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Lee Harrison
Metalhead

Joined: Mon May 30, 2022 6:28 am
Posts: 1458
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2023 7:46 pm 
 

thewrll wrote:
lord_ghengis wrote:
Lee Harrison wrote:
exceptions that prove the rule.

Statement that proves a dickhead.



I mean this isn't new.

Better a dickhead that have zero arguments…

And trolling or offend people like you…

Thank moderators…
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BastardHead
Worse than Stalin

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
Posts: 10861
Location: Oswego, Illinois
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2023 9:31 pm 
 

Bro nobody is trolling, they're calling you a dickhead because people have been giving detailed, thorough, well thought out explanations of the myriad of elements that help define and unify various death metal bands and you just keep responding with "no it's all about the vocals", and then when people give numerous examples of death metal bands with clean vocals or no vocals at all, and examples of bands with death growls but don't strictly play death metal, you respond with "those things that prove me wrong actually prove me right".

The only guy without arguments here is the one who keeps saying "nuh uh".
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lord_ghengis
Still Standing After 38 Beers... hic

Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:31 pm
Posts: 5956
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2023 9:48 pm 
 

Honestly don't know the decorum standards these days, I just wanted to take a pot shot because I thought it was funny, so if it's moddable that's on me haha.
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pentalarc22
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:28 pm
Posts: 63
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2023 10:56 pm 
 

Disembodied wrote:
pentalarc22 wrote:

Chromatism (did I actually spell that right on the first try?) and scales. Death metal commonly has a significantly high degree of chromaticism than other forms of metal, at least other forms accepted here. (Nu-metal, and related 'core genres often have an even higher level of chromaticism. (Hmm, does that mean Arnold Schoenberg is trendy and accessible? Can I get an Alfred Schnittke t-shirt at Hot Topic? I spelled Schnittke for that wisecrack.)


Chromaticism is not the same as Schoenberg's 12-tone technique - the latter uses each of the 12 chromatic tones in equal proportions, while most death metal songs will simply use chromatic elements without regard for tonal balance.

Though, if you happen to find a death metal song which does use 12-tone technique I'd be happy to hear it.

My guess is that it would be hard to even find death metal which strictly adheres to chromaticism as a style throughout an entire song - there are likely to be diatonic elements found even if only occasionally. Again, happy to be proven wrong here!

If I had to pinpoint a "style" generally used in death metal, I'd probably express it broadly as a preference for dissonance or atonality.


Sorry, I think my wisecrack confused things. What I was trying to express that death metal is more chromatic than most forms of metal, and that is one of the things that, to me, separates it from thrash.

There is a reason, spoilered because it is a tangent, but it would explain some of my perspective here, as well as why I'm so much fucking fun at parties.
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I'm only starting to exist again in any public form, and recent events have left me with a both a better understanding of my tendency to go too far sometimes, and, ironically, even less of a filter than I had before. I also have an unusual perspective because of my specific musical tastes, and the way I got into metal. Suffice to say that I've been in a lot of arguments from Pantera fans, but from both sides of the extremity spectrum. I also talk to fellow metalheads the same way I talk to fellow fans of classical music. Same thing with every other genre and subgenre. Because I hate to sound like one of those "it's just music maaaan" guys, but . . . it's just music. The same thing that attracts me to metal is the same thing that attracts me to riot grrrl music, grunge, goth, alternative, industrial, witch house, and yes, Mahler. (and Schnittke for that matter). I hear the same thing in Mahler's 6th Symphony as I do in"Strawberry Gashes" and "Vivica" by Jack off Jill as I do in "Embracing Emptiness" and "Existence is Punishment" (by Crowbar, though something tells me I didn't have to specify that here.) I've had my music dismissed as unintelligent strutting noise by one group and unintelligent accessible pablum by the other. I'm bitter about both, but like a good, broke, 90's kid, I deal with the sociological dissonance through artistic public suffering, self medication, and sarcasm.


I don't know of a metal song, death metal or otherwise, that uses Schoenberg's 12-tone technique, though, if someone has something tells me it wouldn't be here, because it sounds like the sort of thing in mathy/djenty/proggy somethingcore. I agree though, that I'd certainly be interested in hearing one. And knowing me, I'm probably going to try to write one . . .

