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hells_unicorn
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:02 pm 
 

TadGhostal wrote:
I believe that even Mike Starr admitted that drugs were the reason he was fired. I get when people say "what about Layne???" but Layne was the singer and Mike Starr was the bassist who barely wrote for the band and if you're the label (or management) you likely care more about protecting the singer than the bass player. Mike Starr had a very low public profile, there were probably even a lot of AIC fans who couldn't remember his name and probably thought the two bass-playing Mikes were the same guy. No one cared if Mike Starr liked metal. No one cared when he was playing in Sun Red Sun because no one even knew who that band was.


I'm not buying the part that nobody cared if Mike Starr liked metal even if it had nothing to do with him being canned, back in 1992-1994 if you were listening to metal you'd have a swarm of people up your ass about why you were listening to that crap unless if was a handful of "approved" exceptions (this likely went quadruple for any established band lumped into the grunge scene, let alone one of the so-called Big 4), the initial buzz around grunge was heavily dependent upon this bizarre sectarian purism, and Alice In Chains was probably skating on thin ice with some of the hardliners in the Seattle scene over their glam rock past (Kurt put Pearl Jam through the ringer due to the Mother Love Bone connection in multiple interviews) as well as the generally metal-adjacent character of much of their music.

I'm open to the possibility that Starr's drug use might have turned him into somebody that the band couldn't work with, and it is possible that Layne's drug problem didn't become debilitating as rapidly as it supposedly did with Starr, but the whole "it was just because of drug use" sounds a little too much like a cop-out. Starr's lower public profile (it wasn't SO LOW that nobody cared if he was out) making him disposable doesn't necessarily negate the idea of the label ordering that he be canned for reasons other than drugs.
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Space_alligator
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:05 pm 
 

Im not buying into Starr being fired for liking heavy metal.

Cantrell has always listed Sabbath as a influance and how he loved Priest and Iron Maiden.

He is a metal guitarist.

Seems odd that a metal loving guitarist would fore the bassist for being into metal.
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Hexenmacht46290
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:32 pm 
 

Yuli Ban wrote:
Ill-Starred Son wrote:
AxeCapitol wrote:
https://youtu.be/L-gx957MEO4


Dear GOD that was awful!!!

I'm glad they ditched that sound and that look as quickly as they did or they would have sucked.

I just can't stand glam rock.

Oh it gets so much worse



Whoa, they did the Cold Lake transformation, in reverse.

hells_unicorn wrote:
I'm not buying the part that nobody cared if Mike Starr liked metal even if it had nothing to do with him being canned, back in 1992-1994 if you were listening to metal you'd have a swarm of people up your ass about why you were listening to that crap unless if was a handful of "approved" exceptions (this likely went quadruple for any established band lumped into the grunge scene, let alone one of the so-called Big 4), the initial buzz around grunge was heavily dependent upon this bizarre sectarian purism, and Alice In Chains was probably skating on thin ice with some of the hardliners in the Seattle scene…


Was Ozzy Osbourne’s band one of those exceptions? Black Sabbath was, for sure, despite being mainstream metal, because they had punk, hardcore, and underground metal credibility. It makes no sense, that the label would fire him, for being too into metal, then replace him with Mike Inez. Tolerating Layne Staley’s drug use makes more sense, because Alice In Chains is catchy, accessible metal, with really prominent vocals.

What you call the “initial buzz around grunge” would be correct, if you’re referring to the hype, sold by David Geffen, and the other major labels, once Soundgarden and Nirvana decided that they really did want to be pop music. If you’re referring to before that, sectarian purity was less important than selling the music, as accessible fun.

