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How you see Speed Metal?
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Author:  Spiderlix [ Thu Aug 31, 2023 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:  How you see Speed Metal?
I know this is a strange question,but i want to ask:how you see speed metal?I mean,not Power or thrash stuffs.Just speed.

I mean,i think speed metal is the hardcore punk speed without his punk agression but using traditional heavy metal instead.When i listen speed metal,i feel like the Song its the rock and roll ultimate form,but without blues or country veins of course.I mean,its the feeling i get when i listen to speed metal (I think thrash its more agressive heavy metal with his own songs structures,punk mixed with headbanger way and shredding.Power looks like more epic and fantasius than the rock/heavy/speed standards that were focused at parties,dance,sex,drugs,rock and roll or another topics too like Black Sabbath).

But am i wrong?It doesn't make sense?
Author:  SanPeron [ Thu Aug 31, 2023 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How you see Speed Metal?
Speed metal for me is something like this.





Is like thrash but less heavy and more focused on speed rather than the chainsaw riffs and aggression that thrash made popular.
Author:  deadtome [ Thu Aug 31, 2023 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How you see Speed Metal?


:headbang:
Author:  Kabooom [ Thu Aug 31, 2023 5:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How you see Speed Metal?
To keep it short, I think of Motörhead's Ace of Spades.
Author:  HeavenDuff [ Thu Aug 31, 2023 5:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How you see Speed Metal?
Spiderlix wrote:
I know this is a strange question,but i want to ask:how you see speed metal?I mean,not Power or thrash stuffs.Just speed.

I mean,i think speed metal is the hardcore punk speed without his punk agression but using traditional heavy metal instead.When i listen speed metal,i feel like the Song its the rock and roll ultimate form,but without blues or country veins of course.I mean,its the feeling i get when i listen to speed metal (I think thrash its more agressive heavy metal with his own songs structures,punk mixed with headbanger way and shredding.Power looks like more epic and fantasius than the rock/heavy/speed standards that were focused at parties,dance,sex,drugs,rock and roll or another topics too like Black Sabbath).

But am i wrong?It doesn't make sense?


I always had a hard time wrapping my head around what exactly is speed metal in the first place. It's kind of a mix of so many things, and it was born out of a time period when other subgenres of metal were also in their infancy, and so they had influences on each other. I always kind of thought of speed metal as a mix of trad and heavy metal but played faster. Maybe less abrasive and more melodic then thrash metal, but I've seen people refer to some bands as speed/thrash so the two subgenres are supposed to be able to mix too? I don't know... Oh, and I also guess that you're right about it being less hardcore punk influenced then thrash. That makes sense.

So when it comes to bands that fit the genre, Motörhead is the most obvious name. Other names pop to mind, but they were not necessarly "pure" speed metal, due to what I mentionned earlier. Stuff like Running Wild, which is also power metal, or Venom, which also fits in the 1st wave of black metal. Early Sodom also fits the bill, but they were black/speed as well.

And I mean, the mix of black and speed if very close to the sound of thrash like Slayer... So where do we really draw the line between these subgenres?
Author:  democracyiscringe [ Thu Aug 31, 2023 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How you see Speed Metal?
Fast heavy metal. Not something to be overthought (overthunk?). If you have to ask, you're overthinking it.
Author:  Oxenkiller [ Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How you see Speed Metal?
^Basically, this. It was sort of used synonymously with Thrash metal back in the day, but to define the difference would be splitting hairs; I guess you could say if there HAD to be a difference, it would be that speed metal had more of an early New Wave of British Heavy Metal influence, while thrash had more of a hardcore punk and early Metallica/Slayer influence.
Author:  Lagartija [ Fri Sep 01, 2023 4:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How you see Speed Metal?
Double-time heavy metal without so much punk influence as thrash, but grittier than power metal and without its epic and 'flamboyant' qualities, maybe?
(Although USPM is already much grittier than European power metal, but I suppose speed metal is still faster.)
Author:  ManAtArms [ Fri Sep 01, 2023 7:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How you see Speed Metal?
Speed Metal is a transitorial term that described developments in Metal during the first half of the 80s.
Though at the same time, its specifics and aesthetics became kind of a genre - but seen as oldfashioned in its original forms since 1986, I would say (the year that saw a breakthrough for more progressive and/or extreme genre-developments) One can say that it got "absorbed" at that point into Thrash and Power.

