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Aldrahn333
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:28 pm
Posts: 477
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:12 pm 
 

"Det Som En Gang Var" is the greatest black metal track ever

Bolt Thrower and Obituary are nowhere near the cream of death metal bands

After 35 years of metal, only death, black and some doom metal should be considered

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Slater922
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
Posts: 2344
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:46 pm 
 

Aldrahn333 wrote:
"Det Som En Gang Var" is the greatest black metal track ever

Is that really an unpopular opinion? I also consider that song to be one of, if not, the greatest song in black metal.
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LithoJazzoSphere
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Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 3576
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:51 pm 
 

Bushido wrote:
I have over 700 CDs from those 2 genres. Mostly from the 1990s and 2000s. I don’t need to play pretend that there’s another 50 to 100 albums released this year in those genres from various best of 2021 lists that are worth my time.


Maybe not 100, but there's almost surely at least 10, unless you are only into one extremely niche sub-subgenre of it.

HeavenDuff wrote:
Ill-Starred Son wrote:
I was thinking after I wrote the comment that either he's just being a troll, or quite likely, he just hasn't kept current with what's going on in the world of metal and feels somewhat intimidated by the sheer number of bands out there or possibly some way "lesser than" some of us for having stayed current, and because he knows it won't be easy for him to catch up and isn't knowledgable about the current scene he'd rather go the "all current bands suck" route.

I've known people do it before.

They once took pride in themselves knowing about the scene and at some point stopped keeping up and felt defensive about it.

If that is the case, it's not even something to be defensive about. I mean there's far too many bands out there for any of us to keep up with all of it, but we try more than some.


I know what you mean. These scenes have evolved a lot over the years, and if you don't keep up with the changes, the scene might be a little too different from what it used to be when you knew more about it, and it can be overwhelming.


Since he's attempting to explain his reasoning a bit and maybe isn't quite as much of a troll as he initially appeared to be, I can slightly sympathize with his position. I tried fairly hard to keep up with metal in the mid-late 00s, and was pretty active in checking out new releases. By the 10s I had burned out on it and barely paid attention at all to new releases for much of the decade. Around 2018/2019 I was lamenting a bit (mostly to myself) that most of my favorite metal bands were either no longer around or weren't as good anymore. But by late '19 and particularly throughout the past two years I've gotten back into the swing of things, found a ton of new bands, rediscovered overlooked ones, and metal seems in a better state now.

But if you're looking for specific particular styles, it could be difficult to find what you're searching for. For example, one of my favorites, the old Gothenburg style and the more vocal-centric 00s version of it, is much more difficult to find anything new in anymore. Fortunately I'm diversified enough to find other flavors of metal to fill in the gaps.

Bushido wrote:
I pay an insane amount of attention. It’s so easy to check out huge amounts of bands now with YouTube and Spotify. Yet Archspire is the only one you mentioned I’ve heard of. There’s only so much time to check out everyone’s list of recommendations from the underground.

And I said most of my Death Metal & Black Metal CDs is from the 90s and 2000s. So more like the past 10 years it mostly all started to suck IMO, not the last 20 years. I don’t like Atmospheric or Shoegaze Black Metal (not even metal IMO) or modern boring styles of death metal like the cavernous, doom, or dissonant. Some tech Death is good like Archspire and Rivers Of Nihil. I dislike 80s metal, Power metal, Opeth, and modern Death & Black Metal. I like death and black metal from the 90s and 2000s, groove metal, and lots of cool modern bands like Jinjer, Mastodon, and Born Of Osiris. Is this allowed?


It doesn't seem possible that you've been paying an "insane" amount of attention. I pay quite a bit, but probably not nearly an "insane" amount because I also follow tons of non-metal bands and scenes and have life obligations and other hobbies. And yet I've at least heard of almost everything on that list. If all you knew on it was Archspire it's hard to imagine you can look at top album lists and have even heard enough of them to know if they're any good or not.

If you don't like those flavors, how about this list from this year: The Absence, Aenigmatum, Aeon, At The Gates, Baest, Carcass, The Crown, Crypts of Despair, Dark The Suns, Deathswarm, Dungeon Serpent, Endseeker, First Fragment, Fractal Universe, Galvanizer, Grand Cadaver, Hannes Grossman, Helslave, Hypocrisy, Inferi, Iotunn, Lock Up, The Lurking Fear, Macabre Decay, Obscura, Steel Bearing Hand, This Ending. No atmoblack, blackgaze, cavernous, doom, or hyper-dissonant releases there. Have you heard any of those?

