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CoffeeCat wrote:

I'm 100% with everyone about Arch Enemy making stale, pedestrian music, but would you say, for instance, Iron Maiden was wasting its potential when it's been able to book sold-out shows for 30+ years? It's not like Iron Maiden has done anything innovative or even particularly good in the last 15 years. Is the difference just that people like Maiden more? Would you say the members have wasted their talent, because they settled on a safe and unambitious sound that they mastered?

So that you can understand the OP better or much better, you should listen (if you haven't already done so) to the last two Lorna Shore albums and also the two Immortal Disfigurement singles. After that, then compare it to the Arch Enemy albums made with Alissa and Jeff.

ThStealthK wrote:

CoffeeCat wrote:

Man, Lorna Shore might be an example for this, since it's one of these cases where I can see the instrumental proficiency but it's also some of the legit worst shit I ever heard.

If in 2023 you still classify something you don't like as shit, then you should simply go to psychologist or psychiatrist.

Is it wasted potential to have expert-level musicians decide to play in a highly popular band [...] living about as well as metal musicians can, and are making tens if not hundreds of thousands of fans happy.

With Arch Enemy, Amott has actually said that he only allows Loomis to contribute leads. If you have one if the world's best metal guitarists in your band but won't let him help with songwriting, what else is it but wasted talent?

Ivan Drago wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised if it was true, but I would love to actually read/hear the interview or context where Amott would have actually said that. It sounds like a weird thing to publicly admitt.

HeavenDuff wrote:

Ivan Drago wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised if it was true, but I would love to actually read/hear the interview or context where Amott would have actually said that. It sounds like a weird thing to publicly admitt.

It's a few years old, and admittedly he doesnt flat out say it, but here's the interview, about 10 minutes in he talks about Loomis' contributions

https://youtu.be/f19hvobCj4A

They *were* capable of so much more. Like Metallica, there is no evidence to show that they still have the ability to write songs like they used to. People growing old and changing is not the same as wasting talent.

Putting bands like Iron Maiden and Metallica in a thread such as this is seriously fucking retarded on every level.

Bands that are selling gold and platinum records on every release, such as these bands are not wasting their talent. You not liking a recent Maiden release is not the same as Maiden wasting talent. These bands are manned by professionals making an absolutely killer living in the craft they have spent their lives mastering. Nothing about this suggests wasting talent.

Eric Adams is a gifted vocalist, but sadly his talent has been wasted for a long time in a band that became unintentional self-parody. Many fine trad/USPM projects could be improved if they had a singer of his caliber.

Iron Maiden. The last two albums have been mostly crap. One of my favourite bands and I know they are capable of so much more.

MoonlitKnight wrote:

I really like the Manowar versions of Nessun Doram and American Trilogy.
Eric should do an album of covers.Just leave Joey out of it.

I neither like (...) 80ies Maiden

Dandelo wrote:

Iron Maiden. The last two albums have been mostly crap. One of my favourite bands and I know they are capable of so much more.

The fact that they are taking 4-6 years between albums certainly doesn't help.

kkingccrimson wrote:

MoonlitKnight wrote:

I really like the Manowar versions of Nessun Doram and American Trilogy.
Eric should do an album of covers.Just leave Joey out of it.

He would sue! Joey fucks people over with his 'business' ethics. He allows no freedom at all. Even Rhapsody and Majesty had to change names when signed under Magic Circle

I'm not disagreeing with you - he is absolutely wasted. Manowar average an album once every 10 years or whatever it is these days (4 since Triumph in '92 so 31 years for 4 albums). How lovely it would be to hear his voice elsewhere, as Manowar are certainly not delivering on studio output these days.

Pizzasmasher wrote:

I neither like (...) 80ies Maiden

Get out of here.

kkingccrimson wrote:

Dandelo wrote:

Iron Maiden. The last two albums have been mostly crap. One of my favourite bands and I know they are capable of so much more.

The fact that they are taking 4-6 years between albums certainly doesn't help.

Symphony X and Melechesh are telling Iron Maiden to hold their beer on that front.

Underworld had a few really amazing tunes - the title song, "Without You," "To Hell and Back" and "Kiss of Fire" are so good. If the whole album was at that level it'd be a classic. But the back half turns into a bunch of decent tunes that just can't live up to their best work. Still listenable but not their best album overall.

