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Slater922
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
Posts: 2342
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:42 pm 
 

When the album ranking threads were peaking in popularity years ago, I was surprised no one brought up the godfathers of metal. Well now that they seemed to be regaining some popularity with the Overkill and Annihilator album ranking threads, I figured I'd finally bring up this thread to see which Sabbath albums everyone loves or hates. Here's my list:

BEST: Master of Reality
2: Black Sabbath
3: Paranoid
4: Sabbath Bloody Sabbath
5: Heaven and Hell
6: Sabotage
7: Vol 4
8: Born Again
9: Dehumanizer
10: Mob Rules
11: Headless Cross
12: The Eternal Idol
13: Seventh Star
14: Forbidden
15: Cross Purposes
16: Tyr
17: Never Say Die!
18: 13
WORST: Technical Ecstasy

Technical Ecstasy is their most forgettable album, and 13 gave me a strong "they're not as good as they were in to 70s" vibe. NSD is stronger than Technical Ecstasy, but still weak when compared to their other albums. From Tyr to Headless Cross, they're great, but each album has its own issues (with Tyr having the most prominent issues). Mob Rules is a fantastic Dio-era Sabbath record, but not as good as HAH. Dehumanizer and Born Again are great, but still not as good as the classics. Starting with the classic records, I feel like Vol 4 is the weakest. Sabotage is great, but Heaven and Hell? Sorry Ozzy, but Dio blows Sabotage out of the water. SBS is fantastic, but "Looking for Today" is a bit mediocre and brings the album down. The first three Sabbath records are the best and are classics in their own right, but Paranoid has gotten me tired out with how many times "Paranoid", "Iron Man", and "War Pigs" have been played :ugh:. The eponymous debut is a legend, both musically and historically, but I don't find it as scary as everyone else does. Yes, the cover and the first track can give you goosebumps the first time, but after that, you get used to it. Master of Reality has no bad tracks per say, and the stoner/doom atmosphere makes it the perfect record for some 70s nostalgia.
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DoomMetalAlchemist
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Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:10 am
Posts: 2860
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:53 pm 
 

1. Black Sabbath
2. Paranoid
3. Master of Reality
4. Mob Rules
5. Heaven and Hell
6. Dehumanizer
7. Never Say Die
8. Vol 4
9. Sabotage
10. Sabbath Bloody Sabbath
11. Cross Purposes
12. Tyr
13. Headless Cross
14. Technical Ecstasy
15. Born Again
16. Forbidden
17. The Eternal Idol
18. The Devil You Know
19. 13
20. Seventh Star

Honestly the first three can go in any order, as all three are basically tied as my three favorite albums of all time. But put a gun to my head I'd say the debut is the best because I don't think it has any filler in it. Paranoid has the drum solo for filler, and Master of Reality has Orchid for filler. But all three of those albums are immortal. To me Never Say Die is really underrated. I used to hate Technical Ecstasy and Headless Cross but have since warmed up to them both. But they still don't rival the classics. Forbidden I don't think is anywhere near as bad as people say, it's got some good tracks and I think Eternal Idol is pretty forgettable.

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Cosmic_Equilibrium
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:03 pm
Posts: 842
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:25 pm 
 

1) Sabotage
2) Master Of Reality
3) Vol. 4
4) Dehumanizer
5) Paranoid
6) Heaven and Hell
7) Mob Rules
8) Sabbath Bloody Sabbath
9) Black Sabbath
10) The Devil You Know (released under the Heaven and Hell name)
11) Born Again
12) 13
13) Technical Ecstasy
14) Cross Purposes
15) Never Say Die!

Everything else I really need to rate again though they are more Iommi solo albums than anything else. Cross Purposes has Geezer on it so that qualifies as a Sabbath record IMO.

Dehumanizer the most underrated record in the discography, savage album

SBS and the debut I like but honestly the other four albums in the 70-75 years are considerably stronger.

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MetlaNZ
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Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 2696
Location: Lost in Necropolis
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:17 am 
 

Black Sabbaths first six albums with Ozzy are legend, a great run and a great progression of albums. After a two album weak patch that resulted in the sacking of Oz, they reinvented themselves with Dio for two awesome albums before disintegrating again dammit, but later reuniting twice for a couple of really good albums.
Born Again was a cool one off with Gillan resulting in some great songs but a really shitty production. More disunity in the ranks killed off any ideas of that unlikely partnership ever lasting. Seventh Star was pretty good with the great Glenn Hughes singing (I've recently become a big fan of his solo albums). If you like a bit of hard rock it's definitely worth checking out.
The Tony (The Cat) Martin era is the real hidden gem, but I got into that era late and I regret that. If you give those albums a chance, you'll discover that scattered over them are some fantastic songs. Tyr in particular kicks ass.
13... a lot of folk around here don't like it, and if I'm being honest it's a bunch of lazy rehashed ideas. However, I went in with very low expectations and discovered I quite like the album, go figure. It's not the great grand finale everyone wanted tho. Nevermind. Anyway...

