I havn't really understood the meaning of groove when someone says X band or Y song has groove to it. Can someone enlighten me on how does one tell there is such in music?

Are you referring to Groove Metal specifically or just any music at all that has groove to it? Please clarify first so that this thread doesn't get confusing.

"Groove" in the metal context usually implies simplistic, often "stop start" (i.e. broken rhythms with intervals of silence), repetitive rhythms, usually performed at a slow tempo and low pitch. If thrash gallops, groove stomps around like a drunken King Kong. The ultimate expression of groove is the breakdown, which is usually a syncopated series of open chords played where the bridge would normally be to encourage hardcore dancing.

I am referring to metal that has supposed groove (IE new Sepultura songs, I can't tell), stuff like Damageplan/Soulfly/etc and the genre you mentioned.

I always interpreted groove as the typical rhythm of a certain genre. For example a Black Metal groove would be a rhythm with a time signature based on 3 (for example 3/4, 6/8, 12/8) or a Stoner groove would be something like the rhythm in Sleep's Dragonaut, with a heavy use of different variations of paradiddles.

"Groove" in metal/metal-related genres often refers to simple, low, slow stop-start powerchord driven riffs that use a lot of semi-tone intervals. At least from what I can tell.

Fixed

Well, that too XD

Groove metal actually can sound good. See Forbidden's Green album but yeah in general it stands for shit.

If Exhorder's albums are considered groove, then I would say there is kick-ass groove. But usually, it is shit.

Listen to Pantera from Cowboys from hell and on.

Groove riffs are catchy head-bangable riffs. Not necessarily a breakdown, just something that makes you want to move along with music. It could be any speed and could even be quite complex. Though not all catchy haed-bangable riffs are necessarily groove... I can't describe it in words, but I know what it sounds like to describe it as groove.

What I would consider groove type riffs:

Emperor - The Tongue of Fire (3:54 - 4:11...)

Suidakra - Gates of Nevermore (3:40 - 4:10)

Nile - chorus of The Essential Saults

Cradle of Filth - The Promise of Fever (0:53 - 1:12) (2:26 - 2:44)

Dimmu Borgir - Allegiance (4:55 - 5:28) not 100% on this one

Death - Secret face has a groove riff in it, so does Misanthrope... see if you can find them...

groove i love

White Zombie-La Sexoricisto
Obituary-The End Complete

there are others but in general most bands that "exploit" the groove tire quickly and lack substance. hard to explain what a groove is, but i guess i will say that the "groove" is that bit that makes you not headbang, but headnod and a smooth "ah yah" kinda way and might even make your shoulders sway just that tiny bit.

now ask yourself does any part of any song make you do that smooth, kinda soft comfortable sway n nod? that's a groove.
if a whole song is like that... fine, if a whole album is like that... hmm kinda one dimensional doncha think?... this is why many don't like "groove" because many bands that rely on it-in fact exploit it or use is as a crutch because they are poor at arrangements and don't understand builds, transitions or climax.

and that's part of my personal take

You described it very well. I agree 100% with everything you said. I loove groove parts in songs if used in good taste, they are usually my favorite parts. However when a band relies on groove too much, the albums usually get old kind of fast.

Black Sabbath had plenty of groove; you're full of shit. I'm no music theory major or anything, and admittedly I don't know a whole lot about the ins and outs of it, but groove isn't only restricted to the sort of monkeying around that douchebags like Lamb of God or Pantera do. Lots of music, metal or not, thrives on it.

If we're referring to metal with grooves, well, yeah, like everyone else said - rhythms that tend to repeat themselves in a manner that grooves them into your head.

ive always figured grooves were non-chuggy breakdowns. mortician has a lot of them.

The 1st band that I think of when I think of groove is Jungle Rot. It's just really heavy and catchy riffs. None of that nu-metal shit.

yah, BUT i gotta go back to my point, i liked their album from.... 97? for about 6 or 7 months but then i just couldn't listen to it anymore
i guess for me Jungle Rot is the perfect example of when it's just one groove too many

i like older Pungent Stench groove factor quite a bit

I agree that early Sabbath was very "groovy" but a lot of 70s Metal was due to the Blues/Jazz influence. That definition of "groove" is seperate from the present use of the word in regards to Metal. Like someone said, look to Pantera. Specifically riffs like the one in "A New Level." I would agree that a lot of bands took that sort of a riff and rammed it into the ground and made basically led to what we sorta call "Nu-Metal" or whatever it's called now. The idea of taking a simple riff that makes you bang your head easily which are almost always in 4/4 time. Exploiting it to make up for a lack of creativity like someone said.

Jungle Rot is amazing and all, but I can't tell their albums apart.

I'd say that maybe Testament's Souls of Black has a certain groove to it. In all honesty though, anything can be groovy if it suits your fancy. That's why I think it's a retarded term, just like so many other unessecary subgenres of metal.

Groove isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's just that when a band stops making a driving or interesting riff and says "Yeah, let's just grooooove here for a bit." that it becomes stale and nu-metally.

Plenty of death metal bands, such as Obituary and Bolt Thrower, make use of good groove.

I like groove in music and prefer it to the rigidity of most metal. It just sounds looser and there's more that can be done to fill up bars than just 000000000000. Soulfly makes simplistic music that is enjoyable to listen to because of its use of "groove".

Forget about the genre of "groove metal" or whatever.