Let's put it this way, let's say there is a, not genre, but type of metal, Metal X that in a scale of increasing extremity/dissonance was Metal X --> thrash metal --> death/black metal. To me Metal X would be a lot of doom/generic "heavy metal"/NWOBH etc. Metal X in riffs and solos tends to go between minor pentatonic and full natural minor*, and tend to use few chromatic tones, and when they do, tend to do so in a similar manner to blues and to a general use of "blue notes." Thrash tends to use the pentatonic less, and to use a lot more Phrygian, and to add more general use chromatic notes. (and some Locrian) They still tend to use a lot of them as blue notes/approach notes. Death metal (and black metal, but in a different way) tends to put more chromatic notes in, and tends to use them much more as standard notes in the riff or solo. They also tend, when using powerchords to use both the root and the fifth chromatic to another chord, rather than getting the chromatic from replacing the diminished fifth in the dimII with the perfect fifth, and in fact *avoid* replacing the diminished fifth, putting the chromatics in elsewhere. (I ilke the trick of actually getting it from the *augmented* 5th, but I can't think of a specific example right now.). The chromatic notes are used freely, but still not "equally." Beyond that in terms of chromaticism, (and Locrian) it gets to stuff not archive-eligible.

So yeah, less Schoenberg, but more Schnittke. (Schnittke's "fuck you I'm putting a harpsicord solo in the middle of this shrieking dissonance" attitude isn't so much death metal as it is The Melvins, or, from a different perspective, interestingly, black metal.)

* I'm folding the harmonic and melodic minor in with natural minor, though that's really more of a concern with power metal/prog.
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thewrll
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:33 am
Posts: 713
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2023 11:27 pm 
 

lord_ghengis wrote:
Honestly don't know the decorum standards these days, I just wanted to take a pot shot because I thought it was funny, so if it's moddable that's on me haha.



No this person just seems to want to be a contrarian all the time.

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Lee Harrison
Metalhead

Joined: Mon May 30, 2022 6:28 am
Posts: 1458
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2023 4:05 am 
 

BastardHead wrote:
Bro nobody is trolling, they're calling you a dickhead because people have been giving detailed, thorough, well thought out explanations of the myriad of elements that help define and unify various death metal bands and you just keep responding with "no it's all about the vocals", and then when people give numerous examples of death metal bands with clean vocals or no vocals at all, and examples of bands with death growls but don't strictly play death metal, you respond with "those things that prove me wrong actually prove me right".

The only guy without arguments here is the one who keeps saying "nuh uh".

No I have said another thing

Thank you

what defines death metal the most is growl and it's my opinion,you should learn manners and the meaning of the irony(exception that prove the truth is clearly that)

And I don’t think it’s the problem is that you can hear Burzum but not a specific Finnish group.
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Bronze Age
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:55 pm
Posts: 727
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2023 4:45 pm 
 

Robotiq and MutantClanfear, you guys made a point I had not ever considered. As stubborn and argumentative as I can be I am just going to have to realize it is not the 90's anymore. But still, when someone says death metal, I instantly think growls.

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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 5164
Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2023 6:16 pm 
 

KaiKasparek wrote:
Ace_Rimmer wrote:
Kreator was put into the death metal category back in the day for sure, when it was still in its formulaic stages.



I do believe you mean embryonic.

But yes Pleasure To Kill is 100% a death metal album. I'll go even further and say it's a missing link between Seven Churches and Scream Bloody Gore. I would nominate Dark Angel Darkness Descends for that as well.


I'm a big death metal fan, but I don't think it's fair to just steal these albums from thrash metal just because they are aggresive, fast and violent. The riffing on Pleasure to Kill and Darkness Descends is still very much thrash metal, while Scream Bloody Gore and stuff like Altars of Madness were leaning more heavily on the death metal side of things.

Still, it's obvious that PtK and DD were important in the development of death metal. But I prefer to put them on the thrash metal side of the fence.

Ragemanistan wrote:
How old are you?


And bro, your age doesn't matter. The fact that you were around when the genre was born doesn't give you all encompasing knowledge of the genre over someone who was born in the 90's. It's crazy funny and ironic that people acting with such immaturity are the older guys here. Use rational arguments. Stuff that's rooted in facts, in reality, not into "I was listening to this stuff while you were still in diapers" rhetoric. It's bullshit and it convinces nobody but you and other old grumpy guys.

