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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 5164
Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2023 12:32 pm 
 

Runko wrote:
Do you like them? Then they're good to you, if not then they're not. There's no objectivity in art, that's what makes it art.


Alright. So we should just stop talking about music then. Since everything is subjective and everything goes and nothing matters.

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morbert
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:36 am
Posts: 1277
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2023 1:07 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Runko wrote:
Do you like them? Then they're good to you, if not then they're not. There's no objectivity in art, that's what makes it art.

Alright. So we should just stop talking about music then. Since everything is subjective and everything goes and nothing matters.


In order to support Runko:
Talking about music goes further than exchanging supposedly objective aspects.
I even dare say in any conversation about music many 'objective' aspects about music are often less interesting to me than exchanging personal experiences.
Someone telling me, enthusiastically, how much he/she enjoys something often brings me more happiness in a conversation than discussing the productional details of the left cymbal on a remix
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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 5164
Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2023 1:36 pm 
 

OP was clearly not asking us if Mayhem is objectively good, but rather why we like or dislike them. People coming in threads to tell us that "quality is subjective", like Runko did, are missing the point.

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morbert
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:36 am
Posts: 1277
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2023 2:32 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
OP was clearly not asking us if Mayhem is objectively good, but rather why we like or dislike them. People coming in threads to tell us that "quality is subjective", like Runko did, are missing the point.


He literally wrote "Is Mayhem a good band?... The question is more about the quality of the music"
I didn't read "why do you like or dislike them".

Doesn't really matter. I don't think there is one be-all-end-all to that question. Some like them or just one or two releases, others hate them.
I can't listen to them and think 'objectively this is good'. Influential? yes.
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Runko
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:38 pm
Posts: 672
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2023 4:16 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
OP was clearly not asking us if Mayhem is objectively good, but rather why we like or dislike them. People coming in threads to tell us that "quality is subjective", like Runko did, are missing the point.


You can discuss music in objective terms of "this song is in B major" or "this song is 130 bpm" but the quality therein is 100% subjective. This is a fact and not up for discussion.

Let's say I think something is good and you don't. Who is correct and by what metric?

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Runko
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:38 pm
Posts: 672
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2023 4:26 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Runko wrote:
Do you like them? Then they're good to you, if not then they're not. There's no objectivity in art, that's what makes it art.


Alright. So we should just stop talking about music then. Since everything is subjective and everything goes and nothing matters.


No, we can (and should) still talk about why we think something is good or bad. That very much matters, it's the very nature of the discussion itself. The notion that we can only talk about art in objective terms is inherently folly and counter-productive.

What's the point of even discussing something objective? How objective is it really if the objective-ness itself is up for debate? It would be as futile as trying to have a conversation with a flat earther. If that's something you find fruitful then by all means go ahead, but I can think of far better ways to spend my time.

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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 5164
Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2023 5:56 pm 
 

morbert wrote:
HeavenDuff wrote:
OP was clearly not asking us if Mayhem is objectively good, but rather why we like or dislike them. People coming in threads to tell us that "quality is subjective", like Runko did, are missing the point.


He literally wrote "Is Mayhem a good band?... The question is more about the quality of the music"
I didn't read "why do you like or dislike them".


That's kind of implied though... In the OP he said he only liked Deathcrush and other early stuff before asking others if Mayhem was a good band. That pretty much seems like someone who is inviting others to share their opinions and perspective on the subject. It seems very obvious to me that he didn't mean "Is Mayhem objectively good?"

Runko wrote:
HeavenDuff wrote:
OP was clearly not asking us if Mayhem is objectively good, but rather why we like or dislike them. People coming in threads to tell us that "quality is subjective", like Runko did, are missing the point.


You can discuss music in objective terms of "this song is in B major" or "this song is 130 bpm" but the quality therein is 100% subjective. This is a fact and not up for discussion.

Let's say I think something is good and you don't. Who is correct and by what metric?


You're missing the point. I was just saying that OP is very clearly just asking for people's opinions on Mayhem and NOT asking if they are objectively good. That's just a shortcut that people use when talking. If someone asks you "Is this band good?", they are 99,9% of the time asking you if you personnally like them, and not if the band is good by some kind of objective metric.

