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Somar
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:56 am 
 

usually it's easy to go with the idea that good musicians do good music, bad musicians do bad music, and that's probably very true in a way

what i'm interested in, is what bands do you think might fit the category of having really good musicians, guys that individually are really strong with their instruments, but yet, for some reason can't put up good music, or at least not good enough for their talent level, maybe it's because despite having good playing abilities they are poor song writers, or simply their ideas don't really come together, or whatever, but the fact is, the final product doesn't match the talent of the people behind it

in a similar way, also interested in what bands might fit into the other side of things, bands that while having individuals that might not be so accomplished as individual musicians, manage to put together really awesome music, either through good songwriting, or because the idea behind the music works despite the lack of talent, or whatever reason

and please don't take the terms good and bad literally, they're meant as pointers only and not as measurements of actual talent, i only used them because i didn't want to make the tittle too long
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schizoid
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:45 am 
 

Have you got an example of your own?
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k311250
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:20 am 
 

Opeth are great musicians doing terrible music since Watershed. The same goes for Steven Wilson, the last two albums were awful.

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Ace_Rimmer
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:21 am 
 

Dream Theater


/drops mic

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Twisted_Psychology
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:36 am 
 

Sounds like the gist of this thread is dealing with bad musicians who happen to be good songwriters and vice versa.

There are far too many cases of good musicians making bad music to bother listing them so I'd nominate Witchfinder General as a case of bad musicians making good music, especially on Death Penalty. The guys were sloppy and extremely amateurish, but you can't deny that songs like Burning A Sinner and R.I.P. are excellent.
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DecemberSoul
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:20 am 
 

Fleshgod Apocalypse. Their music sounds as if recordings of 2 largely opposite genres were being played simultaneously, and it simply doesn't work for me.
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Somar
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:25 am 
 

schizoid wrote:
Have you got an example of your own?

I do, but in my experience if you give examples in the OP, some people will focus on that and miss the point.

I agree with the Dream Theater example above, I also think Meshugga are a great example were good musicianship doesn't equal good music.

An example of the opposite would be Drakthrone. I don't think they're particularly exceptional at playing their instruments as individuals, but it works and they've put out some good music through the years. Immortal would fit here as well.
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Twilightkid
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:57 am 
 

Ramones.

Meh musicians.....Best Music...
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FirebathDan
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:38 am 
 

Twilightkid wrote:
Ramones.

Meh musicians.....Best Music...


I see what you're going for, and by and large agree, I'd say that Marky is hardly a "meh" musician though. It takes insane technique and stamina to play 8th notes as cleanly as he does, especially at the tempos the songs take on something like Loco Live, for example. Marky is a high level musician that just happens to have made his bones with The Ramones, where high level musicianship is not necessarily required.

But yeah, we are not talking about individual musicians here, but bands as a whole, so yeah, your point pretty much stands. The Ramones pretty much have a bulletproof catalog.
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ingmar birdman
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:59 am 
 

Judas Iscariot is my go-to example of a musician with a, let's say limited skill set, making excellent albums. I think he improved quite a bit by the time of "To Embrace the Corpses Bleeding" but his earlier albums had very amateurish musicianship, especially the sloppy timing between drums and guitar. But man it's really great music.

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Epicureo
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:39 pm 
 

Frontier Records, AFM Records and Lion Music got plenty of bands with excellent musicians (heck, even straight up maestros) releasing subpar or sucky music.
You could say that it's the fate of most solo projects leaded by already successful musicians.

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jimbies
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:51 pm 
 

Is Metallica the obvious choice? I will leave how I feel about their chops (and specifically Lars) out of this post.

Some people think Metallica's skills have diminished, some think they never had particularly great chops to begin with, yet so many people consider their records and songs to be classics.

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Unorthodox
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:59 pm 
 

Bad musicians doing good music- The Dillinger Escape Plan. No understanding of music or music theory, and many people would question if their older material is even music. Nevertheless, they still managed to push the ball forward and be incredibly interesting. They also became a lot better as musicians over time, so this doesn't really qualify for later stuff.

