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draconiondevil
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:35 pm 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
draconiondevil wrote:
Yes, thrash is extreme metal. I don't really understand why this is even a debate? Because the vocals aren't growls or black metal shrieks? No blast beats? There's still double bass drumming, a cornerstone of extreme metal music, fast and aggressive riffs, often aggressive vocals. The most extreme thrash bands are heavier than most death metal and black metal imo.


No offense, but your opinion is in the minority. It's just never been considered extreme metal, and not only because of the vocals, but the general sound.

Really listen to thrash guitar and how different it sounds from death metal, black metal or grindcore guitar. It's just not the same.


I've listed reasons why thrash counts as extreme metal and you haven't been able to explain why they don't count other than "the general sound" and "it's just not the same". Care to mention anything specific?

AxeCapitol wrote:
This is truly the most pedantic debate ever. How about this. To some, Slayer is extreme. To others, not so much. Cool beans?


Yes. Welcome to the point of this thread.

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:38 pm 
 

Spiner202 wrote:
Ill-Starred Son wrote:
draconiondevil wrote:
Yes, thrash is extreme metal. I don't really understand why this is even a debate? Because the vocals aren't growls or black metal shrieks? No blast beats? There's still double bass drumming, a cornerstone of extreme metal music, fast and aggressive riffs, often aggressive vocals. The most extreme thrash bands are heavier than most death metal and black metal imo.


No offense, but your opinion is in the minority. It's just never been considered extreme metal, and not only because of the vocals, but the general sound.

Really listen to thrash guitar and how different it sounds from death metal, black metal or grindcore guitar. It's just not the same.

Can't say I agree with you at all. Thrash is way more extreme than a ton of death and black metal. The fact that those genres got away from the brutality/speed is exactly why they aren't as interesting IMO.


I don't hear MOST thrash as being more extreme than MOST death metal, and ask around this forum and look at this very thread and you will see that regardless of what you think sounds more extreme, thrash in general has not, for whatever reasons, come to be considered "extreme metal."

Even if for the sake of argument some us agreed to us it sounded more extreme, labels come to be used in a certain way over time, and by and large "extreme metal" has come to be a term for death, black, grindcore, some sludge metal, and that's mostly it.

It would be like saying that many thriller movies might be more violent than many horror movies. In fact, you might be correct. There's tons of super violent thriller movies, but stylistically they still don't fall into the category we have come to recognize as "horror movies."


Ask around here and most will agree the "extreme metal" as a defining term has been used for quite a while now and you're going to have to do some revisionism to get it to be used differently in such a way that Slayer fits in there, even if you think they are heavier than many death or black metal bands, they are not generally regarded as an "extreme metal band".

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:39 pm 
 

draconiondevil wrote:
Ill-Starred Son wrote:
draconiondevil wrote:
Yes, thrash is extreme metal. I don't really understand why this is even a debate? Because the vocals aren't growls or black metal shrieks? No blast beats? There's still double bass drumming, a cornerstone of extreme metal music, fast and aggressive riffs, often aggressive vocals. The most extreme thrash bands are heavier than most death metal and black metal imo.


No offense, but your opinion is in the minority. It's just never been considered extreme metal, and not only because of the vocals, but the general sound.

Really listen to thrash guitar and how different it sounds from death metal, black metal or grindcore guitar. It's just not the same.


I've listed reasons why thrash counts as extreme metal and you haven't been able to explain why they don't count other than "the general sound" and "it's just not the same". Care to mention anything specific?

AxeCapitol wrote:
This is truly the most pedantic debate ever. How about this. To some, Slayer is extreme. To others, not so much. Cool beans?


Yes. Welcome to the point of this thread.




I would rather show you examples than name the differences as it's more about sound than semantics.

I think it depends on the bands being mentioned, and there are examples of "extreme" thrash bands that we'd agree on like kreator, Sodom, etc. Hellhammer and Celtic Frost aren't so much thrash, but they generally count as extreme. It's got more to do with style than just heaviness alone.

I'll be back in a minute and you can hear the differences.

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:55 pm 
 

draconiondevil wrote:
Ill-Starred Son wrote:
draconiondevil wrote:
Yes, thrash is extreme metal. I don't really understand why this is even a debate? Because the vocals aren't growls or black metal shrieks? No blast beats? There's still double bass drumming, a cornerstone of extreme metal music, fast and aggressive riffs, often aggressive vocals. The most extreme thrash bands are heavier than most death metal and black metal imo.


No offense, but your opinion is in the minority. It's just never been considered extreme metal, and not only because of the vocals, but the general sound.

Really listen to thrash guitar and how different it sounds from death metal, black metal or grindcore guitar. It's just not the same.


I've listed reasons why thrash counts as extreme metal and you haven't been able to explain why they don't count other than "the general sound" and "it's just not the same". Care to mention anything specific?

AxeCapitol wrote:
This is truly the most pedantic debate ever. How about this. To some, Slayer is extreme. To others, not so much. Cool beans?


Yes. Welcome to the point of this thread.



I like Slayer and always have, though they have become a bit standard as the band "everyone likes" with few people who listen to Slayer and Metallica ever venturing further into metal, but anyways, listen to South of Heaven as an example of thrash, which incidentally was my introduction to Slayer:

https://youtu.be/XtLvlaGJJEU


Now listen to this Origin song:

https://youtu.be/hxg_WbuZQFo


Listen to this Exodus song as an example of thrash (great band again, and I love this song about the 1980 New Mexico prison riot ): https://youtu.be/PqeRSFwWep0


Now listen to this Mayhem song: https://youtu.be/e7jResTj9qc


Now listen to this Anthrax song as another example of thrash: https://youtu.be/XphUURIAx5g


Now listen to this Black Curse song as an example of modern black/death and the kind of band everyone would agree is "extreme": https://youtu.be/nOuL1S2rKkA


Now, if you want an example of a THRASH song I'd personally consider extreme, listen to this Kreator song and note the differences in how it sounds generally from those examples of thrash before and why some might consider it "extreme": https://youtu.be/oOhSoabPtSY



Listen to the vocals of course, but also listen to the thickness of the guitar in all the "extreme" examples. Listen to the general atmosphere. Listen to the drums. Just listen to everything. I'm not good at describing music terminology.

