How far do you say is "too far" for lyrical themes, actions, etc in a metal group?

I.e. raping newborns. Too far, or acceptable?

Whats your say?

I think as far as lyrics go, there really isn't a too far honestly. I think there's such a thing as doing something in bad taste (see Anal Cunt), but honestly that's the appeal of some bands. You can't tell me that a bunch of you weren't once stupid teenagers like I used to be who first heard about Cannibal Corpse from the fact that their lyrics were about killing stuff etc, and thought it was the coolest thing ever.

As far as actions, I'd think that common human decency and the like would dictate that. For example, I remember reading in a thread someone said that there were some South American bands that bragged that they killed homosexuals. I think that is much too far. However, it would be too far even if they weren't in a metal band.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm going out to fetch some stillborns to mount on my fence posts.

That's interesting, why do you say that? I would say anything said as an artistic statement is fine, while saying it in your capacity as a regular human being is in poor taste. Lyrics use symbolism, parody, storytelling and lots of other devices, and we need to interpret what they mean. We all know that death metal bands aren't really advocating murdering babies, they're often expressing a hatred for youth or overbreeding, or getting us inside the head of a murderer. When black metal bands sing "rape christ" they aren't telling us to build a time machine and go back and do the act, they're communicating their distaste for christianity.

This is what bands, poets and musicians do, getting across ideas using sound and words as a creative tool. Lyrics aren't meant to be taken literally as a statement from the songwriters. They're probably the only people who can get away with it, because if a normal person would go on the street saying these things, it would offend.

Lyrically, metal bands can really say whatever they wish. Some will be gross (many early death metal bands), some will be cheesy (most melodic power metal) and many more will be political in nature (thrash metal, crossover, grindcore, etc.). But what artists do is represent reality in a way they see it, where they really see it like that or whether they decide its they way they're consciously interpreting (or misinterpreting) reality.

As far as the real actions go, I'd say some bands go a little too far. The Norwegian black metal scene of the early-90s is probably the most famous (or should I say, infamous) of them all, and hell, I'd even say its the most infamous scene of all rock forms. Especially with all the church burnings. To some, that's going WAY across the line, but to others, they are doing humanity a favor by eliminating what they believe is hurting society.

Drugs are also another matter. Smoking, for instance. Band members can do what they wish, but hell, some of the younger metalheads (i.e. the odd 11 or 12 year old) might smoke. And why not? His/her hero/heroine does it, so do they're parents, why not him/her?

Its those kinds of things that really make you wonder about metal in general. And the state of society too.

Too far would be to give a negative example, but then again, what is a "negative" example, which would then open up a whole-nother level of debate.

You can take the lyrics as far as the Aristocrat joke could go, AND THATS ANYWHERE.

Not to put words into said band member's mouths. But from what I've read they burnt down churches that were over pagan holy sites. So in their eyes they were just destroying a foreign religion edifice that was defacing their own. Or some felt that somehow by angering Christians enough they would start a new conservative christian backlash against non monotheism, so much so that they could openly war against it. An anti-christian revolution of sorts. And some said they did it just for the act in itself as an extreme life experience.



Arguably smoking pot is healthier than alcohol or McDonalds. I don't think band members bear the responsibility of an individual kid's lifestyle choice.



What do they make you wonder? That we need more of a granny style governmental system that tells you what or what you can't do to your own body?

This band is certainly taking things too far, both lyrically and through the actions of its members.

Indeed, utterly disgraceful. Both to metal, and society.

The biggest disgrace is the people who actually buy their albums.

"Where is the goblin that once ruled your life?
You gave him up through the power of Christ
No more hold does his power have on you
Erasing the goblin today we must all choose
The goblin is bleeding. The goblin is dying.
Once he is dead, continually erasing that sin,
Continually erase taht sin, continually erase that sin"

Defeat that goblin my friends!

the whole aryan, white power bullshit
and just racism in general-i would never support a message like that

IMO, lyrics can be retarded as hell, but I don't believe that there is a "crossing the line". I support the freedom of anyone to write anything, as long as the persons that do this don't actively try to affect my freedom to do the same, in which case I would respond in kind.

Sure, IMHO Aryan Terrorism is retarded. I t doesn't mean that they "shouldn't be allowed" to be retarded or anything like that. I just won't listen to their music that much since the retardation of the lyrics takes too much away from the quality (which in this case is already questionable) for me to actually enjoy it. If the music was downright awesome though, then I might have listened to it in spite of the retardation. The lyrics are, while I think they're stupid, not hostile to me. Therefore I see no reason to be hostile to them.

Mortification (and similar stuff) is also retarded IMO. What differs them from Aryan Terrorism is that they actually actively take a stance against my opinions, my faith (or lack thereof), and the lifestyle that I choose to live. Therefore I do not at all respect their opinion, wouldn't be caught dead listening to their music. What Mortification does isn't even the type of religious christianity that I would be able to live with. What Mortification does is mostly just plain anti-everything else but christianity. This makes their lyrics directly hostile to ME, and as such I in turn develop a hostile attitude towards the people who wrote them. It's just a natural reaction.