Good musicians doing bad music- Every progressive death metal band that decides to plug into Axe FX, create some stale perfectly-audible-but-plastic-asf tone, and noodle endlessly with no direction. Too many bands to list. Too bad Beyond Creation is beginning to fit this category, because their first two were albums were actually killer and well written.
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Twilightkid
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:06 pm 
 

FirebathDan wrote:
Twilightkid wrote:
Ramones.

Meh musicians.....Best Music...


I see what you're going for, and by and large agree, I'd say that Marky is hardly a "meh" musician though. It takes insane technique and stamina to play 8th notes as cleanly as he does, especially at the tempos the songs take on something like Loco Live, for example. Marky is a high level musician that just happens to have made his bones with The Ramones, where high level musicianship is not necessarily required.

But yeah, we are not talking about individual musicians here, but bands as a whole, so yeah, your point pretty much stands. The Ramones pretty much have a bulletproof catalog.


'Meh' was a poor choice of words on my part... The Ramones are one of my top 5 favorite bands...

Meant more so, that while not technically perceived as great musicians, the songs they wrote are timeless...
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Ludicus
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:16 pm 
 

This was my first thought when reading the title.. Good people and bad musicians.

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Somar
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:31 pm 
 

[/quote]

'Meh' was a poor choice of words on my part... The Ramones are one of my top 5 favorite bands...

Meant more so, that while not technically perceived as great musicians, the songs they wrote are timeless...[/quote]

Yes, that's kind of the point, great musicianship doesn't always translate into good songs.

But i also feel that song writing is the most important part of being a good musician. You might not be the most gifted guu when it comes to execution, but if the song writing ability is there, that usually translates into better songs than guys that can make it look like they have 10 hands but then fail to understand how to use that effectively in a song.

The Darkthrone example i gave above also goes here. I think Darkthrone are good musicians, i don't think they're the best at their instruments and the music, for most times is quite simple, like Ramones, yet their ability to understand the music they create makes them awesome song writers.

I kind feel my title for this thread is poor, like someone above said, song writing vs musicianship would probably fit better for what i intended.
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Somar
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:40 pm 
 

jimbies wrote:
Is Metallica the obvious choice? I will leave how I feel about their chops (and specifically Lars) out of this post.

Some people think Metallica's skills have diminished, some think they never had particularly great chops to begin with, yet so many people consider their records and songs to be classics.
i thought about them, yet i feel they're kind of different in a way.

My take on Metallica is that they are, for the most part, good musicians and with good musicianship to them.

What i feel happened was they found a way to be successful and got lazy, ok, lazy probably not a good word, cosy probably fits better

Anyway, what i think is once they found a thing that worked and sold records they stuck with it and lost the edge and the appeal to a more metal oriented crowd because they music became safe. They did some mild experimentation too, but always with a strong foothold in that same formula.

Even in more recent material, i think it's possible to find some interesting Metallica stuff and some good musichianship here and there, but it's masked beneath all that safe, stale formula that they decided to stick with.
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Ace_Rimmer
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:02 pm 
 

Honestly I don't get that at all. Load is not Metallica is not Justice is not Puppets, etc. I don't think anyone was expecting St. Anger. Though after that they went back to nostalgic metal and the last two are pretty tame. But I don't think they would have followed up the biggest metal record of all time with Load if they were just playing it safe.

As for musicianship. Well sure Kirk has become one with his wah pedal and Lars is lazy as fuck live. But as for studio work, Lars has a lot of great drum parts and in the 80's was routinely praised, even by other musicians. Actually I even think his drums on Load are very good, a fill fest is not what those songs need. But I realize I'm in a minority in enjoying that record. Live...well he is a joke no doubt. But honestly in the arena its not an issue like it is on recordings of those shows where his often sloppy playing, dropping entire drum parts, and fucking others up stands out. Kirk, well he can shred and his classic Metallica playing is fine for the most part. I can't say lead guitar was a problem in Metallica.

Hetfield is a rock solid rhythm player and every bassist they have had more than carries their weight.

