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Rocka_Rollas
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Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:08 am
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 3:11 am 
 

I missed out on Virgin Steele for the larger part of my 32 year old life...

Just recently some year or so ago I discovered Marriage 1+2, Invictus, House Of Atreus 1+2 and Visions Of Eden and I'm fucking IN LOVE. So much to digest!

How they managed to make those 6 fantastic albums in fairly short time is absolutely amazing. Visions Of Eden shows a bit of cracks in the "genious bulldozer" of the previous 5 but still pretty good, some songs definitely among VS best.

I don't particularly care for their 80s material save for a few songs like Noble Savage or The Burning Of Rome possibly (great songs).

What I started thinking about is that I don't think I ever heard band that switches from complete buttrock to the most epic imaginable power metal from songs to songs.

When you listen to Rhapsody or Blind Guardian etc, you know it's always a consistent POWER METAL album... Of course they have some variatins like softies (A Past And Future Secret, The Bards Song etc) so it's not like every song is necessary doublebass assult at all times but it's all very consitent in the "power metal boundaries".


BUT VIRGIN STEELE HAS THIS (buttrock):


On the same album as THIS (epic power metal):



And then this (fast buttrock):

(pure overwintered 80s hairmetal in 1995)


And this THIS (EXTREMELY epic power metal)




I know VS had some "hairmetal" albums between 80s and 90s so David DeFeis obviously has a softspot for that stuff.
But still.

The quesiton:
ARE THERE ANY OTHER BANDS THAT COMBINE EPIC POWER METAL AND "BUTTROCK"?

Virgin Steele sometimes even transcends between the "styles" within the same songs many times.

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Terri23
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:41 am 
 

Virgin Steele in that stretch of albums were absolutely god tier. That run is a worthy contender to those album runs by either Iron Maiden or Black Sabbath for the greatest stretch of albums in metal.

Manowar are the obvious shout. They probably don't do it as often, or as blatantly as Virgin Steele, but it is absolutely there, especially during that run with Ross the Boss.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:41 am 
 

Edguy/Avantasia does it too, but they aren't really the same kind of riff-heavy PM like Virgin Steele (though Mandrake and Hellfire Club are pretty meaty).

I've also been listening to Lord and they do this thing where the songs can sometimes be raging riff-rockers or speedsters and other times go into poppier hard rock stuff.

But yeah I don't know if anybody is quite like Virgin Steele.
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Benedict Donald
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 9:21 am 
 

They were a great band.....but their latest stuff is a sad case of self-parody. And David's current uber-melodramatic "singing" is cringe-inducing.

But, yeah, their classic run of albums are awesome.

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LordStenhammar
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 9:36 am 
 

That era from Marriage through Atreus is unbeatable. Massive albums, but I wouldn't change a second from them. Sadly I just found them like 2 years ago.

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Chaosmonger
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 11:56 am 
 

Tony Martin-era Sabbath? Savatage? They're both epic in a different way though.

Later Virgin Steele is still good though, people. Lesser genius still has hints of genius. Tell me "Feral" off Ghost Harvest 1 isn't one of the best songs written in the past decade.

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nightbreaker33
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:49 pm 
 

I think they don't even come close to buttrock judging from the tracks you posted, they just made some songs that are similar to the mid 90's Riot albums. More bluesy in a way. The first album I agree it does have some buttrock moments though.
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colin040
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:59 pm 
 

Chaosmonger wrote:
Tony Martin-era Sabbath? Savatage? They're both epic in a different way though.
Tell me "Feral" off Ghost Harvest 1 isn't one of the best songs written in the past decade.


If you have extremely low standards. :P I'll admit that I'm biased, since that music style isn't my thing much, but David DeFeis ruins practically everything nowadays; be it with his vocals or through a terrible, cheap production job.

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 1:38 pm 
 

Chaosmonger wrote:
Tony Martin-era Sabbath? Savatage? They're both epic in a different way though.

Later Virgin Steele is still good though, people. Lesser genius still has hints of genius. Tell me "Feral" off Ghost Harvest 1 isn't one of the best songs written in the past decade.


Man listening to this specific song again and I guess I can see why people would like it, but I wouldn't say this is anywhere close to one of the best of the decade...
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firelord_
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 2:11 pm 
 

Only came here to say that their 90s records are indeed something else. Absolutely brilliant stuff.