Black Sabbath fuckin rules!

1. Master of Reality
2. Paranoid
3. Vol 4
4. Sabbath Bloody Sabbath
5. Sabotage
6. Black Sabbath
7. Heaven and Hell
8. Mob Rules
9. Dehumanizer
10. The Devil You Know
11. Born Again
12. Tyr
13. Headless Cross
14. The Eternal Idol
15. Cross Purposes
16. Forbidden
17. Seventh Star
18. 13
19. Technical Ecstasy
20. Never Say Die

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lordcatfish
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:44 pm
Posts: 1461
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:54 am 
 

Sabotage
Paranoid
Master of Reality
Black Sabbath
Vol 4
Sabbath Bloody Sabbath
Heaven & Hell
Mob Rules

At this point I'd get a little lost trying to rank them. I'd probably go for Technical Ecstasy and Never Say Die next purely because despite being a big drop off, they still have some great songs. Seventh Star is also enjoyable enough. I suppose 13 would come into the discussion around here as well.

Of the rest, Dehumanizer is a slog, Born Again is one of the worst of the lot, and the Martin era does little for me.
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Trashy_Rambo
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Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:04 pm
Posts: 1821
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 8:01 am 
 

I find it really hard to compare across eras, as they're all so distinct. Just putting them into tiers might make it easier.

God tier:
Paranoid
Master of Reality
Sabbath Bloody Sabbath
Heaven and Hell
Black Sabbath
The Eternal Idol

Very good:
Vol 4
Mob Rules
Dehumanizer

Good:
Sabotage
Headless Cross
Tyr
The Devil You Know

Okay:
13

Bad:
Technical Ecstasy
Never Say Die
Forbidden

I'm not super familiar tier:
Born Again
Seventh Star
Cross Purposes

It seems that I like Sabotage less than most. Hole in the Sky and Symptom of the Universe are fucking colossal, but the rest is just "fine" for me.

Dehumanizer has some absolutely incredible tracks like Computer God, I, and Master of Insanity, but it's got a couple of weak tracks that keep it from being a top tier Sabbath album. I don't love Letters from Earth, and although I like it thematically, Time Machine just isn't that good.

I think Sabbath Bloody Sabbath is my favorite Ozzy era album. It kind of sounds like Black Sabbath focused through a weird prog lense or something. It's probably one of my favorite productions of all time, and I'm honestly the world's number one Fluff apologist. It's just so comfy!
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Evoken
Metalhead

Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 11:02 am
Posts: 970
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:28 am 
 

Here's mine. Over the years I've gotten pretty tired of Ozzy's vocals, so even though most of the albums he's on are absolute classics, sometimes I'm just not in the mood to hear him. Whereas the Dio albums still sound fresh to me, so I end up playing them more. But I can't deny that Master of Reality is the band's all-time best, and Sabbath Bloody Sabbath is the band at their most mature songwriting. Everything after my #10 entry I'm a little fuzzy on the order - as I rarely play those albums - they're either forgettable or are a mixed bag of good and bad songs. But they all have something I like about them and I don't consider any of them awful, other than Born Again. That one sucks - the vocals aren't my thing, I find the songs completely dull, and the production is atrocious. I know Iommi is considering a remix of it one day, which maybe will bring some new life into it, but I'm not sure it'll fix it enough for me to like it.

1. Master of Reality
2. Sabbath Bloody Sabbath
3. Heaven & Hell
4. Mob Rules
5. Vol. 4
6. Paranoid
7. Black Sabbath
8. Sabotage
9. Dehumanizer
10. The Devil You Know
11. Never Say Die
12. The Eternal Idol
13. Headless Cross
14. Tyr
15. Cross Purposes
16. 13
17. Technical Ecstasy
18. Forbidden
19. Seventh Star
20. Born Again


Last edited by Evoken on Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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jimbies
Noose Springsteen

Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:52 pm
Posts: 4145
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:48 am 
 

If we are going to do these again, can we make them like the Slayer one I made where there is a point system and some sort of data collected for what the board's general preference is?