Slater922 wrote:
Aldrahn333 wrote:
"Det Som En Gang Var" is the greatest black metal track ever

Is that really an unpopular opinion? I also consider that song to be one of, if not, the greatest song in black metal.


Yeah, I'm not nearly as into BM as many here, and particularly don't care for most of the lo-fi stuff, but that's a great song.

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Ill-Starred Son
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
Posts: 1420
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:55 pm 
 

Bushido wrote:
Ill-Starred Son wrote:
Bushido wrote:
Pretty much every Death & Black metal album I’ve seen so far on 2021 lists of bests albums is sucks. Don’t know why fans of those genres listen to such crap.


That's nuts.

I think you haven't been paying attention.

Have you even heard the recent albums by bands like: Black Curse, Cauldron Black Ram, Xoth, Of Feather and Bone, Necrophobic, Ulthar, Caustic Wound, Pissgrave, Fluids, Warp Chamber, Archspire, The Zenith Passage, Ripped to Shreds, Necrot, Exhumation, etc?

Some of them might have been 2019 or 2020 rather than 2021 but regardless, all these bands have had SICK recent releases and from this comment i very much doubt you've heard almost any of it.

If you have and you think most of this stuff sucks then either you don't like most extreme metal period or your taste is, shall we say, lacking...

I pay an insane amount of attention. It’s so easy to check out huge amounts of bands now with YouTube and Spotify. Yet Archspire is the only one you mentioned I’ve heard of. There’s only so much time to check out everyone’s list of recommendations from the underground.

And I said most of my Death Metal & Black Metal CDs is from the 90s and 2000s. So more like the past 10 years it mostly all started to suck IMO, not the last 20 years. I don’t like Atmospheric or Shoegaze Black Metal (not even metal IMO) or modern boring styles of death metal like the cavernous, doom, or dissonant. Some tech Death is good like Archspire and Rivers Of Nihil. I dislike 80s metal, Power metal, Opeth, and modern Death & Black Metal. I like death and black metal from the 90s and 2000s, groove metal, and lots of cool modern bands like Jinjer, Mastodon, and Born Of Osiris. Is this allowed?



So basically, you haven't heard any of the bands I mentioned, so you can't say they suck or that most of the stuff recently, or in the past year, or the past ten years, suck. You say you've been paying attention, but it sounds to me like you haven't been paying enough attention. If you are aware that you don't have enough time to check out a lot of bands (and that's the case for all of us to an extent cause there's too much out there) then maybe lead with that instead of saying it all sucks.

You said that you didn't see any way that anything that came out in the last year would be worth your time, and agreed with a poster who said that nothing in the past 20 years was original or very good. So now you want to change it to the past 10 years, but you still don't think anything recent is good.

You say you've been paying attention, but you haven't heard any of the bands I mentioned other than Archspire, and none of the bands I mentioned were atmospheric or shoe-gaze black metal.

Maybe try checking them out before you say nothing recent could be worth your time.

How could you know if most of the metal of the past decade has sucked if you haven't even heard most of it?

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Benedict Donald
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Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:36 am
Posts: 3067
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:18 pm 
 

Aldrahn333 wrote:

After 35 years of metal, only death, black and some doom metal should be considered


Considered for what?

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Gravetemplar
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 4653
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:18 pm 
 

Hasn't heard about Black Curse and says the 2000s were a great decade for extreme metal. He's obviously a troll.

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Bushido
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:38 am
Posts: 35
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:48 am 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
It doesn't seem possible that you've been paying an "insane" amount of attention. I pay quite a bit, but probably not nearly an "insane" amount because I also follow tons of non-metal bands and scenes and have life obligations and other hobbies. And yet I've at least heard of almost everything on that list. If all you knew on it was Archspire it's hard to imagine you can look at top album lists and have even heard enough of them to know if they're any good or not.