Anyone else noticed their good records aren't on Spotify anymore? All I can find now is some compilation cd containing barely half of their great tracks with dubious (re-?) mixes on some of them.
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Rocka_Rollas
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 2:59 pm 
 

LordStenhammar wrote:
That era from Marriage through Atreus is unbeatable. Massive albums, but I wouldn't change a second from them. Sadly I just found them like 2 years ago.

I didn't say I would change anything :)

I fucking love the Virgin Steele "buttrock" / "hair metal" / "whatever you wanna call it" type of songs of these albums.


Why I think it's "funny" is because I could never imagine Rhapsody or Blind Guardian featuring anything like "I Wake Up Screaming" in the midst of all the other songs, things like "Imaginations From The Other Side" or "Nightfall In Middle Earth".

Imainge those albums but you put a song like I WAKE UP SCEAMING ... It would be so out of place :-D


But I think VIRGIN STEELEs recipe for success is that they are so WILDLY diverse in the song; one album often don't feature one song that is like aother.
But Blind Guardian has a clear mold for songs like "I'm Alive", "Another Holy War", "Born In Mouning Hall" and similar songs that basically are similar.
Not a bad thing. I love that they have that clear identity.

Virgin Steels identity I think lies in David DeFeis just being amazingly varied in his song writing.

He has his moments of oveusing E-C-G-D for choruses etc, but I think David uses that standard-progression REALLY well and always find a good place for it.
It's not like when Maiden goes "okay, lets use E-C-G-D because that will work every time"... Nah, I think when David uses it, it feels like it has a while different REASON to be there, rather than trying to just write something that "works" or if just being lazy / unimaginative.

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By_Inheritance
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Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:38 am
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 5:43 pm 
 

Chaosmonger wrote:
Later Virgin Steele is still good though, people. Lesser genius still has hints of genius. Tell me "Feral" off Ghost Harvest 1 isn't one of the best songs written in the past decade.

You must be joking. Either that or it's the only song you've listen to in the last decade. I suppose that would make it the best by default.

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Chaosmonger
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:17 pm 
 

By_Inheritance wrote:
Chaosmonger wrote:
Later Virgin Steele is still good though, people. Lesser genius still has hints of genius. Tell me "Feral" off Ghost Harvest 1 isn't one of the best songs written in the past decade.

You must be joking. Either that or it's the only song you've listen to in the last decade. I suppose that would make it the best by default.


No, seriously. Listen again and try to get past the shitty production and grating vocals. It's a dark, melancholic masterpiece of a song. All of the original songs on Ghost Harvest 1 are great. "Justine" is fucking beautiful. Don't think anything about power metal when listening to them btw, they have nothing to do with power metal.


Last edited by Chaosmonger on Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Chaosmonger
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:18 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Chaosmonger wrote:
Tony Martin-era Sabbath? Savatage? They're both epic in a different way though.

Later Virgin Steele is still good though, people. Lesser genius still has hints of genius. Tell me "Feral" off Ghost Harvest 1 isn't one of the best songs written in the past decade.


Man listening to this specific song again and I guess I can see why people would like it, but I wouldn't say this is anywhere close to one of the best of the decade...


yeah but you also like new Maiden ;)

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:15 pm 
 

That "Justine" song is unlistenable to me. Vocal style is annoying, I normally like copious reverb and delay on everything, but the echo on it is distracting, the obviously programmed drums are irritating even though they're just keeping time. There's some cool guitar playing in spots, but otherwise it sounds like a demo he produced in GarageBand.

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Chaosmonger
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 8:41 pm 
 

yes, the production is bad and the vocals are annoying at times, but actually listen to the song. That's what matters anyway.

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By_Inheritance
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 9:33 pm 
 

Chaosmonger wrote:
By_Inheritance wrote:
Chaosmonger wrote:
Later Virgin Steele is still good though, people. Lesser genius still has hints of genius. Tell me "Feral" off Ghost Harvest 1 isn't one of the best songs written in the past decade.

You must be joking. Either that or it's the only song you've listen to in the last decade. I suppose that would make it the best by default.


No, seriously. Listen again and try to get past the shitty production and grating vocals. It's a dark, melancholic masterpiece of a song. All of the original songs on Ghost Harvest 1 are great. "Justine" is fucking beautiful. Don't think anything about power metal when listening to them btw, they have nothing to do with power metal.

I did listen to it again before I originally commented just in case by some miracle you were right, but nope. Ignoring the vocals and production (although I don't see why you would in a song that's apparently so incredible), it's badly written, generic southern rock shit. Virgin Steele are a legendary band. That song (and the rest of the new albums) sound like a bunch of dads playing old rock covers in a shitty local pub. It's embarrassing. If the song had better production and was sung by someone who didn't sound like a stupid asshole, it would still be naff.

