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HeavenDuff
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 2412
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:14 am 
 

henkkjelle wrote:
Unless you think Trump won the election fair and square. In that case taking the Capitol by force and reinstating Trump would be a victory of the people over authoritarianism. I'd bet a decent amount of money that most people storming the Capitol thought they were doing just that.


No. Stop trying to suggest that there is anything punk about trying to establish a fascist dictatorship. If you're dumb enough to believe the lies of a racist, misogynistic, megalomaniac, narcissist who has been caught lying, frauding, stealing, harassing, bullying, threatening people, namely to steal an election, you're not "punk". Trump, in four years has done nothing but lie and cheat. He has been impeached twice, with massive amounts of proofs against him, that proved undeniably that the man was actively trying to cheat his way to victory, and that encouraging white supremacist militias to violently interfere with the electoral process was something he was willing to do. There is absolutely nothing, zero fucking thing about this that is "punk" about a fascist coup to establish a dictatorship.

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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1875
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:37 am 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
No. Stop trying to suggest that there is anything punk about trying to establish a fascist dictatorship. If you're dumb enough to believe the lies of a racist, misogynistic, megalomaniac, narcissist who has been caught lying, frauding, stealing, harassing, bullying, threatening people, namely to steal an election, you're not "punk". Trump, in four years has done nothing but lie and cheat. He has been impeached twice, with massive amounts of proofs against him, that proved undeniably that the man was actively trying to cheat his way to victory, and that encouraging white supremacist militias to violently interfere with the electoral process was something he was willing to do. There is absolutely nothing, zero fucking thing about this that is "punk" about a fascist coup to establish a dictatorship.


I think you're confusing your own views with what is punk and what is not. The only real characteristic of punk is to be against the system. What system and in what way you're rebelling differs but you're usually prone to show the middle finger towards whatever it is that you don't like. Punk could be about throwing capitalists into the drain (Totalt Jävla Mörker). It could be about establishing a white state (Screwdriver). It could be rebelling for rebellions sake (Sex Pistols). It could be rebelling against any norm of cleanliness (gutter punks). It could be about animal liberation, communism, liberalism, libertarianism, fascism, social democracy, conservatism, religion (I know there was a small group of people who actually converted to hinduism in the form of ISCON!) etc. Punk is not one ideological whole that is inherently opposed to something. Punk is just a style of music that feeds on rebellion (but not every punk band works this way). Much the same as black metal, which some also want to claim has a common ideological ground. In reality its just a musical genre but in this case one that has a common thread of blasphemy and/or nihilism (but not every band works like this).
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 10039
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:35 am 
 

InnesI wrote:
I think you're confusing your own views with what is punk and what is not. The only real characteristic of punk is to be against the system. What system and in what way you're rebelling differs but you're usually prone to show the middle finger towards whatever it is that you don't like. Punk could be about throwing capitalists into the drain (Totalt Jävla Mörker). It could be about establishing a white state (Screwdriver). It could be rebelling for rebellions sake (Sex Pistols). It could be rebelling against any norm of cleanliness (gutter punks). It could be about animal liberation, communism, liberalism, libertarianism, fascism, social democracy, conservatism, religion (I know there was a small group of people who actually converted to hinduism in the form of ISCON!) etc. Punk is not one ideological whole that is inherently opposed to something. Punk is just a style of music that feeds on rebellion (but not every punk band works this way). Much the same as black metal, which some also want to claim has a common ideological ground. In reality its just a musical genre but in this case one that has a common thread of blasphemy and/or nihilism (but not every band works like this).

There's nothing rebellious about fascism though
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HeavenDuff
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 2412
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:59 am 
 

InnesI wrote:
HeavenDuff wrote:
No. Stop trying to suggest that there is anything punk about trying to establish a fascist dictatorship. If you're dumb enough to believe the lies of a racist, misogynistic, megalomaniac, narcissist who has been caught lying, frauding, stealing, harassing, bullying, threatening people, namely to steal an election, you're not "punk". Trump, in four years has done nothing but lie and cheat. He has been impeached twice, with massive amounts of proofs against him, that proved undeniably that the man was actively trying to cheat his way to victory, and that encouraging white supremacist militias to violently interfere with the electoral process was something he was willing to do. There is absolutely nothing, zero fucking thing about this that is "punk" about a fascist coup to establish a dictatorship.


