I'd say Ward's unique drumming is one of the main reasons why no one can effectively cover 70s Sabbath. Covers of their classics always sound stale & stiff. Soulless. Bill was a vital to that sound as were the other members, IMO.

Some years ago I used to think that Vinny Appice was just an average drummer, but damn... what a fool I was! This guy is as precise as a clock, or better yet, as a robot. I even like his style better than Ward's. No direspect though. Both are absolute monsters at the drums.

Yeah, had people IRL be dismissive of my favourite drummer being Bill Ward but man that sound on the early albums and live performances I've seen is unmatched in that style. There's a thousand stoner bands that wanna be like Sabbath, but forget there was more to them than just than the riffs, can't really think of many where the drummer actually stands out to any great degree.

Geezer Butler and Bill Ward together = the ultimate rhythm section.

Honestly as I'm getting more into Death Metal, I gotta say I'm not a huge fan of post Spiritual Healing Death. Human and every album afterwards just sounds weak as hell compared to anything else happening in DM at the time.

Ronnie James Dio ... meh.

Yeah, I don't think that's an unpopular opinion at all. It's clear that the Butler-Ward duo are one of the things that made Sabbath unique from the beginning, and I think Bill Ward's jazz-influenced style of drumming is definitely something a lot of Sabbath worship bands don't necessarily pick up on.

Ronnie James Dio ... meh.

Ronnie James Dio ... meh.

What do you feel like is a better example of 90's death metal than Death's stuff?

Yeah, had people IRL be dismissive of my favourite drummer being Bill Ward but man that sound on the early albums and live performances I've seen is unmatched in that style. There's a thousand stoner bands that wanna be like Sabbath, but forget there was more to them than just than the riffs, can't really think of many where the drummer actually stands out to any great degree.

Honestly as I'm getting more into Death Metal, I gotta say I'm not a huge fan of post Spiritual Healing Death. Human and every album afterwards just sounds weak as hell compared to anything else happening in DM at the time.

Now, an unpopular opinion (I guess) I really like "Never Say Die" (the song, the album is pretty mediocre) of Black Sabbath. I think it works great as a very catchy and commercial Hard Rock song.

Dude have you listened to Human? That album is Death Metal to the core. It’s super fast throughout and full of some chunky OSDM riffs. I never understood people who liked the first three but not Human. It’s more technical but that’s it. Now Individual and later are a different thing, especially Symbolic onward.

I like Human, but no means is it super fast. Come on!

Dio in his solo career is pretty mid, except for one or two classic albums, but with Black Sabbath and Rainbow, he is a rock/metal legend.

It’s not Altars of Madness but it’s just as fast as the 1st three.

Human is not any tamer, any slower then the previous three Death albums indeed. For some reason, Human still seems to have this aura, at least to some, of being less death metal. I don't know if it's because the lyrics aren't about eating dead babies, or because it's more prog/tech/jazzy or whatever, but some death metal purists are very boneheaded and conservative about what they think is good or even "real" death metal. And yeah, Human is just too "gay" and pretentious for some, or whatever. But I think it's nothing less then a masterpiece. I'm not saying that anyone in this current discussions said that. Just pointing out that I'm truly fascinated by this perceived big fracture in death metal, where bands like Atheist and Death supposedly destroyed the genre by making it too intellectual or something. These bands were clearly very death metal at their core still, around the time they released Unqestionable Presence and Human.

All Death albums are awesome, they are one of the few bands that don't have a bad album. My favorite of them is the last one, The Sound of Perseverance.

I've never seen anyone call Human "Gay" or Unquestionable Presence a "genre destroyer", I'm not saying that no one ever has, but I've always found them to be quite celebrated and beloved albums. Now... I've seen those kinds of comments with Cynic.

I'm a pretty big fan of Never Say Die the album, but I just don't understand why the title track is pretty much always singled out as the only good song on the album. The album has so many better songs.

I don’t agree that Symbolic is more proggier than ITP and isn’t a transitional album it’s the point of arrive of Chuck vision..

narrow, compact, catchy, indeed it seems Human more restrained..

Superb..

We are Enslaved noooooooowwww

By transitional album, I meant that it showed that Chuck was moving away from death metal into more progressive metal, like we would find later on In The Sound of Perseverance, and on Control Denied's debut. Symbolic has some great moments for sure, but it's not an album I think about when making a list of the best death metal records, as opposed to SBG, Leprosy and Human.

I think we can all agree that Frank Bello from Anthrax is a phenomenal bassplayer, and his ability to make himself present amidst Scott's crushing rhythm guitar and Charlie's drumming onslaught is worth applauding. Plus he can do all kinds of nifty techniques.