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Turner
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 2:04 am
Posts: 2225
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 6:42 pm 
 

PhilosophicalFrog wrote:
Turner wrote:
Satanism is fucking boring. Bands doing it these days have to really go the extra mile to interest me. At this point I honestly think Christianity is the real black metal, in the spirit of antagonism, pissing off the status quo and all that. Like ok yeah you're a black metal band doing the anti-Christian thing, ok cool, way to pave new ground. Do something exciting ffs.


dog. lol. yeah Christianity is SO NOT MAINSTREAM cause like 1% of people play music about satanism, meanwhile christianity is dominating all cultures in the western world. but yeah man, totally subversive. just like voting for trump and not wearing masks is totally subversive.


This is such.... such an American comment. I always wonder why reddit is filled with this sorta stuff. You can pick any random topic and before you know it there'll be Americans in the thread talking about Donald Trump or equating whatever the topic is to American domestic politics. It's like this horrid combination of self-centredness and small-mindedness where nothing has any meaning unless you can shoehorn it into some scenario involving the US. I don't know what it is about the American psyche that makes you do it, but.... fucking stop it already.

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kalervon
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:43 pm
Posts: 919
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 10:55 pm 
 

SladeCraven wrote:
kalervon wrote:
Members of Voivod in the early/mid 1980s used to say that black metal was metal with satanic lyrics. I guess it was almost factual back then.


By that logic Slayer and Deicide would be black metal, though. I don't disagree that black metal, especially then, had an abundance of Satanic lyrics and imagery, but going so far as to say that metal with Satanic lyrics is black metal is just obviously untrue.
It's not a logic. It's an account of how it evolved. In 1985 or so, there were maybe a hundred metal bands known worldwide.It was too early to say.. "Hmm Venom, Bathory and Hellhammer have the potential to influence a genre which shall be known as black metal when the time comes; let's call them proto-black metal, and let's call this other band, Mercyful Fate, traditional heavy metal."

People were labelling things as they went along, magazines also contributed to it (reviews, interviews), probably underground radio stations and fanzines as well. Another medium which could contribute to labelling bands was poster shows. Genre names would often feature in parentheses next to band names on those posters.. there was no sanctimonious review board, back then.

So for a couple years after Black Metal (the album) came out, a bunch of people were calling satanic metal bands "black metal", no matter whether the band had melodic solos or hi vs. lo-fi production or thrash riffs. Those labels weren't meant to be taken academically and some bands were making up their own labels at first. I think Voivod tried to call themselves nuclear metal for a while, and also went on as power metal.

At any rate, nowadays I think it is ridiculous to define metal genres according to their lyrical content, since we've had enough content to listen to and to make music categories based on musical qualities (and perhaps, production) alone. If a band sounds like Helloween but sings about street crime, they're still power metal. If a bland plays music that sounds like black metal but has christian or non-satanic lyrics, they're still black metal. Names like "unblack", "white" and "life" metal are just distracting addons like Voivod's nuclear metal label. And Black Sabbath's Tyr album is not Viking metal even though half of it is based on Norse mythology, either.
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Last edited by kalervon on Tue May 11, 2021 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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kalervon
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:43 pm
Posts: 919
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 11:02 pm 
 

SladeCraven wrote:
was Slayer called "thrash metal" in the 80's? Or is that a term that was given to the genre in retrospect? Because if the latter is the case and thrash wasn't classified as a specific subgenre, their comment would make more sense.
The 80s lasted a good 10 years. According to Wikipedia, the first recorded occurrence of the term thrash metal is in February 1984. I don't know how long it took before it became universally applied to thrash bands. I definitely knew it by 1987, but I didn't exactly live anywhere where things were happening musically.
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In_Zane
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:33 pm
Posts: 46
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 1:24 am 
 

Metantoine wrote:
I gave a 1 month ban to TheLoneFest in the name of Santa, of course. Be better, y'all.

