You know that there are limits and turning points when what someone does in his private life can affect other people right?. Like being a child predator is a thing people do in his private life, but you would not say thats not anyone business. I will asumme you havent think about that

Yeah, this one stings. Mustaine was never a great person, but it's gotten worse and worse with the years. His dumbass rants on covid and sanitary tyranny were stupid as all Hell.



Unless you actually talk about something specific here, you just look like you're about to start ranting about "cancel culture".

Anyway, what does forgiveness and second chances have to do with this thread? Were not talking about people who did one bad thing and apologized, we're talking about people who have shown dickbag behavior over a long period of time, never apologized for it, and who are still dickbags for the most part.

In other words, cut the bullshit.



The two examples I gave in the OP are of musicians who behave like dicks on stage. It's not exactly "private life" to spit on your fans, punch them in the face, and violently throw them to the ground before kicking them repeatedly.

Also, Kvarforth's statement about how he was happy about fans of his committing suicide because of his music was a public statement. Not something he once said to his sister at a familly barbecue.

Bro hopefully the no forgiveness no second chance is a parody of Dave mustaine whining about getting booted the fuck outta Metallica, knowing this forum I somehow fucking doubt it tho

Also I can't help but have mild respect out of abusing the fans, not like over the top, but I think fans tend to act entitled more often than not, so it's nice when someone shits on their own fanbase tho obviously not to the degree you're talking about

That I'm happy my fans commit suicide is kinda no different than mayhem saying the same thing about the lyrics of freezing moon tho, I don't even think it's reprehensible or some shit, I think it's just good marketing

Honestly, I'm pretty inconsistent about the whole idea of avoiding otherwise appealing musicians who have said, done, or been credibly accused of unethical things in their extra-musical lives.

In general it strikes me as a solid, sensible idea, but I'm not 100% explicitly clear on the logic behind it (does "Don't enable shitbaggery" = "Don't give money to shitbags" = "Don't even give a tiny amount of money to shitbags" = "Don't even risk being mistaken for someone who's passively, indirectly, symbolically okay with shitbaggery"...?). And even when I am clearer on the logic, I make some allowances that seem pretty arbitrary or weakly rationalized, or I content myself with something like the "smell test" or the "ew" factor: "I can't listen to this without feeling gross."

And honestly, in some cases - just to speak for myself - the logic seems in part to be a rationalization, the stronger motive being to affirm kinship with certain subsets of the music-listening community, or the larger ethical-political community. If the folks at MA and MA-type places seem generally all right with owning albums by Neurosis, or Leviathan, or Swans...or to some extent Drudkh - all actual examples for me - then I'm likelier to keep enjoying them with a (mostly) easy conscience; whereas if the folks at some sketchy far-right site boast of listening to, I dunno, Inquisition, as if to take a stance of defiance against the "snowflakes," then I'll be likelier to avoid even checking out Inquisition.

(I'm probably making it sound like I refuse to "think for myself" and just let the culture at large make my decisions for me, but that's not really it. I just don't think people make these judgment calls in a psychic vacuum, without social cues and rules of thumb factoring in. Community values always play at least some small part in people's ethical decisions, ISTM; I don't think anyone is wholly insulated from the sense of, "Can I do (or not do) this thing that appeals to me on some level, without to some extent losing my place in the community?" That's not to say that that sense makes for the decisive factor, or absolves people of responsibility; a person should also be expected to take a step back and critically reflect on their own decision to be a part of certain communities.)

And sure, it's tedious in a way to have to think of the ethical ramifications of one's consumption choices (there's always the option of, "Who cares, just enjoy it"), but that doesn't mean the obligation isn't there. But again, I'm pretty inconsistent with this stuff - not trying to hold myself up as an example so much as describe the sort of thought-processes I have going on.

These arguments happen all the time on here. At the end of the day nobody can stop you from listening to whatever you want. Nothing's ever going to be clear cut. It is funny that NSBM always gets to be the point where the debates come from. Nobody would argue like that about like, pro-pedophile bands or whatever.

At the same time passively consuming art isn't the same thing as activism, and it all just comes down to personal choice. I hate all that Nazi shit and don't get how you listen to something like Grand Belial's Key, but eh I probably have plenty of music that features members who have done questionable things. You hear stories of old 70s rockers doing all sorts of shady, creepy shit. I like that style of music a lot though.

