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Frank Booth
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:16 am 
 

MC was one of the Florida old guard that kept going, along with Cannibal, Deicide, Morbid Angel, and Monstrosity. They still had enough momentum going by that point to survive the initial cull, but by the mid-90s, there was a new crop of bands coming along with a different style.

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insanewayne253
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:37 am 
 

The cool thing was all those bands had lineup changes that helped give those bands a fresh new coat of paint with fresh ideas; and those newer albums were still pretty solid. Only exception is Deicide whose lineup didn’t change until 04. Love em or hate em I always at the time respected the fact the original lineup was intact and was fortunate to see them in 02 with Zyklon, Soilent Green, and Exhumed. Now I’m in the mood to blast some Imperial Doom.

Also makes me think about the bands that didn’t survive
Oppressor
Gutted
Disrmbowelment
Paralysis
Morgue
Morgion
Carbonized
Hemdale during their first run
Baphomet/Banished
Demented Ted
Creepmime
Demigod
Mythic
Embalmer
Infester
Nembrionic
Num Skull
Skeletal Earth
Sorrow
Torchure
Victims of Internal Decay

…the list goes on

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CrudeNoiseMonger
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:46 am 
 

insanewayne253 wrote:
Also makes me think about the bands that didn’t survive
Oppressor


Three of the guys from Oppressor and one from Broken Hope formed the nu metal band Soil as a side project. Then they started getting successful with that so they decided to make it their main thing.

I saw Oppressor at CBGBs in 1997. Great playing and stage presence.

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~Guest 280883
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Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:34 pm
Posts: 556
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:24 am 
 

I'd also say around 1993/1994. Bands like Suffocation and Immolation complicate matters here a bit, because they do have one foot in the old school sound (think Immolation's debut for a good example), but they still pushed the genre away from OSDM with their subsequent releases. By 1995 and 1996, with albums like Pierced from Within, Here in After, or Cryptopsy's None So Vile, it's already apparent that something has changed, that the genre has moved on. From this perspective, it's kind of an interim period, before the death metal revival (at least in popularity) that happened with, say, Nile and Behemoth and whatnot.

As always, these things exist on a continuum and it's hard to establish strict borderlines, but to me at least it's apparent that, listening to a lot of 1993 albums, we're hearing the culmination of something we can trace back to 1989 or 1987 or even 1985, but by 1996, it's hard to hear death metal in the same context. As to where the border is exactly, there are several valid answers, probably, but they would all pool around 1993/1994 from where I'm standing.

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Eric Olthwaite

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:03 am 
 

1995 seems like a fair shout to me, Deicide's last great album, Morbid Angel's (then) swansong with Vincent, a lot of bands still embroiled with the death rattle of the first wave of death metal (mainstream flirtation, dilution of their sounds, experimentation). Furthermore, in 1996 you get the really "new" sounding groundbreaking stuff like Here in After and None So Vile.
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Frank Booth
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:48 am 
 

Angelcorpse was another turning point - sure, you had Necrophobic and Unanimated mixing black and death metal earlier on, but no one at that point was taking the FLDM style and mixing it with more aggressive black metal styles, and I'd say that Exterminate was just as much of a watershed album for the new guard as, say, None So Vile, Killing on Adrenaline, Conquering the Throne, Amongst the Catacombs of Nephren-Ka, Molesting the Decapitated, Cranial Impalement, and Inbreeding the Anthropophagi.

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insanewayne253
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Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:04 am
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:22 pm 
 

CrudeNoiseMonger wrote:
insanewayne253 wrote:
Also makes me think about the bands that didn’t survive
Oppressor


Three of the guys from Oppressor and one from Broken Hope formed the nu metal band Soil as a side project. Then they started getting successful with that so they decided to make it their main thing.

I saw Oppressor at CBGBs in 1997. Great playing and stage presence.


I missed out on them during the Agony tour. I liked Agony, but Solstice of Oppression was a beast in and of itself.

I remember Soil. I had a record rep back when I was doing college radio try and tell me they’re the next big thing. Here I am thinking cool members of Oppressor and Shaun Glass of Broken Hope, it should be good……nope. They did get MTV play for that song Halo though. Tim King looked way different since doing bass/vocals for Oppressor. I think he tries to forget his death metal beginnings much like the Ditch brothers in Gutted.