But listen to all the retro-bands that are influenced by releases from the Speed-era - from Enforcer to Ranger to Midnight. They persuaded me to call it a legit genre again.

P.S.:- The Helloween-/Blind Guardian-/Chroming Rose-/Scanner-sound had been often refered to as "Melodic-Speed" in the late 80s/early 90s before it got added under the Power-Metal-umbrella.
Author:  Necrodictator [ Fri Sep 01, 2023 8:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How you see Speed Metal?
Agent Steel "Skeptics Apocalypse" is probably a good example of what speed metal sounds like to me.
Author:  firelord_ [ Fri Sep 01, 2023 8:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How you see Speed Metal?
Speed metal is definitely a genre of its own these days. I'd say it's thrash metal but with more of the NWOBHM harmonic palette, occasionally with cleaner/more traditional heavy metal vocals. You don't really hear the thrash use of chromaticism in most speed metal, though conversely you do kinda hear the NWOBHM riffing in certain thrash metal bands, so unless you're well versed in the respective scenes separating the one from the other can feel a little redundant.

For what it's worth, self-described speed metal bands probably have a higher ratio of leather per band member on stage than in most thrash metal.
Author:  yungstirjoey666 [ Fri Sep 01, 2023 11:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How you see Speed Metal?
My main problem with speed metal with its legitimacy as a genre is not so much what it sounds like, but more so its lack of a concrete scene outside the trad/thrash/power bubble, which to me is just as important when defining a genre (and technically, USPM is just as much in this bubble). A lot of bands from this label like Exciter or Venom could easily be labeled "heavy/thrash," and Fast as a Shark would probably be called power metal if it was made in the US (and before you go all "it can't be thrash if it predates it," doom metal didn't come as a term until the 80s to redefine bands like Black Sabbath). The 80s were really murky when it comes to genre labels; along with the USPM issue, extreme metal at the time were pretty much borderline thrash/death/black.

But I guess it does have its relevance as a terminology, mostly for its historical value. Maybe maybe we've been mislabeling several thrash records when they're supposed to be "speed metal?"
Author:  SladeCraven [ Fri Sep 01, 2023 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How you see Speed Metal?
I don't, it's too fast. ;)
Author:  Kalimata [ Fri Sep 01, 2023 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How you see Speed Metal?
SanPeron wrote:
like thrash but less heavy and more focused on speed rather than the chainsaw riffs and aggression that thrash made popular.


This.

democracyiscringe wrote:
Fast heavy metal. Not something to be overthought (overthunk?). If you have to ask, you're overthinking it.


This too.

ManAtArms wrote:
Speed Metal is a transitorial term that described developments in Metal during the first half of the 80s.
Though at the same time, its specifics and aesthetics became kind of a genre


This too.

Spiderlix wrote:
I mean,i think speed metal is the hardcore punk speed without his punk agression but using traditional heavy metal instead.


Not really this.
Author:  Bronze Age [ Fri Sep 01, 2023 7:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How you see Speed Metal?
I see speed as one ingredient in a final product that usually has several ingredients.
Author:  Acrobat [ Sat Sep 02, 2023 3:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How you see Speed Metal?
How the fuck are Sodom speed metal?

