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true_death
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Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:47 pm
Posts: 2390
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:54 am 
 

droneriot wrote:
Don't quote me on it in case someone decides to get all Wayback Machine on me, but I'm almost certain that the extreme comparisons for Arghoslent's sound were from a time when the band was listed on the site as simply "death metal" and there was a very clear and strong dissonance between the expectations (you know, expecting death metal) and the music heard


They were, and from what I recall there was some really hilarious mental gymnastics going on around here about why the "melodic" pre-fix was ill-fitting.

For the record, I absolutely love melodic death metal and I'll defend even the most hated bands like In Flames and Amon Amarth against detractors all day...but Argholsent? No, you guys are totally right - they really do suck and always have. Used to own Incorrigible Bigotry and it's incredibly bland and colorless music, even when compared to bottom of the barrel shit like say, nowadays Arch Enemy. That said, House of Atreus are even worse so there's something I guess.
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idunnosomename
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Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:47 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:04 pm 
 

I've just listened to the first three tracks of IB, and I agree it's bland, but not colourless. They do have a decent vision on their sound. But I don't reckon they do much with it. The riffs are mostly bleh, if well played. For melodic death the first two songs are totally forgettable. Then the third song - which is much better musically - has the N-word in it gratuitously and as far as I understand for the slave trade c.1800, ahistorical, and really, I don't want to make it to the last track, which is fucking nasty as it gets. Sons of Shem: fuck off lads.

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thrashinbatman
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Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 1534
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:31 pm 
 

What pisses me off the most (besides the racism, obviously) is that the cover to Incorrigible Bigotry is really fuckin' cool and now that artwork is so associated with Arghoslent that no one else can really get away with using it now.

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blackmantram
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Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:51 pm
Posts: 997
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:31 pm 
 

Right? If only Arghoslent weren't so big and mainstream and known only by a small, niche group of metalheads...

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Burnyoursins
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:53 pm 
 

Arghoslent are well known within the metal community, we're not talking about fucking Hateform here. On a world scale, obviously they're a niche band, just like any other "extreme" metal band. But in the world of metal, they've definitely made a name for themselves. Not a good name, but a name nonetheless.
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Substantia_Nigrae
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Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:42 am
Posts: 254
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:53 pm 
 

blackmantram wrote:
Right? If only Arghoslent weren't so big and mainstream and known only by a small, niche group of metalheads...


Never mind the sarcasm, they are actually pretty well-known worldwide within the metal circles, and far from being an obscure entity...

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blackmantram
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Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:51 pm
Posts: 997
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:04 pm 
 

Yeah, but it's not like the painting will be universally associated to racism by everyone who looks at it just because a band followed by a relatively small group of people used it in one of their albums.

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idunnosomename
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Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:47 pm
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Location: England
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:23 pm 
 

thrashinbatman wrote:
What pisses me off the most (besides the racism, obviously) is that the cover to Incorrigible Bigotry is really fuckin' cool and now that artwork is so associated with Arghoslent that no one else can really get away with using it now.
you mean Cole's the Course of Empire? (It has mutiple covers)


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Course_of_Empire_(paintings)
despite the original being about hubris and entropy, they use it more as a dogwhistle for the end of "western civilisation" by "barbarians". Its difficult to reappropriate that painting from that meaning but the others are cool.

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BenjaminC81
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Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:17 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:39 pm 
 

Couldn't care less about their lyrical content even though i agree with them on quite a few points. Just glad to see these guys put out another album. I thought we had seen the last of them, but i'm glad they are coming back after all this time to shake things up.

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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:24 pm 
 

BenjaminC81 wrote:
Couldn't care less about their lyrical content even though i agree with them on quite a few points.

Which ones? Please tell us.

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:27 pm 
 

Agreeing with their lyrics is ignorance, plain and simple... hope people who do can get educated someday.
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Speed Metal Terror
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:53 pm 
 

How much of this artist's success is derived from not ignoring their widdly melodeath and yelling about them?
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BenjaminC81
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:23 am 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
BenjaminC81 wrote:
Couldn't care less about their lyrical content even though i agree with them on quite a few points.

Which ones? Please tell us.


Well if you read some interview in the past they fault the white race for the state of things just as much as the mexicans or black people. To me the band has more of a misantrophic outview on things. Although i admit singling out a single group is highly suspicious move. But like most black metal bands (Satanic Warmaster for example) these things are often used to stir up controversy in my opinion. But i always separate the music from the artist. Since i'm interested in the music first and everything else is secondary to me.