I mean, we can just agree to disagree if you don't see what I'm saying and that's fine with me, but this is the best I can do in an explanation of "extreme metal."

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des91
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:15 pm 
 

Forgot where it was said in the response to my previous comment but again: Slayer’s Reign in Blood is extreme metal. Araya’s vocals are just as intense as Kyle Thomas from Exhorder, who many consider to be extreme metal.

Now South of Heave/Seasons/SNM and all the rest of their stuff? I’d say no. So the majority of Slayer’s catalog is not EM but Hell/Reign are for me. Maybe Reign’s ultra clear production sways people to hearing it differently but it just brings out the clearness of the instrumental savagery all the more.

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hells_unicorn
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:31 pm 
 

I'm probably going to end up recapping the same point made by several previous posters, but I'd argue that thrash metal is a part-timer sub-genre that will fit into either mainline or extreme metal depending on the band, or in some cases individual albums or songs. If I were going to identify a thrash metal band that stands directly in the middle and splits the difference between traditional and extreme metal influences, it would be Destruction. As such, any band that exhibits a slightly harsher and more dissonant sound than them, which would include a number of more viciously aggressive bands like Sepultura, Kreator, Sodom, Demolition Hammer, Morbid Saint, Sarcofago and Slayer. In addition, certain individual albums such as Dark Angel's "Darkness Descends" and Infernäl Mäjesty "None Shall Defy" would make the cut in my opinion, and although it isn't a very good album, Testament's "Demonic" also passes for extreme metal. For me, it all breaks down to how fast, dark and dissonant the presentation happens to be, and to a degree the lyrical content plays a role in that.

By contrast, there are some pretty blatant cases of thrash metal bands checking none of the extreme metal boxes, such as the vast majority of New York area thrash metal bands like Overkill, Anthrax, Nuclear Assault, E-X-E and Toxik, most of the mainline Bay Area bands (Heathen, Megadeth, Exodus, et cetera) and less evil sounding Teutonic acts like Tankard, Vendetta and Assassin.
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AxeCapitol
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:14 am 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
AxeCapitol wrote:
This is truly the most pedantic debate ever. How about this. To some, Slayer is extreme. To others, not so much. Cool beans?


"Extreme metal" has now been an actual label within the metal community for probably about 20 years.

It's no more a "pathetic debate" than it would be to debate whether or not certain paintings count as abstract or surrealist or whether certain movies count as thrillers or horror.

If you are ever going to use any kind of label ever it's not a pathetic debate really, and it's not really just interpretation when people eventually get to the point where they use those labels in a consistent way and have been doing so for over a decade.


Do you know how to read? Doubtful as the word “pathetic” does not show up anywhere in my comments yet you quoted it, parenthetically, twice. Strange. Projecting much? Surely you know the difference between pedantic and pathetic. And you would know they have two different meanings. Way to miss
the point completely.

Anyway! Happy thanksgiving! Hope it’ll be an extreme one and not pathetic!

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:42 pm 
 

AxeCapitol wrote:
Ill-Starred Son wrote:
AxeCapitol wrote:
This is truly the most pedantic debate ever. How about this. To some, Slayer is extreme. To others, not so much. Cool beans?


"Extreme metal" has now been an actual label within the metal community for probably about 20 years.

It's no more a "pathetic debate" than it would be to debate whether or not certain paintings count as abstract or surrealist or whether certain movies count as thrillers or horror.

If you are ever going to use any kind of label ever it's not a pathetic debate really, and it's not really just interpretation when people eventually get to the point where they use those labels in a consistent way and have been doing so for over a decade.


Do you know how to read? Doubtful as the word “pathetic” does not show up anywhere in my comments yet you quoted it, parenthetically, twice. Strange. Projecting much? Surely you know the difference between pedantic and pathetic. And you would know they have two different meanings. Way to miss
the point completely.

Anyway! Happy thanksgiving! Hope it’ll be an extreme one and not pathetic!


Yeah, I read that quickly and saw pathetic when you did say pedantic, and yes, I would agree that this a pedantic debate.

Whatever.

Have a good thanksgiving as well.

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Bingewolf
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:22 am 
 

Exhorder is not "extreme metal." Thank you.

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Smalley
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:45 am 
 

My take on it is to acknowledge that "extremity" in Metal or just music in general (or any other art form, of course) is all subjective, and relative to what you're comparing it too; I mean, even the most melodic Metal can sound too extreme to a non-metalhead just by virtue of it still being Metal, and if you played Maiden alongside Simon & Garfunkel, even they would sound extreme by comparison (Maiden I mean, not S&G). But, just speaking for myself personally in a Metal context, if Traditional, Power, and Glam Metal are some of the least extreme sub-genres, and Grindcore, Death, and Black Metal are some of the most extreme, than it makes sense to place Thrash somewhere inbetween the two, because outside of certain outliers like Reign, the majority of Thrash Metal (IMO) isn't 100% extreme; if you anyone wants to nitpick that and say Thrash is still closer to extreme Metal than it is to the non-extreme stuff, than feel free. Me saying that most Thrash isn't full-on extreme Metal isn't some sort of insult that it isn't "heavy enough", and just because it isn't 100% extreme for me doesn't mean saying it's not extreme at all; it's a spectrum, not a binary.

