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How many max entries should there be per ballot?
Poll ended at Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:54 am
10 71%  71%  [ 88 ]
15 6%  6%  [ 8 ]
20 23%  23%  [ 28 ]
Total votes : 124
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BastardHead
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 11:54 am 
 

VOTING IS NOT OPEN YET, DO NOT SEND YOUR BALLOT

Obviously, y'all knew this was coming sooner rather than later. The polls here are one of my favorite community-building things we do here and the mid-year poll last year was a smashing success, so it was a no brainer to do it again this year. The category is also an obvious one, with the decade rolling over last year, we have a very clear and exciting window with which to gauge things. So it's going to be a poll for Album of the Decade.

However, there is a change I'm considering, and I want your input on it. The black metal poll last year was a huge success, but the most valid complaint I got was that 10 albums per ballot was too restricting when talking about such an incredibly wide span of time. I'm absolutely not going to change it for the usual polls in December, but I think there's a valid concern with regards to the mid-year polls since the idea is to have less rules and to just be more loose with it. So I want to open it up to you guys and ask you how wide the ballots should be?

PROS AND CONS OF EACH

10: This is how we've always done it and we know it works smoothly. I already have the point totals set up in a coherent way so everything is weighted logically. Napalm_Satan has offered to help with the analytics again this time around, and keeping things the same will keep the amount of work we have to do with this the same as before, meaning it's basically a guarantee that we can get the results out on July 1st. However, this is pretty limiting when we're talking about an entire decade worth of albums to choose from, and both of us agree that opening it up would be beneficial.

15: My main trepidation with widening the ballot would be needing to redo the point values, since I just stole the original from the F1 Grand Prix scoring system. This means I'd need to find a system that weighs things similarly, and my early musings haven't been 100% satisfactory. Doing so would also make comparing between this poll and past year-end polls pointless since nearly everything will assuredly wind up with more points than before, even with the same or less votes. However, that's a pretty minor thing since that's the sort of stuff that goes into my Final Thoughts section and ultimately doesn't mean much. The benefits are obvious: more albums to choose from, more on the final list to explore the things you haven't heard, more metal more better.

20: Basically double the positives and the negatives from the 15 option. I pride myself on getting the results out as fast as possible but doubling the amount of albums to tally could push it back a day. However I've gotten much quicker at getting it done and there's always the possibility that the same raw number of albums wind up getting voted for and it will take the exact same amount of time as usual, there's really no way to know until it happens.

Also keep in mind that whatever winds up winning the pre-poll, I don't make it a hard requirement during low-stress summer polls. So if 20 entries wins and you only want to vote for six or whatever, that's fine by me. Also keep in mind I don't really have a preference this time around and actually lean towards an expansion myself, so I want you to vote purely on what it is that you want, instead of what you think will make this easier for N_S and myself.

VOTING IS NOT OPEN YET, DO NOT SEND YOUR BALLOT

If you're really excited and already have your albums picked out, please wait until JUNE 1ST when voting actually opens. If you send me 20 and 10 winds up winning, I'm not going back and rejiggering all the old ballots that came early, so don't bother, I won't count them.

We still have nine days before the month turns and voting actually opens up, at which time I'll post the official thread with the rules (spoiler alert, they're gonna be the same as the BM poll). Until then, use this thread to discuss the options outlined above so we can make this run as smoothly as possible for you all!
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snarg
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri May 22, 2020 4:25 pm
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 12:15 pm 
 

IMO, usually, listing 10 albums is already hard enough as it is. The more albums you add on top of that the more diluted by questionable quality those lists become.

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Zelkiiro
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 12:22 pm 
 

10 albums for me. The point should be to distill the decade's best down to as pure a selection as possible.
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Xytras71
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 12:51 pm 
 

Agreed with others. 10 is a way to go!

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Tekdeth
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 12:51 pm 
 

I think I'm gonna have to go for 10 as well, as it will probably yield more than enough worthwhile albums for everyone to check out. Besides, won't there be an infinitely large rando-corner if we were to allow 20 albums per ballot? (almost) No one is going to dig through such an immensely huge list.
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Subrick
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 12:56 pm 
 

10. Easiest and simplest way to do it.
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jimbies
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 1:03 pm 
 

I voted for 20, as a knee jerk reaction thinking, "how the hell am I supposed to narrow 10 years down into 10 picks? I'm going to end up picking one from each year!"
And then I remembered how much work you guys put into these (I ran a non-metal one once, and even that was a headache), and I'm thinking, hey if you have a formula that works, stick to it so you don't burn yourself out on running these polls. They're always super well received and appreciated.

