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tomcat_ha
Minister of Boiling Water

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
Posts: 5570
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:15 am 
 

I was talking about the mastering problems the first couple Bathory albums have. You know, most versions/issues of the first couple Bathory albums are based on a really flawed / botched up job with only the Under one Flag issue from the 80s being worth anything. Seriously go compare the SQ of most versions of the 80s Bathory albums with the Under one Flag version the difference is huge. You can actually hear the bass on The Return. Apparently when Black Mark issued the Bathory albums on cd for the first time they damaged the original masters.

I was wondering if anyone knows any similar cases? Can't be the only case of this happening right?

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jimbies
Noose Springsteen

Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:52 pm
Posts: 4145
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:40 am 
 

The whole Ozzy fiasco with re-recording the bass and drums on Blizzard/Diary was a mess. Although that's not EXACTLY what you're talking about, it's worth being mentioned because for a while, you weren't able to find brand new CD copies with the original tracks.

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~Guest 2944
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 4:17 pm
Posts: 794
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:54 am 
 

I would say all of the Megadeth remasters. I listened to the originals over and over for years. I know every note, I know every fret buzz. To me personally, there are huge differences in the remasters when compared to the originals. I believe the remasters sound like shit. Also if it was done for production purposes, I see no problem in how those old albums were produced. That's thrash. That's how it was supposed to sound at the time. That being said I thought Rust In Peace, was a masterpiece just as it was. The entire thing to me seemed like a cash grab from Dave.

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Belastbar
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:43 am
Posts: 76
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:42 am 
 

To be honest, most remasters are pretty weird, because "remastering" often just means adjusting it to the ridiculous loudness standards of the 2000s and 2010s. I remember with agony the times where any old school rerelease got a pointless, brickwalled remastering. It got better in the middle to late 2010s, for example Earache did a very tasteful, full dynamic range remaster of the early Napalm Death albums.

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Gravetemplar
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 4653
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:45 am 
 

Meshuggah - Nothing. They decided to record the guitars again with 8 string guitars. For some reason they also changed the drums for programmed ones that sound like crap and added a robotic effect to the vocals that makes this remaster unlistenable for me.

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~Guest 322837
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:20 pm
Posts: 274
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:16 am 
 

I felt like the remaster of Lykathea Aflame's Elvenefris took a lot of the punch out of the production. Still a great album regardless, but the remaster felt unnecessary, just didn't sound as good.

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Benedict Donald
Veteran

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:36 am
Posts: 3066
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:18 am 
 

wizard_of_bore wrote:
I would say all of the Megadeth remasters. I listened to the originals over and over for years. I know every note, I know every fret buzz. To me personally, there are huge differences in the remasters when compared to the originals. I believe the remasters sound like shit. Also if it was done for production purposes, I see no problem in how those old albums were produced. That's thrash. That's how it was supposed to sound at the time. That being said I thought Rust In Peace, was a masterpiece just as it was. The entire thing to me seemed like a cash grab from Dave.


Those were also remixed, and indeed sound quite different (and not in a good way, to my ears).

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~Guest 334273
Veteran

Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:19 am
Posts: 2513
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:23 am 
 

Molested's Blod-Draum reissue it's the first i think of: the remixed/remastered version has for some reason really loud drums that fuck up the atmosphere and make the whole thing an ordeal to listen to. At least they had the good idea to include the original mix!

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Firmament1
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:40 am
Posts: 103
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:36 am 
 

The quintessential fucked-up remaster in metal is the 2004 version of Megadeth's Rust in Peace. The drums sound completely different, the bass is much too loud, and the re-recorded parts, like the vocals on Take No Prisoners don't have the same punch as the original. Actually, just in general, it feels like a lot of details in the original were missed.

Personally, I think an example of a good remaster is the 2015 version of Violent Restitution.

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des91
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:51 pm
Posts: 361
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:26 pm 
 

The best remaster or remix, whichever one it was, is the 2011 version of Death’s Human.

The worst I have heard is the Rust in Peace one, as stated above.

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Benedict Donald
Veteran

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:36 am
Posts: 3066
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:50 pm 
 

The 1998 remaster of Maiden's "Somewhere In Time" was a colossal failure. The snare drum in particular was 'tinny'....the warmth of the original master had disappeared.