I think you're confusing your own views with what is punk and what is not. The only real characteristic of punk is to be against the system. What system and in what way you're rebelling differs but you're usually prone to show the middle finger towards whatever it is that you don't like. Punk could be about throwing capitalists into the drain (Totalt Jävla Mörker). It could be about establishing a white state (Screwdriver). It could be rebelling for rebellions sake (Sex Pistols). It could be rebelling against any norm of cleanliness (gutter punks). It could be about animal liberation, communism, liberalism, libertarianism, fascism, social democracy, conservatism, religion (I know there was a small group of people who actually converted to hinduism in the form of ISCON!) etc. Punk is not one ideological whole that is inherently opposed to something. Punk is just a style of music that feeds on rebellion (but not every punk band works this way). Much the same as black metal, which some also want to claim has a common ideological ground. In reality its just a musical genre but in this case one that has a common thread of blasphemy and/or nihilism (but not every band works like this).


If we're talking about punk as a musical genre, than of course, there is punk with ideology from all over the spectrum. However, henkkjelle was talking about what he described as "punk ideology", which we all seem to agree is defined by most noticeably by "rebellion". But where we probably disagree, is that I don't think you can call any form of far right ideology "rebellious". If you're a white supremacist, a racist, a fascist or a masculinist, you're not rebelling against anything, you're fighting to preserve inequalities and oppressions that favor one or many of your privileges/identities.

Like Morrigan said, there is nothing rebellious about fascism.

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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1875
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:33 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
There's nothing rebellious about fascism though


HeavenDuff wrote:
If we're talking about punk as a musical genre, than of course, there is punk with ideology from all over the spectrum. However, henkkjelle was talking about what he described as "punk ideology", which we all seem to agree is defined by most noticeably by "rebellion". But where we probably disagree, is that I don't think you can call any form of far right ideology "rebellious". If you're a white supremacist, a racist, a fascist or a masculinist, you're not rebelling against anything, you're fighting to preserve inequalities and oppressions that favor one or many of your privileges/identities.

Like Morrigan said, there is nothing rebellious about fascism.


That only works from your worldview of whites having privileges and that is that is one wants an ethno-state you only want to conform to privilege. Historically both national socialism and fascism had clear streams of rebellion however. Rebellion isn't about what one rebels against but that one rebels against something. Surely a national socialist doesn't rebel against what you call white privilege but they have other enemies. In some of the definitions of the word rebellion they even use the word insurrection which is of course what the people did when they stormed the congress (not saying this was fascist however, that would be unhistorical and inaccurate, but it was fueled by the libertarian conspiracy theory type right wingers that Trump had gathered).

Lets remember that the historical fascist movements and national socialist counterpart were in fact revolutionary to some degree (even if many of then finally gained power through elections many tried other ways initially). They certainly weren't conservative in the traditional political sense. They had some conservative values but they wanted to implement it in radical ways. The beer hall putch was an obvious example of rebellion against the the then German authority for example. They also rebelled against the agreement of Versailles (by simply ignoring it - not trying to transform it but actually breaking it by not adhering to the rules it set out).

Obviously the end result has a lot to do with getting in line and supporting the new regime. But then again that goes for all the communist punk bands also (or whatever they stand for except the anarcho-punks perhaps - and I don't mean those who are seriously, political, anarchists here but those who rebel for rebellions sake).
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Morn Of Solace
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:19 am
Posts: 2246
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:05 am 
 

The thing that strikes me the most when i talk to a racist person it's the fact that in their head what they are doing is an act of defiance against a politically correct society. There is this misguided idea that holding up the most bog standard conservative values is a revolutionary act in this "new world" they despise and fear.

This imho is not a thing to understimate. Also there is a good number of people in the punk scene that just wants chaos for chaos sake. they like conflict and something like the capitol events are a fun thing to them...

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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1875
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:49 am 
 

Morn Of Solace wrote:
The thing that strikes me the most when i talk to a racist person it's the fact that in their head what they are doing is an act of defiance against a politically correct society. There is this misguided idea that holding up the most bog standard conservative values is a revolutionary act in this "new world" they despise and fear.


Yep, and this is how it works in any ideology that has a revolutionary strain. There is an enemy and that enemy is what they want to revolt against. From the outside it doesn't matter if the enemy is considered real or not, what is important to the in-group is that they believe it is real.
And usually there is some degree of truth to any ideology and how they perceive the world (otherwise I don't think they would be attractive to very many people). Is there truth in class conflict? Sure. Is there truth in ethnic affinity. Sure. Is it truth in the power of religious belief. Sure. Is there truth in freedom as an ideal. Sure. And on it goes. What matters is what one does with it. I can't remember where but I read somewhere (article or book) where the author did his best to find what he appreciated in all the major political ideologies. I found that very interesting and inspiring.
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Curious_dead
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:13 pm
Posts: 659
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:06 am 
 

I don't think "we truly believed the election was stolen from us, we're soooo sorry" should be an excuse anymore than "I truly beleived that children were exploited in the non-existent basement of that pizzeria, I'm so sorry!"