If you don't like those flavors, how about this list from this year: The Absence, Aenigmatum, Aeon, At The Gates, Baest, Carcass, The Crown, Crypts of Despair, Dark The Suns, Deathswarm, Dungeon Serpent, Endseeker, First Fragment, Fractal Universe, Galvanizer, Grand Cadaver, Hannes Grossman, Helslave, Hypocrisy, Inferi, Iotunn, Lock Up, The Lurking Fear, Macabre Decay, Obscura, Steel Bearing Hand, This Ending. No atmoblack, blackgaze, cavernous, doom, or hyper-dissonant releases there. Have you heard any of those?

Well it’s true, I pay an insane amount of attention sampling stuff from the underground. From your list I dig the At The Gates, Carcass, and Hypocrisy albums. Those are 3 of my top 25 metal albums from 2021. All I do is listen to metal. No non-metal for me. Haven’t sampled any of the other others although I’ve heard of a few of them. I just looked up a few on Spotify and they have hardly any monthly listeners.

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MetlaNZ
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Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 2697
Location: Lost in Necropolis
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:10 am 
 

Holy shit just had a listen to Black Curse and they're fuckin wicked.

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21stCenturySkippyMan
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:30 am
Posts: 38
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:01 am 
 

Sabbath Bloody Sabbath as a whole is overrated. Sure the title track, a national acrobat, killing yourself to live and spiral architect are great, but Sabbra Cadabra is annoying with its out of place, "rock and rollsy" feel, Looking for Today is just boring 70s rock, and Who are You's synthwork is just crap and disappointing given the riff that could've been there instead. Fluff is nice on its own but it doesn't fit the mood of the album well unlike other Sabbath instrumentals such as Orchid or Don't Start (Too Late). The album is saved by the four tracks I mentioned initially but IMO it doesn't deserve the praise it gets as "Sabbath's magnum opus" and is the least consistent and my least favourite of their first 6 albums.

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77hjrttfred
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:15 pm
Posts: 411
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:22 am 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
Hasn't heard about Black Curse and says the 2000s were a great decade for extreme metal. He's obviously a troll.


I don't think he's a troll. I haven't heard some of the names mentioned above either, or at least don't know much about them. It seems like he listens to some of the bigger names in DM such as At The Gates, Hypocrisy and Carcass as he mentioned in another thread. Maybe he doesn't listen to some of the more obscure groups out there.

It is very easy to throw names around, Are you a troll? I don't think Black Curse are that well-known either. He has also tried to expand on why he said what he did. Let's not gang up on people and become bullies ourselves. Try to be respectful to each other.

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Lagartija
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:27 am
Posts: 2042
Location: Catalunya
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:30 am 
 

I don't usually like to enter the 'overrated/underrated' argument as it depends entirely on how much you like a band or not... But what the fuck is the deal with Kiss?

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~Guest 322837
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:20 pm
Posts: 274
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:41 am 
 

deathcore is still quite very much metal

I'm not even really into it myself, but it takes a certain kind of terminally-online-since-2004-metalhead kind of brainrot to insist that 'it's not metal'. You might not like it, but that's a whole other thing.

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Gravetemplar
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 4653
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:58 am 
 

77hjrttfred wrote:
Gravetemplar wrote:
Hasn't heard about Black Curse and says the 2000s were a great decade for extreme metal. He's obviously a troll.


I don't think he's a troll. I haven't heard some of the names mentioned above either, or at least don't know much about them. It seems like he listens to some of the bigger names in DM such as At The Gates, Hypocrisy and Carcass as he mentioned in another thread. Maybe he doesn't listen to some of the more obscure groups out there.

He said he's been paying an "insane amount of attention" when it's clear he's not. Turns out he hasn't even heard many albums recorded in the past decade. He brought it on himself.

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CrippledLucifer
Metalhead

Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 5:08 am
Posts: 810
Location: Denmark
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:32 am 
 

MetlaNZ wrote:
Holy shit just had a listen to Black Curse and they're fuckin wicked.

This is possibly the only positive outcome of the last 3 to 5 pages of this thread.
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yungstirjoey666
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Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:47 am
Posts: 639
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:50 am 
 

Not entirey sure if they should be qualified as "unpopular," but here I go:


-I'm not always a huge fan of downtunings; I still enjoy bands like Killswitch or Eluveitie, but it can go unnecessary low at times. Sometimes a plain ol' E/Eb standard is the way to go, depending on the overall sound you're going for.

