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LilTito
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Joined: Thu May 13, 2021 3:10 pm
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Location: Croatia
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 10:40 am 
 

Empyreal wrote:
I always enjoy that short length of these albums actually. Just efficient like a fucking knife. No fat at all - I think it's admirable.

More than anything BI is impressive for the level of polish and character in the writing. May not always be what metalheads want, but I find the songwriting to be ace.


So much this. I cannot stress how good is to see a death metal record that isn't 50 fckin minutes long..

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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 12:19 pm 
 

50 minutes isn't even that long. If you don't enjoy a 50 minutes long album, maybe the band isn't that good to begin with.

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LilTito
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Joined: Thu May 13, 2021 3:10 pm
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Location: Croatia
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 1:29 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
50 minutes isn't even that long. If you don't enjoy a 50 minutes long album, maybe the band isn't that good to begin with.

Fair enough. But I often find bands extending their welcome. Personally, I rarely come across something that can be interesting for 50 minutes+ straight.

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draconiondevil
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Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:21 pm
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 4:08 pm 
 

Blood Incantation is actually one of the few modern death metal bands that I'm a huge fan of. I love how they're able to write long progressive songs that are still interesting. I find that so many bands nowadays are hellbent on achieving that cavernous Incantation worship sound that they forget to write any memorable songs. Like yeah Tomb Mold are good when they're on but when the album's over I can hardly remember it.

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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 4:27 pm 
 

draconiondevil wrote:
Blood Incantation is actually one of the few modern death metal bands that I'm a huge fan of. I love how they're able to write long progressive songs that are still interesting. I find that so many bands nowadays are hellbent on achieving that cavernous Incantation worship sound that they forget to write any memorable songs. Like yeah Tomb Mold are good when they're on but when the album's over I can hardly remember it.

I know there's a Tomb Mold son in Cyberpunk 2077 and after 60h into the game I still haven't been able to recognize it.

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orphy
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 4:41 pm 
 

I love this band, both recorded and live. These guys caught my ear immediately with the "Interdimensional Extinction" EP, so much so I ended up being the first person to review them on MA. As I stated back then, they're just full of riffs, atmosphere, and the leads are pretty catchy too. They have a lot of technical prowess but they never seem to be "tech for tech's sake." I used to be really into technical death metal in my teens, but that stuff got super saturated for me, where as Blood Incantation took it back to a sound that was more up my alley than anything I had heard in years. So that's why I dig them a lot. Even after not listening to "Starspawn" for a while, when I came back it it, it still kicked my ass and ended up getting repeated listens.

Spectral Voice also rules hard, and much like BI, are playing a style that I absolutely love, and doing it right.
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draconiondevil
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 4:46 pm 
 

orphy wrote:
Spectral Voice also rules hard, and much like BI, are playing a style that I absolutely love, and doing it right.


Seconding this as well. The other projects that members of Blood Incantation are in, Spectral Voice and Black Curse, are both awesome too.

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Zurbum
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Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:42 am
Posts: 32
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 4:50 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
draconiondevil wrote:
Blood Incantation is actually one of the few modern death metal bands that I'm a huge fan of. I love how they're able to write long progressive songs that are still interesting. I find that so many bands nowadays are hellbent on achieving that cavernous Incantation worship sound that they forget to write any memorable songs. Like yeah Tomb Mold are good when they're on but when the album's over I can hardly remember it.

I know there's a Tomb Mold son in Cyberpunk 2077 and after 60h into the game I still haven't been able to recognize it.

there's a mod that allows you to see band and title of the song played :)

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Steve Nebraska
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 6:17 pm 
 

I always put them like Alice In Chains affect. When I seen them live in 2017 only a few people were watching and everyone else had their back turn to them. They even stop playing in the middle of one of their songs and walked off stage 15 minutes into their set. Then out of nowhere a overnight sensation. I don’t get what is great about them but I guess it’s a good story.