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BastardHead
Worse than Stalin

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
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Location: St. Charles, Illinois
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:05 am 
 

InnesI wrote:
[several posts worth of horseshit that basically amounts to "attempting to install a fascist ethnostate is still punk as long as the people truly believe (regardless of whether or not they're correct) that they're rebelling against (((the system)))"]


I'm a huge Final Fantasy nerd, and there's been an image floating around FF shitposting groups and subreddits lately. It's a supposedly inspirational quote said by Squall, the protagonist of FFVIII, and it amounts to something along the lines of "There aren't really good guys or bad guys, just two sides with different perspectives fighting for what they truly believe is right", basically the same thing you've been saying here.

My issue with that pic is that that quote comes in merely a few hours into the game. At that point, Squall is a child mercenary who is contracted out by his school to whomever is willing to pay for a private army, and he says the above quote to attempt to convince himself that he's not the bad guy for assassinating a world leader like he is about to do. One of the core themes of the story is that this is an incorrect thing to think and he needs to fight for what is truly right instead of waffling around wherever the wind blows him, trying to find moral value in murder-for-hire.

Basically: grow the fuck up and believe in something instead of letting your Big Enlightened Centrist Brain leak out of you. Some viewpoints are 1000% incorrect.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:15 am 
 

However you want to spin it, thinking you're badass and rebellious for supporting cartoon-caricature rich dude Donald Trump, who spent his presidency pandering to evangelical Christians and virtue signaling tired hack racist tropes, is a huge ridiculous farce and you're an idiot if you think that's in any way punk or rebellious. "Fuck yeah, we're upholding the old patriarchal order!"

And really liking any US president that much is lame in general.
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Speed Metal Terror
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:14 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:17 am 
 

BastardHead wrote:

Basically: grow the fuck up and believe in something instead of letting your Big Enlightened Centrist Brain leak out of you.


Jon believed in something, so this might not be great advice.
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henkkjelle
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm
Posts: 4215
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:19 am 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
henkkjelle wrote:
Unless you think Trump won the election fair and square. In that case taking the Capitol by force and reinstating Trump would be a victory of the people over authoritarianism. I'd bet a decent amount of money that most people storming the Capitol thought they were doing just that.


No. Stop trying to suggest that there is anything punk about trying to establish a fascist dictatorship. If you're dumb enough to believe the lies of a racist, misogynistic, megalomaniac, narcissist who has been caught lying, frauding, stealing, harassing, bullying, threatening people, namely to steal an election, you're not "punk". --- There is absolutely nothing, zero fucking thing about this that is "punk" about a fascist coup to establish a dictatorship.


I don't think being punk says anything about how smart or dumb a person is, or how prone they are to buying into conspiracy theory.

And I never suggested that there is anything punk about trying to establish a fascist dictatorship. There's nothing punk about it. But as I said before, these people aren't operating on the same set of facts regular, non-brainwashed people operate on. They are convinced that the Democrats and the (((elite))) are trying to take over the country, not Trump. They believe they are freedom fighters instead of what they actually are: The lackeys of fascists.

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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:59 pm 
 

BastardHead wrote:
[several posts worth of horseshit that basically amounts to "attempting to install a fascist ethnostate is still punk as long as the people truly believe (regardless of whether or not they're correct) that they're rebelling against (((the system)))"]


Not what I said. I said punk is not about political ideology in response to some that implied that there was a punk ideology. I pointed out that what I've seen be the common ground in almost all punk is to be against the system. There is no further ideology involved - or rather the fight against the system takes different forms depending on the band and the individuals involved. There is nothing punk about the actual new system after its installation whether its communist or national socialist or whatever else. What is punk is the opposition to what one perceives as the power. So if a revolution against authority takes place the act of defiance against the ruling system is quite punkish but if one is to continue being punk one has to find another fight. If there is nothing to oppose there really is no punk.

BastardHead wrote:
I'm a huge Final Fantasy nerd, and there's been an image floating around FF shitposting groups and subreddits lately. It's a supposedly inspirational quote said by Squall, the protagonist of FFVIII, and it amounts to something along the lines of "There aren't really good guys or bad guys, just two sides with different perspectives fighting for what they truly believe is right", basically the same thing you've been saying here. . .