Ultimately it just comes down to not wanting to put my money toward harmful shit... buying some old Bowie albums or listening to Pantera or whatever isn't hurting anybody. I quit listening to Inquisition and the comic Louis CK just because I don't really want to anymore, it just seems like it'd be queasy to do that anymore.

Mostly I just don't like the justifications for it, the attempts to paint others as hypocrites or whatever. It all seems a bad use of time.

I'll be honest the whole concept of don't give money even seems kinda pointless just in the sense that the mere existence of a dollar bill itself is basically a sign that Baphomet has arrived lol

Even when it extends to Nazi bands I have a sneaking suspicion all you're getting them realistically is some more heroin or alcohol so they can continuously feed their victim complex, I'd probably accomplish that very same thing giving away my money to someone standing outside of a gas station day in and out, correct me where I'm wrong as I'm sure some may have a cause, but a metal band Nazi in the underground probably isn't getting any amount of money that would allow them to buy anything more than a cheap porno mag or some shitty cigarettes.

I only use Nazi cuz that's the extreme example, my point still stands for bands that aren't that but on the same level of underground "fame" it's not like I'm paying for the new mansion or the trophy wife's titty implants you know what I mean

Also, emp isn't David Bowie an actual proven pedophile, I know Iggy pop is so I don't realistically see the difference, but I understand the point, it's just I disagree when it seems people act as if I'm funding something that'll actually change anything y'know

Edit: Im not coming from the position of not getting people individually may feel uncomfortable I just feel there's a lot of implication that gets thrown around by people that are uncomfortable towards the people that aren't is all

I kinda stopped listening to Absu as much, after all that stuff Proscriptor said when Melissa transitioned. Seemed like a bit of a dick move on Proscriptor's part, and even though it's certainly possible there's more going on behind the scenes, the whole thing kinda hit a bit close-to-home considering my own current transition.

I think with this stuff in general, it's all very personal and naturally inconsistent. Can't stop people listening to dodgy stuff, but it's more the push-back whenever someone might feel questioned on it. Like, if I were to say that i don't listen to nazi shit, then it's not a (big) problem if someone else does - it's when they start firing back, as if it's wrong to not want to listen to that stuff in the first place.

True, the money thing isn't really a big argument. I just hate fascists at the end of the day... if the whole ethos is all about that then I got no use for it.

Fair enough about Bowie; I've just heard a bunch of stories about a bunch of those guys. Ought to do more solid research.

With the nazi stuff there's some real ties behind some of these bands and right wing terror groups. Financially supporting some random asshole is one thing but the nazi stuff is another- some of them are just isolated basement dwelling dipshits, some of them are not. A good example of a very high profile intersection is several Atomwaffen guys showing up to Destroying Texas a few years ago and being reported on by fucking PBS because they weren't even looking at it from the black metal angle- they were just following around a dangerous terror group that, as it turns out, has connections to metal. Wolves of Vinland is another that has those connections in our scene. They're hardly the only two.

It's disingenuous to pretend that the nazi stuff is harmless. These guys recruit teenagers from our scene, they get money from our scene, and they make connections in our scene. I am not saying there's a perfect solution here or proposing one but let's not be blind about it, either.

https://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/arti ... o-houston/

Yeah I don't even know who all these bands are, but this is definitely a good counterpoint to why that shit shouldn't be tolerated... real world damages and all.

Wolves and Atomwaffen are not bands- they're right wing white supremacist hate groups with heavy ties to the NS side of the metal scene.

Man, I stated in my OP that I didn't want this thread to be derailed with NSBM, white supremacist and racist shit.

Also, I don't get why some of you guys get so absurdly defensive about these kinds of thread. In my OP I stated why I, on an entirely personnal level, didn't really enjoy the music of Shining and Marduk because of musicians involved in these projects. At no point did I ever suggest that others should feel the same and/or that listening to their music, buying their merch or attending their concerts made you a bad person.

They seem very similar to “I am a US marine with over 300 confirmed kills, and my agents are tracking you IP address as we speak” copypasta.

Well good thing I wasn't responding to something you said.

And plus I'm arguing about money more than nsbm I used that as an example because that's usually where I see that argument used

Ah, my bad for misunderstanding the point of the thread. When it comes to off-putting personalities detracting from enjoyment, and things like that, I don't really have any examples of my own. (It just naturally called to my mind the nearby topic of unethical persons as deal-breakers.)

