Encyclopaedia Metallum: The Metal Archives

Message board

* FAQ    * Register   * Login 



Reply to topic
Author Message Previous topic | Next topic
Metal_On_The_Ascendant
Metalhead

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 6:38 am
Posts: 1206
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 7:46 pm 
 

What progressive metal band would you reasonably compare/stack against the one that is eternally associated with the subgenre - Dream Theater? It is easy to say Fates Warning I suppose but they are not as overtly similar and I have listened extensively to both.

It always struck me as strange that DT sort of wrote the book for all "progressive metal" going forward - at least as far as that space went in the 2000's. It's more recently that prog metal seems to have gotten out of the chuggy riffs, soaring vocals, instrumental sections phase that DT started.

I think Threshold would be an apt comparison but they aren't as storied even though they are quite prolific. They come the closest in my estimation. Still, they don't have a single record you could place against Images and Words in terms of general impact. Aaaargh! Are DT unchallenged at the helm...forever?
_________________
EldritchSun wrote:
Bands are do music way too close to others to get recognized as "X genre" bands are fucking mediocre. Do Metallica's riffs sound Kreator's riffs? no!

Top
 Profile  
Death By Wall of Text
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:18 pm
Posts: 132
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 7:53 pm 
 

I'd say Opeth easily comes to mind in terms of impact - they had a massive impact on the genre, with a lot more bands embracing more extreme contrasts and the kind of "foresty" clean/lead playing Opeth have always used a lot.

Another band that's not entirely metal but got close to the line at one point and has had massive impact on prog metal as well is Porcupine Tree. Their impact goes even beyond prog, I think every other band that made some form of atmospheric/dark proggy music in the 00s took some influence from them, as well as the more accessible variation of Meshuggah-style riffing they used.

I think both bands shaped modern prog, especially in the last decade to a massive extent.

Top
 Profile  
Metal_On_The_Ascendant
Metalhead

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 6:38 am
Posts: 1206
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 7:59 pm 
 

I absolutely agree as far as Opeth goes. Like DT, they inspired their fair share of clones. Akerfeldt is admittedly a fan of James LaBrie so I always wondered if his breathy clean singing on like Ghost Reveries came from that haha. But yeah, they did take some slight influence from DT as well even though their aim was different. Portnoy claimed some song on GR was influenced by the style of "Home"....which one though??

Porcupine Tree though? Not very influential.
_________________
EldritchSun wrote:
Bands are do music way too close to others to get recognized as "X genre" bands are fucking mediocre. Do Metallica's riffs sound Kreator's riffs? no!

Top
 Profile  
Death By Wall of Text
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:18 pm
Posts: 132
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 8:05 pm 
 

Probably Beneath the Mire? There is something in that intro.

I'd reaaaallyyyy disagree on Porcupine Tree not being that influential though. "Heavy prog rock" in particular was almost dominated by bands with an obvious PT influence in the 00s, and a lot of it seeped into prog metal as well. Some fairly prominent bands now, like Riverside or Leprous, definitely had a significant PT influence early on (but moved away from it).

Top
 Profile  
GOOFAM
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:06 am
Posts: 122
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 8:34 pm 
 

Symphony X and Queensryche definitely have to be recognized here. A lot of folks look at SX as a sort of DT-lite, but every component of the band is pretty different. Dream Theater doesn't really indulge in neoclassical stuff much, doesn't let the bass run wild, and certainly doesn't center around the vocals in that power-metally way; they're also way less concerned with overt metallic catchiness the way SX is. Bands that want to go the guitar/key/drums instrumental interplay route, which sort of follows the prog rock template (Haken, Shadow Gallery, Spheric Universe Experience, etc.), tend to follow DT, whereas bands that tend to be more vox/guitar driven in the progpower tend to have a big SX influence (Galneryus, Delta, Adagio, Ring of Fire, etc.).

And like SX kind of ties prog to power metal, Queensryche does the same for trad metal, keeping things in a tighter,
more song-oriented vein but losing all the crazy neoclassical intricacy in favor of a more rocking approach, but still sort of out-intellectualizing typical trad metal fare. Of course, Operation: Mindcrime also kind of set the blueprint for prog metal concept albums, and those '80s albums influenced DT themselves, not to mention other key bands like Fates Warning and Crimson Glory.