Basically: grow the fuck up and believe in something instead of letting your Big Enlightened Centrist Brain leak out of you. Some viewpoints are 1000% incorrect.


I did not mean to say there aren't people who are definitely more wrong than others. Of course I believe that to be the case just as much as anyone. I've got my preferences both in what I like and don't. I'm not trying to say that that we should equal anyone's view with another. Quite the opposite in fact. I think that we perhaps allow to many (uninformed) people get to much space in public debate.

The relevant point I was trying to make in regards to the topic at hand though is that some sees the fight against authority as the fight against the patriarchy (as Empyreal) and some see it as the fight against a corrupt system of people in power (such as Trumps most hardcore supporters). The act of rebellion is punk (doesn't mean you have to agree with what they are rebelling against) but the ideology in itself isn't.

Empyreal wrote:
And really liking any US president that much is lame in general.


This!

Hero worship in general is lame but in politics it can also be very dangerous.

henkkjelle wrote:
I don't think being punk says anything about how smart or dumb a person is, or how prone they are to buying into conspiracy theory.

And I never suggested that there is anything punk about trying to establish a fascist dictatorship. There's nothing punk about it. But as I said before, these people aren't operating on the same set of facts regular, non-brainwashed people operate on. They are convinced that the Democrats and the (((elite))) are trying to take over the country, not Trump. They believe they are freedom fighters instead of what they actually are: The lackeys of fascists.


Yep!
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The Great Fearmonger

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:04 pm 
 

https://ilearnthis.com/a/positive-vs-no ... economics/

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HeavenDuff
Metalhead

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Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:05 pm 
 

There's been a good amount of posts since my last one, but there is one key element that I want to address, and that is present in both henkkjelle and InnesI posts is this idea that these people, namely these folks who tried to overturn legitimate election results and establish a fascist dictatorship, were indeed "rebelling" because they believe or were "convinced" that they were right. Like BastardHead pointed out in his last post, the tired "two sides of the same coin" rhetoric, is problematic here. This is not about two valid perspectives on things clashing because of opposing worldviews. One is definitely less valid than the other one because, like others pointed out earlier, the turds who attacked the Capitol Building did so while purposefuly ignoring the overwhelming amount of proofs that they were in the wrong. Chosing to blind yourself to facts in an ultimate attempt to preserve an oppressive political power because it favors you is in no kind of way, ever, a form of rebellion.

If you have a missguided political perspective on something and you believe to be rebelling against oppression, doesn't make it so.

I do appreciate InnesI effort in bringing a political perspective into this, noticeably when pointing out that breaking the Versailles treaty was a way to rebel against an oppressive and unjust treaty. I don't want to celebrate Nazi Germany or anything here, but it is true that this treaty was an unjustified oppressive turd that ruined the German economy and destroyed the life of many innoccent people. However, I can't say that I see any of this applying to the case of Trump and his bunch of white supremacist goons attacking the Capitol.

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henkkjelle
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm
Posts: 4215
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:13 pm 
 

I agree with you: their side is not valid. Doesn't make them believe they're right any less hard though.

Edit: removed the first line. I don't want to make this adversarial in any way.

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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1875
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:37 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Like BastardHead pointed out in his last post, the tired "two sides of the same coin" rhetoric, is problematic here. This is not about two valid perspectives on things clashing because of opposing worldviews. One is definitely less valid than the other one because, like others pointed out earlier, the turds who attacked the Capitol Building did so while purposefuly ignoring the overwhelming amount of proofs that they were in the wrong. Chosing to blind yourself to facts in an ultimate attempt to preserve an oppressive political power because it favors you is in no kind of way, ever, a form of rebellion.

If you have a missguided political perspective on something and you believe to be rebelling against oppression, doesn't make it so.


No one has claimed it to be two sides of the same coin. I even clarified my position in a post above. Even if you think they were wrongly informed (which I think they were) they clearly rebelled against civil authority and the established government/system. That is also why so many people were so outraged by what happened - they took it as an attempt to overthrow the election result and some (especially on the boards) even saw it as a way to install a fascist dictatorship. Which I don't believe both on ideological grounds (Trumps politics weren't fascist) and also in that I don't think this was a planned coup (because if it was it was planned very sloppily and with no real attempts at actually seizing over power - most seemed to be weird people wandering around and some picking up souvenirs). The act was clearly rebellious even though most here would say it was so fighting an enemy which was constructed rather than real.