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thewrll
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:33 am
Posts: 713
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2023 7:09 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
KaiKasparek wrote:
Ace_Rimmer wrote:
Kreator was put into the death metal category back in the day for sure, when it was still in its formulaic stages.



I do believe you mean embryonic.

But yes Pleasure To Kill is 100% a death metal album. I'll go even further and say it's a missing link between Seven Churches and Scream Bloody Gore. I would nominate Dark Angel Darkness Descends for that as well.


I'm a big death metal fan, but I don't think it's fair to just steal these albums from thrash metal just because they are aggresive, fast and violent. The riffing on Pleasure to Kill and Darkness Descends is still very much thrash metal, while Scream Bloody Gore and stuff like Altars of Madness were leaning more heavily on the death metal side of things.

Still, it's obvious that PtK and DD were important in the development of death metal. But I prefer to put them on the thrash metal side of the fence.

Ragemanistan wrote:
How old are you?


And bro, your age doesn't matter. The fact that you were around when the genre was born doesn't give you all encompasing knowledge of the genre over someone who was born in the 90's. It's crazy funny and ironic that people acting with such immaturity are the older guys here. Use rational arguments. Stuff that's rooted in facts, in reality, not into "I was listening to this stuff while you were still in diapers" rhetoric. It's bullshit and it convinces nobody but you and other old grumpy guys.



It's the old man yells at cloud syndrome.

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LilTito
Metalhead

Joined: Thu May 13, 2021 3:10 pm
Posts: 694
Location: Croatia
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2023 8:14 pm 
 

pentalarc22 wrote:
Multiple of the following aspects of the music in and of itself or in comparison to other genres. All of it has some wiggle room, but not infinite, see below. You can also put "relatively" just about any place it currently isn't.

Low pitched harsh vocals, generally with a relatively "open" sound, where the singer has their throat more relaxed, often "overbreathed" using the air more rapidly than normal for that particular pitch and volume. Vowel sounds, though often reduced are emphasized, and consonant sounds de-emphasized. (As opposed to black metal vocals, which, in addition to being higher pitched, the throat is generally held tighter, the air "underbreathed" giving a "strangled" type sound, and consonant sounds more preserved.)

Audible bass. The bass is often given a more prominent role as well, and will often have its own riffs or take a temporarily melodic function. Bass tone will often have "scooped mids" but will nearly always have a bass response/low pass equal or greater than the high pass. Bass will have a tone equally "dirty" to the guitars, instead of the clearer tone common in thrash.

Tone and Distortion. Distortion generally has a thicker sound, with a lower boost, what I call a "rat" distortion after the Rat pedal. Distortion level is high, but clipping and blend are both less . . . severe . . .than in black metal. While classic-style fuzz is not often used, it gets close to that level.

Chromatism (did I actually spell that right on the first try?) and scales. Death metal commonly has a significantly high degree of chromaticism than other forms of metal, at least other forms accepted here. (Nu-metal, and related 'core genres often have an even higher level of chromaticism. (Hmm, does that mean Arnold Schoenberg is trendy and accessible? Can I get an Alfred Schnittke t-shirt at Hot Topic? I spelled Schnittke for that wisecrack.) Additionally, thrash tends to reduce it's chromaticism when working with the Phrygian mode, as opposed to natural minor, while death metal tends to keep the same amount of chromaticism. Death metal is more likely to dip into the Locrian (black metal does as well). Dorian, while common in some forms of metal is much rarer in death metal. Overall, the dissonance and chromaticism in death metal are harsher than in most other forms of metal. (Black metal is either tied or a close send depending on subgenre)

Solos: First of all a note, I am not saying that death metal solos are "bad" in any way. I am going to say that death metal tends to shy away from virtuoso/cadenza solos. I actually prefer, simpler, noisier, "bluesier" solos in many ways. I think that they can serve the song better while virtuoso solos often (IMHO) distract from the emotional intensity of a song. (Unless you're Savatage, and I will be slightly bitter about that eternally.) Death metal tends to shy away from virtuoso solos, and while not discarding them entirely tend towards more sound-based solos. Solos in other subgenres, including thrash, tend to reduce dissonance in the solos, death metal (and some other genres) do not. Also thrash and other genres of metal towards that end will more often use the minor pentatonic of the scale they are in, including in Phyrgian. Death metal is more likely to continuing using the same scale (which they are generally less welded to anyway) and to remain in Phyrgian if the rest of the song is.