I initially made a quick list, and I was able to narrow it down to 25. With more work and revisiting the records over the next bit, I could get it down to whatever you guys decide on.

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BastardHead
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 1:04 pm 
 

Ah yeah, I forgot to mention two other elements that you guys touched on: my belief that these should be honors and not wikipedia lists, so the less the better, and that Rando Corner will be like six CVS receipts long if the total is doubled. However I don't think either of these are necessarily big problems, since this type of poll is meant to basically be a huge list anyway and let's be real, nobody scours Rando Corner unless they're looking for one of their own votes.

Either way, I'd have no problem whatsoever with sticking to 10, nor do I have a problem expanding it. The early majority seems to be going for 10 right off the bat and that's actually kinda surprising since I've heard complaints every year that 10 isn't enough, but I guess that's what a vocal minority is. Either way I'm leaving it up until the 1st just so everybody gets a chance and I'll honor whatever wins.
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Subrick
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 1:14 pm 
 

Will the actual voting period be extended if the final number of entries ends up being more than 10, or is that staying the same no matter what?
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Xytras71
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:57 am
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 1:40 pm 
 

The way I see it, yesterday quite a few of us managed to do an almost impossible task of Top 10 of ALL TIMES before the thread got locked. I am sure Top 10 of a decade would be a breeze...considering that most of the entries on the expanded lists would end up in a rando corner anyway...

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HviteGuden
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 1:53 pm 
 

I'm for 10.

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Pitiless Wanderer
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 2:03 pm 
 

10 for sure. It'll force people to choose more carefully.

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BastardHead
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 2:37 pm 
 

Subrick wrote:
Will the actual voting period be extended if the final number of entries ends up being more than 10, or is that staying the same no matter what?


Regardless of what wins, the voting period will be the entire month of June. I know it was shorter with the BM one but frankly I'm fuckin' bored at home here.
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raumr
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 2:42 pm 
 

10. As easy and straigtforward as ever. We will have to be merciless when we cut down our lists to only 10.

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Unorthodox
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 3:46 pm 
 

I said 20 because it's covering a very large time period, but it looks like I'm in the minority on this one :P
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MorbidEarth
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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:39 am
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 4:14 pm 
 

10 albums is the most logical choice. Having that number as a maximum forces you to really narrow your choices down and think about why an album should be considered good enough to be included on such a list.

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Unorthodox
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 6:14 pm 
 

Kind of weird, I'm going through my music and there's quite a bit of EPs that I consider serious contenders for my top 10 list. Very different than how I expected it to turn out.
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Mellifleur
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 9:37 pm 
 

Top ten is classic. We think in tens. Ten fingers, ten toes, ten pieces of our souls.
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the_bard_of_osyrhia
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 10:58 pm 
 

10 Just makes sense. It's the ten commandments, B.I.G's ten crack commandments, you know what I'm sure there's a more metal 10 things for me to bring up as well.
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 12:00 am 
 

I vote for 20 because I feel like the dropoff from #1 to #20 will be less for me than some others, and I hate to leave things off, but it's looking like 10 is going to win.

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Napalm_Satan
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 3:45 am 
 

Aah, finally. I've been anticipating this for a while :) I've been working towards a top 200 for the decade. I'd prefer 20 as my top 20 feels like a more complete list than my top 10 or 15, though i'm happy with all of them so any will do, ultimately.

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snarg
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Joined: Fri May 22, 2020 4:25 pm
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 5:36 am 
 

Sorry if this has been addressed in some other thread, but i couldn't find it.

Re-issues and compilations that include pre-2010 releases don't count, right?

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Zelkiiro
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 7:52 am 
 

snarg wrote:
Sorry if this has been addressed in some other thread, but i couldn't find it.

Re-issues and compilations that include pre-2010 releases don't count, right?