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Chaosmonger
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:03 pm 
 

Only the opening section is bluesy at all (blues does not = 'southern rock' btw but that's your mistake). I guess you missed the heartbreaking chorus, the haunting "Cupid will enslave what he will" section and the super bleak ending. Ah well, I can't teach you to like a great song lol.

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By_Inheritance
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:42 pm 
 

Chaosmonger wrote:
Only the opening section is bluesy at all (blues does not = 'southern rock' btw but that's your mistake). I guess you missed the heartbreaking chorus, the haunting "Cupid will enslave what he will" section and the super bleak ending. Ah well, I can't teach you to like a great song lol.

Blues, southern rock; whatever. Genre tag doesn't matter. Whatever you want to label it, it's a poor imitation, that's my point. But, you know, if you like it, go for it. I think you're the first person I've seen who's defended modern Steele, but that's okay. As long as you're happy.

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colin040
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 4:51 am 
 

Chaosmonger wrote:
yes, the production is bad and the vocals are annoying at times, but actually listen to the song. That's what matters anyway.


You do realise that that both can have an enormous impact, right? Imagine if their 90s stuff had the vocals/production they'd have nowadays...that would have been quite something.

Again, I'm biased cause I'm not into this sort of music style anyway, but even around Life Among the Ruins (which is obviously the most logical point of reference for this stuff), the band wasn't good at playing this stuff either...albeit for different reasons.

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Chaosmonger
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:34 am 
 

By_Inheritance wrote:
I think you're the first person I've seen who's defended modern Steele, but that's okay. As long as you're happy.


I know, I've got a tough battle in front of me. judmunyon's review of The Black Light Bacchanalia is the only correct one. Their post-2000 stuff is definitely a step down from what they were doing before, don't get me wrong, but it's still very good (albeit different) and deserves another look.

colin040 wrote:
Again, I'm biased cause I'm not into this sort of music style anyway, but even around Life Among the Ruins (which is obviously the most logical point of reference for this stuff), the band wasn't good at playing this stuff either...albeit for different reasons.


Yeah I like Life Among the Ruins a lot too. I don't really give a shit about what style they're playing as long as the songs are good. I don't think the new stuff is that comparable to LAtR though, it's a lot more haunting, esoteric and insane. I wish their label would force him to use a real studio though. DeFeis is one of the few true geniuses in metal as far as I'm concerned, so even when he's not at his absolute best, he's still able to write music on a level of artistry that few others in metal can write.

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wildcard
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:46 am 
 

Chaosmonger wrote:
By_Inheritance wrote:
I think you're the first person I've seen who's defended modern Steele, but that's okay. As long as you're happy.


I know, I've got a tough battle in front of me. judmunyon's review of The Black Light Bacchanalia is the only correct one. Their post-2000 stuff is definitely a step down from what they were doing before, don't get me wrong, but it's still very good (albeit different) and deserves another look.

I would be one that defends modern Virgin Steele as well. Like said it's much different than what came before but there are some absolute gems on the proper albums. I would Eternal Regret from The Black Light Bacchanalia up against anything they've released. Persephone from Nocturnes of Hellfire and Damnation is another one.

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colin040
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:58 am 
 

''Persephone'' definitely has Virgin Steele's trademark sound of the band to it, but David DeFeis basically ruins every decent moment of his new music nowadays and back in the 90s, you had these kind of songs that had far better riffs, were far more cleverly arranged, featured real vocals and perhaps most important of all: were played by an actual band. I'm having a serious hard time figuring out what people like about Virgin Steele's recent stuff.

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Metallic Shock
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:11 pm 
 

I don't even see the 6 album run we're talking about as being free of issues really. I did when I was younger but I must say that DeFeis annoying vocal habits started as early as Marriage II with the constant "yOW" half-growls and the random falsetto OOHs. I still dig a lot of the stuff in that era but Marriage I is the only album that strikes the perfect balance between their matured writing style and DeFeis' vocal peak (which was more obvious around Age of Consent but still strong at that point). Still, I'd rank Marriage II, Invictus, and VoE pretty well regardless but the two Atreus albums are much more spotty.