I'll think of more as soon as I post this.

I agree with everything you wrote here, but audible bass in death metal? come on lol

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Ragemanistan
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:20 pm
Posts: 103
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2023 11:34 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
KaiKasparek wrote:
Ace_Rimmer wrote:
Kreator was put into the death metal category back in the day for sure, when it was still in its formulaic stages.



I do believe you mean embryonic.

But yes Pleasure To Kill is 100% a death metal album. I'll go even further and say it's a missing link between Seven Churches and Scream Bloody Gore. I would nominate Dark Angel Darkness Descends for that as well.


I'm a big death metal fan, but I don't think it's fair to just steal these albums from thrash metal just because they are aggresive, fast and violent. The riffing on Pleasure to Kill and Darkness Descends is still very much thrash metal, while Scream Bloody Gore and stuff like Altars of Madness were leaning more heavily on the death metal side of things.

Still, it's obvious that PtK and DD were important in the development of death metal. But I prefer to put them on the thrash metal side of the fence.

Ragemanistan wrote:
How old are you?


And bro, your age doesn't matter. The fact that you were around when the genre was born doesn't give you all encompasing knowledge of the genre over someone who was born in the 90's. It's crazy funny and ironic that people acting with such immaturity are the older guys here. Use rational arguments. Stuff that's rooted in facts, in reality, not into "I was listening to this stuff while you were still in diapers" rhetoric. It's bullshit and it convinces nobody but you and other old grumpy guys.

Fucking hilarious.

I present facts and reality . . . and get told that someone's revisionist history is what I need to go by instead.
Here's pretty much my experience learning and living through the scene as I grew from being a Beatles fan from birth into a Hard Rock fan('79), then a Heavy Metal fan('82 Venom was the first band to make me go "Why would anybody want to listen to that?"), a Thrash Metal fan('84) and then finally a Death Metal fan('87).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_metal
Feel free to submit your corrections.

And it doesn't convince old grumpy guys. It's correct and they agree.

Is today's Death Metal more based on the 90s Swedish Death Metal? By far and away . . . but that was just part of the evolution. Just because the stuff that you listen to has emulated that same sound for decades doesn't mean that's when Death Metal officially began.




The Heavy Metal that I know is early 80s . . . I know plenty of people that consider Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, Blue Oyster Cult, Kiss, Ten Years After, Budgie, Aerosmith, Blue Cheer, MC5 and Nazareth as Heavy Metal. I have always considered all of them as Hard Rock bands, but I never told the people that actually lived through the experience that they're wrong and that they were never Metalheads, they're just merely Rockers. No matter how dated the early days of the movement sounds to me, the Heavy Metal that I know and love was just a part of it's evolution, not the "be all, end all".

When this first hit, I was hoping that it was about America's answer to popularity of The New Wave Of British Heavy Metal(Metal Blade and Megaforce bands along with early 80s LA Metal), but you can't have a New Wave without an Original Wave and that's what they were discussing.

When I realized what they were talking about, I clicked away and picked something else to listen to in the background. I didn't tell anyone in the comments that "my Metalhead friends and I have all agreed that this is just Hard Rock and you should quit pretending that it's Metal because it makes you look foolish". And why didn't I do that? Because that's a douchebag move. Obviously, you and your generation do not feel the same way.

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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2023 2:28 am 
 

Ragemanistan wrote:
Obviously, you and your generation do not feel the same way.


I just told you that your "I'm older then you, trust me" bullshit was exactly that: bullshit.

If you want to argue that Kreator is death metal based on a perspective backed up by stuff that's actually rooted in rational arguments, then be my guest. I never argued you couldn't. But asking people their age and basing your entire arguments on the fact that you were around when death metal was born is just plain bullshit.