-I think too many bands focus too much on a particular characteristic (eg. being overly brutal, progressive/technical for the sake of complexity, cheesy humor, etc.) instead of focusing mainly on songwriting. I like some metal cliches, but some bands like Powerwolf tend to overdo it.

-Some modern power bands try a bit too much with the 80s revival. I like the 80s (well, at least the music; don't really care for much else) as much as everyone else does, but I feel like we overuse that aesthetic to the point where it's just not that unique anymore

-Combining harsh and clean vocals in a song barely works. As much as I appreciate their overall songwriting and structure, this is one of the things that kind of deters me away from most of Epica's music, or makes me find remixes on Youtube that removes those death growls

-Don't like headbanging, and I think some music videos nowadays have weird headbanging moves

-While I agree that looks don't always matter in music, I think male rock/metal musicians should try to prevent themselves a bit neater. I'm not saying they should go full glam or visual kei or be dressed in high-quality outfits 24/7, but there is definitely a great discrepancy on how male musicians look compared to their female counterparts.

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snarg
Metalhead

Joined: Fri May 22, 2020 4:25 pm
Posts: 468
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:23 am 
 

Nu Metal, hardcore, djent and related stuff should be considered as part of the metal world. They're clearly influenced by and derivative of the genre and a part of it's history and evolution, and spare me the "just because it's heavy/fast doesn't mean it's metal" bullshit argument, while it's true, doesn't apply here because said sub genres were influenced and have a metal component to it and also in their turn influenced a lot of metal bands after them.

I do agree that some bands in those sub genres might be right on the line and even outside of it, but to exclude the whole thing and pretend it doesn't relate is complete and utter load of crap.

there, feel free to "school me" now with a plethora of torture devices of your preference

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GratefulDeadInside
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:22 am
Posts: 130
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:25 am 
 

Aldrahn333 wrote:
After 35 years of metal, only death, black and some doom metal should be considered


I dunno man, there's been some great thrash and NWOBHM releases these past few years.
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LunarisIsDead
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Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:14 pm
Posts: 199
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:46 am 
 

snarg wrote:
Nu Metal, hardcore, djent and related stuff should be considered as part of the metal world. They're clearly influenced by and derivative of the genre and a part of it's history and evolution, and spare me the "just because it's heavy/fast doesn't mean it's metal" bullshit argument, while it's true, doesn't apply here because said sub genres were influenced and have a metal component to it and also in their turn influenced a lot of metal bands after them.

I do agree that some bands in those sub genres might be right on the line and even outside of it, but to exclude the whole thing and pretend it doesn't relate is complete and utter load of crap.

there, feel free to "school me" now with a plethora of torture devices of your preference


I don't think a lot of people are denying the connection these things have to metal, rather that they aren't metal themselves and as such shouldn't be on the archives. To use one of the genres you mentioned as an example, hardcore has obviously had a lot of influence on metal over the years, and vice versa, but hardcore itself isn't metal; it's punk. Although I do think that its influence is underappreciated; hardcore and extreme metal basically grew up together :lol:

But the truth is, music is just so so interconnected that trying to include everything important to metal history is futile. Blues and jazz are also super important to the history of metal, and if you go back further than those, African-American work songs and spirituals, and then African folk music, you get the idea. And while the genres you mentioned are obviously way closer to metal, a line is drawn somewhere.
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thePowermetalLynx
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:57 am
Posts: 140
Location: China
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:29 am 
 

Chaosmonger wrote:
Most of the best power metal bands are past their prime.


Well, at least there are newer bands that keeps up the tradition. I like it when a band reminds me strong enough of the glorious age back in the 80s and 90s ( maybe because I’m always moaning about never living through those times, being young and listen to power metal damn sucks in some aspects). I like modern power metal to an extend. But I find most of them leaning a bit too heavy on synth and that just ruins the whole experience
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Opus
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2002 11:06 am
Posts: 4266
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:07 pm 
 

Apparently not liking Symphony X is a controversial opinion. ;)
I love prog metal and power/prog, but I never got Symphony X. To me it's just bloated in the worst way possible. Just a number disjointed parts with extra everything. If some competent musicians were to make a prog parody, this would be it.
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snarg
Metalhead

Joined: Fri May 22, 2020 4:25 pm
Posts: 468
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:13 pm 
 

LunarisIsDead wrote:
snarg wrote:
Nu Metal, hardcore, djent and related stuff should be considered as part of the metal world. They're clearly influenced by and derivative of the genre and a part of it's history and evolution, and spare me the "just because it's heavy/fast doesn't mean it's metal" bullshit argument, while it's true, doesn't apply here because said sub genres were influenced and have a metal component to it and also in their turn influenced a lot of metal bands after them.