All Hail our true lord and savior - SANTA!
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Speed Metal Terror
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:14 pm
Posts: 285
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 1:32 am 
 

In_Zane wrote:
Metantoine wrote:
I gave a 1 month ban to TheLoneFest in the name of Santa, of course. Be better, y'all.

All Hail our true lord and savior - SANTA!


Merry be His name.
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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 8492
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 3:21 am 
 

Turner wrote:

This is such.... such an American comment. I always wonder why reddit is filled with this sorta stuff. You can pick any random topic and before you know it there'll be Americans in the thread talking about Donald Trump or equating whatever the topic is to American domestic politics. It's like this horrid combination of self-centredness and small-mindedness where nothing has any meaning unless you can shoehorn it into some scenario involving the US. I don't know what it is about the American psyche that makes you do it, but.... fucking stop it already.

It sounds like you need to chill.
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hallowed78
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:53 am
Posts: 334
Location: LV-426
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 3:44 am 
 

A somewhat weird question. Satan and his various incarnations have been a mainstay of literature for centuries and later translated to screen in numerous films and TV shows. Ever since Milton's reinterpretation of Satan as a romantic hero (or anti-hero, if you will), it set a blueprint for this character that opposes higher authority and represents a liberation from oppression.

Described like this, it does show how Satan as an idea and metal have a lot in common. Therefore, it makes every sense him being a reccuring theme in metal. Black metal is the one that invested most in that matter, but there's plenty of Satan in other genres.

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Methuen
Metalhead

Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 4:55 pm
Posts: 1864
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 4:43 am 
 

Realistically, are there two strands here ?

1 - is the devil just another thing that metal inherited from the blues & 60s rock, and as with all metal themes it just got sillier over time ? You can look at early metal in the 70s and the devil is there, and track that back via their inspirations right into smoky blues clubs in the 50s and 60s. It's just another lyrical / visual theme that carried over, along with sex and witchcraft. The ultimate expressin of this strand in extreme music is Venom.

2 - the South American reaction - those bands in the 80s that came out of countries so catholic they'd make Ireland say 'hang on now a minute'. This isn't a carry over from the 60s, this is pure reaction against what they're taught in school, at mass, at home, and so on. This is where you get the extreme 'satanist' imagery from, and not the tits n' witches stuff from the 70s, reference Scarofago and so on.

What we have now is a split - the 'Strand 1' continuance is in doom, trad, etc., mainly; the 'Strand 2' continuance is what modern extreme metal really took up, which is why they're all so po-faced serious about it; the originators of the strand were very, very serious (and not just drunk Geordies out for a laugh) - so that seriousness carries forward album after album, therefore maintaining relevance by momentum - there's still a fight-to-fight and so on.
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Turner
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 2:04 am
Posts: 2225
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 10:00 am 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
Turner wrote:

This is such.... such an American comment. I always wonder why reddit is filled with this sorta stuff. You can pick any random topic and before you know it there'll be Americans in the thread talking about Donald Trump or equating whatever the topic is to American domestic politics. It's like this horrid combination of self-centredness and small-mindedness where nothing has any meaning unless you can shoehorn it into some scenario involving the US. I don't know what it is about the American psyche that makes you do it, but.... fucking stop it already.

It sounds like you need to chill.


Nah, I'm gonna stand by what I wrote there. It's been eating at me for yonks.
If you think it's out of line it's your website, so no arguments here. Make judgements as you will. I'm alright either way.

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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1883
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 11:16 am 
 

Turner wrote:
Nah, I'm gonna stand by what I wrote there. It's been eating at me for yonks.
If you think it's out of line it's your website, so no arguments here. Make judgements as you will. I'm alright either way.


I support you in that. There is so much truth in that initial statement.
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wizard_of_bore
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 4:17 pm
Posts: 655
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 2:05 pm 
 

One word from Gaahl, seems to sum it up pretty well: SATAN
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LithoJazzoSphere
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 2064
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 10:18 pm 
 

InnesI wrote:
Turner wrote:
Nah, I'm gonna stand by what I wrote there. It's been eating at me for yonks.
If you think it's out of line it's your website, so no arguments here. Make judgements as you will. I'm alright either way.


