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Thexhumed
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 2:23 am 
 

Throughout the 90s Satan/Satanism was a very popular lyrical theme in plenty of bands spanning many genres; however, in the last decades it has lost relevance, save for Black Metal. Why is that?
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Vadara
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 2:40 am 
 

Several things.

-Satanism was just one of metal's defining themes, and mostly done to terrorize and shock normies to be frank. Once metal got a bit more popular, and then fell out of the puritan eye, there was no need to really keep the satanism shtick going (especially as satanic panic had started to die down--it just wasn't the most terrifying thing in the world to normies anymore) Also death and thrash are the main blueprints of the majority of metal nowadays and they never really focused on satanism.

-BM on the other hand is nigh-inextricable with satanism, and the cultural inertia of the earliest examples being steeped heavily in it is strong enough that it basically has set BM as the "satan metal" genre.

-BM is, frankly, one of the worst metal genres in terms of the amount of "checklist" bands, who just passionlessly tick off boxes as if they were filling out a checklist. So you have hordes of shitty BM that just does the satan stuff because "herpa derp that's what BM does so we gotta do it too".

There's others, but that's my hypothesis.

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TheLoneForest
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 3:41 am 
 

Because metal tries to be edgy, and Satanism is peak edge

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HR90
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 4:15 am 
 

Just to be trendy/get attention or imagery to be controversial. Some people aren't even into and just for more fun and shock people. For example, Mantas from Venom is not a religious person.

Also, some people are just out of mind trying to express their beliefs, and they may think metal fits more than other genres because it is more aggressive to feel rebellious.

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snarg
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 6:35 am 
 

Stanism has decreased a lot in BM as well. These days, nature, occultism, mysticism are far more common themes for BM.

Not to mention the amount of bands that explore other religious subjects, like Paganism or Orthodoxism and many others.

What I've also witnessed is a lot of bands being mislabeled as "Satanic" when in fact they're anti-religion, which is not the same thing.

Bottom line, it's usually about the shock and awe value, Satanism has lost a lot of that because it was so heavily used in the beginning, given space to other themes. That's when you end up with the Batushka phenomena, which took a religion that is less known in the west and made an impact out of exploring it's imagery.
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Kutulu
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 7:12 am 
 

Morgan Steinmeyer Hakansson wrote:
Black metal is about having a satanic philosophy; if you don't, then it's not black metal.
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Methuen
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 8:34 am 
 

In addition to the above, it's also the easy/conservative/acceptable/safe choice; too much nature-und-soil stuff, and you've upset Reddit and the Twitterati, any whiff of anti-anything-but-Christianity and you're a somethingist, too much real-life stuff (standard bikes & booze NWOBHM lyrics etc) and you've upset the kvltists and are vntrve, too much Orthdox stuff and you're suspected of being a Christian and BURNTHEWITCH.

Always fun to read yet another interview with yet another 'new' BM band waffling on about satan - always funnier when they're grown adults waffling on about demonic energy or whatever, in between snipes at Christianity. At least some of the nature-heritage-and-not-politics-honest types go outside occasionally.
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Gunslinger21
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 10:36 am 
 

Because its fucking evil \m/

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Frank Booth
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 10:46 am 
 

I'm actually impressed when a band with Satanic lyrics does their homework and doesn't just regurgitate the same old blasphemous or Thelemic tropes. Averse Sefira was a standout with their fire and brimstone and "Christian theology as eldritch horror" approach, but doing that requires being fairly well-read and that's apparently too much to ask from most musicians.

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waiguoren
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 11:26 am 
 

Frank Booth wrote:
I'm actually impressed when a band with Satanic lyrics does their homework and doesn't just regurgitate the same old blasphemous or Thelemic tropes. Averse Sefira was a standout with their fire and brimstone and "Christian theology as eldritch horror" approach, but doing that requires being fairly well-read and that's apparently too much to ask from most musicians.


I just looked at some of their lyrics and to be honest I struggled to see how any of it showed them as being 'well-read.' Care to share an example of what you mean? The ones I saw were, quite frankly, your standard garbage BM lyrics.
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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 2:06 pm 
 

Bands with oldschool Satanist lyrics tend to be from countries where Christianity is still very present think of the US or South America. Word salad satanist bands however tend to be from countries that have more heavily secularised (Basically all the orthodox bm bands).
And ofcourse post-bm and other more modern forms of BM almost never have lyrics like this.
Personally I think a lot of bands just do it because they think its cool and fits the music. They might think satanism is essential for black metal but this often means the idea more than actual conviction.