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rarezuzuh
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 7:06 pm 
 

What does that have to do with Alice in Chains?

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Slater922
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Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 7:31 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
draconiondevil wrote:
Blood Incantation is actually one of the few modern death metal bands that I'm a huge fan of. I love how they're able to write long progressive songs that are still interesting. I find that so many bands nowadays are hellbent on achieving that cavernous Incantation worship sound that they forget to write any memorable songs. Like yeah Tomb Mold are good when they're on but when the album's over I can hardly remember it.

I know there's a Tomb Mold son in Cyberpunk 2077 and after 60h into the game I still haven't been able to recognize it.

The song is Adaptive Manipulator. It's actually pretty fitting to the game.
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Steve Nebraska
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 8:13 pm 
 

rarezuzuh wrote:
What does that have to do with Alice in Chains?


When Alice In Chains tour with slayer, anthrax, and megadeth in 1991. They were getting booed and heckled by the crowd. Six months later they have a number one album on the charts and established a big fan base. That’s why I said that about blood incantation. Even though they didn’t get booed or anything but they were just ignored.

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Gemini 7 Rising
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 8:55 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
HeavenDuff wrote:
LilTito wrote:
Matter of fact, one of the reason I wanted to check BI out was because they apparently sounded like the 2 bands I mentioned, however to me BI sounds nothing like those 2


They have a score of 147 with Timeghoul in the similar artists section here on MA, and a 129 with Demilich. But I mean, we must all be imagining these similarities, right?


I don't really think they sound too much like either of them though. That's just the closest you can get because of the mood and aesthetics. Maybe Timeghoul I can see. But I don't think anyone ever really sounded much like Demilich that I heard - they're just one of those unique acts.


I think I agree. And taking nothing away from HeavenDuff's reference to the 'Similar Artists' tab, I use it quite often myself, but is there another band out there that really truly sounds like Demilich? I've yet to hear them.
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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 9:32 pm 
 

Steve Nebraska wrote:
rarezuzuh wrote:
What does that have to do with Alice in Chains?


When Alice In Chains tour with slayer, anthrax, and megadeth in 1991. They were getting booed and heckled by the crowd. Six months later they have a number one album on the charts and established a big fan base. That’s why I said that about blood incantation. Even though they didn’t get booed or anything but they were just ignored.

And that's only happened to Blood Incantation and Alice in Chains. No other band in the history of music started from the bottom and gained success after a while.

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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 9:38 pm 
 

Gemini 7 Rising wrote:
I think I agree. And taking nothing away from HeavenDuff's reference to the 'Similar Artists' tab, I use it quite often myself, but is there another band out there that really truly sounds like Demilich? I've yet to hear them.


I've never found a band that sounds exactly like them, but Chthe'ilist and early Gorguts is as close as it gets for me.

And again, I was not saying that Blood Incantation are exactly like Demilich, but that the two shared similarities and that BI obviously took influence from Demilich. Not so much in the song structures, but more so in the type of riffing. Blood Incantation, in my opinion, are much closer in sound to Timeghoul, even using the same combination of "occult" clean chants and death growls, delivered in similar fashions.

Blood Incantation also stated that they took influence from other bands, and I think that beyond the inspiration they took of Timeghoul and Demilich, you can also easily hear Altars of Madness, early Death and early Gorguts in there.

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Steve Nebraska
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Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:06 pm
Posts: 203
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 10:05 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
Steve Nebraska wrote:
rarezuzuh wrote:
What does that have to do with Alice in Chains?


When Alice In Chains tour with slayer, anthrax, and megadeth in 1991. They were getting booed and heckled by the crowd. Six months later they have a number one album on the charts and established a big fan base. That’s why I said that about blood incantation. Even though they didn’t get booed or anything but they were just ignored.

And that's only happened to Blood Incantation and Alice in Chains. No other band in the history of music started from the bottom and gained success after a while.