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Substantia_Nigrae
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Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:42 am
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:38 am 
 

BenjaminC81 wrote:

Well if you read some interview in the past they fault the white race for the state of things just as much as the mexicans or black people. To me the band has more of a misantrophic outview on things. Although i admit singling out a single group is highly suspicious move. But like most black metal bands (Satanic Warmaster for example) these things are often used to stir up controversy in my opinion. But i always separate the music from the artist. Since i'm interested in the music first and everything else is secondary to me.


I wonder how these types would view things if, say, they were Jewish, and someone recommends them a blatant NSBM album, 'because the music is so good'. Would they 'separate the artist from the art'? I find the above-mentioned 'I care only for the music' manifesto highly hypocritical.

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Deathstalker1985
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Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:53 pm
Posts: 390
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:55 am 
 

Speaking of other bands being able to use the same cover used for Incorrigible Bigotry, I just happened to see earlier the band Heaven Shall Burn just released a single with it lol.

Image


Last edited by Deathstalker1985 on Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:12 am 
 

Substantia_Nigrae wrote:
I wonder how these types would view things if, say, they were Jewish, and someone recommends them a blatant NSBM album, 'because the music is so good'. Would they 'separate the artist from the art'? I find the above-mentioned 'I care only for the music' manifesto highly hypocritical.

Among Jewish black metal fans there are just as many people who listen to NSBM as there are among white black metal fans. Same with black black metal fans, Asian black metal fans, Hispanic black metal fans, the preferences are pretty much the same. In fact it's probably even more common, since non-whites aren't as offended by white people's history because they don't have the reason to be, they weren't the ones who did the holocaust, segregation, the KKK, apartheid, etc, our ancestors were the fuck ups who did that so obviously we're more sickened by it than the people who don't have grandparents responsible for those kinds of atrocities.
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hakarl
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Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:16 am 
 

droneriot wrote:
Substantia_Nigrae wrote:
I wonder how these types would view things if, say, they were Jewish, and someone recommends them a blatant NSBM album, 'because the music is so good'. Would they 'separate the artist from the art'? I find the above-mentioned 'I care only for the music' manifesto highly hypocritical.

Among Jewish black metal fans there are just as many people who listen to NSBM as there are among white black metal fans. Same with black black metal fans, Asian black metal fans, Hispanic black metal fans, the preferences are pretty much the same. In fact it's probably even more common, since non-whites aren't as offended by white people's history because they don't have the reason to be, they weren't the ones who did the holocaust, segregation, the KKK, apartheid, etc, our ancestors were the fuck ups who did that so obviously we're more sickened by it than the people who don't have grandparents responsible for those kinds of atrocities.

That's a ridiculous notion. Where did you get these statistics?
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:40 am 
 

Why don't you ask IG Farben or No Colours about sales by country if you think all sales go to Kentucky or Ukraine or other stereotypical white supremacist strongholds exclusively.
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hakarl
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:46 am 
 

Do you think they will tell me that they're in fact selling tons of NSBM to their jewish fans in Israel?
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:50 am 
 

Yes. They have the distribution and the fanbase.

It's not like the Israeli neo-nazi scene has ever been a secret considering there have been documentaries and a somewhat-ish well-known movie about it.

-edit- Separated the above into two paragraphs because black metal fans enjoying NSBM and neo-nazis enjoying NSBM are two different things and it wasn't supposed to look like mentioned in one breath. The former should be pretty clear it's global considering the biggest fappings over the band in this thread come from Latin America, that's not isolated to this place, you see it everywhere. The latter is also very clearly global considering the globality of NSBM.
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Last edited by droneriot on Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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hakarl
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:53 am 
 

So if they're selling NSBM to Israeli neo-Nazis, how is it significant that a neo-Nazi is not offended by Nazi propaganda? What's your point?
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Necrodictator
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Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:33 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:31 pm 
 

Substantia_Nigrae wrote:
I wonder how these types would view things if, say, they were Jewish, and someone recommends them a blatant NSBM album, 'because the music is so good'. Would they 'separate the artist from the art'? I find the above-mentioned 'I care only for the music' manifesto highly hypocritical.

If there was there was an anti-Russian band which had cool music I guess I wouldn't mind. I also occasionally enjoy listening to one Islamic artist praising suicide bombers (Timur Mutsurayev).

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XcKyle93
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:37 pm 
 

Arghoslent has always been a tough one for me. I never thought they were that amazing, and their bigotry makes me want to hate them... but as melodeath enthusiast, I can't deny that they have great and fairly creative riffs. But after reading through some of the lyrics on Incorrigible Bigotry... holy shit, they're way worse than I remembered. It's been quite a while since I've listened to them, but I still recognize most of their songs, so their riffs must have left some sort of impression on me.