A lot of the reason the DT influence is so pervasive is because John Petrucci has such a recognizable style, and so many players really took inspiration from him. It's not like that many bands have really aped all the elements of DT--not that many actually write stuff with the scope of "A Change of Seasons" or "Octavarium," or have Portnoy's wildly up-front drum mixes, or go to Rudess' wacky ragtime breaks, or have one song sound like Pantera, the next one like U2, and the next one sound like Metallica covering Yes. There are a lot of groups that sound like one specific moment of the band, but just sit on that moment forever, like an infinite number of versions of "As I Am" or "The Enemy Inside" or (with more modern production) "Pull Me Under."

Top
 Profile  
HR90
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:57 pm
Posts: 143
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 9:55 pm 
 

I will take Watchtower over Dream Theater.

Top
 Profile  
goetia_unreleased
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 5:35 pm
Posts: 55
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 10:07 pm 
 

Threshold - Psychedelicatessen, Hypothetical, or Dead Reckoning. Hell, even March of Progress could be added to this list.
_________________
elitist / n. 1. person with ostentatious likes and dislikes based on pretentious standards of excellence.

Top
 Profile  
des91
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:51 pm
Posts: 95
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 11:31 pm 
 

They sound absolutely nothing alike but... Voivod? Their albums from Dimension Hatross onward would be classified as Prog Metal by most I’m sure.

Top
 Profile  
colin040
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:00 pm
Posts: 6319
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 3:01 am 
 

Metal_On_The_Ascendant wrote:

It always struck me as strange that DT sort of wrote the book for all "progressive metal" going forward - at least as far as that space went in the 2000's. It's more recently that prog metal seems to have gotten out of the chuggy riffs, soaring vocals, instrumental sections phase that DT started.


You're kidding, right? Plenty of bands from the 90s weren't all that chuggy and besides the second and third DT album, I'd hardly call them a band with soaring vocals to begin with!

Top
 Profile  
Metal_On_The_Ascendant
Metalhead

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 6:38 am
Posts: 1206
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 8:45 am 
 

colin040 wrote:
Metal_On_The_Ascendant wrote:

It always struck me as strange that DT sort of wrote the book for all "progressive metal" going forward - at least as far as that space went in the 2000's. It's more recently that prog metal seems to have gotten out of the chuggy riffs, soaring vocals, instrumental sections phase that DT started.


You're kidding, right? Plenty of bands from the 90s weren't all that chuggy and besides the second and third DT album, I'd hardly call them a band with soaring vocals to begin with!


2000s
_________________
EldritchSun wrote:
Bands are do music way too close to others to get recognized as "X genre" bands are fucking mediocre. Do Metallica's riffs sound Kreator's riffs? no!

Top
 Profile  
Metal_On_The_Ascendant
Metalhead

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 6:38 am
Posts: 1206
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 8:51 am 
 

goetia_unreleased wrote:
Threshold - Psychedelicatessen, Hypothetical, or Dead Reckoning. Hell, even March of Progress could be added to this list.


Yes! Their entire discography can go toe to toe. I'd include Clone too, a much more wholesomely heavy record than say Train of Thought.

@GOOFAM, I agree with you about SX and I've never considered them really similar to DT either.

About Queensryche though, I don't wanna call them over hyped because the hype was well-deserved with that initial EP through Mindcrime. But such a big deal has always been made about them when really they peaked with Mindcrime. Empire was decent but also AOR-leaning and nowhere near their initial burst. I like bits of Promised Land but it is downhill from there until LaTorre joined and some decency was regained. They may have influenced Dream Theater and Fates Warning but are not comparable for lack of consistency.
_________________
EldritchSun wrote:
Bands are do music way too close to others to get recognized as "X genre" bands are fucking mediocre. Do Metallica's riffs sound Kreator's riffs? no!

Top
 Profile  
Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 29644
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 8:56 am 
 

Threshold is far better in terms of overall quality in albums for me... any of their recent ones are some of the best prog out there in general.

Symphony X and Psychotic Waltz would also be superior in terms of pure enjoyment or quality of the albums over time.