Author:	Empyreal [ Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
ThStealthK wrote: CoffeeCat wrote: I'm 100% with everyone about Arch Enemy making stale, pedestrian music, but would you say, for instance, Iron Maiden was wasting its potential when it's been able to book sold-out shows for 30+ years? It's not like Iron Maiden has done anything innovative or even particularly good in the last 15 years. Is the difference just that people like Maiden more? Would you say the members have wasted their talent, because they settled on a safe and unambitious sound that they mastered? So that you can understand the OP better or much better, you should listen (if you haven't already done so) to the last two Lorna Shore albums and also the two Immortal Disfigurement singles. After that, then compare it to the Arch Enemy albums made with Alissa and Jeff. Man, Lorna Shore might be an example for this, since it's one of these cases where I can see the instrumental proficiency but it's also some of the legit worst shit I ever heard.

Author:	ThStealthK [ Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
Empyreal wrote: ThStealthK wrote: CoffeeCat wrote: I'm 100% with everyone about Arch Enemy making stale, pedestrian music, but would you say, for instance, Iron Maiden was wasting its potential when it's been able to book sold-out shows for 30+ years? It's not like Iron Maiden has done anything innovative or even particularly good in the last 15 years. Is the difference just that people like Maiden more? Would you say the members have wasted their talent, because they settled on a safe and unambitious sound that they mastered? So that you can understand the OP better or much better, you should listen (if you haven't already done so) to the last two Lorna Shore albums and also the two Immortal Disfigurement singles. After that, then compare it to the Arch Enemy albums made with Alissa and Jeff. Man, Lorna Shore might be an example for this, since it's one of these cases where I can see the instrumental proficiency but it's also some of the legit worst shit I ever heard. If in 2023 you still classify something you don't like as shit, then you should simply go to psychologist or psychiatrist.

Author:	Empyreal [ Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
It's not equally absurd to assume that I mean everything like that literally, and don't assume that everything I say in that regard comes with the unspoken subjectivity that comes with anything when you're talking about art and quality? What exactly do you want people to say instead?

Author:	HeavenDuff [ Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
ThStealthK wrote: If in 2023 you still classify something you don't like as shit, then you should simply go to psychologist or psychiatrist. Complaining that people might be a little too hyperbolic by using the word "shit" to describe something they dislike, and suggesting that these same people are mentally ill in the same breath. This, kids, is what we call irony.

Author:	BastardHead [ Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
This Arch Enemy argument is so confusing to me because I feel like it shouldn't be controversial at all to say that Alissa and Jeff have a wide range of skills that aren't being utilized in the band. Duff explained it pretty well but I'll break it down even further to hopefully really showcase what we mean. Alissa has proven with her other projects that she has an extremely wide vocal range and a lot of diversity in her repertoire of harsh vocalizations. I've even said that I don't think The Agonist was all that good but she undeniably has a lot of different tools in her belt, and with Arch Enemy she uses one monotone growl for 99% of the time. If being able to do ten different things but only doing one of them doesn't count as "not fully utilizing your skills" then that phrase is simply meaningless. Jeff Loomis has proven across his other projects that he has a unique approach to rhythm and an absolutely absurd level of technical competency when it comes to soloing and yet in Arch Enemy he plays almost exclusively simple 4/4 midpaced riffs with standard workaday melodeath melodies instead of implementing his any of his rhythm sense or technical proficiency. And you CAN see flashes of it from time to time (there is absolutely NO WAY he didn't write that speedy off-kilter riff that kicks of Sunset Over the Empire on the newest album because it is straight out of a Nevermore album) but it's used so sparingly that it immediately stands out when it surfaces. This isn't to say that simply music is inherently bad, I actually think that certain metalheads' reflexive aversion to catchy anthemic songwriting is equally daft as requiring everything to be technically difficult and presented with a progressive edge, but here are two musicians who have absolutely proven that they have a wide skillset and have utilized practically zero of those skills since joining the band. If you just think Arch Enemy is good and Nevermore is bad then hey, taste is taste and I'm not here call you an idiot for preferring one over the other, but it shouldn't be shocking to see people lament those elements of their creativity so thoroughly shelved.