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=130388&hilit=slayer+ranking

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Slater922
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
Posts: 2342
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:50 am 
 

jimbies wrote:
If we are going to do these again, can we make them like the Slayer one I made where there is a point system and some sort of data collected for what the board's general preference is?

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=130388&hilit=slayer+ranking

I’ll consider adding in a point system, but I'm really bad at tallying up the numbers for a bunch of albums. Maybe you or BH can do it.
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gestapothrash
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:55 am
Posts: 1287
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:00 pm 
 

I find it very hard to compare the eras of Ozzy and Dio as I feel they're both apples and oranges, but I'll try give my most honest go at this.

1. Sabotage - my favourite Sabbath album of all time, there isn't a single track on here that I don't like. Also Ozzy's voice is PEAK here, singing in the higher register (unlike the first few albums)
2. Heaven and Hell - a completely different tier of songwriting on this album, great riffs and solos from Iommi. The band became more than a one trick pony on this album.
3. Sabbath Bloody Sabbath - the first album where Ozzy started singing in the higher register, great tracks on here.
4. Paranoid - a solid album from front to back with no filler whatsoever.
5. Black Sabbath - that album jacket scares the shit out of me, the title track is classic.
6. Master of Reality - great album, but sometimes gets a little boring for my tastes.
7. Mob Rules - not as good as Heaven and Hell, but still got some classic tracks on here.
8. Born Again - the partnership of Gillan and Iommi/Geezer was too short lived. Love the album cover here too.
9. Dehumanizer - TV Crimes is a great song, love the production on this album.
10. Vol. 4 - the pinnacle of the cocaine era of Sabbath, album can come across as a tad boring and uninspired.
11. Never Say Die - the title track is OK, Johnny Blade isn't so bad either. Rest of the album is pretty forgettable.
12. Techincal Ecstasy - I couldn't even name a song off this album because it didn't do a single thing for me.

Two wildcards I'd love to add in:
Live Evil - The version of Children of the Sea on this album kills everything around it. Absolute classic, this album rarely leaves my turntable.
Live Asbury Park 1975 - This show was recorded just before the release of Sabotage, and it is in my opinion the best representation of mid 70s Sabbath. Killing Yourself to Live and Megalomania being played 10x harder and heavier than on SBS and Sabotage? Yes please. This live album is the EPITOME of Bill Ward as a drummer.
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MetalVermont
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:23 pm
Posts: 255
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:21 pm 
 

I’ll rate the ones I know well.

1. Master of Reality
2. Paranoid (could be 1)
3. Mob Rules
4. H & H
5. SBS
6. Dehumanizer
7. Sabotage
8. Vol 4
9. 13
10. Born Again

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Luvers
Writes generic (and possibly meandering) posts

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:34 pm
Posts: 542
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:35 pm 
 

I accept my list will not be anything like others here, but I do not have it the way I do to be contrary. I first discovered Black Sabbath in 1983 with Born Again and maybe it was because of that admittedly unique experience that I have never been partial to the Ozzy era. Truth be told however, I just find Ozzy's voice to be grating and distracting to what is otherwise some very incredible music.

  1. BEST: HEADLESS CROSS!
  2. The Eternal Idol
  3. Cross Purposes
  4. Heaven and Hell
  5. Sabotage
  6. Mob Rules
  7. Sabbath Bloody Sabbath
  8. Tyr
  9. Black Sabbath
  10. Born Again
  11. Seventh Star
  12. Vol 4
  13. Dehumanizer
  14. Paranoid
  15. Never Say Die!
  16. Forbidden
  17. Technical Ecstasy
  18. 13
  19. WORST: Master of Reality
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hells_unicorn
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Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:32 pm
Posts: 3056
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:56 pm 
 

Here's my list, similarly to Luvers, I discovered Black Sabbath a bit late in the game (in my case it was in the mid 90s, right around the time that Cross Purposes was released), and the first album that I heard in its entirety was actually Heaven And Hell, which I bought by mistake thinking it was an Ozzy album as I was auditioning for a Sabbath tribute band my freshman year in high school, but instantly fell in love with due to Ronnie James Dio's incredible vocals. Even though I've developed a deep appreciation for all of the material released in the 70s, even and including the two weaker albums at the tail end of said decade, I never really thought that Ozzy was in the same league as any of the other vocalists involved with Sabbath, even Glenn Hughes for that matter. He just didn't seem to really come into his own as a singer until after he left Sabbath and started putting out solo albums. Furthermore, I know that it is generally stipulated that Seventh Star is more of a Tony Iommi solo album, but honestly, I think a greater case could be made that 13 isn't a true Sabbath album, but rather an Ozzy and Sharon Osbourne project featuring Iommi and Butler. Aside from the songwriting being extremely lame, contrived and way too derivative of past material, the fact that they brought in that hack Brad Wilk as a stand-in for Bill Ward was a bad joke.

