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Vadara
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 11:14 pm
Posts: 342
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 4:13 pm 
 

This may be a completely ridiculous argument, but I can't help feel there might be some merit to the idea that the recent metal-adjacent genres may have siphoned some of the talent that might have otherwise become metalheads. In the 90's, if you wanted to listen to edgy heavy music to piss off your parents and school, well you basically had thrash/black/death metal and hardcore (which was way less popular) and that was kinda it lol? And if you wanted to make that kinda music, you'd start a shitty metal band. Then the 2000's happened and suddenly these high schoolers can just listen to like deathcore or some shit. I was in middle/high school in the 2000's and I remember seeing a billion -core t-shirts and shit, and basically no metal ones at all, even amongst the kids who WOULD have been rocking death metal shit if they had been born just a decade earlier.

People here are absolutely right that metal fans skew older. Metal is pretty fuckin' boomer. I don't even mean this as like an insult lol that's just how it is

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Slater922
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
Posts: 750
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 11:57 am 
 

Vadara wrote:
People here are absolutely right that metal fans skew older. Metal is pretty fuckin' boomer. I don't even mean this as like an insult lol that's just how it is

And that's why having more younger fans are a must. Not that having some old-schooled metal fans are a bad thing, but having some newer fans get an equal amount of light can lead to a good mix of some new bands followed by some veteran bands.
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Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5852
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 12:32 pm 
 

Hmm, don't think metal skews older, or that it's not attracting younger fans, but that our exposure to other metalheads is primarily those of our own generation, or older, and so as we grow older, it seems like the fanbase for metal is growing older, too. One thing to consider here is the way metal communities work; you see a lot of millennials and Gen Xers still use forums like this one, but younger folks and even many older boomers don't prefer communicating with other metalheads via message board, or perhaps even online. Our perspective there is narrowed, but that narrowing doesn't mean that those other generations don't exist in great numbers. We just aren't exposed to them as much.

Speaking from the experience of working the band queue on MA, the number of new bands being added to the site doesn't seem to be declining at all. In fact, in the last year we've consistently seen more bands being submitted than in previous years. Whether the pandemic or not, it seems musicians young and old are still making metal, and for the most part that hasn't changed all that much since this site started.
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MetalVermont
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:23 pm
Posts: 31
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 5:25 pm 
 

Curious_dead wrote:
Bertuccia wrote:

In 80s there were interesting band. But now, a trad heavy band is a plagiarism of Irons or similar, a thrash metal band is a plagiarism of big four or teutonic thrash bands.



I don't think you understand what plagiarism is.

Even bands that do resemble their predecessors (which is far from the majority in any given genre, if you actually listened to them) often have interesting songs.

But at this point, I think you've entrenched yourself in your side of the argument, so I don't see how this discussion is ever gonna be fruitful. If you wanna believe that all modern trash plagiarizes Metallica, it's your prerogative, but you won't find many people agreeing with you...


For the millionth time, it’s THRASH not TRASH!

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HeavenDuff
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 2446
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 5:57 pm 
 

Vadara wrote:
This may be a completely ridiculous argument, but I can't help feel there might be some merit to the idea that the recent metal-adjacent genres may have siphoned some of the talent that might have otherwise become metalheads. In the 90's, if you wanted to listen to edgy heavy music to piss off your parents and school, well you basically had thrash/black/death metal and hardcore (which was way less popular) and that was kinda it lol? And if you wanted to make that kinda music, you'd start a shitty metal band. Then the 2000's happened and suddenly these high schoolers can just listen to like deathcore or some shit. I was in middle/high school in the 2000's and I remember seeing a billion -core t-shirts and shit, and basically no metal ones at all, even amongst the kids who WOULD have been rocking death metal shit if they had been born just a decade earlier.


You're right. It's a ridiculous argument. The success of other genres doesn't hinder metal's well-being. If anything, people getting int other forms of aggressive, high-energy and intense music might actually get more people into metal music. Kids listening to deathcore in the 2000's probably also got into metal music at some point, and those who didn't probably just abandonned deathcore all together when they became adults or when the scene started dying out.

Also, we do not measure the well-being of a legitimate music genre like metal based on if teenagers are using it to piss off their parents.

Vadara wrote:
People here are absolutely right that metal fans skew older. Metal is pretty fuckin' boomer. I don't even mean this as like an insult lol that's just how it is


Dude... boomers are people who were born between the mid 1940's and the mid 1960's... How many 60+ years old metalheads do you know?

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Frank Booth
Can Bench 450

Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:29 pm
Posts: 1014
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 7:10 pm 
 

Yeah, people getting into entry-level stuff as a phase in high school and then never really going further and losing interest has always been a thing. The twee indie dude desperately trying to hide the pics of him from his scene days and the Chelsea Grin ankle tat he got with his high school graduation money is just following in the footsteps of his dad who used to own an IROC-Z and has a bunch of pics of him in a Poison crop top from when he was twenty.