Quote:
I do appreciate InnesI effort in bringing a political perspective into this, noticeably when pointing out that breaking the Versailles treaty was a way to rebel against an oppressive and unjust treaty. I don't want to celebrate Nazi Germany or anything here, but it is true that this treaty was an unjustified oppressive turd that ruined the German economy and destroyed the life of many innoccent people. However, I can't say that I see any of this applying to the case of Trump and his bunch of white supremacist goons attacking the Capitol.


Perhaps it was a tangent but it was in response to the sentiment in the thread that fascism or national socialism couldn't be rebellious when it in truth has a clear line of rebellion, revolt and insurrection both historically and present.
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into_the_pit
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:27 pm 
 

the strasser brothers (and quite a number of SA cadres incl. ernst röhm) would like to have a word with anyone claiming that national socialism pre-1933/34 didn't have rebellious, or rather revolutionary aspects to it. however, it was the legalistic munich wing of the NSDAP that prevailed in the struggle for inner-party hegemony, and in the end it was hitler himself that decided they'd go for the reichstag and not the revolution.
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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:14 pm 
 

into_the_pit wrote:
the strasser brothers (and quite a number of SA cadres incl. ernst röhm) would like to have a word with anyone claiming that national socialism pre-1933/34 didn't have rebellious, or rather revolutionary aspects to it. however, it was the legalistic munich wing of the NSDAP that prevailed in the struggle for inner-party hegemony, and in the end it was hitler himself that decided they'd go for the reichstag and not the revolution.


Rebellion and revolution aren't the same. And we're kind of drifting here. The rebellious nature of punk music was eminently anti-oppression, anti-domination. Arguing if the Nazi movement was in fact "rebellious" or not is beside the point. We all understand that you can "rebel" against a norm and against a predominant political movement, even if said movement is progressive. But there is nothing "punk" about white supremacists storming the Capitol building to reinstate their defeated racist, misoyginist, fascist leader in and anti-democratic coup. Any form of resistance against anti-oppresive movements cannot be "punk". I can't imagine anyone trying to argue that incels resisting social changes to reduce oppression, violence and discrimination against women would ever be "punk". And sure, we can argue around the actual definition of "rebellion", and that's an interesting debate to have, really, but IMO, that's beside the point. To me, people fighting to preserve their privileges over historically oppressed class cannot be defined as the kind of rebellion that was historically at the core of punk as a musical genre, but also as it's own "ideology".

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MetlaNZ
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:43 pm 
 

It was all a swindle.

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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:07 am 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
But there is nothing "punk" about white supremacists storming the Capitol building to reinstate their defeated racist, misoyginist, fascist leader in and anti-democratic coup. Any form of resistance against anti-oppresive movements cannot be "punk".


Which is what everyone in the thread has said already. The act of rebellion is the only thing punk but whatever comes after, or what ideology one fight for (or against) isn't inherently punk since punk is not a specific political view. Punk at its core is DIY and fuck the system. That is the common ground, nothing more and nothing less. What one fights for or against varies heavily but they share the common ground in rebelling against an authority (whether we on the side accept the fight as legitimate or not).
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Morn Of Solace
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:37 am 
 

The amount of logical fallacies that allows a person to identify the dementia ridden racist millionare as the "anti-establishment" to me is unfathomable, but this at least could explain why the hell maga jocks and conspiracy theorists are spawning like mushrooms in un punk groups i used to hang out with

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Oblarg
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:42 pm 
 

InnesI wrote:
That only works from your worldview of whites having privileges and that is that is one wants an ethno-state you only want to conform to privilege.


what the actual fuck is this sentence
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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:02 pm 
 

InnesI wrote:
Which is what everyone in the thread has said already. The act of rebellion is the only thing punk but whatever comes after, or what ideology one fight for (or against) isn't inherently punk since punk is not a specific political view. Punk at its core is DIY and fuck the system. That is the common ground, nothing more and nothing less. What one fights for or against varies heavily but they share the common ground in rebelling against an authority (whether we on the side accept the fight as legitimate or not).


I firmly disagree with this. You can't be punk and right wing. Skrewdriver's white ethnostate isn't a punk, it isn't a rebellion. It's white supremacists fighting to preserve their privileges. I don't think we can agree on this.