Love the sarcasm behind your reply when you didn’t clearly read what I said. I never fucking said that was the only band that ever happened too. I’m just saying from coming from being ignored or being heckled to becoming a overnight sensation. How many bands do you know that got heckled or ignored brutally then starting to have a big following? Not that many.

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insanewayne253
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 11:14 pm 
 

I also hear early Vital Remains in a lot of Blood Incantation especially Starspawn. I like it. It’s refreshing to head a band not go “hey look how fast and brutal we are” and are focusing on earworm riffs that stick in your head. I need to get Hidden History. I’m kinda late to the party on that one.

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Gemini 7 Rising
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Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:08 am
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 12:24 am 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Gemini 7 Rising wrote:
I think I agree. And taking nothing away from HeavenDuff's reference to the 'Similar Artists' tab, I use it quite often myself, but is there another band out there that really truly sounds like Demilich? I've yet to hear them.


I've never found a band that sounds exactly like them, but Chthe'ilist and early Gorguts is as close as it gets for me.

And again, I was not saying that Blood Incantation are exactly like Demilich, but that the two shared similarities and that BI obviously took influence from Demilich. Not so much in the song structures, but more so in the type of riffing. Blood Incantation, in my opinion, are much closer in sound to Timeghoul, even using the same combination of "occult" clean chants and death growls, delivered in similar fashions.

Blood Incantation also stated that they took influence from other bands, and I think that beyond the inspiration they took of Timeghoul and Demilich, you can also easily hear Altars of Madness, early Death and early Gorguts in there.


I think that's pretty accurate. And I need to add some early Gorguts to my menu. Maybe Chthe'ilist too- gave them a cursory listen early on but never followed through.

Fucking love Timeghoul though.
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Gemini 7 Rising
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 12:35 am 
 

insanewayne253 wrote:
I also hear early Vital Remains in a lot of Blood Incantation especially Starspawn. I like it. It’s refreshing to head a band not go “hey look how fast and brutal we are” and are focusing on earworm riffs that stick in your head. I need to get Hidden History. I’m kinda late to the party on that one.


I don't know if I agree yet but I've been spinning those first 3 [awesome] Vital Remains albums quite a bit lately, so I'll listen for the similarities next time.

And I haven't picked up Hidden History either but I think Starspawn's pretty great, so if it's even 80-90% as good as that I'd probably dig it.
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Eli_the_Destroyer
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 2:41 am 
 

This is a fair question! I personally like them, but I get why some think they are overrated. Since they have gotten popular, i have spent a fair amount of time thinking about why they are more popular than a lot of the death metal bands around them. The conclusion I have came to is that it was mostly the timing. Over the last 7-8 years or so, it seems that the younger death metal fans have discovered Demilich, and to a lesser extent, Timeghoul. Around that time, Blood Incantation pop up, clearly inspired by those bands, and the same people ate it up, along with some of the older fans such as myself. So yeah, timing, along with the fact that they also are a good band. Thats what i think. Any thoughts?

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Red_Death
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 5:31 am 
 

Gemini 7 Rising wrote:
I think I agree. And taking nothing away from HeavenDuff's reference to the 'Similar Artists' tab, I use it quite often myself, but is there another band out there that really truly sounds like Demilich? I've yet to hear them.

Your best bet is Nucleus. I only listened to Sentient, and it's obvious that this bands aims at sounding like Demilich (and pull it off in some aspects).
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Morn Of Solace
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 10:50 am 
 

Gemini 7 Rising wrote:

I think I agree. And taking nothing away from HeavenDuff's reference to the 'Similar Artists' tab, I use it quite often myself, but is there another band out there that really truly sounds like Demilich? I've yet to hear them.


Biolich's early demos, if you haven't heard them: some songs sound truly like lost Demilich tracks!

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Gemini 7 Rising
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 6:19 pm 
 

Red_Death wrote:
Gemini 7 Rising wrote:
I think I agree. And taking nothing away from HeavenDuff's reference to the 'Similar Artists' tab, I use it quite often myself, but is there another band out there that really truly sounds like Demilich? I've yet to hear them.