They also botched the "The Trooper"/"Still Life" and "Back in the Village/Powerslave", where the ending of the first song was now part of the second song.

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lordcatfish
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:44 pm
Posts: 1461
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:56 pm 
 

jimbies wrote:
The whole Ozzy fiasco with re-recording the bass and drums on Blizzard/Diary was a mess. Although that's not EXACTLY what you're talking about, it's worth being mentioned because for a while, you weren't able to find brand new CD copies with the original tracks.

I seem to remember at the time there were some complaints about all the other remasters as well due to them being brickwalled. Bark at the Moon also got a remix, used some alternate takes and had one or two other edits.
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Benedict Donald
Veteran

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:36 am
Posts: 3066
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:58 pm 
 

Another example is the 1997 and subsequent masters of Mercyful Fate's "Melissa" (the song, not the full album).

The '97 version features either a different vocal take, or perhaps some then new additions, compared to the original.
The most obvious difference is the new 'crooning' King lays down during the solo at the 3:10 mark (which spoils a truly sublime solo!).

Here's the original '83 version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk0p7anaQ24

Here's the '97 remastered version.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0d9Zhyok0g

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interstellar_medium
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:41 am
Posts: 926
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:49 pm 
 

Off the top of my head, the victims would also include Blind Guardian (including Bauerfeind's remixes of classic tracks for a recent compilation; whoever told him he was any good at mixing?!), Demons & Wizards, Doro... really, "good" remasters are harder to find.

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FLIPPITYFLOOP
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:09 pm
Posts: 1436
Location: CHRAWNA, Canada
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:48 pm 
 

Arcturus' Aspera Hiems Symfonia.

Did that album really need a remaster/re-recording? I don't think so. Garm's vocals were fine. The rhythm guitars were a bit quiet, but not inaudible. Yes, Hellhammer's tom fills were loud, but did you have to turn your volume down every time he did one? No. It wasn't a perfect recording, mix, or master by any means, but it wasn't that bad. It still breathed and had atmosphere.

But they neutered the sound of Hellhammer's drums so he sounds flat, and Garm re-recorded only SOME of the vocals. Seriously, re-record ALL, or NONE. It's so fucking jarring to go from the original vocal recording, to his re-recording - in the same song - when the two sound so different both in tone and recording quality (not to mention the new vocals are mixed WAY too loud). They weren't produced the same and sound nothing alike; it's just distracting. The added harmonies in the singing was okay, but the added falsettos were goofy (and I'm not opposed to falsettos as I dig King Diamond, Mercyful Fate and Ihsahn's falsettos on IX Equilibrium, but this was just goofy).

Then to fix the loudness issue in the guitars, they bumped up the volume but also compressed the fuck out of the whole recording, which killed all dynamics the original had and made it feel suffocating and overly dense - and thus had absolutely 0 atmosphere, despite being quite atmospheric in the writing. Like it's not completely unlistenable as it's still a great album, but I got the remaster because the original is so hard to come by (physically, at least) and wish I waited longer. It was completely disappointing and it baffles my mind why it's so highly praised in reviews here.

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Tornado
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:21 pm
Posts: 533
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:38 am 
 

Benedict Donald wrote:
Another example is the 1997 and subsequent masters of Mercyful Fate's "Melissa" (the song, not the full album).

The '97 version features either a different vocal take, or perhaps some then new additions, compared to the original.
The most obvious difference is the new 'crooning' King lays down during the solo at the 3:10 mark (which spoils a truly sublime solo!).

Here's the original '83 version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk0p7anaQ24

Here's the '97 remastered version.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0d9Zhyok0g


It actually goes back earlier than that. I have the Roadrunner Records (1983) and Megaforce Records (1983) vinyl versions, both of which contain an echo on the vocals and no singing over the solo. I also have the original 1985 (first time on CD), 1997 (remaster) and 2005 (remaster, plus DVD) CD versions, all of which have no echo on the vocals, and King crooning over the solo. It's very odd. I seem to recall an interview with King, many years ago, where the interviewer mentioned the differences and King had no idea how this could have happened, as there was only one master tape of the album.