That said, yeah I mean Images & Words is a thundering, unique piece of work and Awake is great too, and those albums really defined prog metal by taking Rush and other 70s prog and mixing it with Metallica-esque heaviness. That defined the genre we know today way more than the obscure 80s prog power acts like old Fates Warning - though damn if it wouldn't be cool if that style had caught on more wildly.
_________________
Cinema Freaks latest reviews: Possessor

Top
 Profile  
LithoJazzoSphere
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 2062
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 9:11 am 
 

There are a lot of bands who could challenge DT on the basis of a album or two. Aghora, Ark, Edge of Sanity, Planet X, to mention a few. There aren't many with comparable complete careers though. Symphony X is probably one of the closest. More power metal and neoclassical influence, but a similar level of musicianship and general approach, with a career spanning 2.5+ decades and counting. There are other bands who focus on particular aspects of what DT does, but they aren't as directly comparable, such as Evergrey, Ayreon, Nevermore, Opeth, Savatage, Tourniquet, and Devin Townsend. There are also several "not quite metal" bands who could easily rival DT such as King Crimson and Rush. Arguably also a band like Tool.

Top
 Profile  
colin040
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:00 pm
Posts: 6319
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 9:19 am 
 

Metal_On_The_Ascendant wrote:
colin040 wrote:
Metal_On_The_Ascendant wrote:

It always struck me as strange that DT sort of wrote the book for all "progressive metal" going forward - at least as far as that space went in the 2000's. It's more recently that prog metal seems to have gotten out of the chuggy riffs, soaring vocals, instrumental sections phase that DT started.


You're kidding, right? Plenty of bands from the 90s weren't all that chuggy and besides the second and third DT album, I'd hardly call them a band with soaring vocals to begin with!


2000s


Oops! My bad :p

But yeah, in terms of eaaarly sound Fates Warning could have been a comparable act, as both bands didn't shy away from the Rush influences, but I suppose Dream Theater went a bit more along the lines of what was ''in'' during 1994, whereas FW got poppier in the early 90s.

Top
 Profile  
Twisted_Psychology
Metal freak

Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 5472
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 9:20 am 
 

Metal_On_The_Ascendant wrote:
Portnoy claimed some song on GR was influenced by the style of "Home"....which one though??


That's rich considering the main riff on this song is a pretty direct rip of Tool's Forty Six & 2.
_________________
Christopher Steve (Doom Folk/Americana): http://christophersteve.bandcamp.com/
Lavaborne (Power Doom): https://lavaborne.bandcamp.com
Spirit Division (Stoner Doom): http://spiritdivision.bandcamp.com

Top
 Profile  
Metal_On_The_Ascendant
Metalhead

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 6:38 am
Posts: 1206
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 9:29 am 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Threshold is far better in terms of overall quality in albums for me... any of their recent ones are some of the best prog out there in general.

Symphony X and Psychotic Waltz would also be superior in terms of pure enjoyment or quality of the albums over time.

That said, yeah I mean Images & Words is a thundering, unique piece of work and Awake is great too, and those albums really defined prog metal by taking Rush and other 70s prog and mixing it with Metallica-esque heaviness. That defined the genre we know today way more than the obscure 80s prog power acts like old Fates Warning - though damn if it wouldn't be cool if that style had caught on more wildly.


I agree. Especially since DT themselves were fans of what Fates were doing. But it was such an inimitable style with Arch at the front that even they couldn't sustain it for long. Their first record with Alder is so brazenly heavy ("heavy" before the chugga-chugga takeover of prog metal in the 2000s) like they were racing away from the quirkiness of the Arch albums. Matheos claims to not like The Spectre Within but he knows how precious those albums are for the fans.

Psychotic Waltz is the nearest comparison to Arch Fates, I think. Just as wonderfully individual in style. Dream Theater thanks Psychotic Waltz in the Awake liner notes...they were regarded even by their peers as the band that would take prog to the metal mainstream. I watched some YouTube convo on either Prog Report or Sea of Tranquility about how everyone in the scene at the time awaited Images and Words to just break through in some hope that it would be a springboard for other bands in the style.
_________________
EldritchSun wrote:
Bands are do music way too close to others to get recognized as "X genre" bands are fucking mediocre. Do Metallica's riffs sound Kreator's riffs? no!

Top
 Profile  
Metal_On_The_Ascendant
Metalhead

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 6:38 am
Posts: 1206
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 9:37 am 
 

colin040 wrote:
Oops! My bad :p

But yeah, in terms of eaaarly sound Fates Warning could have been a comparable act, as both bands didn't shy away from the Rush influences, but I suppose Dream Theater went a bit more along the lines of what was ''in'' during 1994, whereas FW got poppier in the early 90s.


That first album with LaBrie is specially their style but the debut bites Power Windows era Rush so hard. DT have never hidden their influences, it's kinda funny. They reference everything from fucking U2 to Pantera. And like Twisted_Psychology mentioned, Tool. And then Portnoy would fuss about how before he met Symphony X he wanted them to come correct for stealing a riff from "The Mirror". Hilarious!