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Ragemanistan
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:20 pm
Posts: 103
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2023 3:48 am 
 

And your revisionist history isn't bullshit?

Getting butthurt and upset about asking someone's age kind of proves my point. I'm defending accuracy, you're defending being a douchebag.

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Lee Harrison
Metalhead

Joined: Mon May 30, 2022 6:28 am
Posts: 1458
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2023 4:03 am 
 

Bah today death metal is based 90% on Incantation ,Immolation,Demilich and Finland scene of 90…

Not only today but Last twenty years.

I think Pleasure To Kill is more suicidal black metal than Death Metal.

(Joking aside because my iPad can’t add emoticon I think you should discuss with a calmer mind)

It’s only Death Metal
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Ragemanistan
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:20 pm
Posts: 103
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2023 4:21 am 
 

Lee Harrison wrote:
Bah today death metal is based 90% on Incantation ,Immolation,Demilich and Finland scene of 90…

Not only today but Last twenty years.

I've stated that but that got pushed aside.

That's what Death Metal evolved into and it's been copied a thousand times over. When was the last truly "groundbreaking" Death Metal album? I haven't heard a lot of originality in those last twenty years.

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Lee Harrison
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2023 6:09 am 
 

originality is also having obvious influences but knowing how to go beyond having one's own vision.

I think the first Dead Congregation album is great,like the only full by Disma,the albums made by Funebrarum.

Portal and Ulcerate while clearly drawing inspiration from the classics Gorguts, Immolation, Demilich put a lot of their vision and originality into it,same as Tomb Mold or Ulthar.

Uk scene is fantastic(Abyssal,Cruciamentum,Grave Miasma)

I too had prejudices against these groups but I completely changed my mind.

Ps give a try to Malthusian
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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2023 12:40 pm 
 

Ragemanistan wrote:
And your revisionist history isn't bullshit?

Getting butthurt and upset about asking someone's age kind of proves my point. I'm defending accuracy, you're defending being a douchebag.


What revisionist history? What in the name of fuck are you talking about? Prior to telling you to stop using your age as an argument, I said nothing to you. Damn, you truly are getting old...

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Kalimata
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:29 am
Posts: 526
Location: France
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2023 3:00 pm 
 

Some here are obsessed with raising that revisionism stuff as if it was something to end all discussions. But historical revisionism in genre classification is not bad at all. It allows to make things cohesive with the benefice of hindsight. Because we all know things aren't that fixed at the moment when a genre or a genre name emerges.

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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2023 3:47 pm 
 

Kalimata wrote:
Some here are obsessed with raising that revisionism stuff as if it was something to end all discussions. But historical revisionism in genre classification is not bad at all. It allows to make things cohesive with the benefice of hindsight. Because we all know things aren't that fixed at the moment when a genre or a genre name emerges.


It's especially intense when these guys show up and bitch because we're calling Mercyful Fate a heavy metal band and not black metal.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2023 3:50 pm 
 

It should be obvious that genres evolve and the early 80s was just a lot of primordial ooze and not reflective of what names got applied to sounds later. That said I do get some condescension at times like "all that old stuff is just old man dad music, not like our edgy pure stuff that we think is cooler."
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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

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Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2023 3:58 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
It should be obvious that genres evolve and the early 80s was just a lot of primordial ooze and not reflective of what names got applied to sounds later. That said I do get some condescension at times like "all that old stuff is just old man dad music, not like our edgy pure stuff that we think is cooler."


I didn't really notice any of that in this thread. Like, are people really arguing that death metal is better then thrash because thrash would be "old man dad music"?

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2023 4:25 pm 
 

I didn't get that idea from this particular thread but occasionally I do from other ones about this subject... may just be a weird hunch and have no basis in reality, who knows.
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ThStealthK
Indiana Jones

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Location: Dominican Republic
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2023 4:44 pm 
 

2023 is getting weirder, I wouldn't be surprised if in the next few months a UFO crashes in California or a man goes viral and also becomes phenomenon for dodging bullets with his head.
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Gravetemplar
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2023 5:57 pm 
 

Ragemanistan wrote:
Lee Harrison wrote:
Bah today death metal is based 90% on Incantation ,Immolation,Demilich and Finland scene of 90…

Not only today but Last twenty years.