Michael Jackson…

Lol

Jon Nödtveidt maybe was one of bigger cunt of Swedish scene but I don’t give a f@@@,I don’t have problem with music of Dissection…

It’s a very difficult thread ,for me is a choice personal.

I respect who don’t listen Burzum because Varg,or nazi shit bands..

The more I hear that "we would run out of music to listen to if we stopped supporting all the bad people making it" line, the more it just reads like people projecting. There's a pretty big distinction between a shitty thing somebody does because they're human and a shitty thing somebody does because they're a bigot or a predator. I certainly haven't given money to a hate group nor assaulted my mother, and I wouldn't stop listening to a band if it was found out that one of their members once forgot their kid's birthday or ripped the tag off a mattress.

You were not really responding to anything, actually. Empyreal made a brief comment about how buying Bowie records didn't have significant impact on anything, and you just went on a good ol' fashioned rant to justify buying NSBM shit, even though there are very real impacts to supporting NSBM bands, as was demonstrated by others in this thread, and also in plenty of previous threads about NSBM.

But hey, if you want more proofs that supporting NSBM is actually harmful, you might enjoy this read: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2020/01 ... v-xbDLBWn0

It's a nice detailled article about far-right groups organizing in militarizied militias in eastern Europe, using music (namely M8l8th's music and all projects involving Alexey Levkin) to promote their ideology and to recruit young and impressionnable kids to further indoctrinate them, while also trainning them in mixed martial arts, military grade weapons and whatnot.



It's just the laziest way people found to avoid cognitive dissonance. If they just convince themselves (and others) that all people are bad, then it makes them feel okay with buying records made by actual sexual predators, nazis, white supremacists and other dickheads.

It's crazy how fast these kind of people gravitate towards threads like these. My OP was about sharing bands that we personnally, as individuals, cannot seem to get into or enjoying because of the musicians involved. How little faith do you have in your own rhetoric if you feel threatened by this...

Your post didn't derail the thread. You just took a personnal stance to explain how you react to unethical or immoral individuals. Your post was actually quite interresting to read. I didn't write a reply as I didn't have anything to add to your reflexions at the time, but it was a welcome one.

What bothers me is the urge that some people feel to go "I will keep listening to and supporting any and all artists I like even if I know them to be nazis, and you can't tell me I'm a bad person for it", even though the point of the thread was absolutely not to call out others in the first place.

Black metal is full of dump people or accept this or don’t listen..

Simple

Nazi are another story,is unacceptable.

But Heavy Metal was born to scandal and going vs system with nice people which were not to be taken as an example

Replying to heaven duff

No genius I actually was referring to the post above me that said they subscribed to the philosophy of not financially supporting somebody they didnt like, spare me, especially because I said that the rule applied to any other type of underground band I just used nsbm as the prime example considering that's typically what that argument in particular is associated with, you'd think you could follow the sequence of events in a thread you're trying to say you need to keep all sacred

It seems Empyreal was the only person who understood what I was actually saying, Jesus fucking christ, it wasn't even that eloquent of a point

You're just flat out being disingenuous it's kinda bogus bro you just make a lot of assumptions

Sure. And you keep telling yourself there is no issue with financially supporting people who promote genocidal ideologies even if there is solid evidence of the contrary. You picked a shitty example by talking about NSBM if the point you wanted to make is that we shouldn't care about who we are supporting financially, because it apparently doesn't have any important impacts.

You're also neglecting the fact that if a lot of people boycott a band or musician, and call for their deplatforming, for their shitty behavior, it can lead to much more impact then just denying them the money to buy a cheap porn mag or shitty cigarettes. It's denying them a platform to promote and spread their ideology, and it's reducing their financial means to attain their objectives. With NSBM being mainly about ideology and less about the music itself, it should be obvious to anyone who isn't completely delusional, that supporting them financially is very much an unethical choice.

And here we are again, debatting fucking neo-nazis because some of us really can't seem to be able to repress their urge to defend them even when the thread has nothing to do with them.