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hells_unicorn
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:31 pm 
 

insanewayne253 wrote:
Also makes me think about the bands that didn’t survive
Oppressor
Gutted
Disrmbowelment
Paralysis
Morgue
Morgion
Carbonized
Hemdale during their first run
Baphomet/Banished
Demented Ted
Creepmime
Demigod
Mythic
Embalmer
Infester
Nembrionic
Num Skull
Skeletal Earth
Sorrow
Torchure
Victims of Internal Decay

…the list goes on


So many great bands that only managed to field either one or a few albums before the wave ended up crashing, this actually inspired me to give Oppressor's amazing debut another listen after it sitting on the backburner for a few years, ditto Num Skull's Ritually Abused and Infester's To The Depths, In Degradation. A few of these bands I actually never got around to hearing, including Creepmime, which is kind of embarrassing given that I'm a sucker for prog death.
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insanewayne253
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:47 am 
 

Creepmime always reminded me of old Paradise Lost with a tinge more melody. Still a good album.

To the Depths In Degradation when I first listened to it creeped me the fuck out. I always wondered what happened to them. I know DJ the drummer ended up in Abazagorath as well as played with Drawn and Quartered for awhile, but he left D&Q a few years back. Jason and Todd just disappeared off the face of the planet though.

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Starwind
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Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:33 am
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:02 am 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
hells_unicorn wrote:
And yes, if we do include Suffocation in osdm, I find it hard to exclude Cryptopsy's first two records from the osdm classic era, which is why I tend to include them, although None So Vile is most likely the latest record I'd include in osdm.


I agree with you entirely on this. There's something different about Suffocation, Immolation, and Cryptopsy that makes them feel like they had one foot in either side of "new" and "old". The reality is that you can't pinpoint an exact date or time with something as nebulous as the end of an aesthetic era, and the fact is that OSDM probably suffered a slow decline and a series of deaths. I personally put my jumping off point at 1996 with albums like None So Vile, Iniquity's Serenadium, and Adramelech's Pyschostasia walking that line between "old school" and tech/brutal, but I wouldn't fault someone for having a more conservative cutoff. Nor would I fault them if they pushed it a little further to 1998, though honestly despite Death and Gorguts' earlier work, albums like The Sound of Perseverance and Obscura are pretty damned removed from the staples of 1988-1993.

But while I consider stuff like early Cryptopsy "old school", I'll admit they don't exactly fit the mould for what I reckon a lot of people imagine when they hear the term "OSDM". I mean, just look at all of those revival bands from mid last decade. Most of what I heard sounded more like Incantation, Asphyx, Bolt Thrower, Autopsy, Demigod, etc... the chunkier, thrash-rooted-but-still-undeniably-death-metal sound. Is that revisionism? I'm not sure. I guess you could kind of envision the end of OSDM like a graph. There's a large falloff around 1993/1994, with some smaller drops around 1996-1998 as the new sounds completely take over.

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Frank Booth
Can Bench 450

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:08 am 
 

Starwind wrote:
HeavenDuff wrote:
hells_unicorn wrote:
And yes, if we do include Suffocation in osdm, I find it hard to exclude Cryptopsy's first two records from the osdm classic era, which is why I tend to include them, although None So Vile is most likely the latest record I'd include in osdm.


I agree with you entirely on this. There's something different about Suffocation, Immolation, and Cryptopsy that makes them feel like they had one foot in either side of "new" and "old". The reality is that you can't pinpoint an exact date or time with something as nebulous as the end of an aesthetic era, and the fact is that OSDM probably suffered a slow decline and a series of deaths. I personally put my jumping off point at 1996 with albums like None So Vile, Iniquity's Serenadium, and Adramelech's Pyschostasia walking that line between "old school" and tech/brutal, but I wouldn't fault someone for having a more conservative cutoff. Nor would I fault them if they pushed it a little further to 1998, though honestly despite Death and Gorguts' earlier work, albums like The Sound of Perseverance and Obscura are pretty damned removed from the staples of 1988-1993.

But while I consider stuff like early Cryptopsy "old school", I'll admit they don't exactly fit the mould for what I reckon a lot of people imagine when they hear the term "OSDM". I mean, just look at all of those revival bands from mid last decade. Most of what I heard sounded more like Incantation, Asphyx, Bolt Thrower, Autopsy, Demigod, etc... the chunkier, thrash-rooted-but-still-undeniably-death-metal sound. Is that revisionism? I'm not sure. I guess you could kind of envision the end of OSDM like a graph. There's a large falloff around 1993/1994, with some smaller drops around 1996-1998 as the new sounds completely take over.


