they are supposed to surpass songs on the antecedent four albums. And 'Empire of the Clouds'... ugh. Hot garbage.

I'm actually looking forward to some new Maiden though, 'cuz I can't imagine how they could write anything more boring or irritating than Book of Souls.

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Acrobat
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:16 am 
 

There would have to be a lot of changes to the recent formula for this to work for me (I'm much, much more interested in a new record from Bruce, especially if he can muster some classy stuff along the lines of The Chemical Wedding - but that, too, is doubtful). Maiden obviously have such a strong fanbase (some might say sycophantic :P ) that they don't really need to do any of this, but it would be cool if they reevaluated some of their choices in the past...umm... 3 decades. Here's what I'd like to see:

a) Hire a new producer - Roy Z is the obvious choice. I read somewhere that the long-term hearing damage that older bands have partially explains their risible production choices, but after 5 studio albums it's clear that Kevin Shirley is not the man for the job. The band says he captures a "live" sound, but that can't be true because Maiden sound great live whereas recent albums have been quite dry and flat to my ears.
b) Steve Harris takes music lessons. Particularly, theory lessons. If you're trying to write engaging progressive epics doing so from a fairly limited musical vocabulary is not really going to help you. Others have mentioned the E-C-D chord progressions, but what about the endless root-fifth picking exercises? It's clear to me that he might benefit from thinking outside of the box. Love Jethro Tull? Great, but attempting to create what they did with a fairly limited musical background might not be useful here.
c) Get someone in (read: new producer) who will edit your work. This seems to me where Andy Sneap's real strength is; he makes bands actually sit down and focus on their own work rather than just accepting it because they're legends.

Obviously, it's highly plausible that the band are just a spent force creatively, but I'd be more interested if they tried something outside the box.
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thrashinbatman
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:54 pm 
 

Yeah, Maiden past few have really been wearing me out. I couldn't make it all the way through Final Frontier with the multiple over-long songs that start with clean intros all placed in a row in the second half of the record. Book of Souls really doubled down on the stuff I didn't like in Final Frontier. Those both have really exposed their limitations in terms of songwriting to me. I hear a lot of "Maiden-isms" in the songs which you can hear even back in the early stuff, but those were bolstered by solid songwriting and punchy delivery. The songwriting isn't as lively anymore so you hear the tropes and conventions they lean on, and you quickly find out how limited their repertoire is. Not to say they're entirely irredeemable, it's still Maiden of course, but I'd love to hear Maiden write a 50 minute record with one song over 7 minutes.

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idunnosomename
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:58 pm 
 

Yeah it's not just E C (G) D, it's the unimaginative power chord arpeggios. This isn't just some esoteric intellectual criticism: it's BORING

Edit also nothing intrinsically wrong with the progression. Diamond Head's The Coffin Train track from this year is basically I-VI as its main hook and it's brilliant. Arguably it is the bread of metal, just need to be creative with it.


Last edited by idunnosomename on Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:08 pm 
 

Book of Souls was cool in my book. If could have been a bit shorter and the added orchestration wasn't great imho but overall it was way better than The Final Frontier and Dance of Death.

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Temple Of Blood
Old Man Yells at Cloud

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:56 pm 
 

thrashinbatman wrote:
Yeah, Maiden past few have really been wearing me out. I couldn't make it all the way through Final Frontier with the multiple over-long songs that start with clean intros all placed in a row in the second half of the record. Book of Souls really doubled down on the stuff I didn't like in Final Frontier. Those both have really exposed their limitations in terms of songwriting to me. I hear a lot of "Maiden-isms" in the songs which you can hear even back in the early stuff, but those were bolstered by solid songwriting and punchy delivery. The songwriting isn't as lively anymore so you hear the tropes and conventions they lean on, and you quickly find out how limited their repertoire is. Not to say they're entirely irredeemable, it's still Maiden of course, but I'd love to hear Maiden write a 50 minute record with one song over 7 minutes.


You said it all very well.

I would add that a singer with a huge range could help too, which they used to have.
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Speed Metal Terror
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:19 pm 
 

I'd like to hear some more songs in the vein of "Rainmaker" or "Out of the Silent Planet."
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idunnosomename
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:29 pm 
 

I feel their shorter songs can be a bit forced now. Like El Dorado, The Alchemist, The Speed of Light, Tears of a Clown - nobodies favorites.

I dont mind long songs, as long as they earn it. The only song on Book of Souls which goes on too long, in classic Harris repeating riffs to saturation point style, is The Red and the Black imo. That song could be half as long and have the same musical material in it.

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thrashinbatman
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:55 pm 
 

idunnosomename wrote:
I feel their shorter songs can be a bit forced now. Like El Dorado, The Alchemist, The Speed of Light, Tears of a Clown - nobodies favorites.

I dont mind long songs, as long as they earn it. The only song on Book of Souls which goes on too long, in classic Harris repeating riffs to saturation point style, is The Red and the Black imo. That song could be half as long and have the same musical material in it.

I saw them on the Book of Souls tour and they played one of the songs, it might have been that one, but I'm not sure. They're just jamming on a harmony, and my friend leans over and says, "man, it just keeps fuckin' going, doesn't it?" And that's pretty much my experience with most of their long songs since the reunion.

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idunnosomename
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:01 pm 
 

I think it worked with The Sign of the Cross, which has some good ways to spin out the same thing in a kind of mesmerising epic blur. I mean, are you going to tell me King Crimson's Starless is bad because a lot of the mid-section is Robert Fripp playing one note? but then Fripp never did anything like that again, and Harris built much of his songwriting on that henceforth.