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Acrobat
Eric Olthwaite

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:53 am
Posts: 8854
Location: Yorkshire
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:40 am 
 

Abigor's remastered stuff from the mid-2000s, I think, is fucking horrendous - shrill, clipping, needlessly loud. Seek out the originals, if you can.
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Terri23
Veteran

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:53 am
Posts: 3177
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:20 am 
 

Cloven Hoof famously "remastered" their Dominator record by simply repressing a worn record.
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Ace_Rimmer
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 4606
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:06 am 
 

Benedict Donald wrote:
Another example is the 1997 and subsequent masters of Mercyful Fate's "Melissa" (the song, not the full album).

The '97 version features either a different vocal take, or perhaps some then new additions, compared to the original.
The most obvious difference is the new 'crooning' King lays down during the solo at the 3:10 mark (which spoils a truly sublime solo!).

Here's the original '83 version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk0p7anaQ24

Here's the '97 remastered version.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0d9Zhyok0g


I've got the original vinyl and the remaster CD and I'm wondering how the fuck did I never notice that? I guess I don't spin the CD very often.

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The_Grindcrusher
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:46 pm
Posts: 57
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:55 am 
 

Gotta mention the Megadeth remasters, god they're so dogshit. The only good one is the 2011 Peace Sells which improves the drum sound imo.

Just listen to the 1990 studio version of Five Magics, then the 2004 remaster. Night and fucking day.
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narsilianshard
Veteran

Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:22 pm
Posts: 3618
Location: PDX
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:24 pm 
 

Not technically remasters, but one of the strangest things is when bands decide to just fully re-record their old material. In Flames doing Clayman 2020 and Sonata Arctica's Ecliptica Revisited are some of the most pointless recordings ever.
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tomcat_ha
Minister of Boiling Water

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
Posts: 5570
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:24 pm 
 

Terri23 wrote:
Cloven Hoof famously "remastered" their Dominator record by simply repressing a worn record.


ah so p much exactly as what happened with Bathory.


Also to be honest my intent with this thread was not remasters that brickwall the sound but more extensive and damaging fuck ups.

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ZenoMarx
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:38 am
Posts: 853
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:31 pm 
 

Black Sabbath Black Box from 2004. Complete revisionism of how they originally sound. Unfortunately, it's how most people now think of those albums. There have been some great Japanese remasters since, but they're expensive and require digging.

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Evoken
Metalhead

Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 11:02 am
Posts: 970
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:16 pm 
 

Morn Of Solace wrote:
Molested's Blod-Draum reissue it's the first i think of: the remixed/remastered version has for some reason really loud drums that fuck up the atmosphere and make the whole thing an ordeal to listen to. At least they had the good idea to include the original mix!


I haven't heard the remixed version from 2017, but I have heard the remastered version that was on 2009 2CD re-issue and it's atrocious. It makes the album unlistenable somehow. It's just loud and noisy and really terrible. Luckily the original master is on disc 2 and it's infinitely better.

The Gorement remasters on the "Within the Shadow of Darkness" compilation are awful too . Everything sounds very loud and up front, and there are several weird audio glitches in the demos / bonus tracks because Dan Swano must have been asleep while remastering these songs. I'd say anybody interested in those recordings should just seek out the "Darkness of the Dead" compilation which has a much better master.

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Cheapsteaks
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 8:02 pm
Posts: 266
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:35 pm 
 

After hearing the original, I can't come to terms with how the call and response part of Five Magics from Rust in Peace sound. They are honest to goodness Cookie Monster vocals
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Smalley
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:06 am
Posts: 1327
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:42 am 
 

I've actually always preferred the remastered version of Rust In Peace, since its sound isn't as dry as the original's...

:oh shit:
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ThrashSupremacist
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2021 11:52 am
Posts: 5
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:01 am 
 

Smalley wrote:
I've actually always preferred the remastered version of Rust In Peace, since its sound isn't as dry as the original's...

:oh shit:

I'll admit, the drums on the RIP remaster sound better then the original mix, however almost everything else sounds too clean and "2000s"-ish.

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