Anyway, as for other people's opinions on this, I think it makes a lot of sense that a lot of them draw the extreme line somewhere between the majority of Thrash and Death/Black Metal, because the harsher vocals of the latter genres tend to be a hard "no-go" for the vast majority of the public; I mean, while the Metallica record you're most likely to hear anything off of is obviously The Black Album, "Master Of Puppets" is still accessible enough to be heard once every blue moon on terrestrial radio, even at over 8 minutes long... but, on the other hand, I've never, ever heard any Cannibal Corpse on my local stations, and almost surely never will, unless one of the DJs succeeds in going wildly off format for a couple of minutes at 4AM in the morning one day, before getting canned. And the general record sales back this up, since no Death Metal album has ever been certified so much as Gold (let alone Platinum or Diamond), and if you tally up all the sales for the most successful Death Metal band in total (which is Corpse, of course), they barely broke the half million mark; I mean, it was considered a big deal for Covenant to reportedly break the 150,000 sales mark, and the videos for "God Of Emptiness" & "The Philosopher" to be mocked on Beavis & Butthead, so growled vocals are obviously just a deal-breaker for the vast majority of people out there.
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Dungeon_Vic
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:22 am 
 

Thrash metal has always been the crossroads genre for me (and my favorite), the bridge between trad metal and any extreme or experimental form of metal and as such I can live with younger people thinking it's not extreme metal (with the exception of the Slayer and above crowd). To me it's really an extreme metal genre like Sabbath and 70s Priest are heavy metal.

To the general population it most definitely is an extreme genre though, no question about it.
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:10 am 
 

draconiondevil wrote:
Yes, thrash is extreme metal. I don't really understand why this is even a debate? Because the vocals aren't growls or black metal shrieks? No blast beats? There's still double bass drumming, a cornerstone of extreme metal music, fast and aggressive riffs, often aggressive vocals. The most extreme thrash bands are heavier than most death metal and black metal imo.


That's pretty much true of songs like these, but I wouldn't call them extreme metal, though the BG song in particular gets pretty close in moments for a speed/power record.







I think a good chunk of the vocals need to be non-melodic, and often there needs to be some element of non-diatonic riffing/soloing, particularly the less harsh the vocals are. That's part of why a lot of the post-2000 melodic death metal is controversial as to its "death" status, since there are a lot more clean vocals and there is not generally much chromaticism in the riffing.

AxeCapitol wrote:
This is truly the most pedantic debate ever. How about this. To some, Slayer is extreme. To others, not so much. Cool beans?


You are going to be in for a rough time here if this is going to be your level of involvement in these discussions. The whole site is pretty much built on a certain level of pedantry in terms of what constitutes "metal" and what doesn't, and how the nuances of subgenre distinctions work.

hells_unicorn wrote:
If I were going to identify a thrash metal band that stands directly in the middle and splits the difference between traditional and extreme metal influences, it would be Destruction.


I've said before that I consider the line to be Slayer (maybe particularly RIB and HA as someone else mentioned), but I can grok why someone could place it slightly differently. I don't know if it possibly has to do with age/when someone got into metal or how much extreme metal they listen to compared to other subgenres. As I mentioned on the first page, I think the vocal style is the biggest dichotomy, but instrumentation also factors in. Part of it is that I know numerous guys who are/were into 80s thrash and liked Slayer, but they dislike anything that is overtly growly, as that's just too far for them.

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draconiondevil
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:13 am 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
draconiondevil wrote:
Yes, thrash is extreme metal. I don't really understand why this is even a debate? Because the vocals aren't growls or black metal shrieks? No blast beats? There's still double bass drumming, a cornerstone of extreme metal music, fast and aggressive riffs, often aggressive vocals. The most extreme thrash bands are heavier than most death metal and black metal imo.


That's pretty much true of songs like these, but I wouldn't call them extreme metal, though the BG song in particular gets pretty close in moments for a speed/power record.







I think a good chunk of the vocals need to be non-melodic, and often there needs to be some element of non-diatonic riffing/soloing, particularly the less harsh the vocals are. That's part of why a lot of the post-2000 melodic death metal is controversial as to its "death" status, since there are a lot more clean vocals and there is not generally much chromaticism in the riffing.

AxeCapitol wrote:
This is truly the most pedantic debate ever. How about this. To some, Slayer is extreme. To others, not so much. Cool beans?


You are going to be in for a rough time here if this is going to be your level of involvement in these discussions. The whole site is pretty much built on a certain level of pedantry in terms of what constitutes "metal" and what doesn't, and how the nuances of subgenre distinctions work.

hells_unicorn wrote:
If I were going to identify a thrash metal band that stands directly in the middle and splits the difference between traditional and extreme metal influences, it would be Destruction.


I've said before that I consider the line to be Slayer (maybe particularly RIB and HA as someone else mentioned), but I can grok why someone could place it slightly differently. I don't know if it possibly has to do with age/when someone got into metal or how much extreme metal they listen to compared to other subgenres. As I mentioned on the first page, I think the vocal style is the biggest dichotomy, but instrumentation also factors in. Part of it is that I know numerous guys who are/were into 80s thrash and liked Slayer, but they dislike anything that is overtly growly, as that's just too far for them.



I was going to refrain from posting again because obviously most people don't agree with me but think of it this way. If you listen to a few metal songs per year from when it started in the 70's to now, the turning point for when things start getting more extreme is when thrash came around about 1983. It represents the turning point for metal when it changed from just being a slightly heavier or more aggressive style of rock music to being another beast entirely. Death and black metal were HIGHLY influenced by thrash and many things that we consider to be elements of those genres come from thrash. Thrash metal has much more in common with genres that everybody considers extreme than it does with traditional heavy metal or power metal.