I do agree that some bands in those sub genres might be right on the line and even outside of it, but to exclude the whole thing and pretend it doesn't relate is complete and utter load of crap.

there, feel free to "school me" now with a plethora of torture devices of your preference


I don't think a lot of people are denying the connection these things have to metal, rather that they aren't metal themselves and as such shouldn't be on the archives. To use one of the genres you mentioned as an example, hardcore has obviously had a lot of influence on metal over the years, and vice versa, but hardcore itself isn't metal; it's punk. Although I do think that its influence is underappreciated; hardcore and extreme metal basically grew up together :lol:

But the truth is, music is just so so interconnected that trying to include everything important to metal history is futile. Blues and jazz are also super important to the history of metal, and if you go back further than those, African-American work songs and spirituals, and then African folk music, you get the idea. And while the genres you mentioned are obviously way closer to metal, a line is drawn somewhere.

Oh, I'm not disputing any of what you said and I agree with it up until the part where the line is drawn. I like my line drawn a bit further :lol:

Anyway, because i know most people don't agree with this point of view, thought I'd mention it as a part of the Unpopular Opinion Encyclopedia.

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Benedict Donald
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:17 pm 
 

Opus wrote:
Apparently not liking Symphony X is a controversial opinion. ;)
I love prog metal and power/prog, but I never got Symphony X. To me it's just bloated in the worst way possible. Just a number disjointed parts with extra everything. If some competent musicians were to make a prog parody, this would be it.


Are you sure? Over the years, I've seen/heard a lot of negative criticism towards them. And although I enjoy them, I can see why folks dislike them.

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interstellar_medium
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:41 am
Posts: 926
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:45 pm 
 

Opus wrote:
...Symphony X....
If some competent musicians were to make a prog parody, this would be it.


Brilliantly put!!


yungstirjoey666 wrote:
I think male rock/metal musicians should try to prevent themselves a bit neater...
...there is definitely a great discrepancy on how male musicians look compared to their female counterparts.


This. So many times this.

yungstirjoey666 wrote:
-Combining harsh and clean vocals in a song barely works...
...this is one of the things that kind of deters me away from most of Epica's music


Can't it be merely because M.Jansen is a very average vocalist at best?

TheCloudMinder wrote:
oldmetalhead wrote:
Clean vocals > growling and screeching


On another forum I argued that clean vocals are much better than harsh vocals in metal


These days, a truly competent metal singer should be able to do any style. Call this one of my "hot takes" if you will: a metal singer under fifty who somehow isn't known for mastering both clean and harsh vocals still has quite a lot to learn.
// yeah, the old guard is exempt... not to say there aren't older folks who can't do both, of course //

Empyreal wrote:
Purpendicular is the best Deep Purple album


One of the few times I'm inclined to agree with you :)))


LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
I assume side projects come about because they feel they have too many unrelated ideas to all just fit on the main album


And on the other hand, there is that Esa H.'s solo record which could've all fit onto Amorphis albums...

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
I was talking about the lecherous fan comments more than the actual artist behavior, which has seemed fairly constant...
I might just be on the wrong media platforms.


The artist behaviour on average actually did get worse over the last twenty-five - or even ten - years.
And the fan comments are still there, if probably phrased a bit more eloquently. Alexandra Revontulet, known for her youtube cover project Alexandrite, even had to ask her followers to consider complimenting her not for her looks, but for her orchestral arrangements, video editing skills etc (she's been doing her stuff 100% on her own for the last couple of years)

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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 5158
Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:46 pm 
 

77hjrttfred wrote:
It is very easy to throw names around, Are you a troll? I don't think Black Curse are that well-known either. He has also tried to expand on why he said what he did. Let's not gang up on people and become bullies ourselves. Try to be respectful to each other.