1. Heaven And Hell
2. Headless Cross
3. Mob Rules
4. Sabbath Bloody Sabbath
5. Dehumanizer
6. Sabotage
7. The Devil You Know
8. Master Of Reality
9. Tyr
10. The Eternal Idol
11. Paranoid
12. Cross Purposes
13. Black Sabbath
14. Born Again
15. Vol. 4
16. Seventh Star
17. Forbidden
18. Technical Ecstasy
19. Never Say Die!
20. 13
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joppek
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Location: Suomi Finland Perkele
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 5:01 am 
 

with sabbath, my taste happens to correlate very well with chronology up to, and including sabotage - i'm not familiar enough with the rest of their discography to rank anything beyond that tho'... i should really remedy that some day
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An Ferbasach
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 11:43 pm
Posts: 58
Location: Scotland
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:02 am 
 

1. Master of Reality
2. Vol. 4
3. Sabbath Bloody Sabbath
4. Paranoid
5. Sabotage
6. Black Sabbath
7. Heaven and Hell
8. Mob Rules
9. Dehumanizer
10. The Devil You Know
11. Born Again
12. Technical Ecstasy
13. Never Say Die!
14. 13

The first 6 Ozzy albums are some of my favourite albums of all time. I'd rank the debut just a fraction below the top 5 albums as it's a bit more bluesy and the two cover songs are a little bit weaker than the other tracks.

Heaven and Hell is a great beginning for the Dio era with some top tier Sabbath tracks, Heaven and Hell, Children of the Sea & Die Young in particular. Mob Rules is a slight step down and a few tracks are skippable but The Sign of the Southern Cross is great and Falling Off the Edge of the World is probably my favourite Dio Sabbath track.

Dehumanizer and The Devil You Know are both really solid albums but I don't think they reach the same high points as the first two Dio Sabbath albums, though I and Bible Black get pretty close.

The final 4 albums on my list are nowhere the quality of the first 10 but Zero the Hero from Born Again and Dirty Women from Technical Ecstasy are worth repeated listens.

I'm not too familiar with Seventh Star or the Tony Martin albums so I've excluded them.

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ZenoMarx
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:38 am
Posts: 853
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:17 am 
 

joppek wrote:
with sabbath, my taste happens to correlate very well with chronology up to, and including sabotage - i'm not familiar enough with the rest of their discography to rank anything beyond that tho'... i should really remedy that some day
I hear you. I'm pretty much the same. It's the first six, then Born Again, and then pretty much all the rest as a blur. I've tried many times with the 80s, but my heart is never in it. The first six and Born Again are in my soul, though.

I never cared for the production on Mob Rules etc, but Live from Radio City Music Hall changed how I hear those songs. If I'd first heard those 80's tracks like that, I'd have a different relationship with those albums.

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Opus
Metal freak

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Posts: 4266
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 3:20 pm 
 

Mob Rules
Speak of the Devil
Heaven and Hell
Headless Cross
Tyr

That's all the Sabbath I need.
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alexo666
Metalhead

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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 3:32 pm 
 

1. Sabotage
2. Master
3. Heaven And Hell
4. Paranoid
5. SBS
6. Vol 4
7. Sabbath
8. Mob Rules
9. Dehumanizer
10. The Devil You Know
11. Born Again (original raw mix)
12. Born Again (released mix)
13. 13
14. Never Say Die
15. Technical Ecstasy
16. Everything else in between Gillan and the Ozzy reunion.
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MRmehman
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 3:49 pm 
 

1. Paranoid
2. Sabotage
3. S/T
4. Heaven and Hell
5. Masters of Reality
6. Vol. 4
7. Never Say Die
8. 13

Those first 6 could really be in any order. It still blows me away that so much of Paranoid was just shit they made up to fill the album out. That album is incredible, it's weird to think it was so slap-dash.
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brain hammer
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:55 pm
Posts: 174
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:36 pm 
 