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InnesI
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:14 pm 
 

Oblarg wrote:
InnesI wrote:
That only works from your worldview of whites having privileges and that is that is one wants an ethno-state you only want to conform to privilege.


what the actual fuck is this sentence


I messed up there didn't I? :-D

It was in response to "If you're a white supremacist, a racist, a fascist or a masculinist, you're not rebelling against anything". I probably meant to say something along the lines that this kind of reasoning only works if one has the worldview HeavenDuff has. However for the white supremacists they believe themselves to be rebelling against some kind of authority. We don't have to agree with them on this premise but they themselves do believe they are rebelling against a suppressive force.

HeavenDuff wrote:
I firmly disagree with this. You can't be punk and right wing. Skrewdriver's white ethnostate isn't a punk, it isn't a rebellion. It's white supremacists fighting to preserve their privileges. I don't think we can agree on this.


I guess we can't. For me punk is not an ideology - it's to chaotic a movement for it to be stringent. For me it's only DIY and fuck the system. The system they want to fuck seems to differ to much to say its right left, center or whatever else. It's just to diverse a genre.
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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:35 pm 
 

Saying right wing is "punk" is the most right wing thing one can say and it's a blatant lie. Stop whitewashing fascism an trying to sell it as a cultural revolution. It's not.


Last edited by Gravetemplar on Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:02 pm 
 

I like the Misfits' music and it's a shame to hear they're a bunch of idiots in real life. Punk for me is an ideology and attitude. Some metal bands and rock bands can be that for me. It's about being free of the corporatism and bigotry for me.
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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:19 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
Saying right wing is "punk" is the most right wing thing one can say and it's a blatant lie. Stop whitewashing fascism an trying to sell it as a cultural revolution. It's not.


No one is whitewashing anything here. Terms like rebellion and revolution are used to describe events with certain characteristics. You could be 100% in favor of one revolution and 100% against another and calling them both revolutions wouldn't be whitewashing the one you're against or give it any kind of legitimacy. It's a neutral term.

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MetlaNZ
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:53 pm 
 

InnesI wrote:
However for the white supremacists they believe themselves to be rebelling against some kind of authority. they themselves do believe they are rebelling against a suppressive force.

Nah, it's just an excuse and a not very subtle attempt to legitimize their beliefs.

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InnesI
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Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:18 pm 
 

MetlaNZ wrote:
InnesI wrote:
However for the white supremacists they believe themselves to be rebelling against some kind of authority. they themselves do believe they are rebelling against a suppressive force.

Nah, it's just an excuse and a not very subtle attempt to legitimize their beliefs.


By saying they rebel against a system they don't like is to legitimize them? How does that logic work out? In the case of the Trump supporters they obviously believed the election was tampered with and they obviously rebelled against the system by the storming of the congress hoping for an insurrection. I can't see how saying that is to legitimize their ideas.

It's obvious that they believe they are fighting oppression. If you'd ask Shaffer I think he wholeheartedly believes in the conspiracy theories he talks about, that they undermine his freedom and that he was fighting the oppression by storming the congress. Do I agree with him? No, but that doesn't change that it is his belief and motivation.

henkkjelle wrote:
No one is whitewashing anything here. Terms like rebellion and revolution are used to describe events with certain characteristics. You could be 100% in favor of one revolution and 100% against another and calling them both revolutions wouldn't be whitewashing the one you're against or give it any kind of legitimacy. It's a neutral term.


Yep!

Gravetemplar wrote:
Saying right wing is "punk" is the most right wing thing one can say and it's a blatant lie. Stop whitewashing fascism an trying to sell it as a cultural revolution. It's not.


No one has said that "right wing is punk" only that there are people involved in punk that are right wing (and left wing, environmentalists, vegan, religious etc). Punk is a musical genre not an ideology.
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MetlaNZ
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:33 pm 
 

InnesI wrote:
By saying they rebel against a system they don't like is to legitimize them? How does that logic work out? In the case of the Trump supporters they obviously believed the election was tampered with and they obviously rebelled against the system by the storming of the congress hoping for an insurrection. I can't see how saying that is to legitimize their ideas.

It's obvious that they believe they are fighting oppression.

They've been looking for excuses and angles for a long time to justify their ideas and to sucker in the more gullible folks out there. Trump gave it to them on a platter cause he's such a nice guy like that.

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Space_alligator
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:22 pm 
 

"The system" is just a term used by people to have a reason to be angry at fighting something.
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BastardHead
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:34 am 
 

InnesI wrote:
MetlaNZ wrote:
InnesI wrote:
However for the white supremacists they believe themselves to be rebelling against some kind of authority. they themselves do believe they are rebelling against a suppressive force.

Nah, it's just an excuse and a not very subtle attempt to legitimize their beliefs.