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Hexenmacht46290
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:30 pm
Posts: 249
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 1:59 am 
 

Bertuccia wrote:
I became cynic but I don't like it. I want to stop it.


Ask yourself this question: “which would you rather be?”

Sad, that mainstream music doesn’t sound like anything resembling metal. Sad that Iron Maiden can sell out a stadium, playing metal, but no other real metal bands could, and that you can make money off of metal, but very few people do, and even fewer get rich off it. Sad, that all your all time favorites are really old bands, and that all the newer bands you like are good, but less good(this is assuming you actually check out new music. Everything you said gives me cause to believe you aren’t, or are looking in the wrong places). Sad that you’ll never live in a “golden age of metal.”

Or, happy, that you found some new album, that is great, and you’re excited to put on your speakers and listen to. Happy, that you went and saw some show, there were only twenty people there, that you got to meet one of your favorite new bands, and buy merch off them, and take a picture with them(something bigger bands would charge you money for!), your ticket and shirt money bought them gas and food, or maybe you told them they could park their van on your street, assuring them their equipment wouldn’t get stolen, and you gave them food and beer, and they slept on your floor, and then, maybe they checked out your band, if you have one. and asked you to open for them, on their next tour. Happy, that you saw a bunch of good bands, playing good music, putting on an entertaining show. Happy, that some band responded to your message on Bandcamp.

Their are things you can control, and things you can’t. Are you going to worship death? Or, are you going to live?
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Curious_dead
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:13 pm
Posts: 672
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 8:25 am 
 

MetalVermont wrote:
Curious_dead wrote:
Bertuccia wrote:

In 80s there were interesting band. But now, a trad heavy band is a plagiarism of Irons or similar, a thrash metal band is a plagiarism of big four or teutonic thrash bands.



I don't think you understand what plagiarism is.

Even bands that do resemble their predecessors (which is far from the majority in any given genre, if you actually listened to them) often have interesting songs.

But at this point, I think you've entrenched yourself in your side of the argument, so I don't see how this discussion is ever gonna be fruitful. If you wanna believe that all modern trash plagiarizes Metallica, it's your prerogative, but you won't find many people agreeing with you...


For the millionth time, it’s THRASH not TRASH!


It all depends on quality, doesn't it? :wink:

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LithoJazzoSphere
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 2064
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 9:13 am 
 

That's always been a fascinating typo, possibly the most common in the metal landscape. I don't know if people less careful about typing and editing than I am find that "h" difficult to execute, or if it's a subtle dig at the subgenre that they feel they need to insert.

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Curious_dead
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:13 pm
Posts: 672
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 9:20 am 
 

Well in my case, English sin't my first language and I always forget which is which.

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Morn Of Solace
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:19 am
Posts: 2249
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 9:25 am 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
That's always been a fascinating typo, possibly the most common in the metal landscape. I don't know if people less careful about typing and editing than I am find that "h" difficult to execute, or if it's a subtle dig at the subgenre that they feel they need to insert.


I can safely tell that at least 50% of italian metal fans think that it's the actual name of the genre :lol: the word "thrash" is pretty much unused in normal language and most people don't even know it's meaning, while "trash" is a way more commonly used term, even in italian media (terms like trash talk, trash tv... are often left untranslated)

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Turner
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 2:04 am
Posts: 2225
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 10:54 pm 
 

oooh, time to flex and make use of a $40k lingustics degree!

Basically, the th- sound in a word like thrash doesn't exist in most European languages and is hard(ish) to learn, kinda like how native English speakers find -ch in German or the French r- difficult. So people from places like 1980s Germany, Spain, Italy, Brazil, etc approximated thrash verbally as "trash". I guess at first they were TRYING to say "thrash" (same way they will write the but pronounce it more like "zeh"), but at some point it managed to coin itself as an actual synonym - likely through common usage by people who didn't speak enough English to know the word thrash, and as luck would have it trash has a kinda "dirty" connotation, so 1+1 would've seemed a fair bit like 2.

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LithoJazzoSphere
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 2064
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 1:52 am 
 

That's quite interesting. I've read plenty of Americans doing it too though, so it's probably a mix of things.

Turner wrote:
(same way they will write the but pronounce it more like "zeh")


And I've noticed especially from Dutch vocalists that "the" often comes out sounding like "duh".

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AddWittyUsername
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:40 pm
Posts: 206
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 2:07 am 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
That's quite interesting. I've read plenty of Americans doing it too though, so it's probably a mix of things.

Turner wrote:
(same way they will write the but pronounce it more like "zeh")


And I've noticed especially from Dutch vocalists that "the" often comes out sounding like "duh".

Makes sense, considering the closely-related Dutch article 'de' with much the same function as English 'the', and which is pronounced exactly like "duh". Easy to end up somewhat conflating them.