I’ve done this ranking enough times over the years, I can do this by memory while driving at this point. Top ten always remains the same, with time I’ve come to really appreciate Born Again and Dehumanizer. In fact, I was listening to that album earlier today and thought about the rankings. Here goes again…

1. Black Sabbath
2. Sabotage
3. Paranoid
4. Master Of Reality
5. Vol. 4
6. Sabbath Bloody Sabbath
7. Technical Ecstasy
8. Never Say Die!
9. Heaven And Hell
10. Mob Rules
11. Born Again
12. Dehumanizer
13. The Devil You Know
14. Eternal Idol
15. Headless Cross
16. TYR
17. Seventh Star
18. Cross Purposes
19. Forbidden
20. 13

Also wanted to add that Eternal Idol is underrated, even by Tony Martin standards, and Cross Purposes is overrated by the same measure. I find that album to be terribly dull. Forbidden and 13 are definitely the bottom of the Sab barrel.

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oldmetalhead
Metalhead

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Posts: 839
Location: Helltown, United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:04 pm 
 

This is hard, I feel like I have to run two concurrent lists like I'm writing a GRRM novel in the A Song of Ice and Fire volume, lol

First 6, Don't care after that. First 2 with Dio, like a new band. Born Again, I like a lot again just like the title it was a re-birth. Everything else including the other Dio albums and the Ozzy return and Tony Martin and whoever sang for them, I have them but they need to be dusted off.

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DoomMetalAlchemist
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Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:10 am
Posts: 2860
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:20 am 
 

A LOT of REALLY hot takes in this thread....

Luvers wrote:
[*]WORST: Master of Reality


I have no words for this. Luvers I wouldn't be surprised if you were literally the only human being in the history of Sabbath having existed to have this opinion.

Opus wrote:
Mob Rules
Speak of the Devil
Heaven and Hell
Headless Cross
Tyr

That's all the Sabbath I need.


What is this vote, "Ozzy's cool, but fuck Tony Iommi except a few albums"?

brain hammer wrote:

Also wanted to add that Eternal Idol is underrated, even by Tony Martin standards, and Cross Purposes is overrated by the same measure. I find that album to be terribly dull.


In all of my years of discussing Sabbath online (and there have been many), Cross Purposes is the perpetually ignored. Everyone rants and raves about how awesome Headless Cross is, Eternal Idol is usually lauded as the next best Tony Martin era album, Tyr as the favorite for a select few, and Forbidden as the biggest abomination mankind has created. No one even brings up Cross Purposes, not negatively, not positively. No one cares about it either way.

Separate from hot takes but rather maybe just some misinformation:

MRmehman wrote:

It still blows me away that so much of Paranoid was just shit they made up to fill the album out. That album is incredible, it's weird to think it was so slap-dash.


I'm only aware of the title track being a slap-dashidly written song to fill out the album. They turned in the other seven songs to the label as the album, the label was like, "You guys need one more song, this is too short" then they wrote the title track in like 5 minutes. From what I remember reading in interviews is that about half the songs on Paranoid were already written by the time they recorded the debut.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:06 am 
 

Sabotage
SBS
Master of Reality
Self-titled
Paranoid
Volume 4
Heaven & Hell
Born Again
Mob Rules
Headless Cross
Tyr
Cross Purposes
The Devil You Know
Eternal Idol
Seventh Star
Dehumanizer
Technical Ecstasy
13
Never Say Die
Forbidden

They've got so much amazing stuff that pretty much everything down through Eternal Idol on this list, I've played and thought 'this totally fucking rules' at one time or another. Ozzy era's always gonna be the best for me but I don't want to disparage anything except the bottom three on this list. Sabotage and SBS have to be my best picks - truly imaginative, free music from masters. "Megalomania," "Symptom of the Universe," "Spiral Architect" - it hardly gets better than that. Sabotage in particular is like the sound of the world ending when it gets to its most dramatic moments.
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idunnosomename
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:47 pm
Posts: 635
Location: England
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:18 pm 
 

Purely my personal favourites, not objective quality and impact on metal history, because of course the first six would be on top there.

Heaven and Hell
Tyr
Headless Cross
Dehumanizer
Sabbath Bloody Sabbath
Cross Purposes
Mob Rules
Master of Reality
The Eternal Idol
Forbidden
Paranoid
Born Again
Black Sabbath
Sabotage
Seventh Star
Vol 4
Technical Ecstasy
Never Say Die!