To me groove is all about falling into a feel of sorts, perhaps the real groove is something invented by people like Dyke and The Blazers, James Brown, The Meters, acts that were R&B and took psychedelics and time started to slow down a bit, they heard rhythms differently. This is no different for those that came afterward, i.e. the classic rock acts Black Sabbath (I know, they're metal but I still consider them a classic rock band), Led Zeppelin and Jimi Hendrix who had that sort of "funk" groove in the rhythm section and threw electric blues over the top in the guitar riffing which continued into the 70's. It's almost a half-time sort of thing; sort of half-time jazz synchopated signature rhythmically.

I think Deep Purple are the band that took that sort of hyper speed (along with the more technical first speed metal fusion bands Mahavishnu Orchestra) groove and moved it into another territory. Drugs were definitely a large part of how the original originators perceived structure and then it just became status quo and bands just used the template. But what makes those original bands great is that they were exploring uncharted territories.

Much metal is not about synchopation really, at least in the dotted eight variety. To me that's a more old school 70's thing, and many of the early 90's stoner bands copied that style.

But as far as metal bands are concerned there are a shitload of bands that have awesome riffage and great grooves no doubt. It's just a different groove than the original bands had. It doesn't make it any less great, it's just derivative.

I guess it depends on what you personally define groove to be. It can be a many things.

Are you trying hard to get yourself removed?

That was well explained but musicians that are playing at 230 bpm can still "groove" without necessarily playing a "groovy" song. Many Americans seem to refer to groove as "the pocket" for musicians. It's kinda really hard to describe but basically groove is about how not every note you play is at exactly the same dynamic. For example, if you're playing drums, if you have no groove all your high-hat notes are going to be ubber loud and accented while your snare won't be loud enough etc (that's an example). If you groove then the high-hats won't be too loud etc. For many drummers having groove also has to do with playing the hats with a certain pattern such as accent, no accent, accent, no accent etc.

Basically, groove is all about HOW you play, not necessarily what you're playing. That's from a musicians stand point. Groovy music can refer to an entirely different thing though. Self-titled album by Dismember anyone?

So by this description i would say that Bolt Thrower as very good grooves in their songs

Yes, they sure do. Bolt Thrower are a good example of groovy death metal, just as Jungle Rot and Obituary.

I think people (here anyway) have generally made too big a deal about "groove" without properly defining it (beyond "it sucks"). It seems as if there's a paranoia about it. I admit that a few years ago, whenever I heard a staccato riff I became somewhat flustered and felt as if the band I was listening to had betrayed me with "modern" trappings. Then I realized that the concepts were so nebulous that it became meaningless and was not very useful in determining quality. So now I take a less absolutist approach to the term and have become wary of criticisms of "groove". Which is not to say I'm suddenly listening to Pantera and Machine Head all the time, as those kinds of bands still don't appeal to me much. I suppose I've just begun to not assign negative connotations to the term "groove" and will more specifically criticize what I don't like about a certain band/album/song/riff.

This is absolutely how I feel. Some people on this board seem to have a kneejerk reactionary action towards the word "groove" whenever it applies to music.

I maybe need to develop that skill, but there are some occasions when you can't really put your finger on a specific detail, but feel as if the WHOLE thing is major crap. Seriously, I can't define groove because of my lacking knowledge in some musical terms. If someone asks me to play a drum beat in 4/4 or whatever the fuck it is called, I would have no clue what he/she means. Still, I can recognize groove metal in general, especially when the whole band is just based on that, but not for example when a band just have a slight touch of that(as earlier mentioned: Black Sabbath, Bolt Thrower). And to be honest, I despise it. But, maybe I have discovered wrong bands. Who knows?

rexxz: Trying hard? I might have had some less-intelligent moments in this forum, but I still think you could have approached this in a less aggressive way. I've seen people write more crappy posts without being confronted with that attitude.

Don't make excuses now. Have the dignity to accept your scolding without bitching.

That sir, was a post worth to be sigged. But it would be the epitome of self-ownage if I sigged that as it was me who got told-off.

A good example i've always thought was In the Shadow of the Horns by Darkthrone, you can really bang your head to it and it's a fun rhythm to make noises to.

Dundun dun dundackadun dundackdun dundackadun dundun dun


i seriously do this everytime i listen to it, and i always hum this crap.

Yeah, pretty much the same here. Many bands use groove to their advantage, and most of the time it helps to create variety and power to the sound. It's a shame that so many metalheads have attached a negative stigma to the word, although I guess it's not implausible, given the shitty bands that do nothing but chug out boring grooves in an attempt to be heavy and angry.

I really think my worst problem is the vocals, and also the production. I have no words to define the production, but most songs I have heard just sound awful. The guitars, the drums, basically everything.

I actually think that the snare and bass drum is much more important for creating a certain groove than the hi-hat or any other cymbal.

Well, you're only speaking about the modern form of heavy metal that has been dubbed "groove metal." Listen to some Tad Morose and Morgana Lefay and tell me those grooves don't make you want to bang your head like a mongoloid.

Yes but Morgana Lefay has some other influences too(such as power metal). It is not 100% groove really. Nevertheless, it is rather enjoyable but I feel that with just changes in vocals and production, it could have been another of those bands I dislike. I will investigate them further though.

I never said they were 100% groove, my point was that they use grooves and they also rule, hard. As in, contrary to the stereotype that all groove is bad.