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Turner
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 2:04 am
Posts: 2225
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 2:08 am 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
That's quite interesting. I've read plenty of Americans doing it too though, so it's probably a mix of things.


Oh for sure. I'd say that's more of a social affectation though - the same way some people insist on referring to metalheads as hessians, as if that's the commonly-accepted term for "heavy metal listener" and not just what they want it to be.

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Turner wrote:
(same way they will write the but pronounce it more like "zeh")


And I've noticed especially from Dutch vocalists that "the" often comes out sounding like "duh".


Yeah, to get boring about it that's the result of a shift in Germanic languages at some point after the mass migration to England in the ~6th century, and there are all these interesting correlations between distinct sounds where they morphed on the continent but not in England, resulting in words that are similar if you know the patterns. The "th" sound is just one of them - there's a huge overview of it on Wiki here. I'm pretty sure the only other Germanic languages that retain the two "th" sounds are Icelandic and Faroese - also probably as a result of geographic isolation.

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megadeth93
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:20 pm
Posts: 103
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2021 2:15 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Vadara wrote:

Dude... boomers are people who were born between the mid 1940's and the mid 1960's... How many 60+ years old metalheads do you know?


There are more of them than you think. My dad, who passed away last year aged 77, was a bona fide Deep Purple fan in the 1970s then I got him into Iron Maiden and Saxon (especially the latter) in the 1980s. He was playing my Best of Saxon cassette over and over again. By your definition, he was a pre-boomer.

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InappropriateReponse
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu May 27, 2021 4:26 pm
Posts: 16
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2021 5:29 pm 
 

Is it 'dying'? No, as long as there is an audience, it's not going anywhere. it 'died' in the 90's, according to the mainstream, but we all now that was far from the truth. Phases come, phases go.

I remember years ago, I read it in an old issue of Metal Maniacs, one of the writers said (paraphrasing here) 'How sad will it be if a band like Slayer are still around touring in their 40's?'. No one really expected any of those bands to last as long as they ended up lasting.

It seems like every new 'generation' asks the same question, 'how long will this last?'. 50+ years now, it's pretty safe to assume it's here to stay.

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HeavenDuff
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 2446
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2021 10:22 pm 
 

megadeth93 wrote:
HeavenDuff wrote:
Vadara wrote:

Dude... boomers are people who were born between the mid 1940's and the mid 1960's... How many 60+ years old metalheads do you know?


There are more of them than you think. My dad, who passed away last year aged 77, was a bona fide Deep Purple fan in the 1970s then I got him into Iron Maiden and Saxon (especially the latter) in the 1980s. He was playing my Best of Saxon cassette over and over again. By your definition, he was a pre-boomer.


I think you got my point. Unless you're actually arguing that boomers do represent the majority of the metal community?

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soul_schizm
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:55 am
Posts: 708
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2021 11:56 pm 
 

Losing popularity? No, no.

Its appeal is becoming more selective.

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Rodman
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:15 am
Posts: 620
Location: Sydney, Australia
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 12:53 am 
 

soul_schizm wrote:
Losing popularity? No, no.

Its appeal is becoming more selective.


This is why MA needs an upvote button.
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LordEuronymous
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 9:09 am
Posts: 86
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 1:10 am 
 

No... metal is not dying at all, I would've said it is 10 years ago.
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LithoJazzoSphere
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 2064
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 10:31 am 
 

Rodman wrote:
soul_schizm wrote:
Losing popularity? No, no.

Its appeal is becoming more selective.


This is why MA needs an upvote button.


Oh god no. We already have Twitter, Reddit and such. Those sort of social media tools just encourage passive engagement and a race to the bottom for low quality discussion. I can't say they're the sole factor, but they've been part of what has ruined a number of other forums I've been on that added them.

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MDL
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:12 pm
Posts: 478
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 12:35 pm 
 

If we're talking from the average metalhead's perspective, then, yes, it's already dead since 1989 and everything else since that era is either a crime against humanity or a failed copycat;

If we're talking about the music per se, no, it's not.

As simple as that.

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Opus
Veteran

Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2002 11:06 am
Posts: 3284
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 3:03 pm 
 

That wasn't simple at all.
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HeavenDuff
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 2446
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 3:12 pm 
 

MDL wrote:
If we're talking from the average metalhead's perspective, then, yes, it's already dead since 1989 and everything else since that era is either a crime against humanity or a failed copycat


There is no such thing as an average metalhead.

Also, considering how death metal and black metal, two of the most prolific subgenres of metal, really took shape and expanded in the 90's, I can't really grasp who this "average metalhead" you're talking about is supposed to be.