By saying they rebel against a system they don't like is to legitimize them? How does that logic work out? In the case of the Trump supporters they obviously believed the election was tampered with and they obviously rebelled against the system by the storming of the congress hoping for an insurrection. I can't see how saying that is to legitimize their ideas.

It's obvious that they believe they are fighting oppression. If you'd ask Shaffer I think he wholeheartedly believes in the conspiracy theories he talks about, that they undermine his freedom and that he was fighting the oppression by storming the congress. Do I agree with him? No, but that doesn't change that it is his belief and motivation.


Okay we've gone around in this circle like ten fucking times in the last few days, so I'm going to be extremely clear in this question: What, exactly, is the point you're trying to make? You keep saying over and over and over again that the people who stormed the capitol genuinely believed they were doing the right thing. Congratulations dipshit, everybody knows that. Nobody woke up that day and said "I'm about to go do something obviously incorrect that I am totally aware is a violent mistake perpetuated by a lie told by a notorious liar." All of them thought they were doing the right thing, no fucking shit, otherwise they wouldn't've fucking done it. I don't think anybody has said otherwise, and you continually pointing it out is absolutely doing the legwork to legitimize those beliefs. The fact that they sincerely believe them isn't the fucking point, it's that those sincere beliefs are wrong and dangerous. The fact that you keep steering away from that is the reason everybody is arguing with you. You can put little caveats at the end of your posts all you want, but saying "I agree with you guys that they're wrong" at the end of your tenth god damned post running interference for these knuckleheads and assuring us that they thought they were right is hilarious. If you build ten bridges and fuck one goat, you're gonna be known as the InnesI, The Goat Fucker.

You've been muddying waters and playing some third-string devil's advocate for conservative social issues for months now. You either know exactly what you're doing or you're the most useful idiot on the planet. The last page or so of this utter trainwreck of a thread has had the exact same energy as you sitting backwards on a chair and saying "You know who was pretty punk rock? Jesus Christ." Shut the fuck up.
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~Guest 21181
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Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:11 am 
 

BastardHead wrote:
All of them thought they were doing the right thing, no fucking shit, otherwise they wouldn't've fucking done it. I don't think anybody has said otherwise.


*****

Ilwhyan wrote:
Yes, the problem is that nobody happens to think that Trump should've won, and stands for him only because they believe it's the right thing to do for democracy's sake.

HeavenDuff wrote:
turds who attacked the Capitol Building did so while purposefuly ignoring the overwhelming amount of proofs that they were in the wrong. Chosing to blind yourself to facts

MetlaNZ wrote:
Nah, it's just an excuse and a not very subtle attempt to legitimize their beliefs.



This line of conversation seems to me to have started with henkkjelle making an empirical statement about MAGA cultists, a handful of people mistaking it for a normative one, and then InnesI doing that thing where he drags the guts of his premise across sandpaper for their entire intestinal length before wiping his keyboard with it.

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InnesI
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Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:26 am 
 

MetlaNZ wrote:
They've been looking for excuses and angles for a long time to justify their ideas and to sucker in the more gullible folks out there. Trump gave it to them on a platter cause he's such a nice guy like that.


Yep, pretty much!

BastardHead wrote:
Okay we've gone around in this circle like ten fucking times in the last few days, so I'm going to be extremely clear in this question: What, exactly, is the point you're trying to make? You keep saying over and over and over again that the people who stormed the capitol genuinely believed they were doing the right thing. Congratulations dipshit, everybody knows that.


My point was to make a comment on punk as rebellion (which started with henkkjelle post I believe). Then people came in and said right wing politics wasn't punk and some that left wing (or progressive) rebellion was the only rebellion they would categorize as punk. I tried to make the same point as henkkjelle that rebellion in itself is punk but that the punk movement isn't really based on any one political ideology.

Quote:
Nobody woke up that day and said "I'm about to go do something obviously incorrect that I am totally aware is a violent mistake perpetuated by a lie told by a notorious liar." All of them thought they were doing the right thing, no fucking shit, otherwise they wouldn't've fucking done it.


The point was made by HeavenyDuff that a rebellion isn't a rebellion if the premises on which the rebellion is based are wrong. That is why we got into that discussion. And again the point was made bu me and henkkjelle that rebellion in itself is just a descriptive term. One can then talk about if it is based on legitimate oppression or not but it is still a rebellion.