Forbidden is unfairly maligned, the band had a rough time recording it thus happy to diss it, doesn't mean it's objectively bad in itself.

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Immortal666
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 6:32 am
Posts: 942
Location: Philippines
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:30 pm 
 

Here's how I would rank them:

1) Master of Reality
2) Black Sabbath
3) Paranoid
4) Heaven and Hell
5) Sabbath Bloody Sabbath
6) Sabotage
7) Vol. 4
8) Mob Rules
9) Born Again
10) Dehumanizer
11) The Eternal Idol
12) Headless Cross
13) Cross Purposes
13) Seventh Star
14) Never Say Die!
15) 13
16) Forbidden

Haven't heard these yet:

Technical Ecstacy
Tyr

I'd say Master of Reality opened my ears to Black Sabbath as it was the first proper album of theirs that I listened to. My first exposure to Sabbath was thru a greatest hits compilation, the one with the painting of Triumph of Death as the cover. And while it contained the 'hits', it was Master of Reality that caught my fancy with its dark vibe and excellent track listing.

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brain hammer
Metal newbie

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:10 am 
 

DoomMetalAlchemist wrote:
A LOT of REALLY hot takes in this thread....

brain hammer wrote:

Also wanted to add that Eternal Idol is underrated, even by Tony Martin standards, and Cross Purposes is overrated by the same measure. I find that album to be terribly dull.


In all of my years of discussing Sabbath online (and there have been many), Cross Purposes is the perpetually ignored. Everyone rants and raves about how awesome Headless Cross is, Eternal Idol is usually lauded as the next best Tony Martin era album, Tyr as the favorite for a select few, and Forbidden as the biggest abomination mankind has created. No one even brings up Cross Purposes, not negatively, not positively. No one cares about it either way.


Have to disagree. I’ve seen multiple people over the years praising Cross Purposes and Cross Purposes Live as being these hidden gems in the discography. Also multiple topics looking for a reissue of the home video. To the point where I started asking myself “what am I missing here?” I am well aware where Headless Cross and Forbidden usually rank in the tiny Tony Martin fan base, hence my “by those standards” comment.

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Xymosys
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:28 am 
 

Well, it seems that MA community really likes to make this kind of lists :D :D
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:31 am 
 

idunnosomename wrote:

Forbidden is unfairly maligned, the band had a rough time recording it thus happy to diss it, doesn't mean it's objectively bad in itself.


Nah, I genuinely think this was a very bad album by their standards and pretty bad even just by any standard really. Lifeless, dull ass songs... I did only hear it the once though so who knows.
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ZenoMarx
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:36 am 
 

DoomMetalAlchemist wrote:
A LOT of REALLY hot takes in this thread....
No kidding. Check out Vol4 at 14 out of 16. I don't think I listen to music the same way that person does. Like reading the similar Slayer thread and seeing God Hates and South listed spots above Hell Awaits, Show, and Reign. Twilight Zone, the metal version.

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Dembo
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 12:08 pm 
 

brain hammer wrote:
I’ve done this ranking enough times over the years, I can do this by memory while driving at this point.

Don't rank and drive.

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Luvers
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:40 pm 
 

DoomMetalAlchemist wrote:
Luvers wrote:
[*]WORST: Master of Reality
I have no words for this. Luvers I wouldn't be surprised if you were literally the only human being in the history of Sabbath having existed to have this opinion.
Perhaps but, as I wrote before, I am not doing so just to be contrary. I find the album to be boring, plodding and makes the major error of writing music that is just a vehicle for the vocalist to shine. This works when you have three metal gods on vocals (Dio, Hughes & Martin) but not when you have a cheap fifth rate tool who should not even be allowed to place a mic stand for other vocalists. Dio said it best, "Ozzy could not carry a tune if you put it in a briefcase and handed it to him."

Can Ozzy sound good? Of course. Sabotage has always been in my top five and it along with SBS are crowning achievements. Those are the ONLY two Ozzy era albums that do not make me want to die inside for every talented but unsuccessful singer in the genre; as a vocalist Ozzy is... Well, to not be disrespectful, I'll just write that 2 great albums out of 9 tries is a very poor percentage.