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hells_unicorn
Veteran

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:32 pm
Posts: 2597
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 4:07 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
MDL wrote:
If we're talking from the average metalhead's perspective, then, yes, it's already dead since 1989 and everything else since that era is either a crime against humanity or a failed copycat


There is no such thing as an average metalhead.

Also, considering how death metal and black metal, two of the most prolific subgenres of metal, really took shape and expanded in the 90's, I can't really grasp who this "average metalhead" you're talking about is supposed to be.


He's using metalhead in the context of the heavy metal movements of the 80s, specifically the NWOBHM and its contemporaries in Europe, the Americas, Japan and a few other places. It's a really bad point of reference because as someone who caught the tail end of the 80s, most of the people older than me who were there for the whole thing were trend-hoppers who grew out of metal the minute MTV and terrestrial radio started playing something else. There might be a few original trad metal people out there who think that death and black metal are not real sub-genres of their music, but most of the people who say that crap are people who haven't listened to a metal album since 1991.
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MDL
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:12 pm
Posts: 478
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 4:16 pm 
 

The average social network metalhead, I'd say better.
Yes, I should've written 1999/2000 instead, my bad, I've forgot about that detail. But besides from that, I keep my stance on the matter. Since, basically, every new thing that came and broke through the metal world since the start of the XXI century (melodeath, post-black, alternative metal, metal/deathcore, "flower metal", progressive metal, DSBM, goregrind, slam and so on) are widely seen as offenses to the metal scene, either because they're not as "true" as their ancestors, or because they're just too far off from it.

However, these are the same people who keep complaining about the fact that there's nothing new or groundbreaking that could "save the genre", constantly searching for a metal Messiah that just doesn't appears to exist, in their perspective. And they'll just label bands that happen to play traditional metal, like, Enforcer, Burning Witches, Evil Invaders and so on as failed tentatives for doing so, when the bands probably weren't even interested on such. And then, the cycle repeats

Like, yes, I can understand that the metal community tends to be traditionalist on that matter, but constantly acting like these new bands and artistic ways for creating music are subversive to their niche is just plain dumb. Things happen to change through times. Have y'all seen how much guitar music has changed since Robert Johnson?

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Vadara
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 11:14 pm
Posts: 342
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 4:18 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:

Dude... boomers are people who were born between the mid 1940's and the mid 1960's... How many 60+ years old metalheads do you know?


I am a 25-year-old millennial. When i say "boomer" I just mean like "people older than 40", lol

You ask me to imagine a metalhead, my mind instantly goes to a guy in his 40's who's been listening to the genre since his teens.

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InappropriateReponse
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu May 27, 2021 4:26 pm
Posts: 16
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 4:30 pm 
 

Vadara wrote:
HeavenDuff wrote:

Dude... boomers are people who were born between the mid 1940's and the mid 1960's... How many 60+ years old metalheads do you know?


I am a 25-year-old millennial. When i say "boomer" I just mean like "people older than 40", lol

You ask me to imagine a metalhead, my mind instantly goes to a guy in his 40's who's been listening to the genre since his teens.


That...hurts my soul... :lol:

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HeavenDuff
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 2446
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 4:32 pm 
 

hells_unicorn wrote:
He's using metalhead in the context of the heavy metal movements of the 80s, specifically the NWOBHM and its contemporaries in Europe, the Americas, Japan and a few other places. It's a really bad point of reference because as someone who cause the tail end of the 80s, most of the people older than me who were there for the whole thing were trend-hoppers who grew out of metal the minute MTV and terrestrial radio started playing something else. There might be a few original trad metal people out there who think that death and black metal are not real sub-genres of their music, but most of the people who say that crap are people who haven't listened to a metal album since 1991.


I mean, I kind of figured that's what he was refering to. But I don't get these people are supposed to be "average metalheads" or how they are a relevant metric of how well metal is doing.

MDL wrote:
The average social network metalhead, I'd say better.
Yes, I should've written 1999/2000 instead, my bad, I've forgot about that detail. But besides from that, I keep my stance on the matter. Since, basically, every new thing that came and broke through the metal world since the start of the XXI century (melodeath, post-black, alternative metal, metal/deathcore, "flower metal", progressive metal, DSBM, goregrind, slam and so on) are widely seen as offenses to the metal scene, either because they're not as "true" as their ancestors, or because they're just too far off from it.

However, these are the same people who keep complaining about the fact that there's nothing new or groundbreaking that could "save the genre", constantly searching for a metal Messiah that just doesn't appears to exist, in their perspective. And they'll just label bands that happen to play traditional metal, like, Enforcer, Burning Witches, Evil Invaders and so on as failed tentatives for doing so, when the bands probably weren't even interested on such. And then, the cycle repeats

Like, yes, I can understand that the metal community tends to be traditionalist on that matter, but constantly acting like these new bands and artistic ways for creating music are subversive to their niche is just plain dumb. Things happen to change through times. Have y'all seen how much guitar music has changed since Robert Johnson?