Also, Heaven Shall Burn re-using the Incorrigible Bigotry artwork has to be intentional.
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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:49 pm 
 

Necrodictator wrote:
Substantia_Nigrae wrote:
I wonder how these types would view things if, say, they were Jewish, and someone recommends them a blatant NSBM album, 'because the music is so good'. Would they 'separate the artist from the art'? I find the above-mentioned 'I care only for the music' manifesto highly hypocritical.

If there was there was an anti-Russian band which had cool music I guess I wouldn't mind. I also occasionally enjoy listening to one Islamic artist praising suicide bombers (Timur Mutsurayev).

Yeah, that's exactly the same. I didn't know being Russian was dangerous in other parts of the world. As a matter of fact I always thought the most dangerous thing for a Russian was having to live in Russia.

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:58 pm 
 

After Muslims and Jews, Russians are the biggest target of neo-nazi skinhead/hooligan groups in Germany. Also their biggest supporters which doesn't make any fucking sense.
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BastardHead
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:06 pm 
 

re: the artwork: come on guys it's the central figure in Destruction, the fourth of a five part series of paintings by Thomas Cole (aka the guy whose paintings also adorned Candlemass's best albums) called Course of Empire that has been extremely well known and famous for like two hundred years by now. I know it's super famous because I've seen it outside the context of a metal album and I know fuck-all about art and still knew it anyway. It's a cool scene in a cool painting that happens to map pretty well onto metal albums. Arghoslent doesn't spiritually own something that predates their great-great-great-great ancestors and I wouldn't be the tiniest bit surprised to learn that Heaven Shall Burn or Breaknek or Of the Son or even the band that used it before Incorrigible Bigotry was even written have never even heard of Arghoslent.

Don't get Terminal MA Brain. We're just a specific subsect of nerds who might think of that painting as having racist connotations simply because we're deep enough into the shit to know and care about the racist band that used it once. Flush that poison out of your brain.
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Bingewolf
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Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:07 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
Substantia_Nigrae wrote:
I wonder how these types would view things if, say, they were Jewish, and someone recommends them a blatant NSBM album, 'because the music is so good'. Would they 'separate the artist from the art'? I find the above-mentioned 'I care only for the music' manifesto highly hypocritical.

Among Jewish black metal fans there are just as many people who listen to NSBM as there are among white black metal fans. Same with black black metal fans, Asian black metal fans, Hispanic black metal fans, the preferences are pretty much the same. In fact it's probably even more common, since non-whites aren't as offended by white people's history because they don't have the reason to be, they weren't the ones who did the holocaust, segregation, the KKK, apartheid, etc, our ancestors were the fuck ups who did that so obviously we're more sickened by it than the people who don't have grandparents responsible for those kinds of atrocities.


This is an absolutely ridiculous notion. If you want to say that there is only a sliver of the subculture who listens to NSBM, that is one thing, but implying that there are an equal amount of non-white NSBM fans as there are white NSBM fans is just plain incorrect - unless you can post actual facts and statistics to prove your case. Saying "ask No Colours if people from Israel buy their music" is not proof. And a wildly provocative statement like that should come with some if you want to back it up.

And to the point I think you were trying to make - I definitely agree that there is only a small sliver of black metal fans who pedal in the racist scene. However, when you give tolerance to that sub-scene, it only emboldens it and makes others think that it's acceptable. So allowing Arghoslent a pass because "the riffs" is impossible.

Also, personally, I find that the racist bands everyone tries to give a pass to, namely Arghoslent and GBK, are just plain sloppy and boring musically anyway. There are plenty of great BM bands to choose from that aren't racist scum.

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:16 pm 
 

"Just as many" refers to percentage, not amount. Should be obvious to anyone not fishing for statements that aren't there.
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hakarl
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:21 pm 
 

That's still a pretty implausible claim. :lol: No, I'm not contacting those pricks to back up something ridiculous that you said.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:54 pm 
 

Well yeah you keep claiming it's "ridiculous" with absolutely zero evidence as if there's any burden of proof on me when already it's clear from the people posting in this thread, people reviewing the albums, people listening on last.fm, people talking on Facebook, etc that their fans come from around the planet. You throw some outlandish "I don't want it to be true therefore it isn't true" at me despite seeing everywhere that it's not just white skinheads or whatever listening to the band. I thought reality denial was limited to Donald Trump fan groups on Facebook but apparently it's impossible to escape these days.
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Substantia_Nigrae
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:05 pm 
 

Makes only sense that Jewish metalheads would listen to -- and enjoy -- music that supports and promotes their own eradication...

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Bingewolf
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:15 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
Well yeah you keep claiming it's "ridiculous" with absolutely zero evidence as if there's any burden of proof on me when already it's clear from the people posting in this thread, people reviewing the albums, people listening on last.fm, people talking on Facebook, etc that their fans come from around the planet. You throw some outlandish "I don't want it to be true therefore it isn't true" at me despite seeing everywhere that it's not just white skinheads or whatever listening to the band. I thought reality denial was limited to Donald Trump fan groups on Facebook but apparently it's impossible to escape these days.