Of course there is some nuance to it. Perhaps a particularly light thrash album like Anthrax's Spreading the Disease isn't extreme metal, but listen to Metal Militia by Metallica from 1983 and tell me that it sounds more like Iron Maiden than it does like Possessed.

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AxeCapitol
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:25 am 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
AxeCapitol wrote:
Ill-Starred Son wrote:
This is truly the most pedantic debate ever. How about this. To some, Slayer is extreme. To others, not so much. Cool beans?


"Extreme metal" has now been an actual label within the metal community for probably about 20 years.

It's no more a "pathetic debate" than it would be to debate whether or not certain paintings count as abstract or surrealist or whether certain movies count as thrillers or horror.

If you are ever going to use any kind of label ever it's not a pathetic debate really, and it's not really just interpretation when people eventually get to the point where they use those labels in a consistent way and have been doing so for over a decade.


Do you know how to read? Doubtful as the word “pathetic” does not show up anywhere in my comments yet you quoted it, parenthetically, twice. Strange. Projecting much? Surely you know the difference between pedantic and pathetic. And you would know they have two different meanings. Way to miss
the point completely.

Anyway! Happy thanksgiving! Hope it’ll be an extreme one and not pathetic!


Yeah, I read that quickly and saw pathetic when you did say pedantic, and yes, I would agree that this a pedantic debate.

Whatever.

Have a good thanksgiving as well.[/quote]

All good and apologies for the harsh tone of my post. The wife dragged me to the in-laws for Turkey Day and have been in a bad mood. Ha. (And by ha I mean lol - not hell awaits - which i still maintain is extreme!)

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:31 am 
 

^^
Part of it to me as well is palatability to the mainstream. Even some of Metallica's faster songs can get featured in Hollywood movies and no one is bothered. At this point to them it's just dad rock on steroids. Compare Cannibal Corpse's inclusion in Ace Ventura, and the reaction from "normies" is going to be one of disgust, even almost three decades later. Slayer can play on Jimmy Kimmel. Morbid Angel cannot. The audience is much more niche for extreme metal. You're right that's it's a turning point, but this to me is what makes it a border genre, where some bands in it are extreme, and some aren't.

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des91
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:44 pm 
 

Definitely agree with a previous poster who said “the feel” of the music is a huge part of whether it’s EM or not. But RIB, whenever I listen to it, just totally feels that way to me. It’s just relentless fucking pummeling the whole time, similar to Darkness Descends. That record is very similar to RIB in that it has a more yelling vocal style but it still feels extreme because of the instrumentation.

But putting on a Slayer record besides RIB/HA just feels different for me. Feels more safe, relatively of course, like a person who hates all other EM can still like it.

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AxeCapitol
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:29 pm 
 

Hell Awaits (the song) also has quasi growled vocals (during the “chorus”). Plus the “sunioj” at the beginning is creepy as hell and sounds like something you would hear on a raw BM track.

There is also tremolo picking on the album (Kill Again) which as we know is a standard of extreme music - specifically BM.

Last - the raw atmosphere combined with deeply satanic imagery, artwork, and lyrics.

It’s all there folks. HA is extreme.

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joppek
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:38 pm 
 

AxeCapitol wrote:
There is also tremolo picking on the album (Kill Again) which as we know is a standard of extreme music - specifically BM.


i guess dick dale is what david vincent would call "too extreme"
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AxeCapitol
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:45 pm 
 

joppek wrote:
AxeCapitol wrote:
There is also tremolo picking on the album (Kill Again) which as we know is a standard of extreme music - specifically BM.


i guess dick dale is what david vincent would call "too extreme"


Yes. I hear HA - I immediately think of surf music. Nailed it.

Ps were you ever on the Tez boards?

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joppek
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:50 pm 
 

AxeCapitol wrote:
Ps were you ever on the Tez boards?


never heard of it
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Nocturnal_Evil
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:19 pm 
 

Yes and no. The big four and the overwhelming majority of American thrash (especially in the 80s) are not extreme. Hell, I don't consider Slayer extreme. But as soon as you get into the territory of Kreator and Sodom's early work as well as American stuff like Opprobrium/Incubus and Morbid Saint, Sadus etc... then it becomes extreme. It has to do mainly with the drum and vocal intensity for me.
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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:48 pm 
 

Nocturnal_Evil wrote:
Yes and no. The big four and the overwhelming majority of American thrash (especially in the 80s) are not extreme. Hell, I don't consider Slayer extreme. But as soon as you get into the territory of Kreator and Sodom's early work as well as American stuff like Opprobrium/Incubus and Morbid Saint, Sadus etc... then it becomes extreme. It has to do mainly with the drum and vocal intensity for me.


This is still how I feel.

I can understand why some might feel Slayer is extreme, but I don't feel they really are. If you ask me for extreme thrash I will answer Kreator and Sodom...MAYBE Venom perhaps, Morbid Saint most likely, early Sepultura, the black-thrash/death-thrash type bands, as well as early Hellhammer, perhaps maybe Celtic Frost also but in a different way.

I think part of the problem for me, especially with Reign in Blood, is how it's been shoved down my throat so much.

I have come to like Reign in Blood far much less than I ever used to because of how much I've had to listen to it, and now prefer even later albums like South of Heaven, though preference really shouldn't matter, but subjectively it has effected how i think of Slayer and much of their material.

Perhaps the earlier albums though like Hell Awaits or Show No Mercy I might make an exception for, but I'm still leaning towards not.

Just like one poster said the defining line where metal got heavier than NWOBHM was with thrash, I feel the defining line/lines where it REALLY got extreme are death, black and grindcore. Just like one guy said, Metallica (at least old Metallica) was thrash and you can see them play on some kind of talkshow, but not Cannibal Corpse.