Whoever mentioned about how Dream Theater sound like Metallica covering Yes summed it up pretty good :lol:
_________________
EldritchSun wrote:
Bands are do music way too close to others to get recognized as "X genre" bands are fucking mediocre. Do Metallica's riffs sound Kreator's riffs? no!

Top
 Profile  
Metal_On_The_Ascendant
Metalhead

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 6:38 am
Posts: 1206
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 9:43 am 
 

HR90 wrote:
I will take Watchtower over Dream Theater.


Watchtower were hailed by all in the early days of the scene. Not enough discography (and variety) to go against DT though.

des91 wrote:
They sound absolutely nothing alike but... Voivod? Their albums from Dimension Hatross onward would be classified as Prog Metal by most I’m sure.


Yeah Voivod is a prog metal band for sure. Mekong Delta is the first association I can think of for them though. DT is a weird stretch.

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
There are a lot of bands who could challenge DT on the basis of a album or two. Aghora, Ark, Edge of Sanity, Planet X, to mention a few. There aren't many with comparable complete careers though. Symphony X is probably one of the closest. More power metal and neoclassical influence, but a similar level of musicianship and general approach, with a career spanning 2.5+ decades and counting. There are other bands who focus on particular aspects of what DT does, but they aren't as directly comparable, such as Evergrey, Ayreon, Nevermore, Opeth, Savatage, Tourniquet, and Devin Townsend. There are also several "not quite metal" bands who could easily rival DT such as King Crimson and Rush. Arguably also a band like Tool.


Tool for sure but their metal credentials are questionable. Dream Theater for all their shortcomings have always maintained a metal base for their sound. Savatage is more comparable to Fates and Queensryche than DT, I think and Evergrey to Kamelot, SX to....Blind Guardian?

Threshold for the win :-D
_________________
EldritchSun wrote:
Bands are do music way too close to others to get recognized as "X genre" bands are fucking mediocre. Do Metallica's riffs sound Kreator's riffs? no!

Top
 Profile  
LithoJazzoSphere
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 2062
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 10:08 am 
 

Sure, that's why I put Tool in the section with KC and Rush. Although even earlier in my post Ayreon and Devin Townsend are pretty iffy in terms of "metalness" as well. Hmm, I don't see Evergrey and Kamelot as particularly similar, though admittedly I haven't spent that much time with Kamelot's more recent albums. SX and BG, not sure I see that in particular either, though I don't follow BG particularly closely. But then, I don't see Threshold as especially similar to DT either. I think we might be in violent agreement that there really isn't a band with a long career very similar to DT. There are plenty of clones, but they don't tend to last more than a few albums. The ones that do usually have more unique things about them.

Top
 Profile  
Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 29644
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 11:22 am 
 

Metal_On_The_Ascendant wrote:
I agree. Especially since DT themselves were fans of what Fates were doing. But it was such an inimitable style with Arch at the front that even they couldn't sustain it for long. Their first record with Alder is so brazenly heavy ("heavy" before the chugga-chugga takeover of prog metal in the 2000s) like they were racing away from the quirkiness of the Arch albums. Matheos claims to not like The Spectre Within but he knows how precious those albums are for the fans.

Psychotic Waltz is the nearest comparison to Arch Fates, I think. Just as wonderfully individual in style. Dream Theater thanks Psychotic Waltz in the Awake liner notes...they were regarded even by their peers as the band that would take prog to the metal mainstream. I watched some YouTube convo on either Prog Report or Sea of Tranquility about how everyone in the scene at the time awaited Images and Words to just break through in some hope that it would be a springboard for other bands in the style.


I didn't know that about DT thanking Psychotic Waltz. I guess PW really just got fucked over by all those labels. They probably could've been much bigger with how consonant and clear and catchy they could be. But oh well...

I only recently got into post-Arch FW myself so I didn't say anything about them - but yeah Perfect Symmetry and Parallels were definitely influential as well, with those drier, more clinical sounds and Alder's voice being almost prototypical for later acts.
_________________
Cinema Freaks latest reviews: Possessor

Top
 Profile  
fourrobert13
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:31 pm
Posts: 857
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 12:24 pm 
 

Poverty's No Crime (PNC) comes to mind for me. They came on the scene a few years after DT but are still putting out quality albums IMO. PNC's first album was a dud, but everything since has been rock solid. Very DT like...you can hear the Rush influence with PNC as well. You can also hear the DT influence in PNC.
_________________
Click the link to discover new things.