Probably not. The only exception would be full-on album re-recordings.
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Napalm_Satan
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 7:59 am 
 

snarg wrote:
Sorry if this has been addressed in some other thread, but i couldn't find it.

Re-issues and compilations that include pre-2010 releases don't count, right?



From the thread introducing the 2019 end of year poll:

BastardHead wrote:
4) New, original material only: So no live albums or compilations or anything like that. This is simply so no pointless "best of" release or something shows up. Those are never in play unless it's something totally rerecorded and treated as a new release, which to my knowledge is extremely rare, and if there is such a case that you loved and want to vote for, just use your best judgment as to whether or not it's a standalone release or simply a "best of" collection with a new vocalist or something. So full lengths, demos, EPs, splits, etc. are all fair game. Live albums, comps, box sets, rereleases, deluxe editions, etc. are not.


So no, a re-issue of a pre-2010 release wouldn't be in play. I don't think a compilation would be in play either, unless the material it compiles from this decade and never before released? That one's a bit more open to interpretation, it could be treated more leniently or harshly - BH can clarify perhaps.

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raumr
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 9:40 am 
 

Another things to specify perhaps: The "album of the decade" means the best among albums released between January 1st 2010 and December 31st 2019, correct?

I am just throwing it out there, because there's always 1 person wanting to argue the definition of a decade. "Well, akshully the previous decade was the 202nd decade AD and includes 2020". Or something like that. :lol:

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snarg
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 9:56 am 
 

raumr wrote:
Another things to specify perhaps: The "album of the decade" means the best among albums released between January 1st 2010 and December 31st 2019, correct?

I am just throwing it out there, because there's always 1 person wanting to argue the definition of a decade. "Well, akshully the previous decade was the 202nd decade AD and includes 2020". Or something like that. :lol:

I asked that one myself, but given that the voting will happen next month in the middle of 2020 it would be weird that all albums from here until december would be excluded, so my bet is yes, 2019 is where it ends.

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raumr
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 10:12 am 
 

Yes I know that, I just suggested it be written out to avoid the possibility of someone misunderstanding the phrasing.

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BastardHead
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 10:28 am 
 

The full rules will be in the official thread come June 1st, but to clarify two things:

1) Yes, the decade is from 2010-2019 for the same reason that 1990 isn't part of the 1980s.

2) The rules are actually looser for the mid-year polls so basically anything with an entry on MA is eligible, lives and compilations and whatnot included. The only issue could arise if a 2009 album was reissued in 2010 or something with very little changes, but it's just part of the game that there's gonna be some bullshit. Just use your best judgment.
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Zelkiiro
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 10:37 am 
 

BastardHead wrote:
2) The rules are actually looser for the mid-year polls so basically anything with an entry on MA is eligible, lives and compilations and whatnot included.

This seems dangerous.

Incoming lists full of reissues of garbage death metal demos released in '85.
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BastardHead
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 10:39 am 
 

Eh, y'all're pretty good as self-policing so I'm not worried. There's always one or two questionable choices I let slide and they wind up in Rando Corner with one point anyway. The fact that not one single person voted for a Sodom album despite them being technically acceptable during the BM poll gives me hope.
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FLIPPITYFLOOP
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Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:09 pm
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 11:12 am 
 

Zelkiiro wrote:
BastardHead wrote:
2) The rules are actually looser for the mid-year polls so basically anything with an entry on MA is eligible, lives and compilations and whatnot included.

This seems dangerous.

Incoming lists full of reissues of garbage death metal demos released in '85.


This. I think if you were to include lives, compilations, etc., then DEFINITELY limit the lists to 10 to avoid spamming of meaningless bullshit. I can see some people (especially those who lurk the forum but never post) taking advantage of this and trying to put in live and compilation albums because they have classic songs from the 90s and before. I already see Mayhem's DMDS live album getting tons of votes (and though it's a fantastic listen, I don't think it's a fair vote since it's just a performance of 20+ year old songs).

I mean, of course it's your decision at the end of the day BH, but personally I think this is a bad idea. Just my opinion.

Otherwise my vote is for lists of 20, as even though I understand that 10 will force people to be very selective, doing that small of a list I feel will be agonizing when you have a whole decade to play with.