I don't dislike all christian metal though. Christian metal dealing with the more abstract and religious themes of the religion, and which isn't actively hostile to me, I have no problem with whatsoever. A lot of the time I still think that it is stupid, but like with Aryan Terrorism I still wouldn't take an actively hostile stance against it. I like Trouble (since the quality outweighs the fact that I think christian lyrics are stupid most of the time, coupled with the fact that Trouble's lyrics have some sort of quality and actually fit the music quite well), and you wouldn't see me bashing Antestor to nearly the same degree (even if I don't listen to them).

Quite simply, I might think that some lyrics are a bit stupid, but I wouldn't go ahead and be directly hostile to any band because of their lyrics (such as trying to deny them the right to write such lyrics), unless they are hostile to me first (such as trying to deny me the right to live my life the way I do).

I can understand why some other people would be hostile to NS bands, or bands with lyrics a lot of people find very disturbing (Woods Of Infinity comes to mind), but I am not, since they are not hostile to me. I see very little reason to go around hating people because they don't share my opinions or don't live their lives the way I do. They have to start hating me first, in which case I of course respond by doing the same.

You're right and I agree with your teenager meets Cannibal Corpse example. I'd agree on that no such thing as -too far in metal- exist, though the fun ends when it comes to the point where you can see things like little children all afraid because of, some people being literally scared of you even maybe just because of your appearance only, to all those infamous murders and suicides because of - Metal <example for which I think it's stupid btw, so I'll defend it with the saying "people kill people, not guns", in the name of the metal. In almost every main genre, from heavy or doom to black and grind metal, appropriate for every genre of course you have all those kinds of interesting things and themes to explore - and specially to the teenagers' ears, it works like a magnet. Perhaps not nowadays, but few years back such themes were much more intense; in short I also see it as praising the beauty of the ugliness, about the s/c taboo themes of which people doesn't like to speak of or discuss about and then they'll throw them straight-in-your-face.

Warning: Parental Advisory - Xtreme [S]explicit ConTNT Within!
[They won't show you this on public Tv or radio]

I can't imagine anything being 'too far' as I don't think ideas and statements alone can really mean anything without action.

I don't personally think there is a "too far" in general. Bands have the right to say whatever the hell they want. It's up to the fans to decide when it has gone too far by turning their backs if it's over the line. However, there are people out there who will probably enjoy it. I personally, draw the line at racist lyrics, but if the music is really good, then I might be willing to excuse it. I dislike the lyrics for some of Arghoslent's material, but the music is great so I listen. It's not really the lyrics that get me interested anyway.

So long as the music is metal and the players are not advocating crimes against humanity, I don't care. And to be honest, I really don't care about crimes against humanity either, but the majority does, so it's best to express that aspect of life lyrically rather than personally. We don't need any more negative publicity than we already have.

It really pisses me off (going off topic here) that metal heads get this stigma of being satanic baby rapers when the hip-hop community sells our mothers into prostitution, gets people hooked on crack - and then gets celebrated in the fucking media.

Agreed.

Personally, there are some topics I can't stomach, like pedophilia. I'm also VERY picky with NS bands, the music has to be of a very high caliber for me to overlook the ideological idiocy.

Please tell me how the hip-hop community sold your mother into prostitution and got your people hooked on crack.

They tricked her with coupons

No, seriously, tell me how hip-hop has done those things, I'm excited to hear exactly how

Not very related to the thread. We can hash it out in the tavern if you want.

metal lyrics are mostly made up for entertainment value to sell themselves and their music to the masses. I would venture to say the same is true for most all the other types and styles of music being sold today.

I don't think there is a truly "too far"...but for me it sort of depends how you present it. While I'm not a satanist, I can appreciate intelligent and well written lyrics about satanism attached to music. On the other hand the bands that sing about satanism with utter bullshit for lyrics, and bands like Cannibal Corpse that have lyrics expressly designed to scare the parents of twelve year olds. When it comes to Nazi type lyrics: well they're stupidity as far as I'm concerned, so I wouldn't listen to any outwardly right wing lyrics just because I don't want any misunderstandings with close friends.

I have that album.
>_>
<_<

*runs*

I realise I'm very, very late to comment on this.

Anyone who is so easily impressionable is quite frankly (in my opinion) an idiot. I don't remember ever being so gullible or foolish as a child, and I find the fact that some people are so insecure as to do something someone else does to make themselves "cool" or even just like someone they find "cool" disturbing. What's so wrong about taking a new approach? Sadly, new takes on things seem discouraged and sparse.

My two cents.

never too far.

The way I understood it, the person in the other thread said these bands actually bragged about having killed the people. Not in song lyrics, in interviews and such. If they actually did kill people, I, obviously, feel like that is too far.

Like I said, lyrics is one thing, but doing something like that is completely another.

