https://www.metal-archives.com/albums/B ... oss/413048

Good luck

I largely agree with AMG on this one, but this point is tricky for me to dismiss. It's unfortunately true that many highlights of black metal were made by some fucking vile people. I hate that standing by convictions of basic decency should ever come into conflict with recognizing artistic merit. Still you have to draw the line somewhere, and while I don't know that AMG handled this perfectly, I have to support them trying to fix things now.

I don't have an issue if people listen to some of these shady, problematic kinds of bands that aren't outright saying they hate Jews and love the Holocaust, but it's also entirely possible not to have that stuff on a year end list too.

I've been thinking about this and I don't have an answer for it yet. Last year I placed an Akhlys album at #2, and I've had Burzum and DSO in my albums of the decade list and my top 10 black metal albums list. All these bands have members that are problematic in some way, but not including them on my lists would make them lies, basically. I think I'd rather just not make a list at all if I decided to not include them.

If I was a major publication then the choice to not include them is an easy one to make, but as a private person it's a lot harder.

Everyone has a different journey. I just think the funny thing in these threads is that people get so defensive about it all and then it turns into some kind of shit-flinging fest where everyone is assumed to be either a secret bigot or some kind of culture warrior trying to score internet points.

If it sounds like I am trying to shame people for liking a Mgla album or whatever then that's not the case. Just saying it's weird how much these threads inflate everything, make it all seem so much more ubiquitous.

There definitely are parts of the internet where this becomes a thing (you own an Mgla album / your band is from x country / you have been local support for Marduk etc = you are a Nazi). Unfortunately people can have a hard time ignoring these types of comments or understanding that they may not reflect real life. Social media can have that effect, amplifying small things into something much, much bigger.

I know I've had a hard time with this in the past. I went looking for a place to find more information about the connections some bands may have and ended up finding someone asking about a band I had previously been in. The response was to avoid them, based on location only. "They're from x city, everyone in that scene is a Nazi". Never mind that this was approximately 3 people talking amongst themselves, I should have ignored it and dismissed it, but it became a huge thing for me and I began thinking that half the metal scene was out to cancel all the shows because everyone is a Nazi(!) and all that rubbish.

Of course, that isn't real.

Good on AMG, no complaints from me.

To the surprise of absolutely no one, they have reviewed an album released by Purity of Fire and are now taking shit in the comments. Again, perfectly fine stance to take, but now comes the time to live up to your ideals and its going to be a lot of work for them.

So this is a pretty weak argument against what they're attempting to do, which deserves all the praise in the world, considering how things stand now.

There's always the option to make another list, title it "Best Albums by Terrible People 2022" or something

There's no way to know all about each and every musician involved into every band we listen to, and it seems absurd to me to even want it. So that list would be more like "Best Albums by People That Are Known to Do or Promote Terrible Things".

There definitely are parts of the internet where this becomes a thing (you own an Mgla album / your band is from x country / you have been local support for Marduk etc = you are a Nazi)

I can't stand Nazis as much as the next guy, but I think it's unnecessary to survey every band you include in your magazine to see if they have any affiliation with national socialism, unless the band is openly fascist. Besides, whether or not supporting a band = supporting Nazis is very vague and debatable. What if a past member was a Nazi once upon a time? What if the singer sieg heiled years ago? It's difficult to ascertain whether a band is categorically a Nazi band or not, as there are so many factors.

It is, generally speaking, not hard to ascertain whether a band is a nazi band or not. If your music is nazi, you're a nazi band. If your guitarist is a nazi, you're a nazi band. If you're signed to Darker Than Black, you're a nazi band. It's actually quite easy to figure out... Also, if you consider yourself a journalist, it is actually quite important to vet who and what you're covering and know what they're about.

Haha you seem to be describing r/RABM. Yeah, that subreddit is a hyper puritanical trash heap but people like that make up a pretty small (albeit very vocal) minority of internet discourse. I wouldn't worry about them too much.

That subreddit, yes, but also the private facebook groups mentioned by another poster.

I see it as just another version of the social media problem (making people think that what they see online is an accurate representation of real life) and that's why I bring it up. It's very easy for someone to see those groups and overreact into thinking the world has gone mad and that they'll be a target next. They then express that fear in a place like this and endup looking like a madman.

I raise this in the hope that people in that position can take a step back, breathe and not be swept up in something that shouldn't have this much of an impact on them.

that shouldn't have this much of an impact on them.

I'm not standing against RABM and I share the same sentiments as you.

What I'm referring to is people who see some of the over the top takes / opinions that do exist within RABM circles (a recent example I saw was "gas station sunglasses are right wing, soneone wearing gas station sunglasses is a Nazi sympathiser at best") and then take that as being common behaviour endorsed by everyone. I'm talking about the people that come into threads like this and explode about cancel culture and censorship and then end up falling into the problem themselves. I'm telling those people that dumb things exist on the internet and not to be consumed by it.

I don't agree with many of the opinions, takes and called for actions that I see in RABM circles. But I do agree with them on "Fuck Nazis", so I focus on that and don't let the rest of it get to me.

People get banned here more often than any message board community I've ever been on.

That's because most other message board communities have ineffective or absent mods. Rubbing shit on the walls is not tolerated for long here.

Personally, I think that Nazis should be generally shunned and excluded from public platforms, not because I disagree with them, but because they follow an inherently violent ideology which isn't compatible with civilized society. It's the same logic behind seeing a guy in a store shitting on the floor while screaming "ALL THE GAYS SHOULD DIE"; you don't kindly rebuke that dude, you remove him from the premises and get him institutionalized. Nothing to be gained by treating that guy as an equal with equally valid opinions to a sane person.

Best case scenario with a Nazi is that they're some deeply troubled person who needs psychological/psychiatric help ASAP, and worst case scenario is that they're some evil fuckhead relishing the idea of a race war and subsequent ethnic cleansing. Neither of these people should be legitimized through engagement.

Why is the onus on us to explain to them why it's bad to believe in genocide and racism? I believe people can change but I also don't think we have to coddle them if they are that set in their beliefs. Maybe they should try considering other peoples' humanity.

Just see Death in June who has been canceled numerous times despite not actually being nazis and simply having a strong historical interest in ww2.

The better approach is to engage them in discussion where the error or their views can be explained. Maybe they won't get it and will still continue to think stupid things, but it is better than further radicalizing them by driving them into the corner with the other actual neo-nazis. If you do it enough times at least some of the will think, "Maybe I was wrong?".

Of course with your approach there is also risk of ending up with witch trails where people are accused of being nazis or some other bad thing regardless if that is true or not. Just see Death in June who has been canceled numerous times despite not actually being nazis and simply having a strong historical interest in ww2. If you engage people rather than reflexively shun or punish them these errors will be far less common.

Why is the onus on us to explain to them why it's bad to believe in genocide and racism? I believe people can change but I also don't think we have to coddle them if they are that set in their beliefs. Maybe they should try considering other peoples' humanity.