I support you in that. There is so much truth in that initial statement.


There's basically been a growing half decade of PTSD here.

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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1883
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 5:23 am 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
InnesI wrote:
Turner wrote:
Nah, I'm gonna stand by what I wrote there. It's been eating at me for yonks.
If you think it's out of line it's your website, so no arguments here. Make judgements as you will. I'm alright either way.


I support you in that. There is so much truth in that initial statement.


There's basically been a growing half decade of PTSD here.


To be fair I saw this 20 years ago as well (not on these forums though - did they even exist back then?). I'm sure its even older than that as well. Americans thinking they are the only ones mattering on the planet and that you have to choose side in their internal political conflicts. :lol:
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LithoJazzoSphere
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 2064
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 6:21 am 
 

No doubt it's been going on for years, decades, centuries, really, it's just gotten noticeably worse to me in more recent times. It's basically become the worst aspects of a team sport where both sides are furious at you if you try and opt out of fandom.

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PhilosophicalFrog
The Hypercube

Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 7:08 pm
Posts: 7628
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 11:30 am 
 

Turner wrote:
This is such.... such an American comment.


LMAO global hegemony is real, my g. sorry your country doesn't contribute to the dominance of culture the same way ours does. but it's just a fact. amerika is a christian nation. we also have the most military and largest cultural and political footprint towards the western world. put two and two together and it's not hard to understand this sentiment. believe me, i wish it weren't the case and we weren't the global police and spent money on ourselves, but alas.
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Gravetemplar
Veteran

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 2663
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 12:20 pm 
 

PhilosophicalFrog wrote:
Turner wrote:
This is such.... such an American comment.


LMAO global hegemony is real, my g. sorry your country doesn't contribute to the dominance of culture the same way ours does. but it's just a fact. amerika is a christian nation. we also have the most military and largest cultural and political footprint towards the western world. put two and two together and it's not hard to understand this sentiment. believe me, i wish it weren't the case and we weren't the global police and spent money on ourselves, but alas.

You know you just proved his point, don't you?

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LycanthropeMoon
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:53 pm
Posts: 1164
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 12:29 pm 
 

"Christianity is now anti-status quo" is just a ridiculous thing to say, honestly. It's true that metal with Satanic themes isn't exactly shocking anymore since that's been happening for over 40 years now, but Christianity is still the biggest religion in the Western world and that kind of imagery can still shock the system if done in certain ways. Look at all the trouble Lil Nas X caused when he dropped his last single "Montero (Call Me By Your Name)". I haven't seen that level of Satanic Panic in a damn long time, if ever. Someone else pointed out that Nergal's still getting in trouble due to Poland's blasphemy laws, so no, this isn't a distinctly American thing either. Hell, even Carach Angren have caused protests to happen outside their gigs in the Netherlands, and they're not even particularly Satanic - they just sing about spooky ghosts or whatever.

But yeah, it is indeed old hat for a black metal band to be singing about Satan in this day and age - in that specific context, it's been done to death.

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snarg
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri May 22, 2020 4:25 pm
Posts: 366
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 12:49 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
You know you just proved his point, don't you?


He doesn't.
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PhilosophicalFrog
The Hypercube

Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 7:08 pm
Posts: 7628
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 12:55 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
PhilosophicalFrog wrote:
Turner wrote:
This is such.... such an American comment.


LMAO global hegemony is real, my g. sorry your country doesn't contribute to the dominance of culture the same way ours does. but it's just a fact. amerika is a christian nation. we also have the most military and largest cultural and political footprint towards the western world. put two and two together and it's not hard to understand this sentiment. believe me, i wish it weren't the case and we weren't the global police and spent money on ourselves, but alas.