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Author:	Voidsel [ Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:37 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
CoffeeCat wrote: Is it wasted potential to have expert-level musicians decide to play in a highly popular band [...] living about as well as metal musicians can, and are making tens if not hundreds of thousands of fans happy. This is a great point. It seems we want our musicians to suffer for their art while we sit in our comfortable regular jobs. Perhaps that's why we want them to suffer, to give us a sense of edginess that balances out our own bland careers. Am I projecting here? For sure pure art is what we want most of the time, but that's often in conflict with someone else's life. Can't remember where I saw it, but there was some research that suggested, historically, art actually flourishes better with some level of commericial influence. We all know that too much and you get banal garbage but too little, where the artist has complete freedom, ends up producing self-indulgent weirdness that touches no one.

Author:	Ivan Drago [ Tue Mar 14, 2023 6:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
With Arch Enemy, Amott has actually said that he only allows Loomis to contribute leads. If you have one if the world's best metal guitarists in your band but won't let him help with songwriting, what else is it but wasted talent?

Author:	TitaniumNK [ Tue Mar 14, 2023 6:37 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
Ivan Drago wrote: With Arch Enemy, Amott has actually said that he only allows Loomis to contribute leads. If you have one if the world's best metal guitarists in your band but won't let him help with songwriting, what else is it but wasted talent? Same vibe if true:

Author:	HeavenDuff [ Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:11 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
Ivan Drago wrote: With Arch Enemy, Amott has actually said that he only allows Loomis to contribute leads. If you have one if the world's best metal guitarists in your band but won't let him help with songwriting, what else is it but wasted talent? I wouldn't be surprised if it was true, but I would love to actually read/hear the interview or context where Amott would have actually said that. It sounds like a weird thing to publicly admitt.

Author:	Ivan Drago [ Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
HeavenDuff wrote: Ivan Drago wrote: With Arch Enemy, Amott has actually said that he only allows Loomis to contribute leads. If you have one if the world's best metal guitarists in your band but won't let him help with songwriting, what else is it but wasted talent? I wouldn't be surprised if it was true, but I would love to actually read/hear the interview or context where Amott would have actually said that. It sounds like a weird thing to publicly admitt. It's a few years old, and admittedly he doesnt flat out say it, but here's the interview, about 10 minutes in he talks about Loomis' contributions https://youtu.be/f19hvobCj4A

Author:	HeavenDuff [ Tue Mar 14, 2023 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
Ivan Drago wrote: HeavenDuff wrote: Ivan Drago wrote: With Arch Enemy, Amott has actually said that he only allows Loomis to contribute leads. If you have one if the world's best metal guitarists in your band but won't let him help with songwriting, what else is it but wasted talent? I wouldn't be surprised if it was true, but I would love to actually read/hear the interview or context where Amott would have actually said that. It sounds like a weird thing to publicly admitt. It's a few years old, and admittedly he doesnt flat out say it, but here's the interview, about 10 minutes in he talks about Loomis' contributions https://youtu.be/f19hvobCj4A Well, it's almost word for word what he said. The interviewer said Loomis was a great song-writer and asked Amott if Loomis contributed anything in this department, and the first word out of Amott's mouth was "No". He later explains that he wants to keep Arch Enemy's sound the way it is. Which is very much in line with what Amott said in the intro of the interview, where he basically said the band went in War Eternal, trying to make it as much of a typical Arch Enemy album it could be. It doesn't take a lot of interpretation to understand that Amott really wants to stick to the formula ad vitam æternam, and that he doesn't have the intention of letting others take a major part in shaping the sound and identity of Arch Enemy. The idea of digging into the identity of the band and trying to come up with the most "Arch Enemy" album possible, is not a bad idea by definition, but when you listen to Amott talking, it becomes very obvious that this identity doesn't involve the creative input of the musicians around him, and that he's not doing with the purpose of really figuring out what makes Arch Enemy be Arch Enemy, but rather to stick to a formula that is popular and succesful. The fact that pretty much all their records with Alissa have sounded basically the same just goes to show that Amott is very much satisfied with this idea of treating the musicians around him as hired guns who don't ask for too much. And yeah, this sucks, because he could really do something amazing with the musicians he has with him, something that could very much retain the roots of the Arch Enemy sound (which is not bad, to be entirely fair) but push it further.