I've stated that but that got pushed aside.

That's what Death Metal evolved into and it's been copied a thousand times over. When was the last truly "groundbreaking" Death Metal album? I haven't heard a lot of originality in those last twenty years.

You have not been searching hard enough.



Last edited by Gravetemplar on Tue Jul 18, 2023 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2023 6:35 pm 
 

There's a lot of original stuff that came out in death metal over the last 20 years. The whole brutal tech death metal scene with Nile, Hour of Penance, Origin, Fleshgod Apocalypse, Decapitated and the likes.

And what about modern black/death stuff like Teitanblood, Archgoat, Grave Miasma, Tetragrammacide? These bands also standout as quite original to me.

And the avant-garde/dissodeath scene with Ulcerate, Ad Nauseam, Pyrrhon, Imperial Triumphant? Not original?

I seriously can't believe that anyone who gave a fair chance to these band could genuinely believe that they are not original and distinct from what was going on in death metal prior to that. Sweeping statements about how an entire scene has not produced anything good, or anything original, or anything anything, are generally rooted much more in ignorance and cognitive biases then actual knowledge of the music.

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Lee Harrison
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Location: Italy
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2023 7:26 pm 
 

Malthusian Across Deaths is a masterpiece
Too the split with Suffering Hour

Repetita iuvant
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joppek
Veteran

Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:36 am
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Location: Suomi Finland Perkele
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2023 3:39 am 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Sweeping statements about how an entire scene has not produced anything good, or anything original, or anything anything, are generally rooted much more in ignorance and cognitive biases then actual knowledge of the music.


cognitive biases is spot on - the naming of things has a huge influence on how we think of them, and we haven't named a new metal genre* in well over 30 years. portal is still called death metal, but it's a lot further removed from autopsy, than autopsy is from 80's metallica, and those two are called different things (death vs thrash). why we haven't has a lot more to do with the evolving culture we find ourselves in, marketing strategies of labels, etc. rather than a lack of evolution of music

not counting sub-sub-things here
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kovner1972
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2023 6:20 am 
 

Portal are not death meta, they are shit metal. A new style of metal is born? probably; shit metal.

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kovner1972
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2022 3:33 pm
Posts: 435
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2023 6:27 am 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
Ragemanistan wrote:
Lee Harrison wrote:
Bah today death metal is based 90% on Incantation ,Immolation,Demilich and Finland scene of 90…

Not only today but Last twenty years.

I've stated that but that got pushed aside.

That's what Death Metal evolved into and it's been copied a thousand times over. When was the last truly "groundbreaking" Death Metal album? I haven't heard a lot of originality in those last twenty years.

You have not been searching hard enough.



This is groundbreaking dude, seriously?

How about this one:


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chuggingpus
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:56 am
Posts: 125
Location: Vatican City
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2023 11:16 am 
 

kovner1972 wrote:
Portal are not death meta, they are shit metal. A new style of metal is born? probably; shit metal.


this band seemed to get a lot of praise. when I delved into their albums it sounded like semi improvised, riffless garbage. very nicely designed album covers and mysterious stage costumes but very little quality musically.

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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 5164
Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2023 1:08 pm 
 

joppek wrote:
HeavenDuff wrote:
Sweeping statements about how an entire scene has not produced anything good, or anything original, or anything anything, are generally rooted much more in ignorance and cognitive biases then actual knowledge of the music.


cognitive biases is spot on - the naming of things has a huge influence on how we think of them, and we haven't named a new metal genre* in well over 30 years. portal is still called death metal, but it's a lot further removed from autopsy, than autopsy is from 80's metallica, and those two are called different things (death vs thrash). why we haven't has a lot more to do with the evolving culture we find ourselves in, marketing strategies of labels, etc. rather than a lack of evolution of music

not counting sub-sub-things here


This. All of this is spot on. I think you're right when saying that the culture changed and that's why we don't go about creating new subgenres names all that much anymore. Sometimes, especially when listening to modern dissonant death metal or dissonant black metal, I wonder if they even fit within these genres anymore. I'm thinking stuff like Ad Nauseam, Ulcerate, Imperial Triumphant, Blut Aus Nord. Like yes, I definitely understand how they evolved from these two subgenres, but some of the song structures are just so damn different from what is usually done in death or black metal, it gets me wondering if we shouldn't find new names for these. But then again, dissonant death/black makes sense, and we all have a pretty good idea of the sound that this describes.