Your best bet is Nucleus. I only listened to Sentient, and it's obvious that this bands aims at sounding like Demilich (and pull it off in some aspects).


Cool, thanks! I'm listening to 'Sentient' right now via YouTube and agree- it's a pretty good approximation. The vocalist isn't able to go as low as the dude in Demilich, but it seems few can. The music and production though are close in a lot of ways.
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Gemini 7 Rising
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 6:25 pm 
 

Morn Of Solace wrote:
Gemini 7 Rising wrote:

I think I agree. And taking nothing away from HeavenDuff's reference to the 'Similar Artists' tab, I use it quite often myself, but is there another band out there that really truly sounds like Demilich? I've yet to hear them.


Biolich's early demos, if you haven't heard them: some songs sound truly like lost Demilich tracks!


Found some of their demos on YouTube- you're right, this is even closer to the true spirit of Demilich, though the demos I've heard so far are pretty rough. And the vocalist is in the right range if Demilich is what they're going for.
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Gemini 7 Rising
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 6:49 pm 
 

Eli_the_Destroyer wrote:
This is a fair question! I personally like them, but I get why some think they are overrated. Since they have gotten popular, i have spent a fair amount of time thinking about why they are more popular than a lot of the death metal bands around them. The conclusion I have came to is that it was mostly the timing. Over the last 7-8 years or so, it seems that the younger death metal fans have discovered Demilich, and to a lesser extent, Timeghoul. Around that time, Blood Incantation pop up, clearly inspired by those bands, and the same people ate it up, along with some of the older fans such as myself. So yeah, timing, along with the fact that they also are a good band. Thats what i think. Any thoughts?

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I think you're probably onto something and, as they say, "timing is everything". It's true, just look at some of the great bands (of any musical style or genre really) who were too soon and never made it, only to have others come along shortly thereafter and either directly rip them off or do something very similar and succeed massively with it.

Pantera & Exhorder spring to mind, but I won't delve too much into that because I don't know the exact timing and circumstances of how it all played out, plus there are various factors and elements which no one can really quantify, but obviously everyone knows who Pantera is and few know of Exhorder. But listen side-by-side and they're pretty damn close in many respects, and many will argue Exhorder is ultimately the stronger band.

Also, if you like movies, the Coen Brother's 'Inside Llewyn Davis' tackles pretty much the exact topic of timing as we see the character of Llewyn Davis is right there on the crest of the NYC/Greenwich Village folk music scene of the early 60s just before it explodes and becomes immensely popular and trend-setting. And he's kind of an asshole, but talented and hardworking and ahead of the scene. But (spoiler alert) by the end, he's completely broke and burnt out just as a young Bob Dylan and similar artists swoop in to herald the arrival of this entire movement. Great movie.

And also, it goes the other way too. Some are great but too late. Exodus kind of famously missed their window, didn't they, when they were right there with (and possibly ahead of) Metallica in the early early days of speed/thrash metal.

This topic might make a good thread, though maybe it's already been done. (which would make me too late!!)
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 9:30 pm 
 

Gemini 7 Rising wrote:
And also, it goes the other way too. Some are great but too late. Exodus kind of famously missed their window, didn't they, when they were right there with (and possibly ahead of) Metallica in the early early days of speed/thrash metal.


If they had released Bonded By Blood a bit earlier like it should have been, maybe they could have been bigger, and perhaps they would have been in instead of Anthrax, or maybe it would have been a big five, but to think that they would have been bigger than Metallica, I very much doubt that. In particular, Baloff and Zetro had a ceiling to the appeal of their vocal styles.

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Gemini 7 Rising
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 10:45 pm 
 

Agreed, I wasn't implying they would've been bigger than Metallica. Metallica was simply the superior band and they had better songs. I'm just saying Exodus may well have been bigger within the thrash scene had they managed to release 'Bonded...' sooner and had a strong follow-up waiting in the wings. A lot of "what ifs" but, as you said, better timing and maybe it would've have been the Big Five.