I guess this is why we see thrash (and also groove metal as well) as being borderline.

I remember about a year ago I made a similar thread asking if Pantera was considered extreme metal and the overwhelming consensus was NO.

I would agree with that, BUT...Pantera at their best on Cowboys, Vulgar, Far Beyond etc were VERY aggressive. So if we aren't considering them extreme metal then i don't see Slayer as extreme either as I don't necessarily think Slayer is heavier than the heaviest Pantera.

I really reserve extreme metal for those genres that MOSTLY have growling vocals, though as Lithojazzosphere said, it's also in the riffing.

I don't see most melodic death metal as being extreme either.

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Spiner202
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:11 pm 
 

I feel like you are just deciding what's extreme based on what you like. You can tell the posters that are older/have a better understanding of the historical context of metal tend to label most thrash as extreme metal.

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MetlaNZ
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:39 pm 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
I think part of the problem for me, especially with Reign in Blood, is how it's been shoved down my throat so much.

I have come to like Reign in Blood far much less than I ever used to because of how much I've had to listen to it

Have you no freewill? Are you being detained in Guantanamo Bay and they're trying to break you?

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Bingewolf
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:41 pm 
 

Spiner202 wrote:
I feel like you are just deciding what's extreme based on what you like. You can tell the posters that are older/have a better understanding of the historical context of metal tend to label most thrash as extreme metal.


To me, it's the exact opposite. The older people here continue to say that "this was extreme in my day" -- and, frankly, Slayer is not an extreme metal band. Put on Slayer and then put on Napalm Death after and tell me what is extreme.

I'm also one of those people who doesn't even like thrash because of how cheesy it can be. So you can call me biased. BUT, extreme metal was born with grindcore and came to include death metal, black metal, etc. It seems to me that those who make the argument that thrash is extreme are mostly saying "well, Slayer was extreme back then" - and that's not indicative of where we are today. We all know Metallica was extreme back then - but now it's you will hear "Jump In The Fire," "Whiplash," and "Seek and Destroy" on the radio.

To be honest, it doesn't matter what USED to be extreme... You have to look at what is "extreme" now and base the music on that.

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:32 am 
 

MetlaNZ wrote:
Ill-Starred Son wrote:
I think part of the problem for me, especially with Reign in Blood, is how it's been shoved down my throat so much.

I have come to like Reign in Blood far much less than I ever used to because of how much I've had to listen to it

Have you no freewill? Are you being detained in Guantanamo Bay and they're trying to break you?


LOL. If they were trying to break me they'd play something like a lot worse than Slayer. I mean it's just on a lot around me. Like for example, there's a bar I like and I'm thankful for the fact that they even play metal there, but if someone is playing metal on their jukebox then something off Reign in Blood, particularly Angel of Death, will be played at least twice that day. Sometimes I'll put on the metal station on music choice on my TV because it's cool they even have one, and Angel of Death will eventually come on.

It's a classic album of course, but it's overplayed. I feel that Slayer in general is overplayed, as is Metallica.

We all know those guys who mention how much they love Slayer or Metallica every chance they get but who rarely listen to any other metal, so while on the one hand I'm thankful that any metal at all gets any kind of mainstream exposure, there are some songs, bands or albums that I just hear way more than I want to.


Last edited by Ill-Starred Son on Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:36 am 
 

Spiner202 wrote:
I feel like you are just deciding what's extreme based on what you like. You can tell the posters that are older/have a better understanding of the historical context of metal tend to label most thrash as extreme metal.


If you're talking to me that's not true.

I feel I have a very clear position on what I feel does and doesn't count as extreme, but I really don't need to go on explaining it ad naseum because you probably won't agree.

I'm honestly probably older than you think, seeing as I'm 41 (for better or worse LOL), and I know plenty about "the historical context of metal." I listen to metal and heavy music from all decades and most sub-genres.

Thrash and Groove metal are obviously in between, heavier than traditional and most NWOBHM but generally speaking not usually as heavy or extreme as death metal, black metal, grindcore, some sludge, etc.

If in doubt, unless we are talking about a fair amount of melodic death metal (which many of us have expressed we consider to be less on the extreme side), if we mention your standard old school, brutal or technical death metal, most black metal, most grindcore, a fair amount of sludge, etc, it will usually be agreed upon to fall into the "extreme" category, whereas with genres like thrash or groove it will depend more on which bands we are talking about.


Last edited by Ill-Starred Son on Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:39 am 
 

Bingewolf wrote:
Spiner202 wrote:
I feel like you are just deciding what's extreme based on what you like. You can tell the posters that are older/have a better understanding of the historical context of metal tend to label most thrash as extreme metal.


To me, it's the exact opposite. The older people here continue to say that "this was extreme in my day" -- and, frankly, Slayer is not an extreme metal band. Put on Slayer and then put on Napalm Death after and tell me what is extreme.

I'm also one of those people who doesn't even like thrash because of how cheesy it can be. So you can call me biased. BUT, extreme metal was born with grindcore and came to include death metal, black metal, etc. It seems to me that those who make the argument that thrash is extreme are mostly saying "well, Slayer was extreme back then" - and that's not indicative of where we are today. We all know Metallica was extreme back then - but now it's you will hear "Jump In The Fire," "Whiplash," and "Seek and Destroy" on the radio.

To be honest, it doesn't matter what USED to be extreme... You have to look at what is "extreme" now and base the music on that.



This is 100% how I feel with the only exception being that I do like thrash, but not nearly so much as the other genres you mentioned.

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des91
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:35 am 
 

A bit off topic but it always surprised me a tad how little of this forum is really into Thrash. Like, I guess any kind of Thrash, from traditional to the “brutal” kind, crossover and everything in between. I wonder if there was a poll here on favorite sub genres, where it would rank. My guess would be behind both Death and Black by a big margin, possibly even behind Traditional and Doom. I think it would beat Power Metal.

