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Kalimata
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:29 am
Posts: 526
Location: France
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2023 8:31 am 
 

Rodman wrote:
Disembodied wrote:
Eh? People were calling Slayer extreme earlier.


Relative to what else was out there, Slayer circa 1982-1986 were infinitely more extreme than both In Flames and Dimmu at any time in each band's respective existence.


Slayer are more extreme than Dimmu Borgir and In Flames.

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Dungeon_Vic
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:00 am
Posts: 1581
Location: Greece
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:40 am 
 

TL;DR: All true about Venom, but I vote Slayer.
----
I think the basic genealogy of exteme metal simplified to Motorhead --> Venom --> Metallica --> Slayer --> Hellhammer/Frost & Bathory

...is more or less true. I agree with the imagery of Venom being the thick branch out of which come thrash, death and black. They are the proto-extreme metal band. What Hendrix is to shredding, Venom is to Extreme Metal.

Incidentally, I wrote this about a month ago (after a tired debate, are they black, yes or no):
Spoiler: show
Is Venom a black metal band? The answer is not a simple yes or no.

Venom is a heavy metal band but they are also the first extreme metal band.

They are the fathers of thrash, death and black metal as Motorhead are the grandfathers. Venom also baptized black metal and forever connected it to satanic imagery.

Venom's child, Bathory is the first real black metal band that musically and aesthetically defines the genre as we understand it today. Hellhammer, the other contender (my vote goes to Bathory), is also a direct child of Venom ("Venom kills music, Hellhammer kills Venom") and like Bathory influenced both death and black metal bands. Both of them, like their daddy Venom, were called death metal, black metal and thrash metal, when the labels hadn't been solidified yet.

Of course Venom's influence on thrash, including of course the bigs and the firsts on both sides of the Atlantic is well established and documented. Metallica (Mustaine included) and Slayer would be the first to acknowledge that Venom is right up there with Motorhead, Priest, Sabbath and Maiden in terms of impact.

Death metal? Possessed and Mantas were worshipping Venom on their demos so hard it's almost funny. Chuck names them as the point zero in death metal as far as he was concerned and his opinion carries a lot of weight.

In conclusion, taking all of the above into account, to me it is valid to call Venom proto-thrash, proto-death and proto-black. They directly inspired and influenced ALL pioneers of those three genres.

Venom is one of the most important bands in metal history that precedes and inspires (multiple) genres.
But the main thing is they also play some damn fucking mean, filthy and enjoyable heavy metal.


Hacing said all that... Slayer is the Sabbath of extreme metal in terms of impact, cultural and musical. Just not in terms of "who did it first". Slayer didn't do it first. Nevertheless, I find them more important than Venom (even if they are essential, so is everyone else named so far) and more to the point, their musical influence still being relevant, if not dominant in the whole of extreme metal. More than Frost or Bathory. Slayer is every-where. Inescapable.

Metallica is probably just as important to extreme metal as to any other genre of metal or outside metal. But since there is no lack of recognition, I think it's proper the title goes to Slayer, since being extreme always remained a part of their DNA. But, it is very important to stress that Metallica were BY FAR the most sonically brutal thing in metal in mid 1983 and a year earlier with No Life Till Leather (extremely popular in the extreme underground). Their first tours were with speed freaks Raven (and they eclipsed them as the story goes) and Venom (who they also eclipsed the story goes). They just immediately make a statement that brutality and blind speed are not dominant in their DNA, in fact they could play the opposite if they so wished; with that album intro in 1984 and Fade to Black, although how BRUTAL is Fight Fire with Fire for fucking 1984? Until 1986 (Battery/Damage qualify just fine as some of the most brutal of the year) they are also inescapable and by sheer reach, necessarily and unavoidably extremely influential to everyone, including the extremes.

But. Slayer.
_________________
42

Vic's Dungeon - Remember the Fallen:
Jeff Hanneman: Evil Notes and Sad Riffs
Chuck Schuldiner (Death)
Paul Baloff (Exodus)
Holy Terror and Keith Deen
Roger Patterson (Atheist)

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Disembodied
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:29 am
Posts: 289
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2023 6:17 pm 
 

Kalimata wrote:
No, you don't know about Venom. I'm not a huge fan but they objectively are the forerunners of all extreme metal. They're not just influential to many bands of the 90's as you've said, but to all the extreme metal of the 80's and the 90's, and consequently for all extreme metal. "Gateway band for now active bands" is not the subject at all.


I just read the initial post and it does say who was more influential in shaping the scene, so yeah, Venom fits the bill more than Dimmu.
Which is a lot less interesting topic than the one I thought it was - we all know who the founding fathers were.

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Thy Shrine
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:37 pm
Posts: 1051
Location: Golgotha
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2023 6:21 pm 
 

The answer is most certainly Celtic frost only because they cornered the market on gothic metal which makes them a direct influence on far more genres and different facets of metal

Any other opinion is genuinely wrong in my opinion
_________________
So what? You're just gonna listen to this garbage metal noise, and grow your hair long, and not get laid?


Perhaps.

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Disembodied
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:29 am
Posts: 289
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2023 6:24 pm 
 

Kalimata wrote:
Rodman wrote:
Disembodied wrote:
Eh? People were calling Slayer extreme earlier.


Relative to what else was out there, Slayer circa 1982-1986 were infinitely more extreme than both In Flames and Dimmu at any time in each band's respective existence.


Slayer are more extreme than Dimmu Borgir and In Flames.


They weren't to my adolescent teenage self in the mid-90s. Growls were the most extreme thing you could do in metal. It might not seem that way now because they're more commonplace.

Not to mention, the Divine Intervention songs that were getting radioplay were particularly, well, soft compared to Subterranean and For All Tid.

Reign in Blood and earlier are heavier than DI, but are still thrash which I don't call "extreme".

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werewolfgraveyard
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2022 5:10 am
Posts: 203
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2023 8:39 pm 
 

Rodman wrote:
Disembodied wrote:
Eh? People were calling Slayer extreme earlier.


Relative to what else was out there, Slayer circa 1982-1986 were infinitely more extreme than both In Flames and Dimmu at any time in each band's respective existence.


This so much.

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xfydr
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2023 5:32 pm
Posts: 4
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2023 6:13 pm 
 

Venom, Slayer, Bathory and Death. Honorable mention to the German thrash scene, Sodom in particular.

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