I'm not saying we should gang up on people, but I mean... I know it's an "unpopular opinion" thread, but when you say that most of the music coming out of two of the biggest extreme metal genres is shit, you have to expect some kind of resistance.

snarg wrote:
Nu Metal, hardcore, djent and related stuff should be considered as part of the metal world. They're clearly influenced by and derivative of the genre and a part of it's history and evolution, and spare me the "just because it's heavy/fast doesn't mean it's metal" bullshit argument, while it's true, doesn't apply here because said sub genres were influenced and have a metal component to it and also in their turn influenced a lot of metal bands after them.

I do agree that some bands in those sub genres might be right on the line and even outside of it, but to exclude the whole thing and pretend it doesn't relate is complete and utter load of crap.

there, feel free to "school me" now with a plethora of torture devices of your preference


LunarisIsDead is right though.

There really aren't that much people who actually argue that there are no connections between nu-metal, hardcore, djent, deathcore, metalcore, name-it-core, and metal. But of course there is going to be a debate as to what should be included and to what extent.

And as much as some bands and subgenres are treading the line, some could and are often times considered to be their own thing, and this also makes sense from a more historical and genre evolution/progression point of view. Metal was obviously influenced by blues music, and originally spawned from rock music, but there aren't all that many people arguing nowadays that metal is just a subgenre of rock, and the main reason behind this is that it evolved into it's own thing and now it has it's own community, culture, scene, and it's own plethora of subgenres, distinct from rock.

Out of all the genres you named the one I find the most important to distinguish from metal is hardcore, because it has it's own identity, scene and community. It evolved from punk in a distinctively different way then metal did. Now of course, metal and hardcore crossed paths many many times, but that's because some subgenres share common roots, structures, etc. with some metal subgenres, and are easier to mix then say reggae and metal, hence the fact that we end up with crust black metal, crossover thrash, deathcore, grindcore, sludge metal, etc. The same can be said about rock subgenres, like post-rock with post-metal. But hardcore deserves to be recognized as it's own thing, outside of metal. Just like metal deserves to be recognized as it's own thing outside of rock.

Now when it comes to specific bands being included or not, of course the bands treading on the line between genres will generate more debates and discussions, because they are by definition harder to categorize.

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~Guest 1413143
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:16 pm
Posts: 170
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:40 pm 
 

colin040 wrote:
Empyreal wrote:

On the contrary, art is as good now as it ever was and in any medium you can find stuff that is as good as, or better than, the classics. There's a lot of stuff out there so that means more crap too. But the idea of there being a cutoff point where a genre of art stopped being any good is just nonsense to me.


While I'm definitely not fond of the people who whine about how metal has died or shit, this is like the total opposite stance that I just don't get at all. Are you really gonna tell me with a straight face that there are Swedish death metal albums released nowadays that are better than Left Hand Path and whatnot? Come on, I'm all for being realistic, but overly optimism just doesn't make sense to me.


Thats essentially my point. There is a lot of well made metal out there, but there are no albums anymore that reach a certain level; well, let`s say nearly no albums (sweven ie. surely did...) - specially if we take the incredible amount of bands into consideration. Metaphorically spoken: bands reach schizophrenia level, but not arise (specially in TM and DM but as well into "normal" metal - no painkiller, no hall of the mountain king level).

Unpopular opinion: zemial wrote one of the best "overseen" metal albums of the last decade. NYKTA should be much much bigger

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Bushido
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:38 am
Posts: 35
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:41 pm 
 

snarg wrote:
Nu Metal, hardcore, djent and related stuff should be considered as part of the metal world. They're clearly influenced by and derivative of the genre and a part of it's history and evolution, and spare me the "just because it's heavy/fast doesn't mean it's metal" bullshit argument, while it's true, doesn't apply here because said sub genres were influenced and have a metal component to it and also in their turn influenced a lot of metal bands after them.

I do agree that some bands in those sub genres might be right on the line and even outside of it, but to exclude the whole thing and pretend it doesn't relate is complete and utter load of crap.

there, feel free to "school me" now with a plethora of torture devices of your preference

99.9999999999999999% of metal fans who’ve ever lived consider Nu Metal, hardcore, djent, metalcore, Deathcore, ect to be metal. Every streaming service, ITunes, every record store considers it metal. It’s only a few bros on forums and subreddits think who otherwise so it’s not worth caring about such foolishness.