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Required Fields
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 2:10 pm 
 

snarg wrote:
Stanism has decreased a lot in BM as well. These days, nature, occultism, mysticism are far more common themes for BM.

Not to mention the amount of bands that explore other religious subjects, like Paganism or Orthodoxism and many others.

What I've also witnessed is a lot of bands being mislabeled as "Satanic" when in fact they're anti-religion, which is not the same thing.

Bottom line, it's usually about the shock and awe value, Satanism has lost a lot of that because it was so heavily used in the beginning, given space to other themes. That's when you end up with the Batushka phenomena, which took a religion that is less known in the west and made an impact out of exploring it's imagery.


Sadly, you left out "National Socialism" as a common theme in black metal nowadays.

But yeah, in the past 30 years, having overtly OTT Satanic lyrics went from "Wow, these guys are shocking!" to "Oh, he's singing about sacrificing virgins to Satan. How kvlt."
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Sokaris
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 2:13 pm 
 

I'd just say it's tradition at this point. I have no issue with black metal bands writing about Satan, death metal bands writing about death or heavy metal bands singing about rocking in the city to-night. I suppose you can call it cliche, but it's a pretty big part of the genre's DNA. If you named the 50 most important metal bands, I'd wager more than half of them at least mention the devil in a song.
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TheLoneForest
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 3:09 pm 
 

Kutulu wrote:
Morgan Steinmeyer Hakansson wrote:
Black metal is about having a satanic philosophy; if you don't, then it's not black metal.


The saddest part is people still unironically believe that

Gunslinger21 wrote:
Because its fucking evil \m/


No, it's cringe

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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 3:17 pm 
 

snarg wrote:
Stanism has decreased a lot in BM as well. These days, nature, occultism, mysticism are far more common themes for BM.

Not to mention the amount of bands that explore other religious subjects, like Paganism or Orthodoxism and many others.

What I've also witnessed is a lot of bands being mislabeled as "Satanic" when in fact they're anti-religion, which is not the same thing.

Bottom line, it's usually about the shock and awe value, Satanism has lost a lot of that because it was so heavily used in the beginning, given space to other themes. That's when you end up with the Batushka phenomena, which took a religion that is less known in the west and made an impact out of exploring it's imagery.

A lot of bands use Satanism as a form of Anti-Religion. Most of these bands use Satanism as a tool to rebel against Christianity and they aren't really mutually exclusive. I don't really think they are mislabelled, just not all bands are the same. I'd actually say most bands that use Satanic themes do it for anti-religious purposes.

There's also some wild generalization going on in this thread. Yes, a lot of hardcore Satanist bands are "cringe" but I honestly don't think Satanism is the common denominator there. There's a ton of ridiculous and bad metal out there and it has nothing to do with Satanism. There's also a lot of stuff that's pretty cool and still has lyrics that deal with Satan.

Even Satanism as a topic can be very diverse. There are bands that lean heavily to theology and philosophy (DsO), bands that revolve around mythology, tales, worship rituals and witchery (Cultes des Ghoules), darkness, evil and occultism in a blasphemous way using Christian imagery (Teitanblood)... All of this deals with Satanism too and doesn't have to really involve just dumb gimmicks.

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Wrldeatr
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 3:30 pm 
 

Is it even relevant in BM?

With Christianity losing relevance in the West, Satanism too sort of loses it's power for those trying to be shocking or counter-culture.

I also have the impression that among younger folks, the whole image thing is less important than it used to be.


Last edited by Wrldeatr on Sat May 08, 2021 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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waiguoren
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 3:36 pm 
 

The worst for me are bands who anti-Jewish yet sing about the occult. The occult is the kabbalah (however you want to spell that) which comes from Jews in Spain. Or bands who sing about both paganism and the occult (no idea how these two separate topics are related, because they aren't).

I mean if you want to be "edgy" and "extreme" these days for sure you'd take an anti-Muslim stance. Singing about Satan is scaring no one.
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TheLoneForest
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 3:49 pm 
 

waiguoren wrote:
The worst for me are bands who anti-Jewish yet sing about the occult. The occult is the kabbalah (however you want to spell that) which comes from Jews in Spain. Or bands who sing about both paganism and the occult (no idea how these two separate topics are related, because they aren't).

I mean if you want to be "edgy" and "extreme" these days for sure you'd take an anti-Muslim stance. Singing about Satan is scaring no one.