Even of the two good songs on Master Of Reality (Children Of the Grave & Solitude), they do nothing that the band had not done previously. So not only is it the weakest of the Ozzy era, but since I find said era to be the bands weakest, it would be my least favorite of theirs. However, I must confess that is only because I had very little interaction with 13. I bothered to torture myself with that that release recently and might be willing to consider placing that for the dubious honor of worst. Master Of Reality at least has Children Of the Grave, Orchid & Solitude.
DoomMetalAlchemist wrote:
In all of my years of discussing Sabbath online (and there have been many), Cross Purposes is the perpetually ignored. Everyone rants and raves about how awesome Headless Cross is, Eternal Idol is usually lauded as the next best Tony Martin era album, Tyr as the favorite for a select few, and Forbidden as the biggest abomination mankind has created. No one even brings up Cross Purposes, not negatively, not positively. No one cares about it either way.
I would have to disagree, most people I know who are fans of the Martin era ranks it very high. It was also the most successful Martin era release internationally and was the only album that saw the band make a dent on this side of the Atlantic.

Of my Sabbath transcriptions (104 songs) Cross Purposes have gotten more views and downloads more than most other Sabbath releases. I think it is clear that most people prefer that album, and for good reason since it is spectacular. Only Dying For Love and Psychophobia are underwhelming, but Cross Of Thorns, Virtual Death, Back to Eden, Hand that Rocks... Cardinal Sin, Evil Eye & What’s the Use are masterclass works.
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ZenoMarx
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:10 pm 
 

Ah, the ol' talent argument. A universe that has infinite significant variables, but limit your scope to just a couple of them, and skew it all through that.

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oldmetalhead
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:36 pm 
 

I think Master of Reality is the signature album for them as far as defining their "sludge" sound, with Iommi down-tuning his guitar and all. Yes, the riffs are repetitive but they are still kick ass. I never cared for Ozzy's voice in any of his work but the music surrounding is good and he somehow fits as the maniac delivering the lyrics.

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hells_unicorn
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:05 pm 
 

DoomMetalAlchemist wrote:
A LOT of REALLY hot takes in this thread....


I think it goes with the territory, in my 16 year tenure on this site I've seen just about every possible divergent opinion on the Sabbath question artfully argued. We seem to have an extremely diverse sample of people who don't adhere to the conventional wisdom that was put out by MTV, Rock Radio and various other big media outlets; be it rock, metal or otherwise. We also have a pretty diverse generational pool here, and I actually feel kind of funny being one of the elder persons in this discussion given that I was 14 years old when Cross Purposes was released.

ZenoMarx wrote:
No kidding. Check out Vol4 at 14 out of 16. I don't think I listen to music the same way that person does. Like reading the similar Slayer thread and seeing God Hates and South listed spots above Hell Awaits, Show, and Reign. Twilight Zone, the metal version.


I partially concur with you on the Slayer example, though I would put South Of Heaven slightly ahead of Reign In Blood. As for Vol. 4, the primary flaw of that album is the production. The songwriting is incredible and Ozzy's vocals are actually better on there than on Master Of Reality, but the sound of the whole thing is paper-thin to my ears, its one of the few examples of where I think Tony Iommi's guitar tone was not on point (the others being Never Say Die! and 13). There are a lot of more recent doom metal bands that have used that album as a template that I thoroughly enjoy, and I wouldn't call it a bad album by any stretch, but it's definitely the weakest of the first 6 from an overall packaging viewpoint, in my opinion.

ZenoMarx wrote:
Ah, the ol' talent argument. A universe that has infinite significant variables, but limit your scope to just a couple of them, and skew it all through that.


Gonna have to concur with Luvers on this one, the textbook definition of nails on a chalkboard is listening to Ozzy's live performances, and hearing some of his vocal tracks isolated is no picnic either. He's had some bright moments, but most of his greatness can be attributed to who he has surrounded himself with over the years. Brad Gillis, Randy Rhodes, Jeff E. Lee, and Gus G are all phenomenal guitarists, to speak nothing for the various surgeons he had throughout the 80s on drums and bass. I'll even go to bat for Zakk Wylde, though I think his best work is about 30 years behind him. Put a bunch of hacks around Ozzy, and you have that abortion that he put out last year.

To be fair, Ozzy is far from the worst vocalist in rock or metal, but as someone who was still in high school when the famed Reunion live album came out, the general consensus among major media and establishment thought has been that Black Sabbath ceased to be when Ozzy left after Never Say Die!, apart from maybe a tepid mention of Heaven And Hell or Born Again. When you have a virtual wall of propaganda telling you something that is entirely contrary to your own individual experience, there is an inevitable pushback that comes into the equation. It isn't meant to be wholly contrarian, but I can understand why those who prefer the Ozzy albums would see it that way.