And before you lose your shit and tell me again that I'm making assumptions, and that you're not defending neo-nazis, the debate is quite simple here: you had someone taking a stance against financially supporting, ever so slightly, people with shitty political views that they directly promote in their music, and you willingly decided to take the opposite stance. I know your stance is not a direct support of nazism, but you're basically like the guy who argues that it doesn't really matter if you throw your cigarette butt in the street because there are a whole lot of sources of pollution in the world anyway. Just don't fucking throw your cigarette butt in the street.

Too Disma are nazi or the private doesn’t matter?

Based on what you choose not to take a band?private ideology or lyrics?
Or don’t make difference?

Just curiosity

Most of the time is isn't because of the musicians involved but more the look of a band as a whole which turns me off.
Also often I am not interested in bands when they seem utterly dumb in interviews.

I'm not in the mood for posting a bunch of names of musicians who I think are just aholes. We could all make huge lists I guess. There are even plenty aholes I do enjoy, musically.

But I have to mention Gloryhammer, don't I.
Because of the predator James Cartwright
Yes, I wrote a good review on their first album but then the stories came....

There's a fair amount of stuff that I listen to that's stained by people involved:
Burzum
Dissection
Gorgoroth
Emperor (and anything that Faust was involved in)
Darkthrone's Transylvanian Hunger (since Varg wrote some lyrics)
Inquisition (though I've listened to them far less since that last scandal)
Gloryhammer/Alestorm
Pantera
Mayhem
Thorns
Drudkh
Sword of Darkness (obscure Vietnamese symphonic black metal band, once they broke up one of the guys started Vothana)
Michael Jackson
Iced Earth
Judas Priest (Dave Holland material)
Young and in the Way
Horna (stuff before Werewolf left the band)
Pretty much any 80's glam band that didn't check if their groupies were underage or not

I really, really hate to admit that the last Nokturnal Mortum, Drowning the Light and Satanic Warmaster albums were actually enjoyable, because all three bands involve dishonest pieces of shit about "oh we're not nazis"

The only two I can outright remember that actions of a band member actively turned me away from the band are:
Carpe Noctem
Goatlord

Not metal but I recently learned what Randy Scott (founder of Art Data Interactive and the main guy behind the surprisingly good soundtrack (and the only good thing about)) Doom on the 3DO did. That felt like Inquisition all over again.

I'd finance some select NSBM bands if I knew my money goes to good ends, such as band members buying drugs and shit for self consumption so that they kill themselves slowly but surely.

Who said I don't throw my cigarette butts in the street bro

Idk you're just never gonna hear what I mean in that realistically you have more blood on your hands buying an adidas track suit than some random Ukrainian black metal band, it's about percentage, and the line of thinking you're gonna continuously tell me is not really ever gonna be the higher percentage.

You clearly have a bit of a instant reflex to the mere mention of nsbm, but do you really think it's actually more unethical of a thing to spend money on than lets go with what I mentioned a pornography magazine, the mere existence of which would certainly add to the possibility of real life people being forcibly exploited to produce pornography to add to the growing demand for it, now of course I could say viewing it would make one guilty of subconsciously enabling some of the more unsavory ways in which it could be produced, it's just that more often than not people just want what they want regardless of any big implication about oh x gender was objectified to make it or x race continues to be persecuted because of it, you have to do some mental gymnastics around that because otherwise you'll just live in total hell.

Bit of a detour at the end more so but seriously why is nsbm the only unethical thing to spend money on when this whole fucking world is built upon making and spending money on things that are unethical

I tend to avoid the biggest assholes - Inquisition I only listen to the albums that have long been purchased, and only occasionally; Nokturnal Mortum is probably the only NSBM I shamfeully listen to, but then it's only Lunar Poetry and Return of the Vampire, because they're at the very top of the folkish black metal pyramid to me. Good thing the rest of their discography doesn't do it for me (Goat Horns is OK, but every time I listen to it, I think "I'd rather be listening to Lunar Poetry" anyway).

I'm sure there are bands I listen to with various assholes, douche bags, etc. Unless they're absolutely terrible I try not to think about the people behind the music. Some people just make it hard or impossible to do.

I couldnt agree more; thats pretty much me. So much sounds the same-y and is quite often done by weird guys its a pitty. Bands like Mayhem and Burzum anyway never did a lot for me, i consider them to be mostly 1. hype and 2. admittedly orginators of a new sound, but not that good in terms of songwriting (yes i know: filosofem ...) Shining fits the topic though, because they have some good material but i cant stand the musicians involved. Apart from that Mustaine and that weirdo from Iced Earth, though the last albums i did really like anyway have been night of the stormrider and rust in peace - both aged old, well...

