Alright. So we should just stop talking about music then. Since everything is subjective and everything goes and nothing matters.

In order to support Runko:
Talking about music goes further than exchanging supposedly objective aspects.
I even dare say in any conversation about music many 'objective' aspects about music are often less interesting to me than exchanging personal experiences.
Someone telling me, enthusiastically, how much he/she enjoys something often brings me more happiness in a conversation than discussing the productional details of the left cymbal on a remix

OP was clearly not asking us if Mayhem is objectively good, but rather why we like or dislike them. People coming in threads to tell us that "quality is subjective", like Runko did, are missing the point.

He literally wrote "Is Mayhem a good band?... The question is more about the quality of the music"
I didn't read "why do you like or dislike them".

Doesn't really matter. I don't think there is one be-all-end-all to that question. Some like them or just one or two releases, others hate them.
I can't listen to them and think 'objectively this is good'. Influential? yes.

You can discuss music in objective terms of "this song is in B major" or "this song is 130 bpm" but the quality therein is 100% subjective. This is a fact and not up for discussion.

Let's say I think something is good and you don't. Who is correct and by what metric?

No, we can (and should) still talk about why we think something is good or bad. That very much matters, it's the very nature of the discussion itself. The notion that we can only talk about art in objective terms is inherently folly and counter-productive.

What's the point of even discussing something objective? How objective is it really if the objective-ness itself is up for debate? It would be as futile as trying to have a conversation with a flat earther. If that's something you find fruitful then by all means go ahead, but I can think of far better ways to spend my time.

That's kind of implied though... In the OP he said he only liked Deathcrush and other early stuff before asking others if Mayhem was a good band. That pretty much seems like someone who is inviting others to share their opinions and perspective on the subject. It seems very obvious to me that he didn't mean "Is Mayhem objectively good?"



You're missing the point. I was just saying that OP is very clearly just asking for people's opinions on Mayhem and NOT asking if they are objectively good. That's just a shortcut that people use when talking. If someone asks you "Is this band good?", they are 99,9% of the time asking you if you personnally like them, and not if the band is good by some kind of objective metric.

If anything, it seems like you and I are in complete agreement.

Yes.

More to the point Mayhem have pioneered the second wave of black metal and then went ahead and expanded… they took chances like Grand Declaration of War and Ordo Ab Chao. I personally loved Daemon myself even though I can concede it was more stylistically regressive…. But it’s dark asf and what I wanted to hear. De Mysteris I don’t even have to comment on, an obvious classic.

Are they my personal favourite black metal band? No. Is DMDS one of my top BM albums of all time? Yes.

Daemon is one of my favorite albums of the decade, let alone THE CLASSIC one. Is it really necessary to ask if they are a good band?!

I think the point of the thread went over your head. I'm aware of the difference between subjectivity and objectivity. This is for people to share their subjective views.

the older lineups? some of the best classic bm in existance, theres a reason why so many are inspired by it
their later lineups? not even the same band to me, boring and just seems to be sucking off the fame of their peak

And at the point in their career when they released Daemon it also felt fresh. They'd only really done one album in that style and that album came out in 1994. I just admire bands who dare to try new and different things and Mayhems has kept doing that from the very beginning until now. And that is admirable.

Yeah Esoteric Warfare seems to get alot of praise and I don't see why, can anyone clear that up for me?

I love Attila and he does a great work as usual. It may not be as good as Ordo ad chao (which suffered from a terrible production) and it's obviously not as good as De mysteriis but I still think it's a cool "avantgardish" black metal album with a cool concept behind it. It deals with the esotericism and mystique of the atomic bomb, WW2, the cold war, conspiracies, alien intervention, etc. In the song Trinity you can hear Attila mixing Oppenheimer quotes and a chant ritual that mixes elements from the Manhattan Project, the Soviet nuclear program, Crowley and esoteric Nazism. Straight out of Hellboy and the artwork is cool too. I don't know, it's not a perfect album but it's pretty unique. As I said, strong Mike Mignola vibes, even though it's probably not intentional.



(that's Rasputin by the way)

Mayhem are the only early 90s black metal band that still releases interesting music if you ask me. Even at their lowest they are at least perplexing and unique.

Mayhem used to be one of my favourite bands, but I must admit that my interest has gone down the last few years. What I admire about them is that they always pushed boundaries. Even on the early Deathcrush they used odd time-signatures, experimental instrumental tracks, non-conventional song structures and so on.

The only album that is pretty unoriginal in terms of style is Daemon, and I still like that album, but they were quoting themselves quite a bit, especially from De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas.

I think the Maniac era is very good too. I prefer the re-master of Grand Declaration of War, and Chimera is very overlooked, the riffs on that album is some of Blasphemer's best.

Agreed re. Chimera.

Come to think of it...I wouldn't be surprised if people's album rankings for this band were just all over the place, apart from the majority placing De Mysteriis at the top. Like, simply based on the personal enjoyment factor - as in, how much I imagine I'd enjoy them today, rather than how much I've enjoyed them cumulatively over the years - mine would be:

1. De Mysteriis
2. Chimera
3. Wolf's Lair/Ordo Ad Chao (tie)
4. Grand Declaration
5. Deathcrush
6. Esoteric Warfare/Daemon (tie)

On another note: There was some talk earlier in the thread about the meaning of "objective value" in music and whatnot. To chime in on that, I don't think the statements "I enjoy X" and "I think X is objectively good" have the same meaning. That's not to say the latter is well-defined - I think it usually involves some combination or other (or a somewhat garbled mixture) of:

-"People who enjoy the genre to which X belongs commonly enjoy X."
-"X is original/influential; it's easy to imagine X's genre having developed in a much different way (if at all) if not for the influence of X, and consequently being enjoyed less and respected less."
-"To compose and/or play X's music requires a lot of music-theoretical insight, training, and/or technical skill."

You can say any one or all of those things while also saying, "I don't enjoy X," even as a fan of X's genre. Likewise, you can enjoy X while also believing that none of those statements applies - hence people's guilty pleasures and other idiosyncrasies.

Reading the last few posts, I might have to revisith Ghul/Teloch releases, just to refresh my memory and see if there might be something interesting in there. To me, that era always felt like Blasphemer era Mayhem Lite, but hey, maybe they aren't. I'll have to hear for myself.



Mostly yes. So I guess we can just leave it at that.

My personal ranking varies too often, depends a lot on the mood. Ordo ad Chao has their best songs but the production sucks. Esoteric Warfare isn't as good or memorable as Ordo ad Chao but the production is slightly better. Daemon sounds great but the song-writing isn't as adventurous.

1. De Mysteriis dom Sathanas
2. Ordo ad Chao/Esoteric Warfare/Daemon (tie)
3. Chimera
4. Deathcrush
5. Grand Declaration

I always like the thought of that album more than the albums itself. I actually return to it with regular intervals of a couple of years just because I think I might have missed something. But as of today I haven't been able to really get into it.



Yeah, and this is what I love about the band. It's so diverse and naturally people will like very different albums from the band. Heck, I can't even decide on what order I would rank the albums. Maybe it's easier if a did a tier system:

Tier 1:

Wolfs Lair Abyss, De Mysteriis and Ordo ad Chao.

Tier 2:

Grand Declaration of War (only because I think it's slightly to long).

Tier 3:

Daemon and Chimera.

Tier 4:

Esoteric Warfare

Tier 5:

Deathcrush

This thread prompted me to revisit 'Daemon' and 'Atavistic Black Commando'. Geez, both kick all kinds of azz.

Yes, well articulated. That about sums it up for me too. It's just good, weird, disjointed Mayhem fun. Business as usual but moreso.