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BastardHead
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:26 pm 
 

For bad musicians making good music, Metallica was a good answer, but it's only half true really. They've always had great bassists (even if they manifested their talents differently and they didn't always shine on record) and if you ask anybody who actually plays guitar at a high level, they'll praise James's rhythm playing (read: dedication to downpicking fucking everything) to high heaven. The real culprits are Lars and Kirk, who are both just, on a technical level, so shitty. Lars is notorious for being Phil Rudd-level simple most of the time, playing mostly like a standard rock metronome despite the inherent aggression of playing in a metal band and even having songwriting credits on pretty much every song the band has ever released. Kirk is, was, and always will be an incredibly sloppy lead player who's real talent seems to be writing brain-dead simple solos (I'll never forget the day my buddy and I, at age like 13, decided to learn how to play One, and he nailed the climactic solo after only like two or three dry runs. He just looked at me and said "Holy shit I never realized how fucking easy that is"). However, their comparative lack of technical skill to the other half of the band has, in my eyes, always been a part of Metallica's charm. Kirk's solos are really simple but oftentimes that's only noticeable to actual musicians. When I was a little kid exploring my mom's CD collection, I didn't care that it takes fifteen minutes to learn how to play One, I just cared that it sounded like fireworks coming out of a guitar. He made that shit sound awesome, and on Kill em All especially he was fuckin electric. Lars's simple rock beats behind exciting thrash really lent the band a character that to this day is more or less unmatched. Thrash tends to attract people who want to push boundaries. To be faster, meaner, more extreme than what came before you, especially in the 80s when classic albums were one upping each other left and right. Metallica never was that, they were contemporaries with fucking Exodus and Slayer but they never really tried to beat them at their own game, and Lars helped them create their own identity parallel to the rest of the scene trying to outpace one another. He just sat back and kept a solid backbeat with no frills and let the rest of the guys take center stage (only with his playing of course, don't mistake that for me claiming him to be a humble man, because lol). It helped the music be more accessible to outsiders and broadened their appeal, since with the percussion sticking to something familiar and easy to digest, they never became sensory overload. The technical warts that Lars and Kirk brought to the table wound up just being part of the charm that made them who they are, and on those classic albums I wouldn't trade either of them for better players.

As for the opposite question, of good musicians doing bad music... well one part of me wants to say Arch Enemy, because with the additions of Alissa White-Gluz neutering her impressive vocal range to simply monotone growls and Jeff Loomis reining in his immense talent to just be Mike Amott's human harmonizer pedal (and Amott himself is an incredible guitar player who just writes the same three riffs over and over and over again), they're really wasting a lot of talent. There's another part of me that wants to say Iced Earth, with Stu having an amazing range but being forced to just impersonate Barlow and Owens, plus Jon being an unbelievably good guitar player (ask a real musician how easy it is to consistently and cleanly play those triplet gallops at 220 bpm) but suffering the same problem as Arch Enemy where they just write the same two or three songs four to six times per album and call it a day.

But no, I'm gonna swing for the fucking fences here and bring up a name you never expected.

Limp Fuckin' Bizkit.

Despite being an eternal punchline and collective embarrassment of late 90s/early 00s pop culture, they do sport a handful of accomplished musicians who have absolutely no business making such god awful music. It's been a while since I looked it up, but I recall reading before that John Otto is actually a accomplished jazz drummer who is pretty adept in many wildly different styles, DJ Lethal is... well I don't really know how to judge DJs but given that he was in House of Pain I have to assume he's no scrub, and Wes Borland is just way too good for them. He's a really weird dude who does really weird shit all the time, but if you venture outside of his work with his main band you can see that he's full of boundless creativity and a complete distaste for easy cliches, which just makes it all the more insane that he's stuck with Limp Bizkit for so long. His sole album as BigDumbFace is... well kinda bad and stupid, but he showcases so many different facets of his playing and writing that it just boggles the mind to think that he rose to prominence for the dumbass two-note frat boy bullshit that he did. That album even has a few legit metal songs that are honestly pretty solid. I mean, check out Burgalveist, that could've slotted nicely anywhere on Strapping Young Lad's best albums. And yet, he did it all for the nookie.
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Wrldeatr
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:36 pm 
 

Isn't most 80s heavy/glam filled with amazing musicians grouped in manufactured bands, dressed up as chicks and put in a studio where the label/producers concocted albums who knows how.