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Zelkiiro
Pounding the world with a fish of steel

Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:30 pm
Posts: 7729
Location: Pennsylvania
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:59 pm 
 

interstellar_medium wrote:
yungstirjoey666 wrote:
-Combining harsh and clean vocals in a song barely works...
...this is one of the things that kind of deters me away from most of Epica's music


Can't it be merely because M.Jansen is a very average vocalist at best?

Mark Jansen is like one of the only harsh vocalists I can tolerate because his vocals don't remind me of sounds you'd hear in a gas station bathroom, unlike other harsh vocalists.
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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 5158
Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:12 pm 
 

Bushido wrote:
99.9999999999999999% of metal fans who’ve ever lived consider Nu Metal, hardcore, djent, metalcore, Deathcore, ect to be metal. Every streaming service, ITunes, every record store considers it metal. It’s only a few bros on forums and subreddits think who otherwise so it’s not worth caring about such foolishness.


Discussing the boundaries of what fits within a genre and what doesn't is, outside of the very sectarian gatekeeping of some, something that is worth doing, namely for those who like to approach music in a more academic or scholarly way, but also because it helps understand reality and use proper words to talk about things.

It's also extremely silly that you'd favor the categorizations made by entities who approach music with a more "generalist" perspective like streaming services and stores.

If no one is making a statement about the quality of the music, why do you care if people debate if Alice in Chains, Slipknot, Tool, Deep Purple, The Deftones or Animals As Leaders is metal or not?

When we talk about this, you guys often make it sound like we only talk about the metalness of music to exclude deathcore and nu-metal, but if you look at the blacklisted bands here on MA, Papangu's newest album Holoceno was not accepted because it is considered by mods and admins as more of a Magma-esque prog rock kind of band, so not metal. I do not agree with this conclusion, but I understand the logic. You will also find the same discussions when it comes to dark ambient/dark synth bands with shreiked or screamed vocals à la black metal and with similar productions, but with no guitar or almost no guitar riffing to speak of. Well, some of these bands are not metal, even if they are inspired by metal.

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Curious_dead
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:13 pm
Posts: 1476
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:16 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
I don't know why you're even bothering with him here. People confuse unpopular opinions with half-baked uninformed opinions. He obviously knows nothing of these bands or has not given them a fair chance. This opinion is exactly the contrarian trolling I was talking about a few pages back. I don't mind people having unpopular opinios, but damn, you have to be pretty damn intellectually dishonest to say that "Pretty much every Death & Black metal album I’ve seen so far on 2021 lists of bests albums is sucks." It's complete bs. Not worth the effort you put into replying to him. Solid list of bands though.


It's also unlikely that this user actually gave a fair listen to all/most death and black meta releases on 2021 "best of" lists. There's a LOT of bands there. I consider myself someone who listens to a lot of new metal albums - I check multiple lists every week to listen to what's new. And there are plenty of albums that are on these lists that I just couldn't listen to given the lack of time (and plenty more that I did listen to that haven't appeared on any list that I'm aware). And many releases require multiple listens to get into.

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Lolpah
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:32 pm
Posts: 86
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:47 pm 
 

Bushido wrote:
99.9999999999999999% of metal fans who’ve ever lived consider Nu Metal, hardcore, djent, metalcore, Deathcore, ect to be metal.

Apparently hardcore punk is now metal, because 99% of people(???) think so.

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EvergreenSherbert
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:48 pm
Posts: 1271
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:01 pm 
 

Bushido wrote:
99.9999999999999999% of metal fans who’ve ever lived consider Nu Metal, hardcore, djent, metalcore, Deathcore, ect to be metal.

Most of those, yeah. Nu-metal... kinda. Depends on the band. Hardcore... not really? Sonically it's very similar to metal, and there's a lot of overlap between the two. But hardcore is its own scene that developed independently from metal, so I think that's why most people don't see it as metal.
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Horned_Owl_Holocaust
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:04 am
Posts: 302
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:26 pm 
 

Have not been around here recent enough to know the consensus about them but I absolutely loathe / do not understand the appeal of the band Jinjer. I am saddened that they are starting to eat up bigger and bigger budget slots on festival bills.