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TrooperEd
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:05 pm 
 

People who whine about Maiden's chord progressions are the equivalent of people whining that Sonic's arms are now blue.
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LegendMaker
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:49 pm 
 

Let's not beat around the bush, here. "Phantom of the Opera" is a pretty long song, but it doesn't feel long when you listen to it, because there are more (good) ideas packed in that one song than in entire albums they've released in recent years. It's not just about length, it's about content. There are 3 minute songs that feel like an eternity because nothing's going on past the first 30 seconds or so.

Let's pick one song at random on 'The Book of Souls'... Okay, I got "The Great Unknown". Well, it clocks in at 6 minutes and 37 fucking seconds... And I have received all of the information it contains after the first... 18 seconds. Yeah. Every last one of the 389 seconds after that is just that same 18 second phrase repeated and derived to death on autopilot, and that phrase isn't particularly good or interesting to begin with.

Now let's do the same exercise with, say, "Flash of the Blade" off of 'Powerslave'. It lasts 4 minutes and 5 seconds, and the main idea is contained in the first 8 seconds. That idea is a pretty damn cool one, though. OH! And there's an interesting counterpoint happening within the first 30 seconds already, and then the verse has an entirely different riff and progression, it's not just an autopilot derivation of the initial loop. OH! And the chorus is catchy as fuck and not exactly predictable from the original loop either. OH! And the solo section is beautiful and varied, with additional musical phrases thrown in... Well, that's not the greatest song in the world or anything, but DAMN. That's actually a song, and a really good one. There's inspiration, taste and emotions in there. Those 4+ minutes went by in a... well, flash, and I didn't feel bored to death at any point, certainly not in the way I was within 30 seconds of "The Great Unknown"... Interesting.
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SculptedCold
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:57 pm 
 

^ very well put, I agree. I happen to love most of the melodies and riffs they arrange on the recent albums.. enough for me to forgive the repetition and lack of variety. Book of Souls is the first Maiden where I haven't found those qualities good enough to mask the ever-growing song lengths.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:56 pm 
 

Meh I've never looked at music broken up into sections of songs like that, personally. Just not how I've ever analyzed anything.
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Chaosmonger
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:25 pm 
 

^the pieces form the whole though. You don't need to break their newer songs apart to tell they're repetitive as hell except when you're making a post on a forum about why their new stuff isn't that good.

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LegendMaker
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:42 pm 
 

^Yup. That was exactly the point. Empy's comment got it completely backwards.

I never dissected "Flash of the Blade" this way until exactly today, although I've listened to it a few thousand times over the past 30 years or so, and I've always enjoyed it. In contrast, I listened to "The Great Unknown" maybe twice before today, and it bored me to death each time. I didn't need to dissect it this way to know it had little to no meat, and that what little meat it had was very poor in nutrients. I just did this as an exercise to confirm it, and both songs passed the test with flying colors: the 80s one as a real song with tons of good content and a healthy structure, and the recent one as a tiny piece of garbage meticulously stretched out and embellished to pass as a (long and "progressive") song to the untrained ear.
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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:25 pm 
 

Yeah, I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense at all. I actually think The Great Unknown is cool. You're just comparing two songs that have nothng in common structure-wise. Maiden have a lot of classic songs bassed on just a few riffs repeated over and over (Fear of the Dark).

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:47 pm 
 

I listen to their 80s stuff and the newer albums pretty regularly and like all of it. They've changed their writing style away from the manic energy and riff-salad style of the really old albums and have developed a new, slower, more epic style - it works for me. Always dug "The Great Unknown" for the atmosphere, vocal delivery, etc. Cool song in my book. I suppose I just disagree with the main premise of it being repetitive in a bad way - sounds fine to me.
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LegendMaker
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:32 pm 
 

Well, to each their own. To my ears, the extreme dilution and the autopilot syndrome (what fans of these albums perceive as "epic", "progressive" etc.) ruin even the few modern-day Maiden songs that I do think have genuinely good or even great things going for them, like "These Colours Don't Run" off of AMOLAD, for instance. The difference is that this particular song only really outstays its welcome after about half of its duration, instead of almost right away like most of the others (I really picked "The Great Unknown" at random, I had no clue whether it was well-liked or not by fans of that album).

The mention of the title track of 'Fear of the Dark' specifically is interesting here. I never liked that song either, and when it eventually became a "classic" many years later, it came as a surprise to me. It has the same problems as their post-2000 stuff, and "Afraid to Shoot Strangers" off of the same album. When I got my hands on this record in 1992, the only standout song was clearly "Be Quick or Be Dead" to my ears, even if "Judas Be My Guide" became my favorite later on.

I agree that even some of their classic songs could have been improved by cutting some of the added corn syrup, though (yes, I can't bring myself to refer to fat as the bad thing anymore, knowing how fucking good it actually is for your health). "Seventh Son" and "Rime of the Ancient Mariner" for instance, definitely. But the vast majority of these songs' contents are so damn good, I can overlook the unnecessary parts. It's another story when the good parts are a bit mundane in the first place, however.

Anyways, it's a pointless debate to have, I know. Those who soldiered on as fans past BNW will soldier on to the bitter end no matter what. The rest of us won't come back to the fold unless the band seriously shakes things up, and that won't happen either. So yeah. Acrobat and I will keep going to the "old songs only" tours, you guys will keep going to the other tours, and that's fine, I guess. Enjoy.
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Osore wrote:
I would like to hear some recommendations of black metal bands/albums that sound depressive, yet sad and melancholic at the same time.

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