I suspect that most of the early death/grind bands weren't particularly good musicians but came up with something pretty interesting. Carcass admitted that for some of the early records they had no idea what they were doing.

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Element_man
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:40 pm 
 

BastardHead wrote:
Limp Fuckin' Bizkit.


Absolutely 100% true. Incredible instrumental talent in that band. I didn't clue into this until hearing the song "My Way" at a Karaoke bar a few years back. The bassline in the song stuck out in a way that I hadn't noticed before and it actually bugged me to the point where I went back and re-listened to some of their stuff. The quality and nuance of their rhythm section deserves a lot of credit.
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Xenophon
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:05 pm 
 

That is a thoughtful and high-quality post, BastardHead. I agree about Metallica, and I didn't know that stuff about Limp Bizkit, that's interesting.

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TrooperEd
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:37 pm 
 

Xenophon wrote:
That is a thoughtful and high-quality post, BastardHead. I agree about Metallica, and I didn't know that stuff about Limp Bizkit, that's interesting.


Indeed, I fapped to that post.


Though I do have to call bullshit on the reason Lars receiving criticism because he chooses to play simple over technical. Mike Portnoy says this horseshit a lot and you want to beat him over the head with the largest possible Megadeth boxed set and yell "KNOCK IT OFF! YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET A DRUMMING JOB WITH METALLICA! SHUT UP! IF YOU'RE SO WORRIED ABOUT A PAYCHECK YOU NEVER SHOULD HAVE LEFT DREAM THEATER."

Excuse me, I farted.

Anyways, that argument is bullshit because Lars frequently fails at the one job a drummer is supposed to do: keep time. It's not that Lars only sticks to being simple, it's that he can't even do that right consistently. Lars actually tries to be technical way more often than people think, its just that he throws in fills and cymbal crashes at really inappropriate times especially on the old albums. I know this because as a drummer its something that all drummers, especially metal drummers do when they first pick up the instrument. You're so excited to be hitting things with sticks (as Neil Peart calls it) that you just look for any spot to do it. The problem is when you're trying to write or perform songs constantly filling becomes a big distraction to the audience. It's not just a drum problem either. If a guitarist or bassist is throwing busy licks at the end of every measure it detracts from the song. Which is how the ill-conceived musical phrase "less is more" came to be. But back to Lars, it just seems like he never really grew out of that phase. He just would get too excited and throw in a fill when he should be keeping time. I think this is the reason why James is (rightly) hailed as such a great rhythm guitarist. He's the real timekeeper of Metallica and he realized very quickly he would have to fulfill that role if he's gonna be in a band with Lars.

There's one other thing that Lars does that's really weird, and maybe I'm the only one that notices this, but its the way he plays fast. It feels like only uses the kick drum every 3 snare hits or so when it should be going kick-snare-kick-snare-kick-snare. It feels like Lars uses one kick drum per measure, and it's such an odd habit. That one show where Dave Lombardo filled in for him a couple of songs I was hoping he'd play fast correctly (kick-snare-kick-snare etc.), but no, he just did it the same way Lars did. I felt slightly betrayed.


In terms of contributing something to the thread, I'm certainly not going to call the guys in Iron Maiden bad musicians but it has become perfectly clear these past couple of decades that Steve wants Maiden to be on Rush or Dream Theater's technical level and he or whoever it is in the band just doesn't have the chops to pull it off. Case in point, a few years back when they did that reunion era majority set, they had to drop Paschendale (by far their best epic of this era) after a few dates because it was too much for them to handle. What did they substitute it with? Wrathchild. Epic Fail.
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Scorntyrant
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:53 pm 
 

Somar wrote:

An example of the opposite would be Drakthrone. I don't think they're particularly exceptional at playing their instruments as individuals, but it works and they've put out some good music through the years. Immortal would fit here as well.