Plus "success breeds success" or "nothing succeeds like success", whatever the old adage is.

Cannibal Corpse is a great example of right place, right time. In the late 80s they're right on the precipice of this death metal movement, they appear in a hit movie, get dragged through the press by a presidential candidate (loads of free press and notoriety) gain enough clout to replace their "weak links" (members they felt weren't cutting it), build a better band, and here they are still going strong today. Hardworking, talented and badass for sure, but great luck and timing also had a lot to do with it.
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caspian
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 12:18 am 
 

I reckon one thing BI do with their sound is that they're pretty catchy and accessible for what they do, while still being fairly out there in general. Someone mentioned Metallica above and you could kinda, vaguely liken them to Metallica circa '84 in that regard- respectably heavy, quite close to the edge of what's being done, while still being relatively accessible.

And yeah, fun riffs, good songs, good aesthetic, live show rules (apparently).. I don't think they're the greatest band in the world but they're certainly a heap of fun; I get why they've gotten so big. THis is more or less how I think about Spectral and Tomb Mold too.
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Y_owi_E
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 12:46 am 
 

Whether Blood Incantation have used a niche of death metal that wasn't popular and carried it on, or sound like a heap of other bands, or sound completely original, I just don't get into them. I've tried to like them, but it just hasn't happened. That doesn't mean they're bad. It's just they don't appeal to me.

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Hexenmacht46290
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 1:22 am 
 

If the question is “why are they so popular?”, part of that is, I’m guessing, good PR. Most metal sites writers love them, probably because they happen to know each other in real life. I don’t think Dark Descent is throwing around payola money. So, yes, they get a lot of hype, but the other part is that they do something that few other death metal bands do. They are highbrow death metal that is less “technical,” and more “progressive.”

They aren’t the only band to do this, and weren’t the first. But, they happened to be in the right place at the right time, playing weird avant-garde riffs, combined with some catchy riffs, and song structure and atmosphere that people actually like. Also, they were on tour all the time, putting on an entertaining show. I think they deserve the hype more, than a lot of the other modern death metal bands that get hyped.
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Zerberus
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 3:30 am 
 

It may just be the musical style, but I can't really get into Blood Incantation either. Saw them live with Spectral Voice once and it was decent enough.

Oddly I like a lot of the bands that are often mentioned in the same breath as BI, like Timeghoul, Morbid Angel, Tomb Mold, Nocturnus etc. But Blood Incantation hasn't struck a chord with me at all.
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Vadara
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 2:15 pm 
 

Frankly, I don't think 35 minutes or so is that short for an album...I know albums I like that are like 30 minutes or even 25 or so.

As for BI themselves, they're pretty neat. I do feel their music has a tendency to be a procession of riffs that don't feel super connected together, but I also feel that surreal tone where the music doesn't form a totally coherent narrative is kinda the point? Vocals are a bit weak though. I never liked the typical DM vocal style anyway, though. Sometimes they meander a bit too much with their slow atmospheric sections, for one critique.

This is pretty catchy stuff, and pretty accessible by DM standards, it makes sense why it's popular. It's not hideously dark and grotesque but isn't toothless by any means. I know several people who would absolutely down for this that aren't really into DM. My Stoner-lover friend would probably dig the shit out of this, I should show him this band.

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narsilianshard
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 2:19 pm 
 

narsilianshard wrote:
LilTito wrote:
I generally agree with you, but I am a big fan of Demilich and Chthe'ilist but I just don't hear any of that in Blood Incantation.

Your OP said their style was perfected 30 years ago. If not by Demilich, then who? Who perfected this niche style of cosmic, progressive death metal in 1991?