Good thoughts. Where I am in my own mental gymnastics re. ethical consumption, I find it helpful to try to distinguish between the morally obligatory and the "supererogatory" - fancy technical term for "praiseworthy but not required" or "praiseworthy but tolerably omittable."

Having some general idea that there are morally problematic (but nevertheless legal) choices one can make as a consumer, and making some sort of effort to avoid or limit one's economic participation in those morally problematic things - that to me seems pretty close to obligatory. But beyond that, getting into the specifics (say, "Don't shop at Walmart," "Don't buy veal or gas-guzzling SUVs," "Don't listen to NSBM," etc., etc.), it's really hard to come up with a definitive, consistent, livable set of guidelines. And even if you do have anything close to a universal, well-thought-out set of "do's and don't's," it sucks to feel obliged to judge and sort of sneer at every consumer who deviates from it (as well as yourself, when you have lapses of your own); it sucks to risk being seen as a fanatic or purist, or worse, a person who alienates potential allies.

At the same time, we definitely should (in some vague way or another) encourage one another to be more conscientious consumers, to help bring about a less destructive, oppressive, unsustainable economy. It's a giant, seemingly hopeless mess to come to grips with, but I also think it's pretty clear that we shouldn't say, "Whatever, buy what you want, it doesn't matter." Past that, I'm not really comfortable with telling anyone, "You're a bad person if you buy/consume/shop at X, Y, or Z."

Sorry, just sorta venting, but I sympathize.

Well, obviously this is a thread about music, so the unethical things discussed are gonna be music. Music that is, I might add, inherently disgusting and harmful all the time. The simple reason why no one mentioned any of the other things is that no one was asking about them. I think all of us know that many things in the world are built by unethical means. But it doesn't mean that we shouldn't ignore NSBM when we encounter it, especially in a thread of this topic.

I'm actually starting to feel sorry for Vektor and Di Santo. He and his wife got divorced, there was no charges pressed or anything like that so its over with. I've had friends in toxic relationships before and if anyone were to have taken a phone and randomly recorded an incident either party could look like an abuser, both were as bad as each other, and thats what it sounds like. There was no context provided, we have no idea what happened before or after the video and tbf, ive seen far, far worse videos. Di Santo recently came out and clarified what happened before and to my knowledge his ex wife hasnt disputed it. It was a bad relationship that has now ended, both he and his wife have moved on in their lives, its time people online stop lynching the guy imo.

Di Santos biggest mistake was not coming out right away clarifying what happened, instead he left it alone thinking it would go away and it obviously hadn't. I usually think cries of cancel culture are an excuse for pieces of shit to complain that they cant say the horrible shit they want to, but if there is such a thing as cancel culture, they've really gone at Di Santo and Vektor.

Yeah, that's a bunch of strawman fallacies on top of whataboutism. I don't feel like digging into these arguments I never made. You just keep buying your Aryan Supremacy records, nobody is stopping you.



Except feeding yourself and wearing clothes are needs. Some people buy cheap, unethical clothes/food because they don't know about the conditions of the workers, they can't afford ethical clothes/food, don't have access to ethical clothes/food, etc.

Listening to (or actually buying) music, while I love it and wouldn't want to live without it, is not a need. Even if it was, there is a ton of non-problematic music. Plus, if you actually know for a fact that the musicians involved are pieces of shit, it's even worse. Knowingly sending money to artists you know to be pieces of shit is nothing like buying Nesquik for your kids. Sure it would be better not to give money to Nestlea, but they are a food conglomerate controlling a massive chunk of food distribution over the world. Again. It's a terrible comparison, because you can very very very very easily avoid financially supporting shitty musicians, while it's much harder to avoid buying unethical food.

And like you said, Defenestrated, we can't be a 100% ethical, a 100% perfect, and it's not realistic to expect people to make the most ethical choices all the time. We have to decide on what we should focus on, what we should do and try to stick to whatever is the most important to us as individuals. However, it seems very obvious to me that stuff like financially supporting white supremacists is very easy to avoid, and quite obviously the ethical thing to do, regardless of the amount of whataboutism thrown our way.