Sub Pop admitted that Soundgarden was similar to Led Zeppelin, even though indie and punk purists wouldn’t like it. And there was “initial buzz,” before the major labels got involved. Not from people who only listen to mainstream shit, but from people who actually payed some attention to music. John Peel(who, at the same time, was also promoting Bolt Thrower, and Napalm Death) got a copy of Mudhoney’s first single, and played “touch me I’m sick,” on BBC radio.*

They weren’t photographing the bands, wearing regular clothes, and holding beers, to portray them as morally superior. They were doing it, because the bands were drinking multiple cases of beer a day, and worked regular jobs. Because they were actually underground. Sub Pop was trolling journalists, by pretending that their bands were rock stars. It was supposed to be funny. Scene members had music opinions, but most of them weren’t as elitist, as Cobain would’ve had you believe.

The major labels had been trying to make money off indie rock, for years. Most of the bands were too noisy, or too avant-garde, or more concerned with getting drunk and rocking hard, than giving labels what they wanted. Sonic Youth went pop, but not pop enough. Dinosaur Jr’s J Mascis had no charisma, on camera. Tad, and Mudhoney, didn’t want to give the labels a fake image, when they had an indie label, that let them be themselves.

Vedder and Cobain, with their PC personas, hypocritical as they were, gave the labels a generation gap, culture war angle. Just like the Beatles had done, in the 60s. The Beatles had corporate backing, but they got popular because they played a popular style of music, and because they wrote catchy, accessible music.

The original “grunge” scene was a bunch of people going to underground shows, and doing drugs, because they were bored. The regional pride image came about, because so many Seattle bands left, for more fashionable location, once getting famous. Many of the scene might have smart ass comments, about music, but they aren’t as black and white as they seem. Mudhoney’s guitarist/vocalist Mark Arm, played glam, in Green River. At the same time, he was in a noise band, that improvised everything live. Image was important, but it wasn’t everything.

Most of these musicians weren’t the strict elitist image, that came after. And if they sound like it, as Yuli Ban pointed out, their genre definitions aren’t the same, as metal archives(and in Cobain’s case, he was an unstable opioid addict, who lied all the time).

*Bleach was Sub Pop’s best seller, before Nirvana got totally mainstream. Mudhoney’s 1991 album got to #37, on the British album charts. So it wasn’t completely “inorganic.”
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AxeCapitol
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:24 pm 
 

If anyone thinks Starr was fired for liking metal (ffs!), I have a bridge to sell. Super pedantic opinions up in here, masked in flowery verbose language that makes some people sound like they’re on the spectrum.

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Metal_On_The_Ascendant
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:42 pm 
 

Shouldn't our collective "fuck this thread" be handed to you, its creator?
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AxeCapitol
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:45 pm 
 

Metal_On_The_Ascendant wrote:
Shouldn't our collective "fuck this thread" be handed to you, its creator?


Sure. You spent a lot of time and effort on this thread so thanks for contributing to its success!

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Ace_Rimmer
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:37 am 
 

Everyone I knew who was into metal during the grunge era, mainstream stuff mostly, loved AIC. I can't see him being fired for being into heavy metal. I used to get shit for being one of the few friend into Pearl Jam but Soungdarden and AIC were loved by all since they were metallic.

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Yuli Ban
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:25 am 
 

This probably busts any belief that Alice in Chains was ever opposed to metal


Probably not going to cover both Sabbath and Priest if you hate metal

Similarly,



Which is actually funny to point out since Kyuss, a band said to be partially responsible for stoner metal, also covered Into the Void and yet members of that band actively despise any attempt to say they were related to heavy metal. I know Homme and Bjork mentioned this disdain, and Homme said he had never even listened to Black Sabbath

That was just the in-thing to do at the time unless you were absolutely balls-to-the-wall heavy metal.
https://diffuser.fm/kyuss-blues-for-the-red-sun/
Quote:
“I don’t want to say I don’t like Sabbath, but it’s just not my bag,” guitarist Josh Homme said. “If Sabbath’s on the stereo or something like that, I won’t turn it off, but I don’t buy Sabbath records. Black Sabbath is a good band, but in my day, if you were into punk and you listened to Sabbath, someone’s gonna beat your ass – you know?”