Thrash was and still is my favorite one, both the traditional and more extreme style. And the reason? Because like lots of us, our first exposure to Metal was Metallica. Particularly their 80s records. It sounded amazing so I wanted to find something similar, so using mid/late 2000s internet, I found Megadeth next. Then the rest of the Big Four. Maiden and Priest came next and I loved them, but didn’t feel interested in more of their style. I liked the speed and aggression of Thrash. Aggression. That’s the key. It’s the hallmark of all Thrash and while Black/Death can be more intense than some Thrash, I wouldn’t call it more “aggressive”. It can be darker, cavernous, colder, more inhuman, even more chaotic but I wouldn’t call it more aggressive.

Anyway, I discovered all the second tier Thrash bands after Maiden/Priest and it was just my calling haha. I soon found Death Metal which I liked a lot and still do but not as much as Thrash. Not into Black Metal outside of a handful of albums though.

So yeah, I just sort of thought there would be more people here who had my same journey to getting into all the Metal subgenres but maybe that’s me being ignorant lol. Maybe it’s because I’m American and the most popular Thrash bands are American? Possibly haha.

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Smalley
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Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:06 am
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:28 am 
 

Bingewolf wrote:
Spiner202 wrote:
I feel like you are just deciding what's extreme based on what you like. You can tell the posters that are older/have a better understanding of the historical context of metal tend to label most thrash as extreme metal.


To me, it's the exact opposite. The older people here continue to say that "this was extreme in my day" -- and, frankly, Slayer is not an extreme metal band. Put on Slayer and then put on Napalm Death after and tell me what is extreme.

I'm also one of those people who doesn't even like thrash because of how cheesy it can be. So you can call me biased. BUT, extreme metal was born with grindcore and came to include death metal, black metal, etc. It seems to me that those who make the argument that thrash is extreme are mostly saying "well, Slayer was extreme back then" - and that's not indicative of where we are today. We all know Metallica was extreme back then - but now it's you will hear "Jump In The Fire," "Whiplash," and "Seek and Destroy" on the radio.

To be honest, it doesn't matter what USED to be extreme... You have to look at what is "extreme" now and base the music on that.
Agreed; as far as I'm concerned, the only way that what was extreme back in the day would still be relevant is if it still was back in the day. But, it's not nineteen eighty-whatever, it's 2021, time machines don't exist, and Metal, like time, only ever flows forward, so you have to look at where the genre has settled in the present day, not back then. I know Ride The Lightning seemed extreme in '84, especially when compared to most of the Metal that came before it, but we've still lived in a post-Napaln Death world for decades now, so we can't just ignore that.
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Boychev
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:36 am 
 

Spiner202 wrote:
To be honest, it doesn't matter what USED to be extreme... You have to look at what is "extreme" now and base the music on that.


I'm not sure about this. Did Scream Bloody Gore stop being extreme the moment Effigy of the Forgotten was released?

Extreme just means a certain kind of excess to me. Say, Metallica's songs, while they can sometimes be technically challenging to play (e. g. try to downpick Master of Puppets in the tempo of the original), pretty much stay in the range of normal human emotions - just on the darker side of them. Death and black metal on the other hand are made to sound inhuman and insane - there's a reason why the vocals have to sound this way, and why conventional melodies and songwriting techniques have to be avoided in those genres, and why the lyrical subject matter goes from merely being on the darker side of life to absolutely cartoonish excess. So going back to thrash, I think albums like Hell Awaits and Pleasure to Kill definitely cross that line of batshit craziness, while Megadeth, Metallica, Testament, etc don't.

On that note: does stuff like melodic death, melodic black, and the more weepy kind of doomdeath like MDB count as extreme metal?

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:27 am 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
I don't see most melodic death metal as being extreme either.


That's a complicated one. Musically yes some of them are tamer than thrash, but I think the vocal style alone makes them extreme, but in many cases just barely over the line. You can occasionally hear Metallica, Slayer, Pantera, Slipknot and others in mainstream contexts. Even if they were more popular you wouldn't see that with melodic death because the vocals are just too harsh for casual listeners to handle. This is why every now and then I have to rant about some of the modern ones having the "melodic groove metal" tag as being pretty silly. In no universe is this like Pantera, just milder and mellower.

Spoiler: show


Boychev wrote:
On that note: does stuff like...the more weepy kind of doomdeath like MDB count as extreme metal?


The crux for me is whether it has a significant amount of harsh vocals. Other musical elements can certainly tip the scale as well in marginal cases, but I don't know if we'd call a band with the instrumentation of Cannibal Corpse but the clean vocals of say, Anette Olzon, to be extreme metal. It'd be an interesting discussion. There are a decent number of people who call normal doom metal "extreme" (I don't really agree), so mixing it with death should almost certainly make it at least mildly extreme.

des91 wrote:
A bit off topic but it always surprised me a tad how little of this forum is really into Thrash. Like, I guess any kind of Thrash, from traditional to the “brutal” kind, crossover and everything in between. I wonder if there was a poll here on favorite sub genres, where it would rank. My guess would be behind both Death and Black by a big margin, possibly even behind Traditional and Doom. I think it would beat Power Metal.

Thrash was and still is my favorite one, both the traditional and more extreme style. And the reason? Because like lots of us, our first exposure to Metal was Metallica...

So yeah, I just sort of thought there would be more people here who had my same journey to getting into all the Metal subgenres but maybe that’s me being ignorant lol.