The most typical example I can think of when it comes to a speed metal album is Agent Steel's debut. It's not just heavy metal, it's certainly not thrash, it has the Judas Priest influence... SPEED METAL!
Author:  Caspian88 [ Sat Sep 02, 2023 3:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How you see Speed Metal?
It's possible I don't own enough stuff that could be legitimately described as speed metal, but when I did a big genre cleanup in my digital files last year, I eliminated the term entirely. In my experience, I don't think it really describes a sound that is specific enough to merit its own term - every example I can think of is pretty close to traditional heavy metal, or thrash, or black metal, so I just got rid of it. To elaborate by way of examples:

Is Painkiller a speed metal album? Yeah, probably, but is it really that different from Judas Priest's broader catalog? I don't really think so, and I don't believe Judas Priest can be accurately described as a speed metal band, because much of their catalog isn't really that fast, and they were one of the defining bands of the entire genre. Do any of their other albums deserve to be described as speed metal? No, not really - maybe individual songs do, but because the only reason I can think of to care about genre classification as a system is in digital files, and tagging individual songs with different genres on the same album would present a ludicrous organizational nightmare, I'm not going to do it. Consequently, Painkiller gets tagged as "heavy metal," just like the rest of Judas Priest.

Is Kill Em All a speed metal album? Again, probably, but Metallica is one of the defining bands of thrash, Kill Em All isn't really all that different from Ride the Lightning, and it really isn't that similar to Painkiller or Battalions of Fear or Walls of Jericho or Thundersteel or anything else I can think of. It is pretty similar to Show No Mercy, but that presents the same problem.

Is Motörhead a speed metal band? No - they're too rockish and not consistently fast enough. I put them in a "heavy metal/rock" box to go with bands like Sir Lord Baltimore and Deep Purple.

Sodom? They're either too thrashy or too much of an early black metal band. Vemon? Same as Sodom, so I created a "black/thrash" tag to put stuff like Black Metal and In the Sign of Evil and Deep Tracts of Hell and so on in.

I just don't think it's a useful enough term for my purposes. My goal was to try and put reasonably similar things together and not have some really specific tag out there that only describes one album, and to not worry about what the rest of the world thinks (it's my music collection, not an academic library), and "speed" just isn't common enough to justify keeping. Maybe I'll find more stuff that belongs and change my mind.

...

I can agree that its useful as a term to describe certain things in their historical context.
Author:  Red_Death [ Sat Sep 02, 2023 7:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How you see Speed Metal?
As hard as it may be to concisely formulate what makes speed metal a distinct sub-genre or style, I think people did a good enough a job in this thread. So, I'm just gonna leave two precious little nuggets of post-1980s speed metal that almost never fail to put a huge grin on my face (also showcasing just how useful this label can be, but not necessarily for that many bands)

Spoiler: show


Spoiler: show
Author:  ManAtArms [ Sat Sep 02, 2023 7:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How you see Speed Metal?
The german DEAF-FOREVER-Zine had a Speed-Metal-Special in 2017. Part of the discussion was, of course, if XY belongs to the genre or not. Lots of entrys had been debated, like Anvil.

TOP 10-Albums:

Agent Steel - Sceptics Apocalypse
Metallica - Kill Em All
Helloween - Walls Of Jericho
Savage Grace - Master Of Disguise
Exciter - Heavy Metal Maniac
Running Wild - Gates Of Purgatory
Abattoir - Vivious Attack
Anvil - Forged In Fire
Flotsam & Jetsam - Doomsday For The Receiver
Megadeth - Peace Sells...

+ Albums from Razor, Amulance, Hallows Eve, Iron Angel, Heathen, Blind Guardian, Acid, Raven, Jaguar, Loudness, Dark Angel, Toxik, H-Bomb, Savage, Messiah Force, Riot, Have Mercy, Anthrax, Liege Lord, Paradox, Enforcer, Annihilator, Artillery, Mortal Sin, Grave Digger, Kublai Kahn, Intruder, Living Death, Vulture, Deliverance, Znöwhite, Divison Speed, Ranger, Atlain, Cacophony, Solitaire, Angel Dust, Evil Invaders, Dyoxen, Holy Terror, Defender, Avenger, Pyrancanda, Tröjan, Forté, Living Death, Vectom, Stallion, Turbo, Speedtrap, Intruder, Rage, Bulldozer, Morbid Saint (because of the guitar-work), Lääz Rockit, Hirax, ADX, Ballistic, Razorwyre, Striker, Seax, Toranga, Warfare, Blessed Death, Zoetrope, Warrant, Acid, Whiplash, Juggernaut, Holy Terror, Hawaii, Metalian
(often the early stuff)

Disputed, on some writer's lists but ultimately not included: Venom, Exodus, Piledriver, Overkill, At War, Tank, (early) Slayer, Forbidden and later stuff from Megadeth, Metallica, Raven, Blind Guardian...