His day being the 80s/90s. Like I said, before the atomization of culture and the ability to freely pass between scenes without suspect since nowadays it's all guitar music. Back then, you had to pick a side. Punk or metal, period. If you liked both, you kept that to yourself.

And also as mentioned, it's only because metal expanded itself that we retroactively included a lot of this stuff into its family. I recall someone mentioning Nirvana's Bleach is a straight-up sludge metal album. Thing is, listening to sludge metal from the likes of Crowbar, the Melvins, and Buzzoven, there's a massive sonic gap between it and what metal was popularly perceived as being in the 80s. In fact, sludge metal was once basically what you got when you took the heavier sides of grunge and hardcore punk and ran with them (hence why I say sludge is the "true" post-grunge).

And mentioning Buzzoven reminds me of the fact I like considering Korn's debut a demented fusion of Primus and Buzzoven. In retrospect we wouldn't dare say they're related, but if it was 1994, I can imagine someone who listens to the Melvins also buying Korn's s/t right alongside Sleep's Holy Mountain, and an old record from the Stooges and Black Flag while sneering hard at Metallica's Ride the Lightning and any Sabbath record post-1974. At that time, sludgy guitars and slowed tempos were a trait informed heavily by Black Flag and various punk bands since like the Dicks, with Sabbath more silently recognized as the godfather of it all.


This might also explain extreme metal's popularity in the underground and its propensity to cross over with other genres, especially punk ones. The closer to raw noise you get, the more punks liked it. Death metal and black metal might very well have been the first metal subgenres that open punks listened to without feeling embarrassed by it, such as with the likes of Napalm Death and Mayhem. In fact, this may be anecdotal but I'm fairly sure that I heard on the grapevine that Kurt Cobain himself was a big fan of Celtic Frost.

It's hard to listen to Cobain's first band, Fecal Matter, and not hear Mayhem in it.


The question being, were these bands even perceived as heavy metal at the time? Maybe to themselves, but considering even speed/thrash metal bands were trashed by the Sunset Strip scene for being "shit punks," I wouldn't doubt that early death and black metal groups found more kinship with punks and hardcore bands.

Doom metal might be the weirdest one to pin down because you have Saint Vitus and, again, Black Flag. That whole era of slow 'n sludgy that ruled in the early 90s was probably the closest doom metal ever came to the mainstream barring the early-mid 2010s, but this is largely driven entirely by Saint Vitus's credentials, as they definitely did proliferate through the grunge scene. And doom's hard break from what metal was traditionally seen as being (e.g. high-speed macho power fantasy) did appeal to punks more than mainstream metalheads, but only to an extent. I mean, even Black Flag's My War pissed off punks for being too slow (which is actually why Buzz Osborne loved it, because he hated how insular and boring punk was getting before then).


TLDR I don't know what I'm going on about either, but I do feel like we're talking extensively about this subject from a 2022 metalhead perspective rather than a 1992 perspective. Soundgarden and Alice in Chains are absolutely metal now, and the bands themselves don't even deny it anymore, or AiC doesn't. And they may even have been metal circa '92, but the culture around everything was just so different back then, plus how we got to that point in the underground can't be ignored.

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ZenoMarx
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:04 pm 
 

I grew up in punk in the same time frame, and I don't know a single punk who wasn't into Black Sabbath, nor any who ever would shy away from voicing that opinion. That comment is suspect...or he was living in a very different world than anything I experienced.

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TadGhostal
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:30 pm 
 

hells_unicorn wrote:
TadGhostal wrote:
I believe that even Mike Starr admitted that drugs were the reason he was fired. I get when people say "what about Layne???" but Layne was the singer and Mike Starr was the bassist who barely wrote for the band and if you're the label (or management) you likely care more about protecting the singer than the bass player. Mike Starr had a very low public profile, there were probably even a lot of AIC fans who couldn't remember his name and probably thought the two bass-playing Mikes were the same guy. No one cared if Mike Starr liked metal. No one cared when he was playing in Sun Red Sun because no one even knew who that band was.