You're losing me even more with this. Your "average social media metalhead"? People who usually hold these kind of discourses are older people who have not listened to anything new in ages or "le wrong generation" kids who also have no clue what metal these days even is about. Either way, I don't see how these people are supposed to be "the average metalhead". Metalheads are people who are actually going to shows nowadays, keeping the scene alive and actually listening to active bands.

I know these "metal is dead" people exist, but I hardly ever come across that kind of people, and again, I don't see how they are the average metalhead. The 90's and 2000's saw their fair share of very popular and commercially succesful bands, like Children of Bodom, Nightwish, In Flames, Sonata Arctica, Cradle of Filth, Dimmu Borgir, etc. Fans of these bands are also people who are around their 30's and 40's right now and who are very much "social media metalheads".

I'm also not getting where the whole "there are no young metalheads" argument actually comes from or why anyone is actually buying into this. There are still young metalheads, and if you're going to argue otherwise, please actually demonstrate this.

Vadara wrote:
HeavenDuff wrote:

Dude... boomers are people who were born between the mid 1940's and the mid 1960's... How many 60+ years old metalheads do you know?


I am a 25-year-old millennial. When i say "boomer" I just mean like "people older than 40", lol

You ask me to imagine a metalhead, my mind instantly goes to a guy in his 40's who's been listening to the genre since his teens.


You might want to rethink your use of the word "literally" than, because people in their 40's are literally Gen X, not boomers.

And even than, I don't see it. If you've ever been at metal shows, there are still a lot of people in their 20's, and typically, the majority of the crowd is people in their 30's, a few 40-something people, and that old guy in a King Diamond shirt.


Last edited by HeavenDuff on Fri May 28, 2021 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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hells_unicorn
Veteran

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:32 pm
Posts: 2597
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 4:40 pm 
 

Vadara wrote:
I am a 25-year-old millennial. When i say "boomer" I just mean like "people older than 40", lol

You ask me to imagine a metalhead, my mind instantly goes to a guy in his 40's who's been listening to the genre since his teens.


You do realize that most of the people you are referring to with that phrase are Gen X and were the original anti-Boomer crowd, right? I'm 41 and I occasionally get called a millennial by people who think that the Gen X cutoff is 1979 (I think only one major media source defines it that way, the rest put the cutoff somewhere between 1980 and 1983). Your definition of a metalhead does lineup with what I think MDL's definition is, and I don't think that it's universally the case that they all hate anything that happened after the 90s, especially those who are still listening to it regularly.

MDL wrote:
The average social network metalhead, I'd say better. Yes, I should've written 1999/2000 instead, my bad, I've forgot about that detail. But besides from that, I keep my stance on the matter. Since, basically, every new thing that came and broke through the metal world since the start of the XXI century (melodeath, post-black, alternative metal, metal/deathcore, "flower metal", progressive metal, DSBM, goregrind, slam and so on) are widely seen as offenses to the metal scene, either because they're not as "true" as their ancestors, or because they're just too far off from it.

However, these are the same people who keep complaining about the fact that there's nothing new or groundbreaking that could "save the genre", constantly searching for a metal Messiah that just doesn't appears to exist, in their perspective. And they'll just label bands that happen to play traditional metal, like, Enforcer, Burning Witches, Evil Invaders and so on as failed tentatives for doing so, when the bands probably weren't even interested on such. And then, the cycle repeats

Like, yes, I can understand that the metal community tends to be traditionalist on that matter, but constantly acting like these new bands and artistic ways for creating music are subversive to their niche is just plain dumb. Things happen to change through times. Have y'all seen how much guitar music has changed since Robert Johnson?


Eh, progressive metal in its current form dates back at least to 1989 if you go by the earliest examples put out by Fates Warning and Dream Theater, and the style was pretty much codified by the mid-90s. Even the darker groove/progressive metal variant was basically full developed by Nevermore before the end of the 90s. Likewise, alternative metal goes back way before 1999, along with goregrind and melodeath. It's fashionable among certain internet communities to bash many of these sub-genres, but I guarantee you that the vast majority of them are younger than I am.

HeavenDuff wrote:
I mean, I kind of figured that's what he was referring to. But I don't get these people are supposed to be "average metalheads" or how they are a relevant metric of how well metal is doing.


In my opinion, it isn't relevant to the topic at all precisely because it isn't the average metalhead. Most of the people I know who are older than me got into old school metal because it was on the radio, they hopped off the trend the minute it ended. To be fair, there are a lot of old school guys who never stopped listening, but those are usually not the people openly bashing new sub-genres, most of those people are wannabe old schoolers who are younger than me, and it's debatable if I'm even a proper old school guy since I only started listening at age 8 when the late 80s thrash craze was at its peak.
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Last edited by hells_unicorn on Fri May 28, 2021 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Invocation
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:11 pm
Posts: 118
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 5:03 pm 
 

Vadara wrote:
HeavenDuff wrote:

Dude... boomers are people who were born between the mid 1940's and the mid 1960's... How many 60+ years old metalheads do you know?