I'm not sure what you're expecting. It's not the most popular genre (that's almost certainly black metal, then probably death), but even being in the top 5 would still be fairly high, that beats out stoner, sludge, electronic, industrial, experimental, avant-garde, folk, viking, pagan, gothic, grindcore, groove, metalcore, deathcore, progressive, speed, and symphonic. We just had a 4-page thread on ranking classic thrash albums last month. There's currently an ongoing 4-page thread on the latest Exodus album on the first page. To the extent that it's no longer the regnant genre, that's just true in the metal world at large, it isn't the 80s anymore, and not as much thrash comes out each year as some other genres. I too found Metallica early on and have an affinity for that sort of thing, but my interests have spread out into other concentrated areas over time, some of which overlap with the forum, and some of which don't.

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draconiondevil
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:08 am 
 

I mean I listen to Cannibal Corpse a lot and their stuff doesn't sound that extreme to me anymore so I guess they're not extreme metal either?

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21stCenturySkippyMan
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:34 am 
 

Depends on the band. Sodom, Demolition Hammer, Sadus, Sepultura, Kreator, Slayer: Yes. Metallica, Tankard, Razor, Anthrax, Exodus, Carnivore: No.
It can be hard to draw the line sometimes, but Extreme Metal has a dark, sadistic and/or unhinged feel to it. The former bands whilst being Thrash clearly fall into that more sinister realm IMO. However, the latter bands have a sound that resembles a more punky, "human-like" anger/outrage and thus cannot be considered extreme metal.

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AxeCapitol
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:48 am 
 

21stCenturySkippyMan wrote:
Depends on the band. Sodom, Demolition Hammer, Sadus, Sepultura, Kreator, Slayer: Yes. Metallica, Tankard, Razor, Anthrax, Exodus, Carnivore: No.
It can be hard to draw the line sometimes, but Extreme Metal has a dark, sadistic and/or unhinged feel to it. The former bands whilst being Thrash clearly fall into that more sinister realm IMO. However, the latter bands have a sound that resembles a more punky, "human-like" anger/outrage and thus cannot be considered extreme metal.


You had me til you put Carnivore as No. vehemently disagree there.

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:43 pm 
 

des91 wrote:
A bit off topic but it always surprised me a tad how little of this forum is really into Thrash. Like, I guess any kind of Thrash, from traditional to the “brutal” kind, crossover and everything in between. I wonder if there was a poll here on favorite sub genres, where it would rank. My guess would be behind both Death and Black by a big margin, possibly even behind Traditional and Doom. I think it would beat Power Metal.

Thrash was and still is my favorite one, both the traditional and more extreme style. And the reason? Because like lots of us, our first exposure to Metal was Metallica. Particularly their 80s records. It sounded amazing so I wanted to find something similar, so using mid/late 2000s internet, I found Megadeth next. Then the rest of the Big Four. Maiden and Priest came next and I loved them, but didn’t feel interested in more of their style. I liked the speed and aggression of Thrash. Aggression. That’s the key. It’s the hallmark of all Thrash and while Black/Death can be more intense than some Thrash, I wouldn’t call it more “aggressive”. It can be darker, cavernous, colder, more inhuman, even more chaotic but I wouldn’t call it more aggressive.

Anyway, I discovered all the second tier Thrash bands after Maiden/Priest and it was just my calling haha. I soon found Death Metal which I liked a lot and still do but not as much as Thrash. Not into Black Metal outside of a handful of albums though.

So yeah, I just sort of thought there would be more people here who had my same journey to getting into all the Metal subgenres but maybe that’s me being ignorant lol. Maybe it’s because I’m American and the most popular Thrash bands are American? Possibly haha.


Yeah, I was thinking more about how I feel about thrash last night.

The thing is, I absolutely DO like thrash. I like all the typical thrash bands and their classic albums, obviously the big 4's best stuff, the great German thrash bands like Sodom, Kreator, Destruction, also Coroner, Exodus, (never listened to enough Testament or Overkill honestly, those 2 I should catch up on), Razor in particular was always a favorite of mine, Death Angel, Dark Angel etc.

But nevertheless, I barely ever really listen to straight up thrash. BLACK-THRASH, (Sodom, Venom, Infernal Majesty, Sarcofago, Poison from Germany, Slaugther from Canada, Kreator, etc.) especially in the form of 1st wave black metal is a favorite of mine, but I sort of see it as a somewhat separate genre, or early death-thrash like Possessed or the point where the genre was forming.

But straight up thrash? It was really a gateway genre for me as a teenager till I discovered more extreme metal like death metal, black metal and grindcore, and then my time spent listening to thrash dropped dramatically.

Most times I would want to listen to thrash I'd just prefer to listen to death metal. While obviously not exactly the same, in many ways death metal (depending on the band) is similar to heavier thrash.

So yeah...it's pretty rare that I'd choose to listen to thrash over death, black, grindcore or certain other genres, but nevertheless I do have a true appreciation for it. There's few metal sub-genres that I don't like, with power metal being the one exception where I only like a few bands, unless you count glam or something like that which I don't like.


Last edited by Ill-Starred Son on Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:55 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Ill-Starred Son wrote:
I don't see most melodic death metal as being extreme either.


That's a complicated one. Musically yes some of them are tamer than thrash, but I think the vocal style alone makes them extreme, but in many cases just barely over the line. You can occasionally hear Metallica, Slayer, Pantera, Slipknot and others in mainstream contexts. Even if they were more popular you wouldn't see that with melodic death because the vocals are just too harsh for casual listeners to handle. This is why every now and then I have to rant about some of the modern ones having the "melodic groove metal" tag as being pretty silly. In no universe is this like Pantera, just milder and mellower.

Spoiler: show


Boychev wrote:
On that note: does stuff like...the more weepy kind of doomdeath like MDB count as extreme metal?