But then people cry racist if they take an anti-Muslim stance

Apparently Christianity is the only thing people are allowed to be against

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MRmehman
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 3:56 pm 
 

Vadara wrote:
-BM is, frankly, one of the worst metal genres in terms of the amount of "checklist" bands, who just passionlessly tick off boxes as if they were filling out a checklist. So you have hordes of shitty BM that just does the satan stuff because "herpa derp that's what BM does so we gotta do it too".

Gotta agree. Maybe it was spooky in the 90's when a handful of bands (mostly in Scandinavia) were doing it, but these days it's just lazy. You might as well be singing about the Smurfs and insisting you play "trve blue metal."
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Vadara
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 4:01 pm 
 

I will say that the "Satanism" and "anti-Christianity" in BM is often completely toothless. The vast majority of these bands don't hate Christianity for the many valid reasons to despise it, they just...don't like it in some kind of vague way that doesn't really have any teeth to it.

But I guess that's to be expected when a certain Norwegian wrote the book on anti-christianity in BM, and he hated it because he was a deranged racist white nationalist, so when other bands copy the anti-christianity rhetoric but excise the racism (ignoring NSBM for now), they just have this frankly hollow thing--it's just anti-christianity for seemingly no actual reason, because they awkwardly sliced the rather uncomfortable reason for it out and didn't put anything back in.

BM really is a genre prone to devolving into pointless aesthetics with not much substance, isn't it, huh.

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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 4:03 pm 
 

TheLoneForest wrote:
waiguoren wrote:
The worst for me are bands who anti-Jewish yet sing about the occult. The occult is the kabbalah (however you want to spell that) which comes from Jews in Spain. Or bands who sing about both paganism and the occult (no idea how these two separate topics are related, because they aren't).

I mean if you want to be "edgy" and "extreme" these days for sure you'd take an anti-Muslim stance. Singing about Satan is scaring no one.


But then people cry racist if they take an anti-Muslim stance

Apparently Christianity is the only thing people are allowed to be against

Being anti-Muslim makes sense if you're living in a Muslim country. Being anti-Muslim if you're a white edge-lord from Norway where around 70% of the population belongs to the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Norway is just being racist.

Wrldeatr wrote:
Is it even relevant in BM?

With Christianity losing relevance in the West, Satanism too sort of loses it's power for those trying to be shocking or counter-culture.

I also have the impression that among younger folks, the whole imagine thing is less important than it used to be.

Is it? 60% of the people in my country still define themselves as Christians. Far from having lost relevance, specially if you consider the re-emergence of right wing across the whole world, which often has strong ties to religion.

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Wrldeatr
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 4:07 pm 
 

waiguoren wrote:
The worst for me are bands who anti-Jewish yet sing about the occult. The occult is the kabbalah (however you want to spell that) which comes from Jews in Spain. Or bands who sing about both paganism and the occult (no idea how these two separate topics are related, because they aren't).

I mean if you want to be "edgy" and "extreme" these days for sure you'd take an anti-Muslim stance. Singing about Satan is scaring no one.


The kabbalah may be the esoteric aspect of Judaism but there's more to the occult than kabbalah. The ancients Greeks already had their mystery religions and I'm pretty sure the ancient Egyptians had some esoteric aspects as well.

Not sure if being anti-Muslim is all that extreme considering that the Globar War on Terrorism is still a thing.

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Wrldeatr
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 4:18 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
Is it? 60% of the people in my country still define themselves as Christians. Far from having lost relevance, specially if you consider the re-emergence of right wing across the whole world, which often has strong ties to religion.


I would say it is. Sure, in most if not all countries of the West a majority people are going to be claim to be Christian, which doesn't mean they're practicing Christians. But if it's 60% now (and probably declining,) I bet it was 80% and above not all that long ago.

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Kutulu
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 6:07 pm 
 

TheLoneForest wrote:
Kutulu wrote:
Morgan Steinmeyer Hakansson wrote:
Black metal is about having a satanic philosophy; if you don't, then it's not black metal.


The saddest part is people still unironically believe that


The saddest part is you sitting up on your high horse with an undeserved sense of superiority.
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waiguoren
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 6:13 pm 
 

Wrldeatr wrote:
waiguoren wrote:
The worst for me are bands who anti-Jewish yet sing about the occult. The occult is the kabbalah (however you want to spell that) which comes from Jews in Spain. Or bands who sing about both paganism and the occult (no idea how these two separate topics are related, because they aren't).

I mean if you want to be "edgy" and "extreme" these days for sure you'd take an anti-Muslim stance. Singing about Satan is scaring no one.