I am a 25-year-old millennial. When i say "boomer" I just mean like "people older than 40", lol

You ask me to imagine a metalhead, my mind instantly goes to a guy in his 40's who's been listening to the genre since his teens.


As someone only a few years older than you, I think the fact that you view people in their 40s as old "boomers" is pathetic.


MDL wrote:
The average social network metalhead, I'd say better.
Yes, I should've written 1999/2000 instead, my bad, I've forgot about that detail. But besides from that, I keep my stance on the matter. Since, basically, every new thing that came and broke through the metal world since the start of the XXI century (melodeath, post-black, alternative metal, metal/deathcore, "flower metal", progressive metal, DSBM, goregrind, slam and so on) are widely seen as offenses to the metal scene, either because they're not as "true" as their ancestors, or because they're just too far off from it.


Melodeath and alternative metal are more closely associated with the 90s aren't they? And prog metal and goregrind have roots in the late 80s. Also, melodeath, progressive metal, "flower metal" and even some metalcore are all pretty popular in the wider scene, as a glance at any festival lineup will show you:

Spoiler: show
Image


Most of the people who hate all those genres usually don't think metal is "dying" because they avidly follow the underground.

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MDL
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:12 pm
Posts: 478
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 5:15 pm 
 

Well, that might just differ from the ambients which we frequent. I'm talking from my personal experience, from what I've had the chance to observe in the social media, regarding certain kind of bands/genres. You can actually witness that in some comments in large metal events or pages. People still bashing -core bands by saying they are "homossexual", transforming that in an offense or because they look like women. Another example I've came across since my early metal days is related to what is pejoratively deemed as "flower metal". Even in some Portuguese metal events, like Vagos Metal Fest, we have many people praising the older bands while, in the same comments, bashing all the "bands with bitches on corsets that don't play real metal for men" or just denouncing their fanbase as a bunch of thirsty perverts who are only there for the female singers. This is what I note, especially in big concerts, with a plethora of bands of different styles.

Additionally, while bands that play such styles, like the ones I've mentioned in the other post, trace back their roots from an older temporal context, these people still blame the founding fathers and the newer artists from such styles.

And most of these comments are from people that, at least, appear to look above 30. I'm not sure if that matters, since there's still pleny of youngster gatekeepers.

Due to the fact that the people who represent the examples I've mentioned above are mostly everywhere in the social media, I decided to call them as "average metalheads". Maybe I could've use a better descriptor, for sure, but I don't know which one I'd use.

Also, I didn't said that there aren't youngster metalheads around - I'm one of them, in fact and I know a plenty of them, too.

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HeavenDuff
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 2446
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 5:26 pm 
 

MDL wrote:
Well, that might just differ from the ambients which we frequent. I'm talking from my personal experience, from what I've had the chance to observe in the social media, regarding certain kind of bands/genres. You can actually witness that in some comments in large metal events or pages. People still bashing -core bands by saying they are "homossexual", transforming that in an offense or because they look like women. Another example I've came across since my early metal days is related to what is pejoratively deemed as "flower metal". Even in some Portuguese metal events, like Vagos Metal Fest, we have many people praising the older bands while, in the same comments, bashing all the "bands with bitches on corsets that don't play real metal for men" or just denouncing their fanbase as a bunch of thirsty perverts who are only there for the female singers. This is what I note, especially in big concerts, with a plethora of bands of different styles.


I have a hard time believing that this kind of homophobia and sexism is aimed at all modern metal and not just targetted at a few subgenres, namely metalcore and gothic/power metal à la Epica or Nightwish. I'm not arguing that homophia and sexism are okay, don't get me wrong, but often times these kind of bigoted comments are just generic rants made by dumbshits who hardly have any kind of proper understanding of the metal scene. It's a bigoted way to say "I don't like this". And while I disagree with the sexism and homophobia, I don't really like trendy metalcore bands with the whole scene/emo look, and there really doesn't need to be another Epica clone in the metal scene.

However I've been to festivals, and I've seen big crowds for bands like like Mastodon, Gojira, Baroness, Electric Wizard and the likes, and while sexism still exists in the scene, Baroness and Electric Wizard, for instance, two bands who feature women guitarists, are doing pretty well for themselves and are well respected bands.[/quote]

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MDL
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:12 pm
Posts: 478
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 5:39 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
I have a hard time believing that this kind of homophobia and sexism is aimed at all modern metal and not just targetted at a few subgenres, namely metalcore and gothic/power metal à la Epica or Nightwish. I'm not arguing that homophia and sexism are okay, don't get me wrong, but often times these kind of bigoted comments are just generic rants made by dumbshits who hardly have any kind of proper understanding of the metal scene. It's a bigoted way to say "I don't like this". And while I disagree with the sexism and homophobia, I don't really like trendy metalcore bands with the whole scene/emo look, and there really doesn't need to be another Epica clone in the metal scene.