Quote:
I don't think anybody has said otherwise, and you continually pointing it out is absolutely doing the legwork to legitimize those beliefs. The fact that they sincerely believe them isn't the fucking point, it's that those sincere beliefs are wrong and dangerous. The fact that you keep steering away from that is the reason everybody is arguing with you. You can put little caveats at the end of your posts all you want, but saying "I agree with you guys that they're wrong" at the end of your tenth god damned post running interference for these knuckleheads and assuring us that they thought they were right is hilarious.


So you and me would then be in agreement but because I say it I somehow legitimize it? I don't understand how that works to be honest. I haven't legitimized anything, I've actually been clear in saying I don't agree. What the discussion has been centred around is whether there are any ideological ties to punk as a genre (I've said there isn't - and people still think I've said right wing politics is punk which I never did) and how we define the word rebellion.

Quote:
You've been muddying waters and playing some third-string devil's advocate for conservative social issues for months now. You either know exactly what you're doing or you're the most useful idiot on the planet. The last page or so of this utter trainwreck of a thread has had the exact same energy as you sitting backwards on a chair and saying "You know who was pretty punk rock? Jesus Christ."


Funny thing - this is exactly what people in the local Stockholm punk scene used to say around the late-90's. :-D Though they were not all that serious of course. None, that I know of was actually religious.

I think some people here are good at taking what I say as it is but some really can't see how one can be neither conservative nor liberal (in the American sense) and when I don't agree with their liberal ideals they automatically think I defend Trump or libertarian values. This is also why I try to be as clear as I can by posting caveats such as I wouldn't vote for Trump, I don't believe in free marked capitalism, I don't believe in their naive focus on negative liberty, I don't believe in the conservative party's approach to guns, I don't agree with them on religion, and I certainly reject all of the weird conspiracy type ideas many of them hold so close to heart etc. And even when I do some choose to not believe that and instead think I am somehow an American conservative/Trump supporter because of what they think I try to say in some kind of hidden way.

The caveats come from me feeling I have to be super clear with some otherwise they will misinterpret my words and think I, in this case, love Donald Trump. I hope I've made myself very clear, at least in this post, that I have no problem saying I don't support him.
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interstellar_medium
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:15 pm 
 

InnesI wrote:
(in the American sense)


This whole "discussion" seems to be really based on a culture clash: InnesI and henkkjelle are not from the English-speaking world, while the folks arguing with them are.
If anything, the subtleties of language are interpreted differently between the two "parties" because we're talking native vs non-native speakers.


BastardHead wrote:
[the exact same energy as you sitting backwards on a chair and saying "You know who was pretty punk rock? Jesus Christ."


Black metal actually.

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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:26 pm 
 

Pretty sure this has nothing to do with being a native or non-native English speaker. I'm not a native speaker and I'm not from North America and BastardHead is completely in the right here. InnesI has been playing the devil's advocate for conservatives, far right supporters and fascists for a while. "Fascism is the new punk" is just another of his pseudo-intellectual schemes to whitewash fascism because there's always some tangential argument to make it look less bad. Some shade of grey that could be looked under a different light because at the end of the day "the left and the right are really just the same" and everything is subjective, isn't it?

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interstellar_medium
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:44 pm 
 

Okay, that makes you one person who's not a native speaker out of at least four who are.

I couldn't care less for what's going on outside the "music talk" boards - so maybe InnesI has indeed managed to make a name for themselves (so to speak) out there, I wouldn't know. They certainly don't seem to do this in this thread.
What I'm reading is that they're saying that there's loads of stupid people belonging to "privileged classes" who believe they are cool and "rebellious" when they are "fighting" imaginary oppression (when they think their privilege might be threatened, which equals "oppression" in their minds). Which is of course bullshit, but that's what those stupid people believe, unfortunately.
Which is also what everyone else is saying. But using different words.

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Oblarg
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:58 pm 
 

It's entirely possible to attach oneself to the "punk" aesthetic while being right wing. Does this make someone "punk?" Does it matter?

This whole argument seems silly. No one seems to disagree on any meaningful consequence of this distinction.
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waiguoren
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:30 pm 
 

Nah, nothing to do with native speaker or not. Innesl (is that how you spell it?) is being obtuse. And that whole 'left and right according to the American sense' is nonsense, the whole world is so entwined with America right now it just makes no sense. Trust me the Swedish left is pretty much the same as the American left, and vice-versa.

This is all pointless anyhow, just make your point and move on. Arguing endlessly about this shit when YOU KNOW you won't be changing anyone's mind is just, god, I don't know, write a fucking book or adopt a pet or something, some of us just want(ed) to see if Jon is still in jail or not. Thanks for the yawn-inducing diversion I guess?
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