I think Soulside Journey proves otherwise. It's quite a technically accomplished album and shows that their current level of playing is a matter of choice/style rather than technical limitation.
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thrashinbatman
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:21 pm 
 

There was a brief period of time (roughly '86 to '94) when Lars could be classified as a "good" drummer. He was still no Tom Hunting or Gene Hoglan, but I feel like you could say he was good with a straight face. On KEA and to a lesser extent, RTL, he was obviously the weak point, barely hanging in there with James and Cliff. On Master he was able to at least keep up, and AJFA was where he came into his own as a drummer. His drumming on that album is pretty good, though I'm aware it was largely edited together. Watch his performance on the Seattle '89 show on Live Shit, he was electric. His skills from Load onwards have slowly sloped downwards, to where now he can barely handle much of anything. It's obvious he's uncomfortable doing anything beyond bare-bones basic and isn't interested in practicing at all. Listen to a live show of theirs in the past ten years and take a shot every time he does straight 8ths on the snare for a fill regardless of whether it's appropriate. TrooperEd is absolutely right about his weird thing with the kick, I've noticed it as well. He really holds back the faster material on the past two albums; they're screaming for intense skank beats and he simply cannot deliver that.

Kirk I'll always defend; yes, he was never a guitar wizard, but he's always been able to hang with James even if he isn't as solid a rhythm player as Hetfield is. His solos have always been fairly simple and basic, but at least back in the day he made up for it with solid compositions. Solos like "The Shortest Straw" and "The Unforgiven" simply cannot be described as "bad". He knew how to make the most of what he had. I have no idea what's happened in recent times; his solo work on Death Magnetic and Hardwired are laughable, just stock pentatonic shredding with no thought put in. I know they were improvised, but "A Year in and a Half" showed him improv the solo to "The Unforgiven" too and that solo fucking rocks. His downward slide is really evident in that solo he did on Exodus' "Salt the Wound"; that was the best performance he's put up since the 90's, and he gets bulldozed by Gary Holt. Very weak and sloppy playing.

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Wilytank
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:41 pm 
 

Simple or not, the guitar solo on "Ride the Lightning" is my absolute favorite guitar solo in heavy metal.

As for bad musicians doing good music, I wanna bring up Summoning. Absolutely none of their material has musicianship that's at all impressive, but fortunately it's not really the point of their music. They succeed in writing these cool epic fantasy pieces that just sound awesome despite their overall simplicity. This also applies to Elffor, Midnight Odyssey, and any other half-decent band that takes obvious influence from Summoning.
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Oxenkiller
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:18 pm 
 

The obvious answer, and I'm sure it's probably been stated more than once already is... Meshuggah are great musicians but the music is terrible.

Celtic Frost were not very good musicians, but the music was excellent.

And that's all I have to say about that.

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schizoid
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:58 am 
 

TrooperEd wrote:
Anyways, that argument is bullshit because Lars frequently fails at the one job a drummer is supposed to do: keep time. It's not that Lars only sticks to being simple, it's that he can't even do that right consistently. Lars actually tries to be technical way more often than people think, its just that he throws in fills and cymbal crashes at really inappropriate times especially on the old albums. I know this because as a drummer its something that all drummers, especially metal drummers do when they first pick up the instrument. You're so excited to be hitting things with sticks (as Neil Peart calls it) that you just look for any spot to do it. The problem is when you're trying to write or perform songs constantly filling becomes a big distraction to the audience. It's not just a drum problem either. If a guitarist or bassist is throwing busy licks at the end of every measure it detracts from the song. Which is how the ill-conceived musical phrase "less is more" came to be. But back to Lars, it just seems like he never really grew out of that phase. He just would get too excited and throw in a fill when he should be keeping time. I think this is the reason why James is (rightly) hailed as such a great rhythm guitarist. He's the real timekeeper of Metallica and he realized very quickly he would have to fulfill that role if he's gonna be in a band with Lars.