A lot of the then-modern OSDM scene spawned as a repudiation of deathcore and modern death metal; with Cannibal getting vastly bigger and Behemoth, Necrophagist, Decapitated, Origin, Hate Eternal, Job for a Cowboy, Kataklysm, and others being the faces of death metal of the day, a lot of those bands were trying to be the antithesis of the tech and polished productions and wanted to "keep it real", which to them typically meant looking to Entombed, Incantation, Dismember, and Demigod as inspirations. I think a lot of them rejected FLDM because Cannibal and Deicide were deemed too modern at the time, and the anti-tech ethos also ruled them out. Had these guys been around back in the day, they probably would have been the underground 'zine, Usenet board, and Geocites/Angelfire fanpage crowd who rejected basically anything with a Morrisound production and only listened to what was the caverncore of the day.

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insanewayne253
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:32 pm 
 

But now there’s a bit of nostalgia for that Morrissound production. Skeletal Remains gives off that kind of vibe. Hell, even I get burned out listening to a lot of the modern production stuff and have gravitated to the OSDM sound. That’s not to take away a lot of the modern bands a lot of them are still pretty good. But I hate that everything is tight to a grid and quantized.

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hells_unicorn
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Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:32 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:10 pm 
 

insanewayne253 wrote:
But now there’s a bit of nostalgia for that Morrissound production. Skeletal Remains gives off that kind of vibe. Hell, even I get burned out listening to a lot of the modern production stuff and have gravitated to the OSDM sound. That’s not to take away a lot of the modern bands a lot of them are still pretty good. But I hate that everything is tight to a grid and quantized.


Yeah, the nostalgia for the Morrissound production aesthetic began at around the beginning of the 2010s, and there were some other pretty solid bands following this approach such as Rude and Morfin that were putting out stuff by the mid-2010s, to speak nothing for the overt Death tribute band trappings of Gruesome. I only caught the tail-end of the original OSDM scene via some videos on MTV, so I was very receptive to this revival when it first started, more so than I was for the previous bands from a decade earlier that were mostly obsessed with recreating that ultra-dank Incantation sound. To be clear, I enjoy Incantation and most of the other danker adherents to the New York and Swedish scenes, but if I were to pick a scene of imitators that don't really measure up to the originals, it would be them. I have a hard time listening to any kind of death metal that is so rigidly barebones that it eschews any kind of technical prowess to the same degree as the grunge scene did.
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Last edited by hells_unicorn on Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Frank Booth
Can Bench 450

Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:29 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:19 am 
 

insanewayne253 wrote:
But now there’s a bit of nostalgia for that Morrissound production. Skeletal Remains gives off that kind of vibe. Hell, even I get burned out listening to a lot of the modern production stuff and have gravitated to the OSDM sound. That’s not to take away a lot of the modern bands a lot of them are still pretty good. But I hate that everything is tight to a grid and quantized.


Oh, definitely, but at the time, the OSDM scene was effectively anti-Morrisound and anything that they deemed too modern. That's probably a big reason why almost no one was trying out an FLDM sound.

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HeavenDuff
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Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:56 pm 
 

Starwind wrote:
HeavenDuff wrote:
hells_unicorn wrote:
And yes, if we do include Suffocation in osdm, I find it hard to exclude Cryptopsy's first two records from the osdm classic era, which is why I tend to include them, although None So Vile is most likely the latest record I'd include in osdm.


I agree with you entirely on this. There's something different about Suffocation, Immolation, and Cryptopsy that makes them feel like they had one foot in either side of "new" and "old". The reality is that you can't pinpoint an exact date or time with something as nebulous as the end of an aesthetic era, and the fact is that OSDM probably suffered a slow decline and a series of deaths. I personally put my jumping off point at 1996 with albums like None So Vile, Iniquity's Serenadium, and Adramelech's Pyschostasia walking that line between "old school" and tech/brutal, but I wouldn't fault someone for having a more conservative cutoff. Nor would I fault them if they pushed it a little further to 1998, though honestly despite Death and Gorguts' earlier work, albums like The Sound of Perseverance and Obscura are pretty damned removed from the staples of 1988-1993.

But while I consider stuff like early Cryptopsy "old school", I'll admit they don't exactly fit the mould for what I reckon a lot of people imagine when they hear the term "OSDM". I mean, just look at all of those revival bands from mid last decade. Most of what I heard sounded more like Incantation, Asphyx, Bolt Thrower, Autopsy, Demigod, etc... the chunkier, thrash-rooted-but-still-undeniably-death-metal sound. Is that revisionism? I'm not sure. I guess you could kind of envision the end of OSDM like a graph. There's a large falloff around 1993/1994, with some smaller drops around 1996-1998 as the new sounds completely take over.