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Runko
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:38 pm
Posts: 672
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2023 6:05 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
You're missing the point. I was just saying that OP is very clearly just asking for people's opinions on Mayhem and NOT asking if they are objectively good. That's just a shortcut that people use when talking. If someone asks you "Is this band good?", they are 99,9% of the time asking you if you personnally like them, and not if the band is good by some kind of objective metric.


If anything, it seems like you and I are in complete agreement.

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cultofkraken
Veteran

Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:18 am
Posts: 3018
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2023 7:47 pm 
 

Yes.

More to the point Mayhem have pioneered the second wave of black metal and then went ahead and expanded… they took chances like Grand Declaration of War and Ordo Ab Chao. I personally loved Daemon myself even though I can concede it was more stylistically regressive…. But it’s dark asf and what I wanted to hear. De Mysteris I don’t even have to comment on, an obvious classic.

Are they my personal favourite black metal band? No. Is DMDS one of my top BM albums of all time? Yes.
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Aldrahn333
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:28 pm
Posts: 479
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2023 8:04 pm 
 

Daemon is one of my favorite albums of the decade, let alone THE CLASSIC one. Is it really necessary to ask if they are a good band?!

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werewolfgraveyard
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2022 5:10 am
Posts: 203
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2023 9:58 pm 
 

Runko wrote:
Do you like them? Then they're good to you, if not then they're not. There's no objectivity in art, that's what makes it art.


I think the point of the thread went over your head. I'm aware of the difference between subjectivity and objectivity. This is for people to share their subjective views.

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jojoisnt
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2022 5:19 am
Posts: 3
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2023 11:59 pm 
 

the older lineups? some of the best classic bm in existance, theres a reason why so many are inspired by it
their later lineups? not even the same band to me, boring and just seems to be sucking off the fame of their peak

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dike
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2023 4:15 pm
Posts: 155
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2023 4:19 am 
 

cultofkraken wrote:
I personally loved Daemon myself even though I can concede it was more stylistically regressive…. But it’s dark asf and what I wanted to hear.


And at the point in their career when they released Daemon it also felt fresh. They'd only really done one album in that style and that album came out in 1994. I just admire bands who dare to try new and different things and Mayhems has kept doing that from the very beginning until now. And that is admirable.

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mike_87
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:08 am
Posts: 336
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2023 6:38 am 
 

dike wrote:
werewolfgraveyard wrote:
General discussion question, personally I think I only like their Deathcrush EP and some of their live stuff before the release of their debut full-length.

The question is more about the quality of the music and not about the history or ethics of the band and its members/former members.


They might be my favourite black metal band of the original 90's wave. There seems to be three camps with the band. Those who just don't like them. Those who like Deathcrush and De Mysteriis and those who appreciate more than that. For my money I like everything they've done except Deathcrush and Esoteric Warfare. The first is just not my thing - I think it's bad. As for the latter I find it boring. Everything else is good to excellent. I've learned to love De Mysterris (used to have a hard time with the vocals). Wolfs Lair Abyss was my introduction to the band - love it! Grand Deceleration is someting totally different but awesome as well. Chimera builds on the previous one but is more streamlined - very good. Ordo ad Chao goes in the opposite direction with the muffeled sound and the weird songs - it's excellent. And then Daemon which is a return to the old sound which I think they did well.

They keep doing stuff that feels fresh which is a great thing for a band. And they usually succeed as well. I hope they keep experimenting on the next release so they don't get stuck and do another album with the old school sound. You never know what you're gonna get with a Mayhem release.


Yeah Esoteric Warfare seems to get alot of praise and I don't see why, can anyone clear that up for me?

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Gravetemplar
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 4661
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2023 7:11 am 
 

mike_87 wrote:
dike wrote:
werewolfgraveyard wrote:
General discussion question, personally I think I only like their Deathcrush EP and some of their live stuff before the release of their debut full-length.

The question is more about the quality of the music and not about the history or ethics of the band and its members/former members.