I wouldn't say I feel sorry for him, but it does look like they were both very terrible to each other. Now that it seems to actually be done and over. I don't feel like I should activel avoid Vektor.

Basically only musicians that have directly that I've dealt with one way or another be it personally, professionally, both in person or in correspondence. Everything else doesn't matter to me.

What in god's name has Carpe Noctem done that is so bad? It must be quite something, considering that you'll overlook Burzum, Nokturnal Mortem, Satanic Warmaster and even Inquisition but you draw the line at Carpe Noctem... for some reason.

Sounds about right, HeavenDuff.

My behavior as a consumer is faaar from spotless, but I can give myself credit for adopting a few conscientious habits, in terms of e.g. reducing the carbon footprint and withholding support from harmful social-political actors...even if I occasionally/often allow myself to deviate from these. I think this describes a fairly reasonable and not uncommon approach to things. It could always be better, but nobody makes all the sacrifices they should, and, as the cliche has it, the perfect shouldn't be the enemy of the good.

On a somewhat humorous note, a while back, I think I saw someone post an image of a sort of anti-Nazi metalhead scale, ranging from (let's say) "I am a shameless, unapologetic NSBM fan" at 0%, to "I blacklisted a band whose side-project once hired Rob Darken's cousin as a session keyboardist in 1993" at 100%. Something like that, though I'm making up the examples. I reckon I'd be about a 65-70% overall - I've got a few of the usual guilty pleasures in my collection.

I think your point about the specifics is where I draw the line myself as well, I've just kinda accepted this meaningless materialistic world as life, especially in the US I think it's too big to ever escape at this point

But also as a consumer I feel no obligation to feel guilty or wrong over buying what I want, my waking breath alone helps feed this amazing system we all love so much, why would I make a moral stand against something my mere existence will always validate.

Again, Im literally talking about the concept of money and where it goes, I just don't really see spending money as a thing that really has anything to do with ethics because it's by design already tainted.

People making their own choices is exactly that, their choice, I'm just not gonna be made to think I'm an unethical scumbag over buying some record when I probably accomplished far worse things in this world buying a bag of fucking tomatoes from the grocery store like get real here make your own choice but don't guilt me over not following it

In the end if I like something and I wanna buy it I will and if I don't I won't people can think whatever they please, but the good thing about being alive is I don't have to give a shit lol

I think people really in general like their life too be super convenient, so they don't go to bat for shit, but think of it like this, is there really anything wrong with the person who just minds their own business and treats others normally, I think the world would be better if more people did that

You've made quite a few wide over-encompassing statements that are supposed to absolve everyone of any kind of responsibility on a weird ultra-specific technicality that you arbitrarily determine to be significant enough to justify just about anything and everything. Yet these statements don't hold in front of even the simplest, most elemental analysis. Like would you honestly argue that paying a pimp to fuck an underage girl in Thailand is just as bad as buying tomatoes from a food conglomerate because money is "by deisng already tainted"?

That just seems like a whole lot of bs you tell us and yourself not take any kind of moral responsability over anything you do.



You sure like to justify yourself a lot for someone who doesn't give a shit.

And yeah, if someone wants to share whatever ideas they have in a public manner, they should expect others to comment and criticize these ideas. Whatever you do with this criticism afterward is entirely your own. But it does feel very disingenuous to go into a discussion if you're not willing to consider others' opinions and ideas and if you were just going to stick to whatever you already believed before the conversation even started.

Also, do I really need to explain to you again how buying an album of music for your entertainment is entirely different from buying food that you need to stay alive?



I think I remember that image you're talking about, or at least the bit about Rob Darken's cousin or something along those lines. It's pretty funny, and I like the general idea behind such a thing, It at least as this effect of putting things in perspective. Sometimes I feel the guilty by association is a little too deeply rooted in some of the accusations that are thrown around.

Also, this got me thinking about Neurosis, whom were brought up in this thread earlier. And I personnally feel uncomfortable with throwing all the guys in the band under the bus for the behavior of one of their now ex-bandmates. Scott Kelly was kicked out of the band because of the things he did, and the guys in Neuroris condemned his behavior and took a firm stance against domestic abuse and psychological violence. I've never felt that it was fair to the other guys to have their life work and legacy tainted by the actions of one person.