Author:	Dandelo [ Tue Mar 14, 2023 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
Iron Maiden. The last two albums have been mostly crap. One of my favourite bands and I know they are capable of so much more.

Author:	narsilianshard [ Tue Mar 14, 2023 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
They were capable of so much more. Like Metallica, there is no evidence to show that they still have the ability to write songs like they used to. People growing old and changing is not the same as wasting talent.

Author:	HeavenDuff [ Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
narsilianshard wrote: They were capable of so much more. Like Metallica, there is no evidence to show that they still have the ability to write songs like they used to. People growing old and changing is not the same as wasting talent. I tend to agree. A legendary band who released a ton of timeless classics in the 80's, not releasing truly amazing and/or groundbreaking releases 20+ years after their prime is not exactly what I would call wasting talent. And like I said earlier, people going to see Iron Maiden in concert are not going to watch them play Senjutsu in full. Sure it has fans, and it was actually well-received, but people mostly go to see them play their classics from the 80's. Having them release new material is just an added bonus for the diehard fans and those who really enjoy their newer style.

Author:	Benedict Donald [ Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
narsilianshard wrote: They were capable of so much more. Like Metallica, there is no evidence to show that they still have the ability to write songs like they used to. People growing old and changing is not the same as wasting talent. OR, they're just following their muse and aren't interested in rewriting the 80s.

Author:	Dandelo [ Tue Mar 14, 2023 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
narsilianshard wrote: They were capable of so much more. Like Metallica, there is no evidence to show that they still have the ability to write songs like they used to. People growing old and changing is not the same as wasting talent. I don't think that's true, Spit out the Bone is a great song that is reminiscent of their earlier stuff.

Author:	Terri23 [ Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
Putting bands like Iron Maiden and Metallica in a thread such as this is seriously fucking retarded on every level. Bands that are selling gold and platinum records on every release, such as these bands are not wasting their talent. You not liking a recent Maiden release is not the same as Maiden wasting talent. These bands are manned by professionals making an absolutely killer living in the craft they have spent their lives mastering. Nothing about this suggests wasting talent.

Author:	Xymosys [ Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
Dunno if he's been mentioned here, but - Jesper Strömblad. I remember him being highly ranked as guitarist wunderkind back in a day, but now it seems he is dragging along the way.

Author:	Dandelo [ Wed Mar 15, 2023 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
Terri23 wrote: Putting bands like Iron Maiden and Metallica in a thread such as this is seriously fucking retarded on every level. Bands that are selling gold and platinum records on every release, such as these bands are not wasting their talent. You not liking a recent Maiden release is not the same as Maiden wasting talent. These bands are manned by professionals making an absolutely killer living in the craft they have spent their lives mastering. Nothing about this suggests wasting talent. I know you don't agree, but could you not use the R word? It's extremely distasteful. Cheers.

Author:	~Guest 1413143 [ Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
Losing and wasting isnt the same. I neither like lorna shore, nor 80ies Maiden, but i can clearly see they dont waste talent (and of course they have it / have had it).

Author:	kkingccrimson [ Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
MoonlitKnight wrote: Eric Adams is a gifted vocalist, but sadly his talent has been wasted for a long time in a band that became unintentional self-parody. Many fine trad/USPM projects could be improved if they had a singer of his caliber. I really like the Manowar versions of Nessun Doram and American Trilogy. Eric should do an album of covers.Just leave Joey out of it.

Author:	gabber [ Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
kkingccrimson wrote: MoonlitKnight wrote: Eric Adams is a gifted vocalist, but sadly his talent has been wasted for a long time in a band that became unintentional self-parody. Many fine trad/USPM projects could be improved if they had a singer of his caliber. I really like the Manowar versions of Nessun Doram and American Trilogy. Eric should do an album of covers.Just leave Joey out of it. He would sue! Joey fucks people over with his 'business' ethics. He allows no freedom at all. Even Rhapsody and Majesty had to change names when signed under Magic Circle I'm not disagreeing with you - he is absolutely wasted. Manowar average an album once every 10 years or whatever it is these days (4 since Triumph in '92 so 31 years for 4 albums). How lovely it would be to hear his voice elsewhere, as Manowar are certainly not delivering on studio output these days.

Author:	StarshipTrooper [ Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
Pizzasmasher wrote: I neither like (...) 80ies Maiden Get out of here.