Luvers wrote:
I would have to disagree, most people I know who are fans of the Martin era ranks it very high. It was also the most successful Martin era release internationally and was the only album that saw the band make a dent on this side of the Atlantic.


Agreed, my first time hearing Tony Martin's vocals was on a bootleg of the Cross Purposes tour that I stumbled upon in a boardwalk shop while vacationing in New Jersey. When I subsequently picked up the album (just after getting The Eternal Idol as a birthday gift from the bassist in my Sabbath tribute band as a joke, as everybody else in the band refused to listen to anything that didn't have Ozzy on it lol), it was the only Sabbath album in the store that wasn't an Ozzy release. I still consider the three prior albums with Martin to be superior, but it's one of those cases where I could put on any of those 4 albums and listen straight through without skipping a song.
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Last edited by hells_unicorn on Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:06 pm 
 

Nobody else but Ozzy would've worked for those early Sabbath albums. He did what he had to do, had character and personality, and was effective on record, that's more than good enough for me. I haven't heard any of the live stuff though but that wouldn't affect my opinion.
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hells_unicorn
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:19 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Nobody else but Ozzy would've worked for those early Sabbath albums. He did what he had to do, had character and personality, and was effective on record, that's more than good enough for me. I haven't heard any of the live stuff though but that wouldn't affect my opinion.


I could see Dio handling Sabbath Bloody Sabbath pretty well, and I'd be curiously to hear how Ian Gillian might have sounded on either Sabotage or Technical Ecstasy, but I can definitely concur that the first 4 albums are basically tailor made for Ozzy's voice and it's near impossible to imagine anyone else singing on them. My point about Ozzy's live performances (and by that point I meant to imply every live performance both with Sabbath and his solo material) was meant more as a general assessment of his abilities, I don't necessarily take it into account when listening to Ozzy's recorded material, though I do tend to bring it up whenever someone is openly dismissive about what Dio and Martin brought to Sabbath, which has been a fairly common occurrence over the past 27 years since I became a fan.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:31 pm 
 

Love both Dio and Gillan, but unless this was an alternate universe where Ozzy just never existed I wouldn't really care to hear anyone else doing those albums at the end of the day. The band back then was just art to me.
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oldmetalhead
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:49 pm 
 

Every garage/party band ever, that has a decent guitar player loves to play Ozzy/Sabbath tunes. No matter how bad your vocals are, you can sound just like Ozzy live.

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~Guest 1195014
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:16 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Nobody else but Ozzy would've worked for those early Sabbath albums. He did what he had to do, had character and personality, and was effective on record, that's more than good enough for me. I haven't heard any of the live stuff though but that wouldn't affect my opinion.

Kind of this. I don't think anyone including Ozzy himself would disagree that technically he's never been a great singer or a very disciplined professional (rotfl), but he just ha(s/d) a voice that stood out and plenty of energy and attitude to make it work. He's one of those singers that is instantly recognisable if you'd ever heard him anywhere to an extent that's pretty hard to compare, and that's a powerful quality that has carried him a very long way despite his many and very obvious shortcomings.

And as for his live performances, I dunno. What I've heard from the 80s live albums sounded damn good to me (no clue how much studio trickery was involved) and having seen Sabbath myself a few years back twice he also sounded... pretty okay for his age and overall condition.

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:25 pm 
 

Death By Wall of Text wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
Nobody else but Ozzy would've worked for those early Sabbath albums. He did what he had to do, had character and personality, and was effective on record, that's more than good enough for me. I haven't heard any of the live stuff though but that wouldn't affect my opinion.

Kind of this. I don't think anyone including Ozzy himself would disagree that technically he's never been a great singer or a very disciplined professional (rotfl), but he just ha(s/d) a voice that stood out and plenty of energy and attitude to make it work. He's one of those singers that is instantly recognisable if you'd ever heard him anywhere to an extent that's pretty hard to compare, and that's a powerful quality that has carried him a very long way despite his many and very obvious shortcomings.

And as for his live performances, I dunno. What I've heard from the 80s live albums sounded damn good to me (no clue how much studio trickery was involved) and having seen Sabbath myself a few years back twice he also sounded... pretty okay for his age and overall condition.


Sure - nobody's saying he is Rob Halford in his prime at any point. He is what he is and he added a lot to those old Sabbath albums, is all I mean. I'm generally not really interested in everything having to sound super virtuosic or whatever all the time is all I was getting at - sometimes art goes in weird directions and works anyway.
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