They might be my favourite black metal band of the original 90's wave. There seems to be three camps with the band. Those who just don't like them. Those who like Deathcrush and De Mysteriis and those who appreciate more than that. For my money I like everything they've done except Deathcrush and Esoteric Warfare. The first is just not my thing - I think it's bad. As for the latter I find it boring. Everything else is good to excellent. I've learned to love De Mysterris (used to have a hard time with the vocals). Wolfs Lair Abyss was my introduction to the band - love it! Grand Deceleration is someting totally different but awesome as well. Chimera builds on the previous one but is more streamlined - very good. Ordo ad Chao goes in the opposite direction with the muffeled sound and the weird songs - it's excellent. And then Daemon which is a return to the old sound which I think they did well.

They keep doing stuff that feels fresh which is a great thing for a band. And they usually succeed as well. I hope they keep experimenting on the next release so they don't get stuck and do another album with the old school sound. You never know what you're gonna get with a Mayhem release.


Yeah Esoteric Warfare seems to get alot of praise and I don't see why, can anyone clear that up for me?

I love Attila and he does a great work as usual. It may not be as good as Ordo ad chao (which suffered from a terrible production) and it's obviously not as good as De mysteriis but I still think it's a cool "avantgardish" black metal album with a cool concept behind it. It deals with the esotericism and mystique of the atomic bomb, WW2, the cold war, conspiracies, alien intervention, etc. In the song Trinity you can hear Attila mixing Oppenheimer quotes and a chant ritual that mixes elements from the Manhattan Project, the Soviet nuclear program, Crowley and esoteric Nazism. Straight out of Hellboy and the artwork is cool too. I don't know, it's not a perfect album but it's pretty unique. As I said, strong Mike Mignola vibes, even though it's probably not intentional.

Image

(that's Rasputin by the way)

Mayhem are the only early 90s black metal band that still releases interesting music if you ask me. Even at their lowest they are at least perplexing and unique.

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Raven_Augustus
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:30 pm
Posts: 312
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2023 9:38 am 
 

Mayhem used to be one of my favourite bands, but I must admit that my interest has gone down the last few years. What I admire about them is that they always pushed boundaries. Even on the early Deathcrush they used odd time-signatures, experimental instrumental tracks, non-conventional song structures and so on.

The only album that is pretty unoriginal in terms of style is Daemon, and I still like that album, but they were quoting themselves quite a bit, especially from De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas.

I think the Maniac era is very good too. I prefer the re-master of Grand Declaration of War, and Chimera is very overlooked, the riffs on that album is some of Blasphemer's best.

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Defenestrated
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:50 pm
Posts: 302
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2023 10:59 am 
 

Agreed re. Chimera.

Come to think of it...I wouldn't be surprised if people's album rankings for this band were just all over the place, apart from the majority placing De Mysteriis at the top. Like, simply based on the personal enjoyment factor - as in, how much I imagine I'd enjoy them today, rather than how much I've enjoyed them cumulatively over the years - mine would be:

1. De Mysteriis
2. Chimera
3. Wolf's Lair/Ordo Ad Chao (tie)
4. Grand Declaration
5. Deathcrush
6. Esoteric Warfare/Daemon (tie)

On another note: There was some talk earlier in the thread about the meaning of "objective value" in music and whatnot. To chime in on that, I don't think the statements "I enjoy X" and "I think X is objectively good" have the same meaning. That's not to say the latter is well-defined - I think it usually involves some combination or other (or a somewhat garbled mixture) of:

-"People who enjoy the genre to which X belongs commonly enjoy X."
-"X is original/influential; it's easy to imagine X's genre having developed in a much different way (if at all) if not for the influence of X, and consequently being enjoyed less and respected less."
-"To compose and/or play X's music requires a lot of music-theoretical insight, training, and/or technical skill."

You can say any one or all of those things while also saying, "I don't enjoy X," even as a fan of X's genre. Likewise, you can enjoy X while also believing that none of those statements applies - hence people's guilty pleasures and other idiosyncrasies.

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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 5164
Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2023 12:18 pm 
 

Reading the last few posts, I might have to revisith Ghul/Teloch releases, just to refresh my memory and see if there might be something interesting in there. To me, that era always felt like Blasphemer era Mayhem Lite, but hey, maybe they aren't. I'll have to hear for myself.