The kabbalah may be the esoteric aspect of Judaism but there's more to the occult than kabbalah. The ancients Greeks already had their mystery religions and I'm pretty sure the ancient Egyptians had some esoteric aspects as well.

Not sure if being anti-Muslim is all that extreme considering that the Globar War on Terrorism is still a thing.


Curious about this because as far as I can see (or read, rather) the occult is based on the kabbalah. What mystery Greek religions are you talking about that are related to the occult? I will ignore your 'esoteric ancient Egyptians' thing because you are only pretty sure about that.

I won't dip my toes into the Muslim thing any further - I could, but fuck it. Better we all think the same way (and that way I can keep my job).
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TheLoneForest
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 8:44 pm 
 

Kutulu wrote:
The saddest part is you sitting up on your high horse with an undeserved sense of superiority.



LMAO Do you unironically believe black metal HAS to be Satanic or else it isn't black metal

What an edge lord holy shit.

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MetlaNZ
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 9:00 pm 
 

TheLoneForest wrote:
Kutulu wrote:
The saddest part is you sitting up on your high horse with an undeserved sense of superiority.



LMAO Do you unironically believe black metal HAS to be Satanic or else it isn't black metal

What an edge lord holy shit.

Black Metal is satanic metal by definition. No irony involved dude. It was so cool all the non satanic dudes wanted to copy it's aesthetics, hardly the satanic dudes faults that they were so fuckin cool.

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TheLoneForest
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 9:48 pm 
 

MetlaNZ wrote:
TheLoneForest wrote:
Kutulu wrote:
The saddest part is you sitting up on your high horse with an undeserved sense of superiority.



LMAO Do you unironically believe black metal HAS to be Satanic or else it isn't black metal

What an edge lord holy shit.

Black Metal is satanic metal by definition. No irony involved dude. It was so cool all the non satanic dudes wanted to copy it's aesthetics, hardly the satanic dudes faults that they were so fuckin cool.


Black Metal today is better than it's ever been, and it's because the 12 year old Satanist shit was bullied out of it

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Speed Metal Terror
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 9:54 pm 
 

TheLoneForest wrote:

Black Metal today is better than it's ever been, and it's because the 12 year old Satanist shit was bullied out of it


Huh? The Satan stuff is more rampant than ever. What are you talking about?
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TheLoneForest
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 10:12 pm 
 

Speed Metal Terror wrote:
TheLoneForest wrote:

Black Metal today is better than it's ever been, and it's because the 12 year old Satanist shit was bullied out of it


Huh? The Satan stuff is more rampant than ever. What are you talking about?


And it's bad. The ones that do away with it are infinitely more interesting

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Speed Metal Terror
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 10:20 pm 
 

TheLoneForest wrote:
Speed Metal Terror wrote:
TheLoneForest wrote:

Black Metal today is better than it's ever been, and it's because the 12 year old Satanist shit was bullied out of it


Huh? The Satan stuff is more rampant than ever. What are you talking about?


And it's bad. The ones that do away with it are infinitely more interesting


That's not really the point. You said it was bullied out of it and it's clear that this is false.
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MetlaNZ
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 10:31 pm 
 

TheLoneForest wrote:
Black Metal today is better than it's ever been, and it's because the 12 year old Satanist shit was bullied out of it

Nobody likes bullies dude

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doomicus
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 10:40 pm 
 

Satan and blasphemy is fun as fuck. It's relevant regardless of the subgenre of metal.
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TheLoneForest
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 12:14 am 
 

doomicus wrote:
Satan and blasphemy is fun as fuck. It's relevant regardless of the subgenre of metal.


I remember being 12 once

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Auch
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 1:40 am 
 

waiguoren wrote:
Wrldeatr wrote:
waiguoren wrote:
The worst for me are bands who anti-Jewish yet sing about the occult. The occult is the kabbalah (however you want to spell that) which comes from Jews in Spain. Or bands who sing about both paganism and the occult (no idea how these two separate topics are related, because they aren't).

I mean if you want to be "edgy" and "extreme" these days for sure you'd take an anti-Muslim stance. Singing about Satan is scaring no one.


The kabbalah may be the esoteric aspect of Judaism but there's more to the occult than kabbalah. The ancients Greeks already had their mystery religions and I'm pretty sure the ancient Egyptians had some esoteric aspects as well.

Not sure if being anti-Muslim is all that extreme considering that the Globar War on Terrorism is still a thing.