You know you just proved his point, don't you?


nah. his point was stupid. claiming that christiniaty isn't the main driving force of western world, and that was a uniquely american thing is just wrong - and on top of that, claiming that its small minded that a genre that is dominated by the western world, and largely americans, is somehow dragging trump into things, is just fucking idiocy. but capitalism is hella bad and exports identities to be re-sold back piece by piece so you can sleep at night saying your consumption defines your personalities. that's the great legacy of america and it's tentacles are throughout the entirety of any westernized nations. it's really not yalls fault or anything. but to claim christianity is subversive is straight up right wing thinking.

i take it back i did bring up trump lol. point stands.
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Last edited by PhilosophicalFrog on Thu May 13, 2021 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 29650
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 3:08 pm 
 

Even not going into American politics, I just can't see Christianity as being rebellious or anything like that, even if you do think Satan is overdone in metal.
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Gravetemplar
Veteran

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 2663
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 3:38 pm 
 

PhilosophicalFrog wrote:
nah. his point was stupid. claiming that christiniaty isn't the main driving force of western world, and that was a uniquely american thing is just wrong - and on top of that, claiming that its small minded that a genre that is dominated by the western world, and largely americans, is somehow dragging trump into things, is just fucking idiocy. but capitalism is hella bad and exports identities to be re-sold back piece by piece so you can sleep at night saying your consumption defines your personalities. that's the great legacy of america and it's tentacles are throughout the entirety of any westernized nations. it's really not yalls fault or anything. but to claim christianity is subversive is straight up right wing thinking.

and btw, he brought up trump and america, all i said was chrstianity dominates the west. and if that's american thought then yall got some nerve calling that take small minded lol.

Saying that metal is a "genre that is dominated by the western world, and largely Americans" is just wrong. Much better metal in Europe. Better festivals, better scene, better public. Unless you count the myriads awful groove/nu-metal bands, then you "Americans" clearly win.

Empyreal wrote:
Even not going into American politics, I just can't see Christianity as being rebellious or anything like that, even if you do think Satan is overdone in metal.

Yeah, that's just dumb right-wing propaganda. Same as the people claiming "Fascism is the new punk". Christianity isn't rebellious.


Last edited by Gravetemplar on Thu May 13, 2021 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 29650
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 3:39 pm 
 

I think the U.S. does have a lot of the best metal bands for my tastes and I am saying that as someone who has no patriotic feelings for this country at all.
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PhilosophicalFrog
The Hypercube

Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 7:08 pm
Posts: 7628
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 3:49 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
Saying that metal is a "genre that is dominated by the western world, and largely Americans" is just wrong. Much better metal in Europe. Better festivals, better scene, better public. Unless you count the myriads awful groove/nu-metal bands, then you "Americans" clearly win.


ahh ur one of those. nvm.
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Metantoine
Slave to Santa

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:00 pm
Posts: 11976
Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 3:55 pm 
 

Gravetemplar, maybe re-read Frog's post. Europe is in the western world. He's right that the US are big as far as metal is concerned, both for the underground (Italians and Greeks use pictures of Mark the Shark Shelton as foreplay) and popular stuff. It's a dominant force in metal merely because of its population, the biggest country in the western world.

Also, there's no way around it, those saying christian black metal is "rebellious" are simps.
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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 4:02 pm 
 

Metantoine wrote:
Gravetemplar, maybe re-read Frog's post. Europe is in the western world. He's right that the US are big as far as metal is concerned, both for the underground (Italians and Greeks use pictures of Mark the Shark Shelton as preliminaries) and popular stuff. It's a dominant force in metal merely because of its population, the biggest country in the western world.

Also, there's no way around it, those saying christian black metal is "rebellious" are simps.

I'm sorry but I think it is you who should re-read Frog's post. He clearly says metal is a genre "dominated by the western world, and largely americans".

I don't have any sort of pro-European feelings either but metal history and development has much stronger ties to European culture than it has to the USA. I'm not saying there aren't great bands from the USA but it is just another country in the history of metal. Not even close to being a country that has "dominated" metal culture outside of thrash, sludge and Floridan death metal. It's even more striking when you consider USA has 330 million habitants and Sweden only 10.