Top
 Profile  
HR90
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:57 pm
Posts: 143
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 4:22 pm 
 

Metal_On_The_Ascendant wrote:
Matheos claims to not like The Spectre Within but he knows how precious those albums are for the fans.


Matheos hates Night on Bröcken because it sounds like a demo. He didn't hate The Spectre Within.

Metal_On_The_Ascendant wrote:
HR90 wrote:
I will take Watchtower over Dream Theater.


Watchtower were hailed by all in the early days of the scene. Not enough discography (and variety) to go against DT though.


In my opinion, Watchtower is better than Dream Theater. Having a pile of albums not means they all are good.

Top
 Profile  
Metal_On_The_Ascendant
Metalhead

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 6:38 am
Posts: 1206
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 4:51 pm 
 

HR90 wrote:
Matheos hates Night on Bröcken because it sounds like a demo. He didn't hate The Spectre Within.


Jim Matheos wrote:
I can’t listen to Spectre Within and people say that’s an insult to me, but it’s not. It’s not meant that way; it’s meant on a personal level.

http://fateswarning.com/2011/07/01/blis ... july-2011/

HR90 wrote:
In my opinion, Watchtower is better than Dream Theater. Having a pile of albums not means they all are good.

Point of the thread was what progressive metal band is reasonably comparable to Dream Theater (y'know, the band most associated with the subgenre) and the qualifications would be in this case general impact and a sizable amount of releases to go toe to toe with DT. There was no implication that having a pile of albums means you're better. Sheesh!
_________________
EldritchSun wrote:
Bands are do music way too close to others to get recognized as "X genre" bands are fucking mediocre. Do Metallica's riffs sound Kreator's riffs? no!

Top
 Profile  
Gravetemplar
Veteran

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 2660
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 4:54 pm 
 

I'm not sure I get what's the topic of this thread. Prog bands we like more than Dream Theater?

Top
 Profile  
Metal_On_The_Ascendant
Metalhead

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 6:38 am
Posts: 1206
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 4:59 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
I'm not sure I get what's the topic of this thread. Prog bands we like more than Dream Theater?

I just answered that, I think...
See the Watchtower dude above.
_________________
EldritchSun wrote:
Bands are do music way too close to others to get recognized as "X genre" bands are fucking mediocre. Do Metallica's riffs sound Kreator's riffs? no!

Top
 Profile  
HR90
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:57 pm
Posts: 143
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 5:38 pm 
 

Metal_On_The_Ascendant wrote:
HR90 wrote:
Matheos hates Night on Bröcken because it sounds like a demo. He didn't hate The Spectre Within.


Jim Matheos wrote:
I can’t listen to Spectre Within and people say that’s an insult to me, but it’s not. It’s not meant that way; it’s meant on a personal level.

http://fateswarning.com/2011/07/01/blis ... july-2011/


I've read that interview before, but I don't think he hates it even he said something similar about Parallels.

Jim Matheos wrote:
Like the Parallels stuff. I see how people can look at objectively and enjoy it, but I see all the faults and the things I could have done better. .


So, I know he had a different vision musically.

https://outburn.com/interviews/fates-warning/

Quote:
I don’t know if Jim disliked like what I played or if they were going to stick with Mark for the record, but for whatever reason, Jim decided to not have me play on the FWX record. I was bummed out about it because I wanted to play on it.


Arch even disliking minimal details about Awaken the Guardian.

Arch wrote:
I think Guardian has stood the test of time. It’s very unique in every aspect. Vocally, there’s a lot of squeaky irritating notes that were totally unnecessary [laughs].

Top
 Profile  
Gravetemplar
Veteran

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 2660
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 5:49 pm 
 

Metal_On_The_Ascendant wrote:
Gravetemplar wrote:
I'm not sure I get what's the topic of this thread. Prog bands we like more than Dream Theater?

I just answered that, I think...
See the Watchtower dude above.

Ah sorry, somehow I missed that message. I guess that depends on what you associate DT with. I for one don't associate them with "progressive metal". If anything, I consider them to be the most well known example of cheesy keyboard driven progressive rock and an example of what not to do. When I think of progressive metal I instantly think of stuff like Opeth, some Porcupine Tree or even more borderline rock bands like Tool as other users have already pointed out. I have a feeling stuff that like Gojira (groove/prog) and Mastodon (prog/sludge) is more well known nowadays and much more representative of the current state of prog metal than Dream Theater. Just to clarify, I'm not a big fan of any of them.