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Kalimata
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:29 am
Posts: 526
Location: France
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2023 4:54 pm 
 

Quote:
Sometimes, especially when listening to modern dissonant death metal or dissonant black metal, I wonder if they even fit within these genres anymore. I'm thinking stuff like Ad Nauseam, Ulcerate, Imperial Triumphant, Blut Aus Nord.


I do agree with this, it could be a new genre because these bands have more in common than with both original genres. It sometimes impossible to identify if those dissonant riffs are more black or death.

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Kalimata
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:29 am
Posts: 526
Location: France
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2023 4:57 pm 
 

kovner1972 wrote:
Portal are not death meta, they are shit metal. A new style of metal is born? probably; shit metal.


You still didn't buy a life?

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Opus
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2002 11:06 am
Posts: 4278
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2023 5:36 pm 
 

chuggingpus wrote:
this band seemed to get a lot of praise. when I delved into their albums it sounded like semi improvised, riffless garbage. very nicely designed album covers and mysterious stage costumes but very little quality musically.

Never underestimate a nicely designed album cover.
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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 5164
Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2023 5:49 pm 
 

Opus wrote:
chuggingpus wrote:
this band seemed to get a lot of praise. when I delved into their albums it sounded like semi improvised, riffless garbage. very nicely designed album covers and mysterious stage costumes but very little quality musically.

Never underestimate a nicely designed album cover.


Sure, the 30+ people who wrote positive reviews for their albums are all dumbasses who were fooled by "nicely designed album" covers. That's actually all they talk about in their reviews too.

I don't know why people feel the urge to engage in such a disingenuous matter anything they don't personnally enjoy and/or understand.

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pentalarc22
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:28 pm
Posts: 63
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2023 6:15 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Opus wrote:
chuggingpus wrote:
this band seemed to get a lot of praise. when I delved into their albums it sounded like semi improvised, riffless garbage. very nicely designed album covers and mysterious stage costumes but very little quality musically.

Never underestimate a nicely designed album cover.


Sure, the 30+ people who wrote positive reviews for their albums are all dumbasses who were fooled by "nicely designed album" covers. That's actually all they talk about in their reviews too.

I don't know why people feel the urge to engage in such a disingenuous matter anything they don't personnally enjoy and/or understand.


Because to a lot of people anything that is new or different in any way sucks.

Anything new is called "trendy" "commercial" "poseur" "weak" and at the same time they wonder why nothing new is done. . .and blame it on the trendy/commercial/weak poseurs.

Art stagnates, and we all get a little bit older and a little bit more boring.

TL;DR: "Get off my metal lawn ya damn kids! I just had it polished!"
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Gravetemplar
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 4661
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2023 6:21 pm 
 

It's also worth noting none of Portal's covers are particularly great except for that one done by Bielak. What is he even talking about.

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kovner1972
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2022 3:33 pm
Posts: 435
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2023 7:05 pm 
 

Oh, the power of the hype.

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joppek
Veteran

Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:36 am
Posts: 2547
Location: Suomi Finland Perkele
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2023 3:35 am 
 

whether you think they're the worst band in the world, or the second coming of beethoven is utterly irrelevant - the point was that they're labeled as death metal on this site, but you can probably hear they don't really have tons in common with suffocation or cannibal corpse. substitute deathspell omega and darkthrone if that feels more comfortable.

for the 80's we have thrash metal, speed metal, power metal, etc. for sounds that can be pretty close to each other at the end of the day - early black and death metal too, but for the last 30+ years, tons of stuff has been stuffed inside the old labels, which have stretched to accommodate all kinds of things. this creates the illusion of musical stagnation: any new stuff is still called the same as the old stuff, which isn't the case for "the good old days" (of course a lot of that labeling is done retrospectively, which might still happen for stuff like portal and dso, but i doubt it)
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Kalimata
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:29 am
Posts: 526
Location: France
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2023 7:33 am 
 

kovner1972 wrote:
Oh, the power of the hype.


Are there moments when your brain is able to form elaborate opinions?

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