I'm not buying the part that nobody cared if Mike Starr liked metal even if it had nothing to do with him being canned, back in 1992-1994 if you were listening to metal you'd have a swarm of people up your ass about why you were listening to that crap unless if was a handful of "approved" exceptions (this likely went quadruple for any established band lumped into the grunge scene, let alone one of the so-called Big 4), the initial buzz around grunge was heavily dependent upon this bizarre sectarian purism, and Alice In Chains was probably skating on thin ice with some of the hardliners in the Seattle scene over their glam rock past (Kurt put Pearl Jam through the ringer due to the Mother Love Bone connection in multiple interviews) as well as the generally metal-adjacent character of much of their music.

I'm open to the possibility that Starr's drug use might have turned him into somebody that the band couldn't work with, and it is possible that Layne's drug problem didn't become debilitating as rapidly as it supposedly did with Starr, but the whole "it was just because of drug use" sounds a little too much like a cop-out. Starr's lower public profile (it wasn't SO LOW that nobody cared if he was out) making him disposable doesn't necessarily negate the idea of the label ordering that he be canned for reasons other than drugs.


Its quite possible that Mike Starr's firing was due to more than drugs but unless Jerry or Sean come out and say "yeah, that dude liked shitty hair metal bands and had to go", I'm not buying that metal music had anything to do with it. Columbia started out marketing AIC to metal audiences. The first place I ever heard them was on my local metal station and I knew plenty of metal fans that liked AIC back in the early '90s (they were probably the most "metal-approved" of the big grunge bands back then). As I recall, some of the Seattle punk/grunge/alternative/whatever gatekeepers were down on AIC because AIC didn't come out of that scene, they came out of the city's metal scene but once they got big in the mainstream it didn't matter what some Seattle scenesters thought. Most of that anti-hair metal stuff came from Cobain (and the media), anyway (if you told me Nirvana fired someone for liking metal too much, I'd be more inclined to believe it). And Cobain ended up having his own issues with the punk/underground gatekeepers.

ZenoMarx wrote:
I grew up in punk in the same time frame, and I don't know a single punk who wasn't into Black Sabbath, nor any who ever would shy away from voicing that opinion. That comment is suspect...or he was living in a very different world than anything I experienced.


Are you talking about Homme? I've heard him say that before, about how he didn't listen to Sabbath when Kyuss formed and how he hated Saint Vitus and the doom stuff and it strikes me as so odd considering that Kyuss came out of that whole desert/generator party thing that seemed to have a lot of Sabbath/stoner influences. In the early '90s, there seemed to be a large reevaluation of Black Sabbath (the original foursome, at least) and a lot of that seemed to be inspired by grunge (if my memory is correct, even Kurt was a fan).

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An Ferbasach
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:08 pm 
 

I've read an interview with Brant Bjork where he confirmed Homme wasn't into Sabbath at the time but Bjork and Oliveri were.

I know Homme, and the other members of Kyuss, were into Yawning Man, and Mario Lalli talks about Sabbath as being a major influence on that band, so whether it was direct or indirect, the Sabbath influence on Kyuss is undeniable.

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:10 pm 
 

It's crazy if Kyuss wasn't into Sabbath. Welcome to Sky Valley, with the riffing style, the acoustic bits, the adventurous rhythm section, etc - that is all as Sabbath-y as it gets. If he's telling the truth about not being into them then it's really a wild case of parallel thinking or something.
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Benedict Donald
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:36 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
It's crazy if Kyuss wasn't into Sabbath. Welcome to Sky Valley, with the riffing style, the acoustic bits, the adventurous rhythm section, etc - that is all as Sabbath-y as it gets. If he's telling the truth about not being into them then it's really a wild case of parallel thinking or something.


Exactly. Heck, some in the rock press at the time championed them as the natural heirs to the Sabbath throne.