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PhilosophicalFrog
The Hypercube

Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 7:08 pm
Posts: 7628
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 4:18 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
metal history and development has much stronger ties to European culture than it has to the USA.


nah. unless you count the hella amount of nazi bands you guys got. that seems super compatible with the euro culture.
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mornox
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 11:09 pm
Posts: 241
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 4:54 pm 
 

PhilosophicalFrog wrote:
Gravetemplar wrote:
metal history and development has much stronger ties to European culture than it has to the USA.


nah. unless you count the hella amount of nazi bands you guys got. that seems super compatible with the euro culture.


Wow, I come here to read a fun discussion about lyrics and basically get called a Nazi because I happen to be European. Nice one. Just swell.

Also kindly fuck right the hell off with that asinine horseshit.

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raumr
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:11 pm
Posts: 1820
Location: Norway
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 5:08 pm 
 

Many Americans have an inflated sense of self-importance. They either love their country unconditionally and uncritically or they consider it the source of all the world's problems. Both are American-centric and narrow-minded. The idea that America is "just another country" in any context, in this discussion it's influence on metal, is unthinkable to them.

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Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5852
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 6:05 pm 
 

Think you guys underestimate just how much of a role the US has had in shaping heavy metal. It's absolutely undeniable that a country whose cultural influence and hegemony is as widespread as the US would not just be "another country" in the context of heavy metal, but instead would be a key player that has shaped it. You don't even have to go very far to see evidence of that. Just check this site's stats, for instance; the US accounts for almost 1/4 of all metal bands. The country with the most bands following that is Germany, at only 8%, and Italy at 5%. There was a time, not so long ago, when many people in many countries looked to the US as the global trendsetter. It's easy to just dismiss the US nowadays, but when it comes to music - especially rock and metal - that influence is notable.

As for the original question, regarding Satanism in metal and if it's falling out of favour, I don't necessarily believe it is, though I do suspect it has lost its bite. Unless you're edgy, full of yourself, or an offended religious person, nobody takes it seriously now, and I very much doubt that many musicians and fans in the past did, either. Metalheads love their tropes, whether we like to admit it or not, and being all about Satannnnn and being evil and subversive (when really we're not) is a major part of that. It has about as much serious credibility as your character in a game of D&D; some people love the roleplay for roleplaying sake, while others sometimes take it too far and come off as ridiculous caricatures of themselves. No surprise that metal, which has largely appealed to a base I'd call at least somewhat nerdy or geeky, would find the appeal in roleplaying tropes like being Satanic/Evil. That's OK, it's part of who we are as metalheads. But it does mean that questions like this, where we introspectively look into what it means to be a metalhead in some deeper sense, can come off as a little silly and contrived.

All that said, yeah, I do think this trope has more prevalence in certain areas of the world than others. You see it more often with bands that come from countries that have traditionally been dominated by Christianity and where the religion still plays a big role in society (eg. Norway, France, US, Poland, Brazil, etc.). Why? If metal is (in part) a response to stand out from, be subversive of, or to just react to the world you're in, if you're in a society that's still strongly religious it might appeal to you to respond to that, for whatever reason. Maybe you just want to be edgy? Maybe you hate society or resent religion's role in it? Maybe you are just fed up with your humdrum life and want to express yourself as different from those around you? Whatever it is, that's a trend, and the shock value of it could be seen as worthwhile. It's whether that shock value lasts which is a question I don't have an answer to. It seems to me, at least, that those dominantly Christian societies have increasingly normalized criticism of Christianity over time, so that calling yourself "Satanic" no longer really has the "oomph" it used to, and that even in some cases can be justified as redeemable by the religious (ie. "Oh he believes in Satan? Then he must also believe in God! His soul can be saved!") - You get the point. For a lot of us that shock and awe isn't there; you're Satanic? LOL, OK. :P

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PhilosophicalFrog
The Hypercube

Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 7:08 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 6:23 pm 
 

raumr wrote:
Many Americans have an inflated sense of self-importance. They either love their country unconditionally and uncritically or they consider it the source of all the world's problems. Both are American-centric and narrow-minded. The idea that America is "just another country" in any context, in this discussion it's influence on metal, is unthinkable to them.


well i'd sure like to live in a country that didn't completely starve its citizens in the name of GLOBAL PEACE(tm)(tm)(tm). hate to tell ya this, bud, but USA/China/Russia ain't "another country" - if any of these disappear politically the entire global power shift entirely changes. If the US disappeared culturally, it'd leave a sizable impact on the world trends. Can't say the same for, say Italy, Spain, Ireland, Bosnia.

regardless, i'll go on being a smug commie american. works for me.

finally, satan rules. keep him around.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 6:51 pm 
 

The UK was the real birthplace of metal with Sabbath, Priest, Maiden, Venom, et. al but the US had a shitload of important bands after all that. So did Europe. And importance of the bands isn't always the best way to measure things anyway.
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Invocation
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:11 pm
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 6:53 pm 
 

The idea that the US was more influential to the development of metal than Europe is just bizarre. Almost every 70s metal or proto-metal band was British for fucks sake. Who were the American bands that were as important as Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Rainbow, Judas Priest, or Motörhead? Then the NWOBHM came and basically defined metal as a distinct genre from hard rock with its own culture. The US developed thrash metal in the 80s (with a little help from Germany) and had the iconic Florida death metal scene but that's about it. Black metal was mostly developed by Scandinavian bands. The most important early doom metal band was Candlemass and then the genre took off due to Cathedral, the Peaceville Three and the Finnish funeral doom scene. Melodeath was an almost entiely Swedish affair. Almost every popular power metal band is European. Goth metal is pretty much entirely European apart from Type O. If anything the US seems to be mostly the source of trends metalheads don't like; glam metal, grunge, groove metal, nu-metal, metalcore...

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Wilytank
Not a Flying Toy

Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:21 am
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 7:13 pm 
 

Wild how this tangent all started because some dork thought Christianity in metal was counter culture.
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Metantoine
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Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:00 pm
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 7:27 pm 
 

Invocation wrote:
The idea that the US was more influential to the development of metal than Europe is just bizarre. Almost every 70s metal or proto-metal band was British for fucks sake. Who were the American bands that were as important as Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Rainbow, Judas Priest, or Motörhead? Then the NWOBHM came and basically defined metal as a distinct genre from hard rock with its own culture. The US developed thrash metal in the 80s (with a little help from Germany) and had the iconic Florida death metal scene but that's about it. Black metal was mostly developed by Scandinavian bands. The most important early doom metal band was Candlemass and then the genre took off due to Cathedral, the Peaceville Three and the Finnish funeral doom scene. Melodeath was an almost entiely Swedish affair. Almost every popular power metal band is European. Goth metal is pretty much entirely European apart from Type O. If anything the US seems to be mostly the source of trends metalheads don't like; glam metal, grunge, groove metal, nu-metal, metalcore...

It's easy to make such a big statement if you ignore, disregard or just don't know everything important in US metal. Saint Vitus, Pentagram, Trouble or The Obsessed were widely influential for doom metal. Proto metal or hard rock bands like Blue Oyster Cult, Van Halen, Alice Cooper, Kiss or even Rush were also important. Power metal? Manilla Road, Omen, Helstar, Virgin Steele, Jag Panzer? Also, US basically created sludge metal with Acid Bath, EHG, Crowbar and Neurosis are one of the most influential bands of their era for post metal.
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blackmantram
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:51 pm
Posts: 971
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 7:28 pm 
 

Satanism is still relevant, metal, on the other hand is not. See that famous rapper who triggered half the country with his satanic shoes and videos a few months ago. Everybody knows metal is inoffensive at best, cringey at worst, no one, except probably metalheads themselves, take it seriously anymore.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 7:35 pm 
 