Having said that, yeah I can't handle their modern stuff at all. I think Life Among the Ruins is 50% a damn good hard rock album and 50% overdone sappy ballads but these last few albums just feel like an unfiltered DeFeis wack-off fest where he refuses to self-edit. There are occasional ideas I dig but they're given no room to breathe with him making every possible weird noise on top of them.
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colin040
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:17 pm 
 

Metallic Shock wrote:
I don't even see the 6 album run we're talking about as being free of issues really. I did when I was younger but I must say that DeFeis annoying vocal habits started as early as Marriage II with the constant "yOW" half-growls and the random falsetto OOHs. I still dig a lot of the stuff in that era but Marriage I is the only album that strikes the perfect balance between their matured writing style and DeFeis' vocal peak (which was more obvious around Age of Consent but still strong at that point). Still, I'd rank Marriage II, Invictus, and VoE pretty well regardless but the two Atreus albums are much more spotty.


To me, the vocal lines on Marriage II still work because those distorted yells were just a part of of DeFeis' repetoire...whereas nowadays he's just relying too much on those screams and his vocal lines no longer feature ''substance'' if that makes sense.

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:42 pm 
 

Virgin Steele were always overly ambitious since those classic 90s works which was what was cool about them. But back then they married the insane over the top-ness of it all with some really excellent hooks, riffs, etc. Atreus I is an insanely overblown work and it seems to teeter on the edge of not quite working - but the band clearly had the talent to pull off the insane vision. It builds up moods and themes and makes you wait for a pay-off and it all comes together really well.

It's understandable DeFeis wants to do different stuff now - I like the idea of the more eclectic rock and blues stuff he puts in these new albums, but the execution is just so off and so poor that it's impossible to get into. Like there'll be a good guitar solo or some cool jaunty parts but then the song just goes on and on and it's like pulling teeth to listen to. It doesn't flow for me. The vocals are just unbelievably bad. I want to like it for the experimenting but it just sounds like such shit. It sounds, like someone above said, like he's just not editing this stuff at all, like it's a first draft just put out there. I can barely finish listening to a song.

And yes like mentioned above I've praised the new Maiden albums, which to me work so much better and actually do right with the experiments they try here and there with length and atmosphere, etc.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:55 pm 
 

Stormwitch's Beauty and the Beast has the "German power/speed meets AOR" or whatever name you want to give it. I'd be surprised if you don't like that one, Rocka_Rollas.
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Chaosmonger
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 4:09 pm 
 

colin040 wrote:
To me, the vocal lines on Marriage II still work because those distorted yells were just a part of of DeFeis' repetoire...whereas nowadays he's just relying too much on those screams and his vocal lines no longer feature ''substance'' if that makes sense.


well he didn't overuse the extra bits then, they were all rightly placed and just made everything wilder and more rock n' roll. But yeah, he overuses them now partly because he can't sing with his 'head voice' (or whatever they call it) and can only do the lower register and falsetto vox so I guess he figured he'll throw in the 'raow's' and 'lookout!'s' every two seconds to compensate.

For the record, I don't think Atreus 1 is overblown at ALL. Epic, yes, but not overblown. It's fucking flawless. (Well, 'The Fire God' is merely good and not great but other than that, it's a flawless masterpiece.)

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morbert
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:11 am 
 

The most recent VS album I have is 'Age of Consent'.
Based on what I've been reading in this topic I'll check out their 1994-2000 era as well
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colin040
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:28 am 
 

morbert wrote:
The most recent VS album I have is 'Age of Consent'.
Based on what I've been reading in this topic I'll check out their 1994-2000 era as well


That's one way to tell us that you're an old fart. :P In all seriousness, was that album hard to get back in the day? It wasn't promoted much from what I've heard.

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:26 am 
 

Chaosmonger wrote:

For the record, I don't think Atreus 1 is overblown at ALL. Epic, yes, but not overblown. It's fucking flawless. (Well, 'The Fire God' is merely good and not great but other than that, it's a flawless masterpiece.)