I like this perspective. One large falloff and smaller drops afterward. I know it doesn't make much sense to try and find a specific date or one single album that would mark the end of osdm, but it's interesting to see how people perceive it, and seeing this as a graph might be close to what happened for real.

As for osdm revival bands emulating the older sound, I think it does make sense that they would go for a style that almost disappeared completely, rather then trying to emulate the brutal or tech approach and sound of bands like Suffocation or Cryptopsy, because modern death took a lot of influence from these death metal subgenres. I wouldn't say that it means that Suffocation or Cryptopsy didn't belong in the osdm movement in the first place, though.

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chuggingpus
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:32 pm 
 

1995 - slaughter of the soul was like the final nail in the coffin. Many death metal bands were pandering to more conventional tastes, especially the Earache, Century Media, Roadrunner and Relapse bands. At The Gates’ more toned down approach for this album and marketing to new school hardcore types really put death metal down the path of triteness.

Despite all the metalcore and groove influences, you had other bands (usually Europeans) doing the whole goth/death thing, dressing like renaissance fair attendees with the obligatory hot white chick doing operatic vocals.

I wished more underground labels like Red Stream and Repulse could have lasted longer as they had killer bands. Instead we got Dillinger Escape Plan

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:55 pm 
 

chuggingpus wrote:
1995 - slaughter of the soul was like the final nail in the coffin. Many death metal bands were pandering to more conventional tastes, especially the Earache, Century Media, Roadrunner and Relapse bands. At The Gates’ more toned down approach for this album and marketing to new school hardcore types really put death metal down the path of triteness.


"Triteness"? There was nothing like that album at the time. It's a perfect mixture of thrashy aggression with memorable songwriting.

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LycanthropeMoon
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:07 am 
 

I'm going to have to agree with Litho here. While there were quite a few bands that copied the SOTS formula later on (with added breakdowns), the album's still well done. Definitely more streamlined and less experimental than their earlier albums, but there's a genuine energy to it - despite its melodicism and accessibility, it's got quite a manic sound that I really like. Few other melodeath albums have captured that specific feel as well as SOTS. Gothic doom is pretty unfairly maligned at times too - (early) Theatre of Tragedy, The Sins of Thy Beloved and (early) Tristania had a good handle on how to create atmosphere, and you've got Draconian carrying the torch beautifully. Also, the cheesy renfair outfits are fun - theatricality drew me to metal in the first place. I don't think the 90s gothic doom look is any more or less ridiculous than what Norwegian black metal bands were doing with corpse paint and spikes (that shit's fun too).

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chuggingpus
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:48 am 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
chuggingpus wrote:
1995 - slaughter of the soul was like the final nail in the coffin. Many death metal bands were pandering to more conventional tastes, especially the Earache, Century Media, Roadrunner and Relapse bands. At The Gates’ more toned down approach for this album and marketing to new school hardcore types really put death metal down the path of triteness.


"Triteness"? There was nothing like that album at the time. It's a perfect mixture of thrashy aggression with memorable songwriting.


I stand by my statement on this. This album was a more accessible mishmash of Dismember, Slayer and the sound that At The Gates pioneered and did much better earlier on. The song writing was aimed at a new audience hence being the final nail in the coffin of the old school. That new audience fell in love with this album and gave every Earth Crisis and Snapcase fan a formula to try and create a form of simplified death metal.

On top of this you already had Carcass’ Heartwork and various other death metal bands slowing down and getting groovy for new audiences.

I’d also add that when CD’s became cheaper to produce around 1995, lots of bands rather than do demos and hone their chops playing out and touring went straight to making albums before they perfected their skills. This led to a glut of substandard releases.

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hakarl
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:32 am 
 

Frank Booth wrote:
I think Cryptopsy was a new and exciting thing because BMF and especially NSV took so many things and rolled them into one cohesive whole. You had Lord Worm doing gutturals that put even Frank Mullen or Joe Ptacek to shame, you had a great deal of technical wizardry going on, you had the breakneck, barely-controlled grindiness, you had a drummer who could push the BPM meter into the red but didn't feel sterile or clinical, you had the big pit riffs and chug breakdowns that you'd more expect from something like Internal Bleeding or Dying Fetus, and you had the disgusting, grimy feel that kept the speed and technicality from overwhelming you and made the grooves and breakdowns hit harder.

