Well, the main topic to discuss is the real relevance of the “first line” bands (Immortal, Mayhem, Burzum and Emperor) and the “second line” bands (Satyricon, Ulver, Borknagar and Gorgoroth). Are they as relevant as they seem to be for the BM world?, Without them, would we have a second wave of BM?, and finally, are they really the responsible for the distinctive sound that BM has after the 90’s or other bands from other countries were doing the same thing and they were just well known for the non musical events? Do you think all these bands sell out, died of old age or are still alive and healthy?
I know this has been done before, but I’m interested to know what you think on this topic

Don't quote me, as I haven't really been into metal for too long, but I would guess that we would've had black metal, but by no means the black metal we see today, as black metal was springing up in Sweden and Finland as well as Norway. So yes, we would've had black metal, just a completely differnt black metal to the one we see today.

I don't think without the first line, BM might have gotten as popular as it did. It would attract most of us regardless, but the actions of some people really drew in a lot of people who just cared about the "scene", but later grew into the actual music.

This might have even started the BM Elite phylum.

I personally think the black metal world would be a lot better. More varied, less mainstream. Since the Norwegian bands were so infamous and well known, most black metal bands only take influence from them.

Look at how diverse the scene was in 1990. In Brazil you had the deathrashy brazilian sound. In Canada you had the war black metal sound. In the US and Finland, the sound was mostly bestial "goat" metal. Even in Norway, you had many different sounds. Mayhem with their Deathcrush sound. Darkthrone had THE sound. And Burzum had their burzumic sound.

After 1993, more and more bands started taking influence from the Norwegian bands only. Now every country plays pagan/viking black metal.

Agreed. Just cause it's first wave and the original doesn't mean you have to worship it and not evolve the genre. I'm sure the style would have evolved independently without the first wave bands, but as to what it's current state would be who knows. I can personally see it coming to fruition as a more viceral form of thrash but without the personalities of some of the first wave it wouldn't have gotten the identity that is associated with it and really drove it into the scene.

Side Note: I find it funny using the term scene with black metal. Hilarious to think that at the time everyone who was abandoning death for black was probably considered a scenester and just jumping on the satanic band wagon. Sounds familiar =)

The things going on in the early 90's in norway did shape a lot of the modern black metal.

I guess in a way it would be more diverse by looking at what was going on in black metal in the rest of the world.

However, the notoriety of the norwegian scene did influence many black metal bands who have been around 1993 and on, however everything going on in those days still has a niche of fan base and general sound.

the first wave of black metal are actually bands like Venom, Sarcofago, Bathory and such, who aren't black metal as we know it today but paved the way with anti-christian lyrics and violent sounds. THEN came Dark Throne, Mayhem, Emperor, Burzum and all.

Some great Norwegian bands, for sure. The scene was large compared to some other countries, and did have a distinct sound, though many bands applied their own formula to that sound. However, there were things going on in other countries in the late 80s/early 90s too, and there's no doubt in my mind that we'd have great black metal without Norway. I don't value the greatest Norwegian bands above their contemporaries from Greece, Italy, Switzerland, the Czech republic, or Brazil. I also don't subscribe to the wave theory and always thoughtt it had more to do with particle physics than black metal. All that happened was that there was a surge in popularity after a lot of media attention.

These bands are the so-called second wave, but to be honest they did give black metal a huge injection. I can remember my first time reading about these bands when they were vertually unknown outside Norway, I still have a copy of Kerraanng! believe it or not who at the time did a special report on the scene, the murders, church burnings etc which in away did create a big interest in this type of music, I have early reviews of some of the releases and to be honest they were given very poor marks in some reviews 1 out of 10!, how things have changed, but they def had a huge part in moulding the scene to the size it is today, even in some cases touching the mainstream, for me this was prob the most exciting time in my metal history,a new era if you like was just about to explode and I was glad I was lucky to witness it and follow it from near the start, what these bands were playing, the violence etc had never been seen on this scale before, but most of all the mystery surrounding their scene/inner circle made many a metal fan interested in who they were and what they started, then the reviews began to change... so black metal would not be were it is today without them, Bathory,S/fago,Venom etc had already been about, but these guys brought and added so much more, I was blown away when I first herd the Emperor MCD, Darkthrone, Enslaved, but Burzum were somthing else all together, genius!

I'm aware of other scenes going on in other countries, but it seems that the norwegian was the most... extreme, not musically, but ideologically and, of course, when it comes to acts. The first thing that calls my attention is the diversity you can find from the first "second wave" bands, all sound different but you can tell they all belong to the same thing, they were all innovative at their time and they didn´t fear the media exposure. It seems like they push the limits a little bit more than other scenes, thats why they were so strong. I'm not sure what would happen with norwegian BM without the church burnings and the murder of Euronimous, meybe these episodes weren't really important to the scene, we'll never know. The fact is that when you think of BM, the first country that comes to mind is Norway.
And I don´t know if other scenes have so many good and origial and distinctive bands as Norway has.
I love BM, from all countries, but to me, Norway is the winner when it comes to attitude, originality and power.

pretty sure he used "first line" and "second line" referring specifically to the second wave, as in when they came out (ie immortal, mayhem, burzum, emperor all started around the same time and then came along satyricon, ulver, gorgoroth, borknagar)

A great sounding movie about the scene has just recently been released, in selected cinemas I believe, you can check it out here, as well as a couple of clips from Varg and Fenriz http://www.myspace.com/blackmetalmovie
Will start a topic to see if anybody has seen it yet.