Still waiting on a response to this :)

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Erosion of Humanity
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 4:05 pm 
 

so i guess my biggest gripe with this band, besides the massive dick sucking hype train, is that i find them excruciatingly boring in a live setting and just meh on record. have never once listened to their second album until right now as i type this, and yeah, its just ok. they have some really great elements and i want to like them but what really kills this band for me is their live shows. it feels like every song is 18 minutes long guitar wankery passages followed by some cool blasting and whatnot, then more overzealous fellatio of the guitars, and i say this as someone who rather enjoys the weedley wee tech death style. their songs feel fucking ENDLESS and are difficult to endure in a live setting. maybe thats just my add raddled brain, or maybe im not high society enough for this brand of death metal, idk. they just fucking annoy me.

that being said, other than demilich, i enjoy almost every other band on their similar artists tab. tomb mold is kinda meh, and the chasm has the same effect on me as BI but otherwise im good with it. i think i prefer the other vein that cropped up from the same roots, bands like nucleus, chthe'ilist, mithras, inoculation, warp chamber, etc etc do way for me than this band. i also happen to love timeghoul and finn death, though i prefer my finn death to be more down and dirty than techy. i guess i see the appeal and understand why BI are so huge but fuck if i could stand sitting through another listen of one of their albums or seeing them live again.
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LilTito
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu May 13, 2021 3:10 pm
Posts: 44
Location: Croatia
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 5:41 pm 
 

narsilianshard wrote:
narsilianshard wrote:
LilTito wrote:
I generally agree with you, but I am a big fan of Demilich and Chthe'ilist but I just don't hear any of that in Blood Incantation.

Your OP said their style was perfected 30 years ago. If not by Demilich, then who? Who perfected this niche style of cosmic, progressive death metal in 1991?

Still waiting on a response to this :)

Again, Demilich sounds nothing like this band. When I said that the style has been perfected, I was thinking of just ordinary OSDM, which BI plays. "Cosmic progressive" whatever is not a real genre, and having an ambient intro or outro doesn't make a band progressive. Maybe I am going insane but I just don't hear what other people are describing..

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narsilianshard
Veteran

Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:22 pm
Posts: 2680
Location: PDX
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 6:26 pm 
 

If you honestly don't hear any difference between this:

And this:

Then yeah, you probably are going insane. It's okay to not like them, but saying they do nothing different than the "ordinary" death metal bands of the early 90s means you're either not arguing in good faith, or you don't have a grasp on the very basics of musical understanding. It's like saying you can't see any difference between the 1978 animated Lord of the Rings films and the ones from the 2000s.

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LithoJazzoSphere
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 2064
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 2:00 am 
 

This thread has inspired me to run through their discography again, and while I previously thought their albums were a bit closer, HHotHR is rapidly taking the lead now for me, with meatier production and more atmospherics.

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HeavenDuff
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 2446
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 9:12 am 
 

caspian wrote:
I reckon one thing BI do with their sound is that they're pretty catchy and accessible for what they do


This was not mentionned before, but I think we should put emphasis on this.

Blood Incantation benefited from a good timing, of course, as they were playing and furthering a kind of death metal that was not really explored all that much and that was gaining in popularity as metalheads, like myself, were discovering Demilich and Timeghoul. The timing was perfect. Add to this some fantastic musicianship, quality riffs and songwriting, amazing live performances and you've got a recipe for success. But like caspian said, BI is also quite catchy and accessible for a band that plays a brand of death metal that was otherwise rather hermetic. Sure, they sound a lot like Timeghoul, and to an extent, like Demilich, but they have these melody driven sections that string together all the osdm sections, and this really helps build big soundscapes and a feeling of progression as you are being lead through the album with melodies and themes that repeat throughout the whole thing.

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SladeCraven
Metalhead

Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 1:51 pm
Posts: 526
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 2:01 pm 
 

HHOTHR is great. I'm not familiar with their other works, but that album is solid. Honestly, Blood Incantation and Burial Invocation are two of the freshest death metal acts I've heard in a while. I'm honestly wondering what's not to like, but to each their own.
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