Top
 Profile  
Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 29644
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 5:57 pm 
 

That's just how it goes with creatives; anything you did in the past might seem flawed in ways to you once you grow.
_________________
Cinema Freaks latest reviews: Possessor

Top
 Profile  
Death By Wall of Text
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:18 pm
Posts: 132
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 7:33 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
Metal_On_The_Ascendant wrote:
Gravetemplar wrote:
I'm not sure I get what's the topic of this thread. Prog bands we like more than Dream Theater?

I just answered that, I think...
See the Watchtower dude above.

Ah sorry, somehow I missed that message. I guess that depends on what you associate DT with. I for one don't associate them with "progressive metal". If anything, I consider them to be the most well known example of cheesy keyboard driven progressive rock and an example of what not to do. When I think of progressive metal I instantly think of stuff like Opeth, some Porcupine Tree or even more borderline rock bands like Tool as other users have already pointed out. I have a feeling stuff that like Gojira (groove/prog) and Mastodon (prog/sludge) is more well known nowadays and much more representative of the current state of prog metal than Dream Theater. Just to clarify, I'm not a big fan of any of them.


Quote:
cheesy keyboard driven progressive rock

lol

They were never keyboard-driven, keyboards were always significant in their sound but were always a supporting instrument. There are parts of songs where keyboards are barely audible, the guitars are always up front and as massive as Petrucci's beard is these days. (Except I&W which actually IS mixed in the way it's dominated by keyboards, but it simply isn't a well-produced album. Yes, I said it.)

As for all the other bands you've mentioned, all are big and Opeth probably come the closest, but no one has overtaken DT, who play in venues that are out of reach for 99% of prog bands and still make albums that don't just sell well, but are actually popular (the latest one especially, it seems it converted even some of the anti-Mangini whineclub). And it seems a third of all prog or metal guitarists ever take some influence from them, I've heard Petrucci mentioned as an influence of guitarists ranging from prog rock to death metal. And the genre has definitely splintered into multiple different styles, but the DT-style vein is still pretty strong (case in point: Haken, from what I've heard of them).

I also got lost at some point what this thread was about - I read it as "what prog metal bands you think are/were as influential as DT", and the only answers I can think of are Opeth, Porcupine Tree and probably Tool. As for "what bands I like more", DT is one of my all-time favourite bands and were basically a gateway to all kinds of proggy/atmospheric music I'm into these days, so that's a similar answer.

Top
 Profile  
Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 29644
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 7:44 pm 
 

Love em or hate em, keyboard-driven and rock are two things Dream Theater definitely aren't... they've done a lot of stuff and plenty of it was guitar driven and very much metal.

Honestly when I think prog metal I definitely think DT and their offshoots like Pagan's Mind, Anubis Gate and the likes. Maybe Divine Ascension.
_________________
Cinema Freaks latest reviews: Possessor

Top
 Profile  
Gravetemplar
Veteran

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 2660
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 8:15 pm 
 

They have a couple of heavier albums but I consider them to be mostly a rock band, specially the early years which is the era I'm more familiar with.

As for bigger bands, I assure you Gojira right now are twice as big as Dream Theater in terms of sales, venues and Spotify listeners. They've gotten massively big over the years.

Top
 Profile  
Death By Wall of Text
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:18 pm
Posts: 132
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 9:28 pm 
 

If DT is rock, then Iron Maiden is pop rock. Literally everything they've released other than Images & Words and The Astonishing is unquestionably metal other than like 1/4 of the songs being more rock or ballads (which is a standard part of the genre). If you know early stuff, you should know Awake which pretty much pioneered the darker, low-tuned side of prog metal.

Gojira does have more right now, but they literally just released an album. They may be comparable these days in terms of reach, but in terms of long-standing influence it's just hard to get near DT in the genre. Though I'd be totally for more bands reaching that status in the future, and I think they will because prog metal is doing great and is probably more diverse than ever.

Top
 Profile  
Texas King
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:55 am
Posts: 84
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 4:07 am 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:

There are other bands who focus on particular aspects of what DT does, but they aren't as directly comparable, such as Evergrey, Ayreon, Nevermore, Opeth, Savatage, Tourniquet, and Devin Townsend.