Curious about this because as far as I can see (or read, rather) the occult is based on the kabbalah. What mystery Greek religions are you talking about that are related to the occult? I will ignore your 'esoteric ancient Egyptians' thing because you are only pretty sure about that.

I won't dip my toes into the Muslim thing any further - I could, but fuck it. Better we all think the same way (and that way I can keep my job).


The best part of this was waiguoren showing what a piece of shit he his. He did no research into someone providing nuance to his shitty, ahistorical argument and then admitted that he hates Muslims and Middle Easterners so much that he’ll get fired for it BUT he’s also so self aware he won’t say it because he’s too scared to own up to his bigotry.

So what’s the point of the account man? It makes no sense

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motorsport
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 3:50 am 
 

TheLoneForest wrote:
doomicus wrote:
Satan and blasphemy is fun as fuck. It's relevant regardless of the subgenre of metal.


I remember being 12 once

You're reeking of "stop liking what I don't like" right now.

Grow up.

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In_Zane
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 5:22 am 
 

TheLoneForest wrote:
doomicus wrote:
Satan and blasphemy is fun as fuck. It's relevant regardless of the subgenre of metal.


I remember being 12 once

Probably because you're still 12 years old with that kind of response. :D
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InnesI
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 6:03 am 
 

At the start it was obviously effective. People reacted and being a Satanist was a statement regardless of how one defined it. People bought records based on how rebellious the cover art was because it felt forbidden and what is forbidden is exiting for children and teens (and surely for some adults as well). I am a little bit curious as to why it became such a huge thing in Sweden since the church hasn't been strong here since the 60's. But it did grow very big and in my teens it wasn't unusual to find the neighbourhood satanist type but few got really upset, they seemed to accept it well enough.

Huge difference compared to today when I work with teens and one of them are just now writing an essay on Satanism. He didn't even want to say this in front of his class since he was afraid they were going to judge him because of it. So I think the shock value actually has gone up. Probably in relation to the amount of immigrant groups present (since national Swedes are still very much non-religious in their approach but we have strong groups of Muslims and orthodox Christians).

The notion that black metal has to have satanic philosophy to be black metal is the stupidest argument from a time when the genre rules were set by a Norwegian teen/young adult who was obviously the weird kid on the block (and then others took after him like Morgan). There is always the debate on what satanic philosophy actually is as well. Is it
Stanisław Przybyszewski? Is it Ben Kadosh? Anton LaVey? Michael Aquino? Euronomyous? Or Watain? Or is it modern people misreading ancient traditions like the left hand path hindu (and buddhist) traditions?

I much prefer the black metal bands who focus on nature and the mystical feeling of the same. For me what has kept me interested in black metal is general its atmosphere and not its rebellious nature.
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Metal Archives resident goat fucker. Since adopting the name InnesI online I've also been called a satanist, communist, right wing, nazi-apologist, fascist, muslim, muslim lover, PC, neoliberal, boot licker and verbal masturbator! Feel free to add your projection too. :-)

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MetlaNZ
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 981
Location: Lost in Necropolis
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 7:57 am 
 

InnesI wrote:
The notion that black metal has to have satanic philosophy to be black metal is the stupidest argument from a time when the genre rules were set by a Norwegian teen/young adult who was obviously the weird kid on the block (and then others took after him like Morgan).

I think you're a bit confused, there's no argument here. It is what it is. Black metal is satanic metal. You can't change facts. The genre rules might have been reset in the modern sense by Euronymous and Co, but they were already in play throughout the 80's and we all know Venom defined it in '82 to begin with.

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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 8489
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 8:08 am 
 

Methuen wrote:
In addition to the above, it's also the easy/conservative/acceptable/safe choice; too much nature-und-soil stuff, and you've upset Reddit and the Twitterati, any whiff of anti-anything-but-Christianity and you're a somethingist, too much real-life stuff (standard bikes & booze NWOBHM lyrics etc) and you've upset the kvltists and are vntrve, too much Orthdox stuff and you're suspected of being a Christian and BURNTHEWITCH.

Always fun to read yet another interview with yet another 'new' BM band waffling on about satan - always funnier when they're grown adults waffling on about demonic energy or whatever, in between snipes at Christianity. At least some of the nature-heritage-and-not-politics-honest types go outside occasionally.

That's all well and good, because I recognise the need to communicate that shock aspect and all that. What really makes me laugh is how they're all about Satan - the ultimate icon of rebellion - and yet dogwhistle or outright propagate the creeds of some of the most conservative, backwards institutions and movements on Earth.
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