The crux for me is whether it has a significant amount of harsh vocals. Other musical elements can certainly tip the scale as well in marginal cases, but I don't know if we'd call a band with the instrumentation of Cannibal Corpse but the clean vocals of say, Anette Olzon, to be extreme metal. It'd be an interesting discussion. There are a decent number of people who call normal doom metal "extreme" (I don't really agree), so mixing it with death should almost certainly make it at least mildly extreme.

des91 wrote:
A bit off topic but it always surprised me a tad how little of this forum is really into Thrash. Like, I guess any kind of Thrash, from traditional to the “brutal” kind, crossover and everything in between. I wonder if there was a poll here on favorite sub genres, where it would rank. My guess would be behind both Death and Black by a big margin, possibly even behind Traditional and Doom. I think it would beat Power Metal.

Thrash was and still is my favorite one, both the traditional and more extreme style. And the reason? Because like lots of us, our first exposure to Metal was Metallica...

So yeah, I just sort of thought there would be more people here who had my same journey to getting into all the Metal subgenres but maybe that’s me being ignorant lol.


I'm not sure what you're expecting. It's not the most popular genre (that's almost certainly black metal, then probably death), but even being in the top 5 would still be fairly high, that beats out stoner, sludge, electronic, industrial, experimental, avant-garde, folk, viking, pagan, gothic, grindcore, groove, metalcore, deathcore, progressive, speed, and symphonic. We just had a 4-page thread on ranking classic thrash albums last month. There's currently an ongoing 4-page thread on the latest Exodus album on the first page. To the extent that it's no longer the regnant genre, that's just true in the metal world at large, it isn't the 80s anymore, and not as much thrash comes out each year as some other genres. I too found Metallica early on and have an affinity for that sort of thing, but my interests have spread out into other concentrated areas over time, some of which overlap with the forum, and some of which don't.



I would still consider Cannibal Corpse, even with clean vocals, to be extreme, as odd as the idea is to imagine.

The way the guitar and overall instrumentation sounds, it's still so thick and heavy, I'd call it extreme.

And off topic, but no offense, you just named several supposed sub-genres that I don't even consider to be real sub-genres and was wondering if these really are agreed upon sub-genres.

Electronic metal? What bands fall under that label? I've never heard of it. We've got industrial, but electronic?

Pagan metal? Is that really distinctly different from viking, folk, and black? What bands are Pagan metal that couldn't be called any of those? I don't see it as a real sub-genre.

Experimental metal? I don't see that as legit either. It's FAR too vague. Even Avant-garde is kind of the throw away genre where there are some similarities between bands but between others there are none.

Symphonic is more a sub-genre of power metal, as stoner is a sub-genre of doom, but I guess they're legit genres.

Speed metal has always seemed to be the same as thrash, but I know that's an ongoing debate.

So I don't know, maybe it's just me, but you have named a bunch of genres that are questionable as to whether or not they really exist, and some others that fall into sub-sub genre categories which are more legit.

Certainly I personally have never heard of electronic metal ever used as a term, not sure what experimental metal would be, and don't see pagan metal as being anything uniquely different from bands that often fall under the umbrella of viking, folk or black.

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:02 pm 
 

draconiondevil wrote:
I mean I listen to Cannibal Corpse a lot and their stuff doesn't sound that extreme to me anymore so I guess they're not extreme metal either?


We're trying to say this isn't ENTIRELY subjective.

I don't know who agreed upon "extreme metal" as being a wide category of groupings of sub-genres, but I first heard it on this site probably about 12 years ago give or take, and my guess is it's been used longer than that, probably since around the year 2000.

Where it came from, who knows. Could have been this site or another or multiple at once, and certainly thrash and groove metal are 2 genres that can be debated legitimately, but death metal in general, specifically bands as heavy as Cannibal Corpse, are not and have never been up to debate and you can ask most people on here.

It couldn't be 100% subjective or we could never discuss it.

For example, by any and all definitions Judas Priest is not extreme metal and by any and all definitions Dragged Into Sunlight is extreme metal.

Likewise, Cannibal Corpse is certainly extreme metal.

We can debate Slayer and heavy thrash and groove metal bands, but Cannibal Corpse is not up for debate. This isn't ENTIRELY subjective.

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:04 pm 
 

21stCenturySkippyMan wrote:
Depends on the band. Sodom, Demolition Hammer, Sadus, Sepultura, Kreator, Slayer: Yes. Metallica, Tankard, Razor, Anthrax, Exodus, Carnivore: No.
It can be hard to draw the line sometimes, but Extreme Metal has a dark, sadistic and/or unhinged feel to it. The former bands whilst being Thrash clearly fall into that more sinister realm IMO. However, the latter bands have a sound that resembles a more punky, "human-like" anger/outrage and thus cannot be considered extreme metal.


Listen to Razor's Shotgun Justice.

Not sure I'd call it extreme, but man is it SUPER aggressive.

One of my all time favorite thrash albums in terms of sheer aggression.

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Spiner202
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:39 pm 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
21stCenturySkippyMan wrote:
Depends on the band. Sodom, Demolition Hammer, Sadus, Sepultura, Kreator, Slayer: Yes. Metallica, Tankard, Razor, Anthrax, Exodus, Carnivore: No.
It can be hard to draw the line sometimes, but Extreme Metal has a dark, sadistic and/or unhinged feel to it. The former bands whilst being Thrash clearly fall into that more sinister realm IMO. However, the latter bands have a sound that resembles a more punky, "human-like" anger/outrage and thus cannot be considered extreme metal.


Listen to Razor's Shotgun Justice.

Not sure I'd call it extreme, but man is it SUPER aggressive.

One of my all time favorite thrash albums in terms of sheer aggression.

Might be time to shut this thread down because there won't be a worse take than this :lol:

Shotgun Justice is absolutely an extreme metal album.

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