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Ex El Ex El Ex
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:37 pm 
 

If one of the guys from Kyuss told me that they were never into Sabbath I'd assume they're fucking with me.
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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:53 pm 
 

I don't see what the big deal is. There were plenty of other bands in the 90s that had already been influenced by Black Sabbath so it should be easy to be indirectly influenced by Sabbath and not like them or even know them very well.

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Ace_Rimmer
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:09 pm 
 

Ex El Ex El Ex wrote:
If one of the guys from Kyuss told me that they were never into Sabbath I'd assume they're fucking with me.


No shit.

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AxeCapitol
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:37 pm 
 

During the short lived Temple of the Dog reunion tour in 2016 (basically PJ but with Cornell on vox instead of Vedder); they closed their shows with a very metal rendition of War Pigs. Cornell was definitely a Sabbath fan. As we’re all the Seattle grunge guys. Including Kurt who once remarked that Nevermind was essentially Black Sabbath meets the Bay City Rollers. And yes, Kurt was also a major Celtic Frost and Slayer fan.

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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:39 pm 
 

Kurt loved Swans too. There was a huge disconnection between the music he listened to and the music he made.

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AxeCapitol
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:45 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
Kurt loved Swans too. There was a huge disconnection between the music he listened to and the music he made.


I can hear a little Swans on the noisier and more chaotic songs on In Utero.

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Ace_Rimmer
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:04 pm 
 

AxeCapitol wrote:
During the short lived Temple of the Dog reunion tour in 2016 (basically PJ but with Cornell on vox instead of Vedder); they closed their shows with a very metal rendition of War Pigs. Cornell was definitely a Sabbath fan. As we’re all the Seattle grunge guys. Including Kurt who once remarked that Nevermind was essentially Black Sabbath meets the Bay City Rollers. And yes, Kurt was also a major Celtic Frost and Slayer fan.


Wasn't Cornell the primary vocalist for TotD anyway?

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Benedict Donald
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:24 pm 
 

AxeCapitol wrote:
During the short lived Temple of the Dog reunion tour in 2016 (basically PJ but with Cornell on vox instead of Vedder); they closed their shows with a very metal rendition of War Pigs. Cornell was definitely a Sabbath fan. As we’re all the Seattle grunge guys. Including Kurt who once remarked that Nevermind was essentially Black Sabbath meets the Bay City Rollers. And yes, Kurt was also a major Celtic Frost and Slayer fan.


I'm still kicking myself for missing that tour. Not sure why I didnt get tix. :(

The Temple album is flawless, IMO, and arguably the greatest release of that genre/era.

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AxeCapitol
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:38 pm 
 

Ace_Rimmer wrote:
AxeCapitol wrote:
During the short lived Temple of the Dog reunion tour in 2016 (basically PJ but with Cornell on vox instead of Vedder); they closed their shows with a very metal rendition of War Pigs. Cornell was definitely a Sabbath fan. As we’re all the Seattle grunge guys. Including Kurt who once remarked that Nevermind was essentially Black Sabbath meets the Bay City Rollers. And yes, Kurt was also a major Celtic Frost and Slayer fan.


Wasn't Cornell the primary vocalist for TotD anyway?


Yes. My point was that TOTD is comprised of all current PJ members minus Ed.

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AxeCapitol
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:40 pm 
 

Benedict Donald wrote:
AxeCapitol wrote:
During the short lived Temple of the Dog reunion tour in 2016 (basically PJ but with Cornell on vox instead of Vedder); they closed their shows with a very metal rendition of War Pigs. Cornell was definitely a Sabbath fan. As we’re all the Seattle grunge guys. Including Kurt who once remarked that Nevermind was essentially Black Sabbath meets the Bay City Rollers. And yes, Kurt was also a major Celtic Frost and Slayer fan.


I'm still kicking myself for missing that tour. Not sure why I didnt get tix. :(

The Temple album is flawless, IMO, and arguably the greatest release of that genre/era.


It was perfect. The band was on fire and Cornell looked and sounded great. He was charismatic and commanded the stage. No one could imagine that he would take his own life a few months later.