Saying that people from all around the world listen to Arghoslent is one thing, what you wrote is something else. Just because a band sells records in Israel doesn't mean that it's even Jewish people buying those records. There are many backgrounds of people in Israel, just as there are throughout the world. That's my point.

And in fairness, I did say that I think I know what you were trying to get at but that your explanation of that was not great. But if you are going to make claims like that, you have to expect that people are going to want you to back them up with proof.

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~Guest 454771
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:35 pm 
 

Who want's to believe that Jews can be Nazis? The world is a sad and fascinating place.

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Aldrahn333
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:48 am 
 

Although they play plenty of well structured riffs, definitely too melodic for my taste. I like that shirt "War is to man" and I'm going to buy it.

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Necrodictator
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:57 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:

Yeah, that's exactly the same. I didn't know being Russian was dangerous in other parts of the world. As a matter of fact I always thought the most dangerous thing for a Russian was having to live in Russia.


There are actually some places in the world where it was dangerous to be a Russian, at least during 90s. For example Chechnya which was de-facto independent in the 90s and some other ex-Soviet Muslim republics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cl ... n_Chechnya

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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:18 pm 
 

Necrodictator wrote:
Gravetemplar wrote:

Yeah, that's exactly the same. I didn't know being Russian was dangerous in other parts of the world. As a matter of fact I always thought the most dangerous thing for a Russian was having to live in Russia.


There are actually some places in the world where it was dangerous to be a Russian, at least during 90s. For example Chechnya which was de-facto independent in the 90s and some other ex-Soviet Muslim republics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cl ... n_Chechnya

Yeah, and the Russians did the same to the Chechens. That was the First Chechen War for you. Any other wars you want to report in order to claim it's the same being gay or black than being Russian?

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Necrodictator
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:05 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
Yeah, and the Russians did the same to the Chechens. That was the First Chechen War for you. Any other wars you want to report in order to claim it's the same being gay or black than being Russian?

These things actually started before the First Chechen War, and two wrongs do not make a right anyway. The original question was about being Jewish and having an NSBM album recommended to them. Being black is quite different since in that case this "feature" is instantly visible. I do not think that being Jewish or being Russian is more dangerous in the western/westernized parts of the world than being a German, British etc.

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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:20 pm 
 

Necrodictator wrote:
Gravetemplar wrote:
Yeah, and the Russians did the same to the Chechens. That was the First Chechen War for you. Any other wars you want to report in order to claim it's the same being gay or black than being Russian?

These things actually started before the First Chechen War, and two wrongs do not make a right anyway. The original question was about being Jewish and having an NSBM album recommended to them. Being black is quite different since in that case this "feature" is instantly visible. I do not think that being Jewish or being Russian is more dangerous in the western/westernized parts of the world than being a German, British etc.

I'm sorry but no, it's not. Being gay isn't an "instantly visible feature" either and it's dangerous (especially in Russia). Being jewish is just the same. Every time a mechanic checks an Israeli aerplane, armed man need to be present in a lot of airports all over the world. A lot* of Synagogues in Germany have security detachments to protect them from terrorist attacks. That's far from being safe I'd say. You live with a target all your life. So please, from now on refrain from comparing being Russian to being Jewish if you don't want to be labeled as racist because it definetely is.

Edited. Source: https://www.timesofisrael.com/germany-r ... -shooting/


Last edited by Gravetemplar on Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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into_the_pit
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:54 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
Every synagogue in Germany has it's own military detachment to protect it from terrorist attacks.


this is not true. I'm not going to take part in an ideological debate in a music forum (which is clearly what is happening here), but this statement is factually wrong and that's why I'm stepping in to say so.
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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:07 pm 
 

into_the_pit wrote:
Gravetemplar wrote:
Every synagogue in Germany has it's own military detachment to protect it from terrorist attacks.


this is not true. I'm not going to take part in an ideological debate in a music forum (which is clearly what is happening here), but this statement is factually wrong and that's why I'm stepping in to say so.

I stand corrected, it's only on some of the states and I was under the impression that ocurred on a national level:

"In the eastern state of Thuringia, authorities have agreed to post armed officers outside synagogues during services, Der Speigel reported. In Hesse, security will be provided at every synagogue and Jewish institution during Jewish holidays, a police spokesman said. And in Bavaria, synagogues were added as stops to routine police patrols following the attack".

https://www.timesofisrael.com/germany-r ... -shooting/

My point still stands though.

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