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Spiner202
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 11:47 am 
 

I voted for 10, but am not picky. Using 15 or 20 is more likely to make the list a bit more accurate perhaps, but the amount of incremental work for BH is huge. I think 10 still gives a good representation. Especially when you consider that most of the albums we put between 11-20 will likely only get a few votes across the board.

BastardHead wrote:
The full rules will be in the official thread come June 1st, but to clarify two things:

1) Yes, the decade is from 2010-2019 for the same reason that 1990 isn't part of the 1980s.

2) The rules are actually looser for the mid-year polls so basically anything with an entry on MA is eligible, lives and compilations and whatnot included. The only issue could arise if a 2009 album was reissued in 2010 or something with very little changes, but it's just part of the game that there's gonna be some bullshit. Just use your best judgment.

The weird one here is Heathen's The Evolution of Chaos. Technically got a Japan-only release in 2009 (as shown on the archives), but the typical release date is shown as 2010. That's the only big-name release I can think of that falls into a weird territory.
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CannibalCorpse
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 12:12 pm 
 

I actually kinda like the idea of being forced to vote for 10 albums only. Hard choices, high value. I could live with 20 as well, though. But for some reason, re-using the tried and true-formula sounds about perfect.
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 12:28 pm 
 

Another question is are we essentially allowing anything that has an entry here, including bands that some consider no longer metal on more recent releases? For example, something like Katatonia is borderline, but others like Anthema aren't really metal at all in the past decade, but those albums do have entries here. Are we going to have any kind of rules on those, or is it just up to personal judgement?

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kytokinesis
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Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 5:42 pm
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 12:46 pm 
 

Zelkiiro wrote:
BastardHead wrote:
2) The rules are actually looser for the mid-year polls so basically anything with an entry on MA is eligible, lives and compilations and whatnot included.

This seems dangerous.

Incoming lists full of reissues of garbage death metal demos released in '85.


Imagine spending your time scouring the archives for some re-releases or comps just to exploit a loophole. I don't think anybody is going to bother doing that.

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Napalm_Satan
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 1:26 pm 
 

Aah my bad, I forgot about the BM poll and how the rules were more lax for that; same thing applies here being another mid-year poll. Thanks for the clarification!

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Twisted_Psychology
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 2:07 pm 
 

I voted for 20 on impulse but I can get down with the sadism that comes with having to pick ten. This should be very interesting.
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BastardHead
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 2:14 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Another question is are we essentially allowing anything that has an entry here, including bands that some consider no longer metal on more recent releases? For example, something like Katatonia is borderline, but others like Anthema aren't really metal at all in the past decade, but those albums do have entries here. Are we going to have any kind of rules on those, or is it just up to personal judgement?


Yeah, even for the main polls something is eligible as long as it has an entry on MA. I haven't heard of 80% of the albums that get voted for and it'd be ridiculous to listen to each one to see if it passes as metal or not. If you're really into current era Opeth or Anethema or something then go nuts.

kytokinesis wrote:
Imagine spending your time scouring the archives for some re-releases or comps just to exploit a loophole. I don't think anybody is going to bother doing that.


Yeah you'd be surprised how little rules-lawyers there actually are with regards to the polls. I think the worst one I ever got was a demo from 1985 that wasn't released until 2018 getting a vote for Debut of the Year, a category specifically meant to highlight new talent, and even then it was from a very trusted user who probably just couldn't think of anything else since 2018 was so thoroughly dominated by veteran acts in that particular poll.
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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 3:07 pm 
 

^Sounds like Shelton Chastain!

I prefer voting for 10 albums. A larger ballot is more likely contribute to an infinitely large rando corner than it is to make the end results better or more comprehensive.

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 4:05 pm 
 

BastardHead wrote:
I think the worst one I ever got was a demo from 1985 that wasn't released until 2018 getting a vote for Debut of the Year, a category specifically meant to highlight new talent, and even then it was from a very trusted user who probably just couldn't think of anything else since 2018 was so thoroughly dominated by veteran acts in that particular poll.


I just figured you would discard that one if it wasn't allowed. Definitely wouldn't have protested if that one was left out.

I don't really pay as much attention as I should to all these things. If I submit one for this I definitely wouldn't do something crazy like that.
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