Seen as Proto-Speed: Certain songs from Accept, Motörhead, Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, Deep Purple, Queen, Merciful Fate, even Scorpions....
Author:  Acrobat [ Sat Sep 02, 2023 7:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How you see Speed Metal?
Right, let's try and define things as I see them: speed metal is a fast (duh) form of heavy metal synonymous with the early-to-mid 1980s and has a strong focus on intensity. It can often be blended with other ingredients - for instance, given that Judas Priest are probably the most significant influence on the sub-genre, you might have a few mid-paced, heavy metal stompers on your album (especially if you're German) - similarly you can often get power metal (see: early Blind Guardian or Kai-fronted Helloween) or bands that are on their way to becoming thrash. Speed metal, as I see it, is the fruitful middle ground between heavy metal and thrash: heavy metal bands can have speed metal songs (Saxon have plenty, but never made an out-and-out speed metal record) and speed metal bands can have heavy metal songs ('Prisoners of Our Time' on the first Running Wild album, for instance).

Speed metal is somewhat nebulous for inexperienced heavy metal ears, but it is always apparent when you hear it. Trust your ears, take good care of your balls. Remember that the key word is intensity. A rough definition might be that speed metal is like thrash with the punk influence removed (speed metal bands might have a copy of a Sex Pistols album or a Ramones greatest hits somewhere in their record collection but they're probably not spending much time with Discharge, The Exploited and GBH - they probably think "UK82" means The Number of the Beast). What you really have is amped-up NWOBHM with a focus on some flash but a lesser focus on hard rock and heavy metal anthems.

Much like a lot of heavy metal sub-genres pinpointing an actual "ground zero" is sometimes tricky, but there are definitely key moments littered throughout the 70s. 'Highway Star' might as well be considered an formative influence, 'Fireball', too, 'Exciter' is definitely out-and-out speed metal, 'Overkill' is, of course vitally important. Judas Priest probably are the most important influence and it speaks volumes when several important speed metal bands are named after Priest songs: Running Wild, Exciter... err... Tyran' Pace?

Of course, The NWOBHM is massively important, too. Raven's fast songs and Saxon's fast tracks are certainly speed metal ('Heavy Metal Thunder', 'Lambs to the Slaughter', 'Inquisitor', 'Princess of the Night', 'To Hell and Back Again'). What really helps is the intensity of the performances: a drummer like Pete Gill could really push the double-bass intensity. Of course, Motorhead matters, as well. Similarly, Accept have several bonafide speed metal songs without ever committing to a full speed metal album (perhaps the mainstream ambitions of bands who came from the 1970s hindered them). If you're a speed metal band you've probably used the riff to 'Breaker' more than a few times and you've considered covering 'Fast as a Shark' (the German answer to 'Overkill'? Perhaps).

Maiden are important, too: especially when we consider the melodic content of later speed metal bands (Agent Steel, Blind Guardian, Helloween etc). However, I'm not really sure if Maiden have an out-and-out speed metal track.

Personally, I've always considered it more useful to see Venom as black metal. But, you can't deny the speed metal quality of, say, 'Witching Hour' (a song that borrows liberally from both Glenn Tipton's lick book and 'Overkill's finale).

In short, you'll know when you hear it!