Saw them at MSG. What a show. Well worth checking out on YT.

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KaiKasparek
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:47 pm 
 

AxeCapitol wrote:
During the short lived Temple of the Dog reunion tour in 2016 (basically PJ but with Cornell on vox instead of Vedder); they closed their shows with a very metal rendition of War Pigs. Cornell was definitely a Sabbath fan. As we’re all the Seattle grunge guys. Including Kurt who once remarked that Nevermind was essentially Black Sabbath meets the Bay City Rollers. And yes, Kurt was also a major Celtic Frost and Slayer fan.


They also encored with Led Zeppelin's Achilles Last Stand!

Note: Look at this fucking setlist!

https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/temple-of-the-dog/2016/paramount-theatre-seattle-wa-73fa5e7d.html
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AxeCapitol
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:57 pm 
 

KaiKasparek wrote:
AxeCapitol wrote:
During the short lived Temple of the Dog reunion tour in 2016 (basically PJ but with Cornell on vox instead of Vedder); they closed their shows with a very metal rendition of War Pigs. Cornell was definitely a Sabbath fan. As we’re all the Seattle grunge guys. Including Kurt who once remarked that Nevermind was essentially Black Sabbath meets the Bay City Rollers. And yes, Kurt was also a major Celtic Frost and Slayer fan.


They also encored with Led Zeppelin's Achilles Last Stand!

Note: Look at this fucking setlist!

https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/temple-of-the-dog/2016/paramount-theatre-seattle-wa-73fa5e7d.html


Oh yeah! Matt Cameron KILLED it. What a legend. Brilliant drummer. He has a few solo albums as well that are phenomenal. Ballsy rock type songs.

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AxeCapitol
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:04 pm 
 

https://youtu.be/NaGtXdDmwGw

Yeah the Seattle guys hated Sabbath and dislike metal so much. Look how bored they look here.

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Ace_Rimmer
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:49 pm 
 

Benedict Donald wrote:
AxeCapitol wrote:
During the short lived Temple of the Dog reunion tour in 2016 (basically PJ but with Cornell on vox instead of Vedder); they closed their shows with a very metal rendition of War Pigs. Cornell was definitely a Sabbath fan. As we’re all the Seattle grunge guys. Including Kurt who once remarked that Nevermind was essentially Black Sabbath meets the Bay City Rollers. And yes, Kurt was also a major Celtic Frost and Slayer fan.


I'm still kicking myself for missing that tour. Not sure why I didnt get tix. :(

The Temple album is flawless, IMO, and arguably the greatest release of that genre/era.


I prefer the Mad Season album to TotD myself.

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Benedict Donald
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:29 am 
 

These AIC and SG threads have resulted in me revisiting some other bands of the era.

One of the better, and definitely heavier, bands to arise from that scene in the early 90s was Gruntruck. They kicked all kinds of ass; highly recommended.




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AxeCapitol
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:15 pm 
 

Benedict Donald wrote:
These AIC and SG threads have resulted in me revisiting some other bands of the era.

One of the better, and definitely heavier, bands to arise from that scene in the early 90s was Gruntruck. They kicked all kinds of ass; highly recommended.





Great underrated band!

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LongHairIsSoFuckingCool
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:50 pm 
 

Why is AIC even called "Alternative Metal" anyways? Combining hard rock and metal is so common I can't see how that's "alternative" at all.
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Lord_Of_Diamonds
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:03 pm 
 

It refers to alternative rock as a musical style, not as an "alternative" to something else. I personally think the term "alternative metal" is a bit misleading, because the characteristics (particularly in the guitar department) of alternative rock and metal cannot coexist with each other without dominance being given to the alternative rock. Therefore, I think of it this way: Alternative metal does not exist. There is only alternative rock and heavy alternative rock. Alice in Chains definitely falls into the heavy alternative rock category, with varying degrees of metal influences and some metal songs thrown in.
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