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EvergreenSherbert
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:48 pm
Posts: 1271
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:30 pm 
 

Horned_Owl_Holocaust wrote:
Have not been around here recent enough to know the consensus about them but I absolutely loathe / do not understand the appeal of the band Jinjer. I am saddened that they are starting to eat up bigger and bigger budget slots on festival bills.

I don't listen to them, but I've enjoyed the songs I've heard. What don't you like about them?
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MetalVermont
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:23 pm
Posts: 255
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:57 pm 
 

Bushido wrote:
snarg wrote:
Nu Metal, hardcore, djent and related stuff should be considered as part of the metal world. They're clearly influenced by and derivative of the genre and a part of it's history and evolution, and spare me the "just because it's heavy/fast doesn't mean it's metal" bullshit argument, while it's true, doesn't apply here because said sub genres were influenced and have a metal component to it and also in their turn influenced a lot of metal bands after them.

I do agree that some bands in those sub genres might be right on the line and even outside of it, but to exclude the whole thing and pretend it doesn't relate is complete and utter load of crap.

there, feel free to "school me" now with a plethora of torture devices of your preference

99.9999999999999999% of metal fans who’ve ever lived consider Nu Metal, hardcore, djent, metalcore, Deathcore, ect to be metal. Every streaming service, ITunes, every record store considers it metal. It’s only a few bros on forums and subreddits think who otherwise so it’s not worth caring about such foolishness.


Bullshit. WGAF what ignorant normies think?

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MetalVermont
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:23 pm
Posts: 255
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:04 pm 
 

TheCloudMinder wrote:
oldmetalhead wrote:
Clean vocals > growling and screeching

My opinion and I'll die on this hill.


I completely agree with this. I think this is an unpopular view among metalheads but it's pretty much the prevailing view among music listeners in general.

A while back I said that I was one of the most diehard metalheads in the world, and I absolutely am, but that I hate death and black metal. Someone told me it "isn't right" to call myself the most diehard metalhead if I generally don't like extreme metal. I think that point of view is totally wrong and idiotic. Judas Priest is my favorite band in the world, and I love all of their music. They have always been the most definitive and most quintessential heavy metal in the world.

On another forum I argued that clean vocals are much better than harsh vocals in metal and I really was not expecting to get much backlash for having that opinion. But I guess that's pretty controversial in the metal community, at least online, which may be more dominated by underground metal fans who listen to various forms of extreme metal and whatnot.


Yes, it goes with out saying. No one should be able to tell you a screechy/growly vocalist is better than Dio/Halford/Dickinson etc with a straight face.

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CrippledLucifer
Metalhead

Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 5:08 am
Posts: 810
Location: Denmark
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:07 pm 
 

What does better even mean in that context? Would Dickinson fare better doing vocals in a death metal band than Frank Mullen or Corpsegrinder? That comparison is meaningless.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 35183
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:23 pm 
 

Yeah, as great as Dickinson and the others are, that's a silly comparison because death metal vocalists are not trying to be like that even a little bit.
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~Guest 334273
Veteran

Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:19 am
Posts: 2513
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:29 pm 
 

In the other hand too many extreme metal bands put growls and screams for the sake of it, without even making the effort to try something more personal and interesting.

Desultor for example weren't perfect, but i really liked that unconventional approach and i wished more would follow. A band with music as strong as Hooded Menace could get rid of that generic death growl and watch their popularity explode


Last edited by ~Guest 334273 on Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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oldmetalhead
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:30 am
Posts: 839
Location: Helltown, United States
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:36 pm 
 

I didn't make any comparisons, I just stated a preference to clean vocals over death/black vocals, which I see here as an unpopular opinion. I like to be able to hear the lyrics, not just a bunch of growling, shrieking, barely enunciated grunts.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 35183
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:44 pm 
 

Morn Of Solace wrote:
In the other hand too many extreme metal bands put growls and screams for the sake of it, without even making the effort to try something more personal and interesting.


This is what I always said about the Gothenburg shit. It just sounds like they were too lazy to find a good singer for the extremely melodic music.
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