Runko wrote:
HeavenDuff wrote:
You're missing the point. I was just saying that OP is very clearly just asking for people's opinions on Mayhem and NOT asking if they are objectively good. That's just a shortcut that people use when talking. If someone asks you "Is this band good?", they are 99,9% of the time asking you if you personnally like them, and not if the band is good by some kind of objective metric.


If anything, it seems like you and I are in complete agreement.


Mostly yes. So I guess we can just leave it at that.

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Gravetemplar
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 4661
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2023 1:29 pm 
 

My personal ranking varies too often, depends a lot on the mood. Ordo ad Chao has their best songs but the production sucks. Esoteric Warfare isn't as good or memorable as Ordo ad Chao but the production is slightly better. Daemon sounds great but the song-writing isn't as adventurous.

1. De Mysteriis dom Sathanas
2. Ordo ad Chao/Esoteric Warfare/Daemon (tie)
3. Chimera
4. Deathcrush
5. Grand Declaration

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dike
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2023 4:15 pm
Posts: 155
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2023 2:50 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:

I love Attila and he does a great work as usual. It may not be as good as Ordo ad chao (which suffered from a terrible production) and it's obviously not as good as De mysteriis but I still think it's a cool "avantgardish" black metal album with a cool concept behind it. It deals with the esotericism and mystique of the atomic bomb, WW2, the cold war, conspiracies, alien intervention, etc. In the song Trinity you can hear Attila mixing Oppenheimer quotes and a chant ritual that mixes elements from the Manhattan Project, the Soviet nuclear program, Crowley and esoteric Nazism. Straight out of Hellboy and the artwork is cool too. I don't know, it's not a perfect album but it's pretty unique. As I said, strong Mike Mignola vibes, even though it's probably not intentional.


I always like the thought of that album more than the albums itself. I actually return to it with regular intervals of a couple of years just because I think I might have missed something. But as of today I haven't been able to really get into it.

Defenestrated wrote:
Come to think of it...I wouldn't be surprised if people's album rankings for this band were just all over the place, apart from the majority placing De Mysteriis at the top. Like, simply based on the personal enjoyment factor - as in, how much I imagine I'd enjoy them today, rather than how much I've enjoyed them cumulatively over the years - mine would be:

1. De Mysteriis
2. Chimera
3. Wolf's Lair/Ordo Ad Chao (tie)
4. Grand Declaration
5. Deathcrush
6. Esoteric Warfare/Daemon (tie)


Yeah, and this is what I love about the band. It's so diverse and naturally people will like very different albums from the band. Heck, I can't even decide on what order I would rank the albums. Maybe it's easier if a did a tier system:

Tier 1:

Wolfs Lair Abyss, De Mysteriis and Ordo ad Chao.

Tier 2:

Grand Declaration of War (only because I think it's slightly to long).

Tier 3:

Daemon and Chimera.

Tier 4:

Esoteric Warfare

Tier 5:

Deathcrush

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Benedict Donald
Veteran

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:36 am
Posts: 3085
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2023 3:47 pm 
 

This thread prompted me to revisit 'Daemon' and 'Atavistic Black Commando'. Geez, both kick all kinds of azz.

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Gemini 7 Rising
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:08 am
Posts: 729
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2023 4:16 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
mike_87 wrote:
Yeah Esoteric Warfare seems to get alot of praise and I don't see why, can anyone clear that up for me?

I love Attila and he does a great work as usual. It may not be as good as Ordo ad chao (which suffered from a terrible production) and it's obviously not as good as De mysteriis but I still think it's a cool "avantgardish" black metal album with a cool concept behind it. It deals with the esotericism and mystique of the atomic bomb, WW2, the cold war, conspiracies, alien intervention, etc. In the song Trinity you can hear Attila mixing Oppenheimer quotes and a chant ritual that mixes elements from the Manhattan Project, the Soviet nuclear program, Crowley and esoteric Nazism. Straight out of Hellboy and the artwork is cool too. I don't know, it's not a perfect album but it's pretty unique. As I said, strong Mike Mignola vibes, even though it's probably not intentional.

Image

(that's Rasputin by the way)

Mayhem are the only early 90s black metal band that still releases interesting music if you ask me. Even at their lowest they are at least perplexing and unique.


Yes, well articulated. That about sums it up for me too. It's just good, weird, disjointed Mayhem fun. Business as usual but moreso.
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