I would add Pain of Salvation.

Top
 Profile  
Smalley
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:06 am
Posts: 952
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 4:25 am 
 

Metal_On_The_Ascendant wrote:
Tool for sure but their metal credentials are questionable. Dream Theater for all their shortcomings have always maintained a metal base for their sound.
I don't see how; I mean, the opening riff to "Parabola" alone is significantly heavier than anything I can remember off of Images & Words, if you ask me.
_________________
Smalley proudly presents: The Golden Age Of Metal!
Home Forum

Top
 Profile  
LithoJazzoSphere
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 2062
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 9:04 am 
 

Metal_On_The_Ascendant wrote:
I watched some YouTube convo on either Prog Report or Sea of Tranquility


I have to note that Sea of Tranquillity has been fast becoming one of my favorite Youtube channels in the past year. The In the Prog Seat videos are great for progressive rock-oriented material, and the Hudson Valley Squares are fun for hard/classic rock/metal, and the occasional mention of more recent metal bands. There just aren't enough music discussion shows around, especially relating to metal, so they really help fill a void.

Smalley wrote:
Metal_On_The_Ascendant wrote:
Tool for sure but their metal credentials are questionable. Dream Theater for all their shortcomings have always maintained a metal base for their sound.
I don't see how; I mean, the opening riff to "Parabola" alone is significantly heavier than anything I can remember off of Images & Words, if you ask me.


The mods have explicitly said they consider Tool-style riffs to be more hard rock-related than metal, which is why bands that most everyone else considers progressive metal like Soen don't count here. I also suspect there could be an issue with the ratio of heavy to light material. Tool has a predilection for long builds and releases that may culminate in more metallic sections, but spend a lot of time hypnotizing you with not as metal passages.

Top
 Profile  
Metal_On_The_Ascendant
Metalhead

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 6:38 am
Posts: 1206
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 2:21 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
They have a couple of heavier albums but I consider them to be mostly a rock band, specially the early years which is the era I'm more familiar with.

As for bigger bands, I assure you Gojira right now are twice as big as Dream Theater in terms of sales, venues and Spotify listeners. They've gotten massively big over the years.


How the hell are they a "rock band" though?? Dream Theater, at least from Images and Words crafted a style that became the quintessential template for the progressive metal subgenre. They were not the first prog metal band obviously but you have to recognize that Queensryche and Fates Warning had traditional metal roots and built their proggier moments from there. Even as quirky as early FW was, that first album sounded like a Maiden record. Dream Theater with "Pull Me Under" utilized a more riff-laden approach that had more in common with thrash and married it with the hallmarks of olde prog - keyboard wizardry, long solos that took you somewhere and just all around brazen technical musicianship. It was fresh for its time and the kicker was their songs were also clean-sounding and chorus-heavy albeit with twists and turns. That is what made them big. Bands in the scene at the time all looked up to them and didn't take long for the established big acts like Iron Maiden and Metallica to take notice too. Not to mention, they inspired a lot of clones.

They haven't progressed much. They have a formula now and they follow it - outside of which they would make songs that sound like Coldplay, Megadeth, Muse, Opeth ("Repentance"), U2 and whatever else tickled them. Progressive rock in general seems hard for new bands to break through and get loads of attention which is ironic because it is supposed to be well, progressive. But all the press and publications (PROG magazine from the UK as an example) focuses on the same old legendary bands - Genesis, Rush, Yes, Jethro Tull, King Crimson, Gentle Giant and...Dream Theater as the representative of "prog metal". Symphony X once came close to the popularity of Dream Theater but they obviously put "metal" first before "prog" with their later albums.

Tool and Porcupine Tree are known more for their atmospheric and nuanced music than all-out riffy metal. Not saying Dream Theater is the riffiest prog band ever (as riffier bands have come up in their wake) but everyone remembers Pull Me Under, The Glass Prison and As I Am for how excellently they married riffy heavy metal with progressive rock tropes.

Gojira have made major inroads lately and time will tell how they hold up and I personally hope they go all the way but DT is still the leading progressive metal band. Mastodon were media darlings for a while there too while Opeth sort of lost everyone's attention after Watershed.

Prog metal fans are aware of bands like Threshold, Riverside, Pain of Salvation and these bands do not sound like Dream Theater per se but they all have an established formula too that retains some of the tropes DT laid down.