However I've been to festivals, and I've seen big crowds for bands like like Mastodon, Gojira, Baroness, Electric Wizard and the likes, and while sexism still exists in the scene, Baroness and Electric Wizard, for instance, two bands who feature women guitarists, are doing pretty well for themselves and are well respected bands.


I've actually spotted some comments like that aimed to some other genres too, like, say, progressive metal bands, like DT or Soul Secret, that make "gay music", in a pejorative fashion and sexist comments to basically many other bands with women on the line-up, being it symphonic metal or not (like, Arch Enemy, Feminazgul, Solstice, etc.). Myrkur was even the punching bag of the metal scene, some years ago.

About the trendy metalcore bands and "Epica clones", I guess it is just a matter of tastes. I don't really pay much attention to the looks, as long as the bands make good music. And those newer symphonic metal bands around aren't just Nightwish or Epica wannabes, just like I've often read. Especially when we're talking about vocals. These bands focus a lot on clean vocals and these are totally different from each others. Manora, In Divinia, Elvellon, Emetropia, Nivaira, Fortaleza, ElisaDay are some of the bands that I can remember at the moment that aren't just copies of the fouding fathers of the genre. Some other bands, like Vengeant and End of the Dream feature singers with really impressive and versatile vocal and instrumental skills.
They aren't clones, they've forged their own identity. They might've took some inspiration from the most well-known acts, for sure, but that can't be considered a cloning process. From that logic, all raw black metal, death metal and stoner metal bands are just cloning each others.

The other genres are mostly condemned because they're not "true metal", whatever that means, or because they're just taking things too far off and polluting the metal world (post-black, goregrind, melodeath, dsbm...)

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MutilatorOfSouls
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed May 19, 2021 11:03 pm
Posts: 5
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 8:06 pm 
 

Metal is nowhere close to dying. I think alot of the "classic bands" are starting to die, but that's because bands like KISS, AC/DC, Metallica, and Guns N Roses were all formed over 3 decades ago.

New bands are forming all the time and they're putting out new music all the time.


For example, this month alone I have found these new bands:


BARN, Emit, Death Decline, Precaria, Ghoul, Oculum Dei, Pharmacist, and many more.


If you think Metal is dying, you need to look harder.

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HeavenDuff
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 2446
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2021 1:47 pm 
 

MDL wrote:
HeavenDuff wrote:
I have a hard time believing that this kind of homophobia and sexism is aimed at all modern metal and not just targetted at a few subgenres, namely metalcore and gothic/power metal à la Epica or Nightwish. I'm not arguing that homophia and sexism are okay, don't get me wrong, but often times these kind of bigoted comments are just generic rants made by dumbshits who hardly have any kind of proper understanding of the metal scene. It's a bigoted way to say "I don't like this". And while I disagree with the sexism and homophobia, I don't really like trendy metalcore bands with the whole scene/emo look, and there really doesn't need to be another Epica clone in the metal scene.

However I've been to festivals, and I've seen big crowds for bands like like Mastodon, Gojira, Baroness, Electric Wizard and the likes, and while sexism still exists in the scene, Baroness and Electric Wizard, for instance, two bands who feature women guitarists, are doing pretty well for themselves and are well respected bands.


I've actually spotted some comments like that aimed to some other genres too, like, say, progressive metal bands, like DT or Soul Secret, that make "gay music", in a pejorative fashion and sexist comments to basically many other bands with women on the line-up, being it symphonic metal or not (like, Arch Enemy, Feminazgul, Solstice, etc.). Myrkur was even the punching bag of the metal scene, some years ago.

About the trendy metalcore bands and "Epica clones", I guess it is just a matter of tastes. I don't really pay much attention to the looks, as long as the bands make good music. And those newer symphonic metal bands around aren't just Nightwish or Epica wannabes, just like I've often read. Especially when we're talking about vocals. These bands focus a lot on clean vocals and these are totally different from each others. Manora, In Divinia, Elvellon, Emetropia, Nivaira, Fortaleza, ElisaDay are some of the bands that I can remember at the moment that aren't just copies of the fouding fathers of the genre. Some other bands, like Vengeant and End of the Dream feature singers with really impressive and versatile vocal and instrumental skills.
They aren't clones, they've forged their own identity. They might've took some inspiration from the most well-known acts, for sure, but that can't be considered a cloning process. From that logic, all raw black metal, death metal and stoner metal bands are just cloning each others.

The other genres are mostly condemned because they're not "true metal", whatever that means, or because they're just taking things too far off and polluting the metal world (post-black, goregrind, melodeath, dsbm...)