Author:	Demon Fang [ Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
kkingccrimson wrote: Dandelo wrote: Iron Maiden. The last two albums have been mostly crap. One of my favourite bands and I know they are capable of so much more. The fact that they are taking 4-6 years between albums certainly doesn't help. Symphony X and Melechesh are telling Iron Maiden to hold their beer on that front.

Author:	Zerberus [ Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
gabber wrote: kkingccrimson wrote: MoonlitKnight wrote: Eric Adams is a gifted vocalist, but sadly his talent has been wasted for a long time in a band that became unintentional self-parody. Many fine trad/USPM projects could be improved if they had a singer of his caliber. I really like the Manowar versions of Nessun Doram and American Trilogy. Eric should do an album of covers.Just leave Joey out of it. He would sue! Joey fucks people over with his 'business' ethics. He allows no freedom at all. Even Rhapsody and Majesty had to change names when signed under Magic Circle I'm not disagreeing with you - he is absolutely wasted. Manowar average an album once every 10 years or whatever it is these days (4 since Triumph in '92 so 31 years for 4 albums). How lovely it would be to hear his voice elsewhere, as Manowar are certainly not delivering on studio output these days. If at least he did guest spots for other artists that would be incredible, but from what I hear he's not even allowed to take selfies with fans without being in full stage getup

Author:	~Guest 1413143 [ Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
StarshipTrooper wrote: Pizzasmasher wrote: I neither like (...) 80ies Maiden Get out of here. Childish.

Author:	Xeper [ Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
Demon Fang wrote: kkingccrimson wrote: Dandelo wrote: Iron Maiden. The last two albums have been mostly crap. One of my favourite bands and I know they are capable of so much more. The fact that they are taking 4-6 years between albums certainly doesn't help. Symphony X and Melechesh are telling Iron Maiden to hold their beer on that front. I know Michael Romeo's been doing solo albums at least, but are Melechesh even still together? (I hope they are!)

Author:	Frank Booth [ Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:43 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
Melechesh is still a thing and are allegedly putting out an album this year.

Author:	Empyreal [ Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
Demon Fang wrote: Symphony X and Melechesh are telling Iron Maiden to hold their beer on that front. All three bands released albums back in 2015 - that was a solid year for music.

Author:	Demon Fang [ Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
That's true, the Symphony X guys have been doing their own things since Underworld. I have read they'll do something this year as Symphony X but we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

Author:	HeavenDuff [ Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
Symphony X is a borderline case for me. I have a hard time telling if they are wasting their skills and talents. Like, yes, they have been putting a lot of time into their own solo projects and/or projects with other musicians, more specifically Romeo and Allen, and both are releasing material that is less interesting then what they did with Symphony X in their prime. Allen moreso then Romeo, is releasing a lot of absolutely forgettable, mundane and uneventful music. In his specific case, I'd be comfortable saying he's wasting his talent. But at the same time, post The Odyssey releases of Symphony X have been uneven. Not bad by any stretch of the imagination, but starting with Paradise Lost, they have had weaker songs scattered throughout their releases, and I find their albums to be a bit less enjoyable as albums, although I go back to them for specific songs. In that sense, it's hard to say if someone like Romeo, or the other guys in the band, are wasting their talents and skills, since they might just be running out of ideas. They might just be passed their prime. I hope they prove me wrong with their next release though. And if not, we can still expect a few bangers out of it.

Author:	Empyreal [ Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
Paradise Lost and Iconoclast are some of the stuff I still play the most by them. PL especially is a really confident, strong piece of work. Iconoclast is quite long but it's some of their catchiest and most well-written stuff. Underworld was a little too oversimplified... could've been great, but only like half of the songs are really up to their standard.

Author:	HeavenDuff [ Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
Underworld still has bangers like Nevermore, but yeah, I tend to agree with you. Out of the three latest, Paradise Lost is still the one I revisit the most often. Set the World of Fire, Domination and the title track are all absolutely stunning tracks.

Author:	Empyreal [ Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Wasted talent and skills
Underworld had a few really amazing tunes - the title song, "Without You," "To Hell and Back" and "Kiss of Fire" are so good. If the whole album was at that level it'd be a classic. But the back half turns into a bunch of decent tunes that just can't live up to their best work. Still listenable but not their best album overall.