Speed metal playlist:

1. Judas Priest - 'Exciter'
2. Accept - 'Breaker'
3. Accept - 'Fast as a Shark'
4. Saxon - 'To Hell and Back Again'
5. Agent Steel - 'Bleed for the Godz'
6. Helloween - 'Ride the Sky'
7. ADX - 'Deesse du Crime'
8. Trojan - 'Chasing the Storm'
9. Anthrax - 'Deathrider'
10. Running Wild - 'Victim of State's Power'
11. Rage - 'Suicide'
12. Kruiz - 'Brave New World'
13. Razor - 'Take this Torch'
14. Anvil - 'Free as the Wind' (alright, maybe I can find a more 'speed' Anvil song - but this is my favourite).
15. Grave Digger - 'The Reaper' (an example of 90's speed metal without the power metal influence that most bands have [even other Grave Digger records]).
16. Raven - Lambs to the Slaughter'
17. Metallica - 'Hit the Lights'
18. Riot - 'Fire Down Under'
19. Exciter - 'Heavy Metal Maniac'
Author:  idunnosomename [ Mon Sep 04, 2023 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How you see Speed Metal?
the playlist above is great!

i've always seen it as a genre without a scene, although not really thought about it properly for years now. it's an easy sound to define but it's very porous and bands shift out of it very quickly. Venom aside, take early Running Wild, who I see as quintessential speed, there's a lot of Celtic Frost sound in them, they did do a Noise split with them, and toured the US with them alongside Voivod in 1986. They might move in power metal circles later but I think up through to end of the '90s they're still speed (sadly few tracks they come out with now can be classed as such).

then there's Riot, who I've never looked into beyond listening to their albums culminating in the mighty Thundersteel. not sure who they toured with/label mates. Need to dive into them again.

Iron Maiden's big speed metal number for me is Phantom of the Opera.
Author:  Zelkiiro [ Mon Sep 04, 2023 7:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How you see Speed Metal?
Kabooom wrote:
To keep it short, I think of Motörhead's Ace of Spades.

This. "Ace of Spades" is the ur-example and the Platonic ideal of speed metal.

Other bands I think of include early Blind Guardian, Venom, and Speedwolf.
Author:  Voidsel [ Tue Sep 05, 2023 12:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How you see Speed Metal?
Caspian88 wrote:
Kill Em All isn't really all that different from Ride the Lightning


Interesting, and you may not mean it outside the sense of this discussion on speed metal, but I've always thought Ride the Lightning was a shockingly big jump from Kill 'em All. More so given they were released one year apart. Kill 'em All is high-energy in a more fun/rock-rebellion way and rhythmically simpler.. Ride the Lightning is suddenly darker, more serious with full-on thrash complexity and (this could be described better) some prog elements.

Funnily enough when I first started listening to metal a friend insisted Megadeth weren't thrash but speed metal. My young, black and white brain didn't want to hear that as I'd already categorised them as thrash, but if any of the big 4 are speed metal it's Megadeth.

Speed is a strange label, it's somewhere between NWOBHM and thrash. Not distinct enough to be a genre in it's own right but there are albumns that don't make sense to call anything else. Labels shouldn't be applied literally but ultimately speed is one element of music so the tag often fails to stick.
Author:  electric27 [ Tue Sep 05, 2023 1:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How you see Speed Metal?
Is this some sick attempt at summoning falconsbane?
Author:  KaiKasparek [ Tue Sep 05, 2023 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How you see Speed Metal?
electric27 wrote:
Is this some sick attempt at summoning falconsbane?



No one remembers who that is. Thank God. He too needs hot lead poured down his anus.
Author:  Kalimata [ Tue Sep 05, 2023 4:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How you see Speed Metal?
Caspian88 wrote:
Is Painkiller a speed metal album? Yeah, probably, but is it really that different from Judas Priest's broader catalog? I don't really think so, and I don't believe Judas Priest can be accurately described as a speed metal band, because much of their catalog isn't really that fast, and they were one of the defining bands of the entire genre. Do any of their other albums deserve to be described as speed metal? No, not really - maybe individual songs do, but because the only reason I can think of to care about genre classification as a system is in digital files, and tagging individual songs with different genres on the same album would present a ludicrous organizational nightmare, I'm not going to do it. Consequently, Painkiller gets tagged as "heavy metal," just like the rest of Judas Priest.