We're drifting in an entirely different (even if somewhat related) subject here. Homophobia and sexism still exist among metalheads, but are not distinctive traits of the metal community as a whole. And even if they may be more common among older fans (which is also true about society as a whole and also not specific to metal, as sexism and homophobia tend to be more commong among older generations than younger ones) it also doesn't define the old-school metalheads community, as bands like Judas Priest, for instance, were already very popular in the 70's, 80's and 90's with an homosexual frontman (I know he wasn't openly out in the 70's and 80's, but you had to be pretty oblivious not to notice he was homosexual).

I also never claimed that all female fronted metal bands were Epica clones. I don't know where you got that idea, but this is definitely not something I was trying to put forward. There are fantastict, fantastic, fantastic female fronted metal bands, and people giving these bands shit just for featuring women in their line-up are indeed just sexist pieces of shit.

The line I was trying to draw is that some people might have legitimate criticism towards bands that just so happen to be female fronted or to feature female musicians in their line-up. Myrkur, for instance, is probably one of the most over-hyped projects of the last decade. This was marketed to us as the next big thing in black metal, with big names like Garm involved in the production. But the final product was a massive let down. Myrkur is ethereal pop badly mixed with subpar black metal that prominently features generic, underwhelming crap riffs. Myrkur is absolutely, 100% deserving of all the negative criticism it receives. Even the second opus of the band, which is comparatively better than the first one, is average run-of-the-mill, generic 3rd wave black metal. Now of course, when people start complaining about Myrkur being a woman and that the very core of their complaints are just plain sexism, that's an entirely different story, and that's plain despicable.

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MDL
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:12 pm
Posts: 478
PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2021 5:47 pm 
 

Well, I'd say that, despite the fact that those aren't specific traits of the metal community, they're still very present on it and that's a conclusion that I've seen mentioned not only in this forum, but in many other metal/music-related digital platforms. And yes, people still do this homophobia stuff even if they know that big metal icons, like Halford or Gaahl are homossexual. I'm not sure if these same people also dislike those two artists and the bands they're in, or if they enjoy being contradictory all along. So much that there are even some more recent bands, which represent movements for social causes, within the metal scene, like, Feminazgul, Operation Volkstod and Lord Goatcorpse's gazilion musical projects.
Yes, metal isn't the only environment where this kind of active discrimination happens, but still, it is there, on a plethora of different manifestations.

About the "Epica clone", I've used that wordplay to say that such things are written all over the internet, in a surely pejorative way. Even I, when I happen to have my Nightwish/Epica/Lacuna Coil shirt dressed while crossing in the street with another visibilly identifiable metalhead, I notice some flout gazing. Your saying that "there's no need for another Epica clone" made it sound quite negative. Glad to have it clarified.

Regarding Myrkur, well, again, I'd say it's just a matter of tastes. If her music was intensively marketed as the epitome of black metal in the 21st century, I guess it was more of Metal Blade's fault (I think they were the ones who've signed her) and not hers. I personally liked her music and I felt it like a breath of fresh air to the scene. But that's just my personal take on it and yes, for sure, if people felt that something was badly done, it's on their right to complain about it. I'd say that's just more of the label's fault on the intense promotion her albums received.


Last edited by MDL on Sun May 30, 2021 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ill-Starred Son
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
Posts: 843
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2021 6:15 pm 
 

You know, this is such a long thread and so I haven't felt much interest in reading through this but seriously, for us on a forum like this who are TRUE metal heads, unlike the people who DON'T really realize how much great metal is out there, how is this even a subject worth discussing?

It's usually the people who DON'T really know much about metal on little facebook groups or whatever who suggest that metal died in the 90s or whatever.

But we all know that incredible metal of all styles is being created EVERY DAY and that the genre is more alive then ever, so seriously, what are we even questioning here?

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LithoJazzoSphere
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 2064
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2021 7:51 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Myrkur, for instance, is probably one of the most over-hyped projects of the last decade. This was marketed to us as the next big thing in black metal, with big names like Garm involved in the production. But the final product was a massive let down. Myrkur is ethereal pop badly mixed with subpar black metal that prominently features generic, underwhelming crap riffs. Myrkur is absolutely, 100% deserving of all the negative criticism it receives. Even the second opus of the band, which is comparatively better than the first one, is average run-of-the-mill, generic 3rd wave black metal.


She is one of those artists that is/was over-hyped in segments of the metal world, particularly closer to the album release dates, but is probably quite underrated on a place like this forum. I'm not going to claim Mareidt and parts of M are the pinnacle of what black metal has to offer, but it's a fairly unique sound, and focusing purely on the riffs completely misses the point. Good chunks of it aren't even metal at all. It's not for everyone, but it absolutely should have its place. The tracks with Chelsea Wolfe alone make it worth it.

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