Yeah maybe overblown was a word that denotes something negative. I just mean the ambition was always through the roof.
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wildcard
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:13 pm 
 

Some the bonus tracks that have come out with the reissues and the new albums have actually been better than what is on the album proper. For example

Age of Consent:
Under the Graveyard Moon
Breach of Lease
Another Nail in the Cross
Down by the River ( Neil Young Cover)
Plus an insane 11 minute piano only Noble Savage

Life Among the Ruins
Love the acoustic tracks esp the Purple Rain cover. It's kind of silly but fits the Life Among the Ruins theme IMO

The reissues for Marriage 1 thru House of Atreus have some great acoustic and live bonus tracks

The Black Light Bacchanalia
When I'm Silent
Silent Sorrow

Nocturnes of Hellfire and Damnation
West of Sumer
The Birth of Beauty
Anger Never Dies
A Greater Burning of Innocence

And yes even the Seven Devils Moonshine box with 2 Ghost Harvest and Gothic Voodoo albums have some good tracks on them. These take a bit to digest IMO

I like most of the 1st Ghost Harvest Black Wine for Mourning. I will say the covers on the 2nd Ghost Harvest and Gothic Voodoo discs are probably the best parts of those IMO

Thanks to the OP for the VS thread. Don't see too many of them.

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colin040
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:35 pm 
 

''West of Summer'' is easily one of the band's best ballads and I like ''A Greater Burning of Innocence'' too, but production-wise and vocally they sound much older than what you'd expect of the band. Wouldn't be surprised if the tracks were written around 20 years ago or something.

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Chaosmonger
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:17 pm 
 

wildcard wrote:
The Birth of Beauty


"The Birth of Beauty" is GODLY. One of the best "end of the world" songs ever.

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morbert
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 1:49 am 
 

colin040 wrote:
morbert wrote:
The most recent VS album I have is 'Age of Consent'.
Based on what I've been reading in this topic I'll check out their 1994-2000 era as well


That's one way to tell us that you're an old fart. :P In all seriousness, was that album hard to get back in the day? It wasn't promoted much from what I've heard.


No, it was just in every record store that sold metal when it came out. The version with the lady on the front.
I just picked it up, listened to it in the store and took it home
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Twisted_Psychology
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 3:49 pm 
 

nightbreaker33 wrote:
I think they don't even come close to buttrock judging from the tracks you posted, they just made some songs that are similar to the mid 90's Riot albums. More bluesy in a way. The first album I agree it does have some buttrock moments though.


I'd second Riot as a band that does this sort of duality well, albeit from a more blue collar perspective. They aren't shy about their AOR influences, especially on the DiMeo albums, and their concepts tended to have a more down to earth execution in comparison. The highs weren't as high as Virgin Steele's best beyond Thundersteel but they were far more consistent in terms of long term viability.
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Benedict Donald
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 3:55 pm 
 

Twisted_Psychology wrote:
nightbreaker33 wrote:
I think they don't even come close to buttrock judging from the tracks you posted, they just made some songs that are similar to the mid 90's Riot albums. More bluesy in a way. The first album I agree it does have some buttrock moments though.


I'd second Riot as a band that does this sort of duality well, albeit from a more blue collar perspective. They aren't shy about their AOR influences, especially on the DiMeo albums, and their concepts tended to have a more down to earth execution in comparison. The highs weren't as high as Virgin Steele's best beyond Thundersteel but they were far more consistent in terms of long term viability.


good call.
And, yeah, those DiMeo-fronted Riot albums are damned good. Your description of "blue collar" is appropriate.

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jdmunyon
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:26 pm
Posts: 148
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:16 am 
 

Virgin Steele just announced on their Facebook page:

"In other NEWS: A new album has been recorded... final work is nearing completion (artwork, mastering, etc.), and we are currently in discussions with the label regarding release."

DeFeis guested on an Eternal Winter track in 2020 and he's still doing the auto-tuned, ad-libbed style from the couple of recent albums. I can't imagine the voice is suddenly going to change.

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colin040
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:00 pm
Posts: 7609
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:06 am 
 

jdmunyon wrote:
Virgin Steele just announced on their Facebook page:

"In other NEWS: A new album has been recorded... final work is nearing completion (artwork, mastering, etc.), and we are currently in discussions with the label regarding release."


The fact that this is the only info we've got isn't exactly promising, eh? :lol:

EDIT: OP might want to announce the news of a new album in the title.

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wildcard
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:23 pm
Posts: 29
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:27 am 
 

jdmunyon wrote:
Virgin Steele just announced on their Facebook page:

"In other NEWS: A new album has been recorded... final work is nearing completion (artwork, mastering, etc.), and we are currently in discussions with the label regarding release."

DeFeis guested on an Eternal Winter track in 2020 and he's still doing the auto-tuned, ad-libbed style from the couple of recent albums. I can't imagine the voice is suddenly going to change.



Interesting. Also in that announcement were new shirts for sale but they were on Season of Mist. Thought VS was on Steamhammer? Might be just for the shirts or like merch however

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