*the best example of a keyboard-driven progressive metal band would be Royal Hunt who are like Styx 2.0 really.
_________________
EldritchSun wrote:
Bands are do music way too close to others to get recognized as "X genre" bands are fucking mediocre. Do Metallica's riffs sound Kreator's riffs? no!

Top
 Profile  
Gravetemplar
Veteran

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 2660
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 3:04 pm 
 

I don't know what to tell you because we probably come from completely different backgrounds but everyone I know who is remotely into prog metal/prog rock isn't into Dream Theater anymore. It's been what, 18-19 years since they released their last good album? They don't lead anything anymore. I'm not saying there aren't people interested anymore in Dream Theater (hell, Muse are releasing the worst music you could imagine and they are richer than ever), just that I don't think a lot of people would put them along bands like King Crimson and Genesis anymore. Their output has been so awful over the past years that every resemblance of them being a legendary band is dead. Of curse their hardcore fans will say otherwise. Are they still the "entry band" of prog rock/heavy metal? Probably but they are also a band you quickly forget and grow out of it when you've listened stuff that's better. At least that's what happened to me and all the people I used to know who was into prog.

I'm not saying they don't have any albums that are metal. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence and Train of Thought definitely are. A lot of Metropolis Pt. 2 is metal too. I just don't consider them a metal band because for me the prog rock elements in their discography as a whole outweigh the metal ones. Are they a bit heavier than most prog rock bands metal? Yes, sure. So is Ozzy's Black Sabbath era and I still don't consider it metal either, just bluesy hard rock/proto-metal (that's for a different topic though).

Top
 Profile  
Metal_On_The_Ascendant
Metalhead

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 6:38 am
Posts: 1206
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 3:16 pm 
 

I hear you. I agree about them not having done anything fresh in a while. I wish they'd ditch the formula and do some really radical stuff but we all know that's not going to happen. Systematic Chaos was pretty good for at least turning up the crazy in the technical department.

Where I don't agree is your assessment of them in the general scene. Metropolis Pt. 2 is endlessly held in high regard like it just came out last month. They have a rabid fanbase that voted it as the best prog album ever in Rolling Stone against the usual suspects. The DT fanbase is notorious for being uber-critical and hard to please but they've overlooked the dip in quality of recent DT.

Personally, I adore the band's second, third, sixth albums and songs off all the ones that follow before Portnoy's departure. I tire of their formula afterwards but they are solid every now and then.
_________________
EldritchSun wrote:
Bands are do music way too close to others to get recognized as "X genre" bands are fucking mediocre. Do Metallica's riffs sound Kreator's riffs? no!

Top
 Profile  
LithoJazzoSphere
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 2062
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 3:27 pm 
 

^^You sound like you're falling into a trap that I think I myself fell into at one point years ago, where "metal" sometimes gets retroactively redefined. So many tech death and more extreme prog metal bands have emerged in the past few decades that takes parts of what DT does to more intense levels that it makes DT seem lighter in comparison. But then what does that do to even earlier bands that influenced DT like Fates Warning, Queensryche, Iron Maiden, etc.? One of their contributions was taking the sound of those bands and adding more thrash elements and gradually also darker, more technical, downtuned riffing and such. But they also have pop and softer progressive rock influences from Yes, U2 and such, so their sound broadens a bit. This makes things murkier, but still on an album basis I think it's hard to argue that ones like Awake didn't essentially create the metallic template for so many other bands to build off of.

I think the challenge is that as the 00s have gone on, DT at some point became to an extent a meme band, the way Metallica has. Petrucci's shreddiest moments, Portnoy's kit size and melodrama, some of Rudess's patches, LaBrie's inconsistencies, they became known for their excesses, and other bands came along to capitalize on particular niche facets of their sound in more modern and appealing ways. But that said, their latest release Distance Over Time is probably the best thing they've released in quite a few years.

Top
 Profile  
Opus
Veteran

Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2002 11:06 am
Posts: 3284
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 3:32 pm 
 

Smalley wrote:
I don't see how; I mean, the opening riff to "Parabola" alone is significantly heavier than anything I can remember off of Images & Words, if you ask me.

Heavy ≠ metal
_________________
Do the words Heavy Metal mean anything to you other than buttcore, technical progressive assgrind or the like?
true_death wrote:
You could be listening to Edge of Sanity right now, but you're not!

Top
 Profile  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic Go to page 1, 2  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Muthafuca, Wahn_nhaW and 24 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

  Print view
Jump to:  

Back to the Encyclopaedia Metallum


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group