Metantoine wrote:
Invocation wrote:
The idea that the US was more influential to the development of metal than Europe is just bizarre. Almost every 70s metal or proto-metal band was British for fucks sake. Who were the American bands that were as important as Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Rainbow, Judas Priest, or Motörhead? Then the NWOBHM came and basically defined metal as a distinct genre from hard rock with its own culture. The US developed thrash metal in the 80s (with a little help from Germany) and had the iconic Florida death metal scene but that's about it. Black metal was mostly developed by Scandinavian bands. The most important early doom metal band was Candlemass and then the genre took off due to Cathedral, the Peaceville Three and the Finnish funeral doom scene. Melodeath was an almost entiely Swedish affair. Almost every popular power metal band is European. Goth metal is pretty much entirely European apart from Type O. If anything the US seems to be mostly the source of trends metalheads don't like; glam metal, grunge, groove metal, nu-metal, metalcore...

It's easy to make such a big statement if you ignore, disregard or just don't know everything important in US metal. Saint Vitus, Pentagram, Trouble or The Obsessed were widely influential for doom metal. Proto metal or hard rock bands like Blue Oyster Cult, Van Halen, Alice Cooper, Kiss or even Rush were also important. Power metal? Manilla Road, Omen, Helstar, Virgin Steele, Jag Panzer? Also, US basically created sludge metal with Acid Bath, EHG, Crowbar and Neurosis are one of the most influential bands of their era for post metal.


A lot of people who say the US was unimportant just don't consider PM or trad or any of it at all because it didn't move units or whatever. Metal became such a wide genre that people can ignore huge swathes based on personal tastes.
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Slater922
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 8:54 pm 
 

Sorry for being late in my response, but the way I see it is that black metal's main aesthetic is to be dark and unconventional, and Satanism is basically the go-to for demonstrating the underground nature of the sound. Of course, Satanism in rock music is nothing new, but black metal is the most genuine when it comes to a dark Satanic-esque sound.
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LithoJazzoSphere
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 2064
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 12:29 am 
 

Invocation wrote:
The idea that the US was more influential to the development of metal than Europe is just bizarre.


Is anyone contending that other than maybe PhilosophicalFrog? But on this board the contribution is probably somewhat underrated.

Invocation wrote:
If anything the US seems to be mostly the source of trends metalheads don't like; glam metal, grunge, groove metal, nu-metal, metalcore...


You could add djent I suppose as well (originated in Sweden, but some of the biggest, earliest, and most influential acts like Periphery and Animals As Leaders are US). Also not generally recognized on this site per se, but elsewhere, alternative metal is heavily US, with Tool, Faith No More, Helmet, Jane's Addiction, Deftones, System of a Down, Primus, arguably Rage Against the Machine, etc. Industrial metal might be a bit more controversial, but you have Ministry, Fear Factory, and peripheral acts like Nine Inch Nails, Marilyn Manson and such. Progressive metal started as largely a US phenomenon with Fates Warning, Queensryche, Watchtower, Dream Theater and such. People mention Floridian death, but there's far more than that, with the New York scene with Suffocation, Immolation, Incantation and such, or California with Autopsy, Possessed, Terrorizer, etc.

Even the lead-up of hard rock into metal is influenced by US artists like Jimi Hendrix, Blue Cheer, Iron Butterfly, Vanilla Fudge, Steppenwolf, Grand Funk Railroad, etc. Plus from the punkier side of things having an influence on the earliest development you have artists like MC5, the Stooges, New York Dolls, Minor Threat, Minutemen, Dead Kennedys, Black Flag, Suicidal Tendencies, D.R.I., Corrosion of Conformity, S.O.D., Cro-Mags, Agnostic Front, etc. Europe is probably more important overall, but ignoring the contribution of US artists is really misguided.

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Texas King
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:55 am
Posts: 84
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 7:10 am 
 

Why there is no such thing as a black metal with political lyrical themes?

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into_the_pit
Veteran

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 7:40 pm
Posts: 2852
Location: Hedonist Occupation Government
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 7:19 am 
 

umm what do you mean by "political" themes?
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