I also think the whole subject of church-burning was completely ridiculous. It seems like a very childish way to show your disdain for something.

I think there is such a thing as going too far in lyrical content.

Anti-Ben is an example of lyrics that are too stupid and infantile.

Most Christian bands have lyrics that are even more stupid and infantile.

The only time I remember getting pissed off by anything in the genre was when I listened the last Belphegor album. The whole montage of girls getting whipped and shit is just something that gets me pissed off. I don’t mind hate against ideologies, the fun gore lyrics, or even an overall hatred for humanity. With ideologies, your attacking an idea, not a person, and the gore and misanthropia is somewhat childish. However, Woman hating/beating is not any of those, and it's something that people deal with to this day.

Same with the NSBM movement

PS

I do like Belphegor, and their overall sound.

One would feel compelled to point out that BDSM isn't necessarily rooted in misogyny/misandry, whereas NSBM is necessarily rooted in racialism.

Though in Belphegors case it's probably more shock value than anything else.

I don't think it's the issue of going to far, I think it's whats actually intelligent and what's just badly written or offensive. For example pretty much every Cannibal Corpse song is about something violent and gory with sexual things thrown in. While some people may love this, I personally don't find lyrics about raping dead woman very intelligent or decent. However, there are much better ways to communicate similar themes without sounding disrespectful or unintelligent. For example, many Iron Maiden lyrics are about battles or wars which are very gory but yet instead of just degrading woman and just having lyrics that look like they were taken from a horror movie script, they have intelligent lyrics that describe the battle and maybe describe emotions felt by the people fighting in the battle. But then again, this is metal, and metal isn't known for having the best lyrics anyway.

Also, religious lyrics. I have really no problem with Christian lyrics as I am a Christian. but however I think it is a little pointless if that is all the band talks about. I think a lyricist is much more skilled if they can talk about multiple topics instead of just focusing on one all the time. This brings me back to my example of Cannibal Corpse before. Although some might disagree, I don't think that the members of Cannibal Corpse are very skilled lyricists, because there lyrics have very little substance and instead of being thought provoking are just pointless.

If a band writes Nazi lyrics and praises the glory of Hitler, I think that maybe some people will not find as much appeal in the band whereas if they had lyrics about a different subject matter they would be looked upon with a higher amount of respect. I think this might be crossing the line, where a band has lyrics that are either so bad or offensive that people start to lose respect for the band. But then again, it's all in opinion. Some lyrics I like that you probably don't. Anyway, thats my view on things if anybody is interested.

Seconded.

The guys in Belphegor are just into BDSM, there's nothing inherently misogynistic about that. I always thought the whipping at the end was a fucking awesome way to end the album. Some people are into that and the girl they whipped obviously was a willing participant.

I personally think some gore/porno grind stuff goes too far with the misogyny but maybe that's because I occasionally get laid and don't bitterly hate my ex-girlfriends.

Indeed, I can't stand mysogynist lyrics. Not cool. Also, lot's of BDM bands have extremely violent lyrics about raping/killing/disfiguring/etc of women and children. While I understand they are lyrics and they don't really offend me, I find them tasteless, lazy and pointless. P.S. I'm not saying all BDM bands are like this, but just an example.

I actually thought Belphegor's lyrics and concepts on Bondage Goat Zombie were well thought out. Obviously as they say the album was inspired and conceptualized around the Marquis De Sade. Lots of Women into that stuff more so than men.

I subscribe to the whole "if you don't like it, don't listen it". Therefore, bands can go as extreme as they want, that's fine by me.

The way I see it, Metal started out with lyrics that were seen as too far for their respective time periods (Black Sabbath & Led Zeppelin singing about occultism or Iron Maiden singing about violent, epic war battles). All these lyrical themes were seen as "Too far" or Taboo (for lack of a better word) when they were originally written or released.

As time passes people obviously become desensitized and an Iron Maiden, Judas Priest or Black Sabbath album released nowadays doesn't have the same effect it would've had if released in the early 80's. In order to better accomodate modern metalhead's (and society's) general desensitization to occult or violent lyrics and themes, Underground metal has to progressively keep singing about more and more violent and taboo themes in order to keep the original aura of controversy in which heavy metal was originally spawned.

Now it's a completely different story if this music attracts individuals with violent tendencies (such as burning churches, killing homosexuals or desecrating graveyards and molesting corpses) but that's a completely different discussion and whether they are influenced or not by the music can be debatable...

Words are words. Actions are actions. No need for action until someone tries to take your words away.

That's true. I wish people would stop getting all uptight when people don't share their beliefs. Why can't people let it go? It's not that bad.

That's deep, man.


"Lyrical themes: Hating Bens"
lolwat?


I agree with most of the posts in this thread. The is no way to say what is actually "too far" because it's obviously different for everyone. Personally I'm yet to see any lyrics that actually offend me (aside from maybe some that are offensively stupid, but that's a different matter), but there's still time to find some yet.