I wouldn't describe Painkiller as a speed metal album, simply because most songs are not fast enough to be called speed metal. Even the song "Painkiller" rather sounds like thrashy (thrashend?) spreed metal.
I agree that most Judas Priest catalogue can't be called speed metal, but I think they're the most influential band in speed metal, much more than Motörhead actually. "Exciter" is the real prototype of speed metal songs in my opinion.

Caspian88 wrote:
Is Kill Em All a speed metal album? Again, probably, but Metallica is one of the defining bands of thrash, Kill Em All isn't really all that different from Ride the Lightning, and it really isn't that similar to Painkiller or Battalions of Fear or Walls of Jericho or Thundersteel or anything else I can think of. It is pretty similar to Show No Mercy, but that presents the same problem.


Kill Em All is mostly a speed metal album that has the particularity of featuring the first real thrash metal songs. Only "Whiplash", "Metal Militia" and some riffs here and there are really thrash on this album. Songs like "Hit the Light" sounds more like rock 'n' rollish speed metal to me, while I feel Motorbreath sounds more speed metal with a strong dose of hardcore punk.
I don't agree at all about Kill Em All not really being different from Ride the Lightning: the latter sounds more mature, darker, and definitely thrash. Show No Mercy still has that speed metal feeling, but it's mostly thrash to me, maybe the real first full-on thrash metal album. Finally, I don't see the point of comparing Kill Em All to Painkiller or why comparing the former to the latter would help to define the genre...


Caspian88 wrote:
Is Motörhead a speed metal band? No - they're too rockish and not consistently fast enough. I put them in a "heavy metal/rock" box to go with bands like Sir Lord Baltimore and Deep Purple.


I think exactly the same. Never understood why they're seen as the typical speed metal band. Sure they're influential, but even their faster tracks like "Overkill" or "Ace of Spades" are at best proto-speed metal. Motorhead are mostly a hard rock/heavy metal band with punk rock influences that influenced speed metal. Again, "Exciter" by Judas Priest is a better example of early speed metal and even predates any Motörhead faster tracks.

Caspian88 wrote:
Sodom? They're either too thrashy or too much of an early black metal band. Vemon? Same as Sodom, so I created a "black/thrash" tag to put stuff like Black Metal and In the Sign of Evil and Deep Tracts of Hell and so on in.


Early black metal is mostly dark speed/thrash metal and I think this is the case for Sodom (that would become thrash later) and Venom (that have the real the first thrash song in the genre's history on their first album eventhough it's the only one).
Author:  des91 [ Wed Sep 06, 2023 9:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How you see Speed Metal?
Question a little bit related: Does a real Thrash song have to be played in double time or Skank Beat for it to be considered Thrash? Because I always thought it could be played at mid tempo as well, as long as it has that palm muted chugging riff pattern.
Author:  Zelkiiro [ Wed Sep 06, 2023 9:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How you see Speed Metal?
des91 wrote:
Question a little bit related: Does a real Thrash song have to be played in double time or Skank Beat for it to be considered Thrash? Because I always thought it could be played at mid tempo as well, as long as it has that palm muted chugging riff pattern.

I feel like thrash always needs that speed metal energy to really be able to thrash. Trying to go mid-tempo is how you end up with groove metal. :V
Author:  Space_alligator [ Thu Sep 07, 2023 1:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How you see Speed Metal?
While i don't really accept it as a genre...i sorta see it as a description for those bands outside Britain that bridged the 70's heavy metal and 80's thrash metal scenes...traditional heavy metal dosed with speed.
Author:  King_of_Arnor [ Fri Sep 08, 2023 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How you see Speed Metal?
des91 wrote:
Question a little bit related: Does a real Thrash song have to be played in double time or Skank Beat for it to be considered Thrash? Because I always thought it could be played at mid tempo as well, as long as it has that palm muted chugging riff pattern.

Thrash can have a variety of tempos; Metallica's 'Blackened' is a typical example, where it's fast during the intro, mid-tempo during the verses and slower during the bridge. Speed metal doesn't usually have as many of those tempo changes; Motorhead's 'Overkill' starts at a fast pace and keeps going that way for basically the entire song.
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