Especially with None So Vile, there's a feel of danger to the music. It sounds unhinged. The band playing at the absolute edge of their abilities, making it sound like they might fall apart at any moment, really adds to that feeling. Lord Worm had an uncanny ability to evoke scenes of murder and horror with his vocals. One of the underrated abilities of vocalists of that kind of music is the sort of voice acting that they can do.

If Lord Worm's accounts are to be believed (in other words, have your grain of salt at the ready), the band got shitfaced to record None So Vile. I think that might have something to do with the relentless performances all around.
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MetlaNZ
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:58 am 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
chuggingpus wrote:
1995 - slaughter of the soul was like the final nail in the coffin. Many death metal bands were pandering to more conventional tastes, especially the Earache, Century Media, Roadrunner and Relapse bands. At The Gates’ more toned down approach for this album and marketing to new school hardcore types really put death metal down the path of triteness.


"Triteness"? There was nothing like that album at the time. It's a perfect mixture of thrashy aggression with memorable songwriting.

Slaughter Of The Soul kicks all kinda ass. It was hailed at the time and afterwards as the Reign In Blood of the 90s and I ain't gonna argue with that.11 lean and mean songs without a filler in sight, 34 minutes of bliss.

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hakarl
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:14 am 
 

MetlaNZ wrote:
LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
chuggingpus wrote:
1995 - slaughter of the soul was like the final nail in the coffin. Many death metal bands were pandering to more conventional tastes, especially the Earache, Century Media, Roadrunner and Relapse bands. At The Gates’ more toned down approach for this album and marketing to new school hardcore types really put death metal down the path of triteness.


"Triteness"? There was nothing like that album at the time. It's a perfect mixture of thrashy aggression with memorable songwriting.

Slaughter Of The Soul kicks all kinda ass. It was hailed at the time and afterwards as the Reign In Blood of the 90s and I ain't gonna argue with that.11 lean and mean songs without a filler in sight, 34 minutes of bliss.

Dunno, there are some experimental tangents like in Under a Serpent Sun. The hard-hitting parts of that album are fantastic, but songs like Under a Serpent Sun feel like they're twice as long as they are, and really brake down the pace and intensity of that album. If they had cut some 5 minutes of extra crap from the album, then maybe it would be 29 minutes of bliss just like Reign in Blood. But it it doesn't really reach that level overall, even if some individual peaks of that album are amazing.
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MetlaNZ
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:36 am 
 

Under A Serpent Sun is a wicked song, I wouldn't change a second of it.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:31 pm 
 

chuggingpus wrote:
LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
chuggingpus wrote:
1995 - slaughter of the soul was like the final nail in the coffin. Many death metal bands were pandering to more conventional tastes, especially the Earache, Century Media, Roadrunner and Relapse bands. At The Gates’ more toned down approach for this album and marketing to new school hardcore types really put death metal down the path of triteness.


"Triteness"? There was nothing like that album at the time. It's a perfect mixture of thrashy aggression with memorable songwriting.


I stand by my statement on this. This album was a more accessible mishmash of Dismember, Slayer and the sound that At The Gates pioneered and did much better earlier on. The song writing was aimed at a new audience hence being the final nail in the coffin of the old school. That new audience fell in love with this album and gave every Earth Crisis and Snapcase fan a formula to try and create a form of simplified death metal.

On top of this you already had Carcass’ Heartwork and various other death metal bands slowing down and getting groovy for new audiences.


I love the early ATG albums too, but that's a very different sound when Svensson was the main writer. TSD after he leaves hints at it, but it's much more fully realized on SotS. You can certainly trace elements of it to Dismember and Slayer, but it's still quite different from them. Dismember's sound was much grimier and not nearly as melodic. Slayer's is far more rooted in the 80s aesthetic, also far less melodic, less precise and more focused on chaotic leads, and less vocally intense. Your argument seems based on the idea of blaming them for all of the bands that tried to sound like them later on and didn't do it nearly as well, particularly the ones from the hardcore scene. That happens in every subgenre, someone creates a fresh sound, and the epigones are rarely at the same level of quality.

But it basically sounds like you're more of an OSDM purist and don't care for much melodeath-related. It's a viewpoint that vexes me, but isn't uncommon on this site. It all depends on your vantage point though, the older DM stuff could be considered simplistic and sloppy compared to all the tech and prog death that emerged into the 00s.

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e_ddi_e
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:20 am 
 

In my opinion, I'd go for the 1993 option.

With perhaps a few exceptions, I think none of the OSDM bands released anything worthwhile after 1993. After that it seems like it was a vacuum for a year or so and then other stuff started coming out.

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Nocturnal_Evil
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:12 am 
 

I'd say 1995.
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