I'm curious to know what you think of the drumming on W.A.S.P.'s Crimson Idol album. I'd say it's pretty "fill heavy" to say the least.
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TrooperEd
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:07 am 
 

schizoid wrote:
TrooperEd wrote:
Anyways, that argument is bullshit because Lars frequently fails at the one job a drummer is supposed to do: keep time. It's not that Lars only sticks to being simple, it's that he can't even do that right consistently. Lars actually tries to be technical way more often than people think, its just that he throws in fills and cymbal crashes at really inappropriate times especially on the old albums. I know this because as a drummer its something that all drummers, especially metal drummers do when they first pick up the instrument. You're so excited to be hitting things with sticks (as Neil Peart calls it) that you just look for any spot to do it. The problem is when you're trying to write or perform songs constantly filling becomes a big distraction to the audience. It's not just a drum problem either. If a guitarist or bassist is throwing busy licks at the end of every measure it detracts from the song. Which is how the ill-conceived musical phrase "less is more" came to be. But back to Lars, it just seems like he never really grew out of that phase. He just would get too excited and throw in a fill when he should be keeping time. I think this is the reason why James is (rightly) hailed as such a great rhythm guitarist. He's the real timekeeper of Metallica and he realized very quickly he would have to fulfill that role if he's gonna be in a band with Lars.


I'm curious to know what you think of the drumming on W.A.S.P.'s Crimson Idol album. I'd say it's pretty "fill heavy" to say the least.


You know, it's not so much that as much as it is the same fill over and over again.
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traxan
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:10 am 
 

Good musician doing bad music: Jeff Loomis in Arch Enemy. Bonus: and he wasn't allowed to contribute any songs on the last album.

Also: Bob Trujillo in Metallica. He's a real good bassist, just in the wrong band for his style. But he gets along with the others, especially James, which counts for, well, everything.

As for the rest of Metallica, it is amazing that they achieved their status without one exceptional player. Look at the other Big Four. Megadeath has always had talent to spare. In Anthrax you got Joey and Charlie. In Slayer it was Lombardo, proof that a drummer makes the band because he carried three mediocre players to greatness. But in Metallica you don't have a member who is considered tops in anything. Except maybe Trujillo.

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Crescent_Moon
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:11 am 
 

Burzum - Varg wasn't kind of virtuoso but his skills were enough to record some brilliant albums.

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:30 am 
 

I saw The Kovenant live in 1999 I think. Hellhammer came on stage first, and there was a kind of murmur in awe going through the hall, he was considered the best metal drummer of all time back then, and around some places he still is. Then he sits down, the rest of the band comes in, and the mighty Hellhammer proceeds to play those simple-beyond-belief mid-tempo 4/4 beats (only Animatronic songs were played) for around 45 minutes...
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:53 am 
 

Crescent_Moon wrote:
Burzum - Varg wasn't kind of virtuoso but his skills were enough to record some brilliant albums.

A really strange one, that. He was clearly talented to an insane degree, and had a lot of creative vision for someone his age. Just looking at Filosofem, you can tell the man had a kind of genius in him. At the same time. many of his techniques and compositions were utterly hackneyed and maddeningly ham-fisted. There is always an undercurrent of amazing subtlety to it, but on the surface it's often downright barbaric. He was probably not very interested in developing his musicality and skills, and perhaps the prison life finally took a fatal toll on his creativity.
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Lord_Jotun
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:33 am 
 

Can't believe I'm the first to mention Bathory when it comes to "bad musicians doing good music". When you manage to seriously impact the rulebook for not one but two subgenres with rudimentary skills at best, you know you're a true genius in your field.

I guess post-melodeath In Flames would qualify for the opposite. Just having someone like Daniel Svensson sit behind the kit only to have him play boring, repetitive 4/4 patterns (when not replacing him altogether with shitty electronic loops) should be a criminal offense.
Post-Volcano Satyricon is another contender - we all know how Friost is tragically underused, but just have a look at all the guest and session musicians they've been using to record and perform their flaccid, copypasted wannabe black 'n' roll tripe.
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HaPoStaPu
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:01 am 
 

Venom? Cryptic Slaughter? Punk/hardcore/oi in general? All attitude and youthful energy.

Lots of jazz and technical death metal created by musicians that can play but create lifeless albums? People who can play their part in performing symphonies but couldn't write a song if their life depended on it?

It's kinda hard to look at it this way as I try to just find the enjoyment in all styles of music and want to avoid snobbery (think of a typical jazz fan..."Omg, the Scorpions, really?").

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traxan
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:48 pm 
 

And that reminds me: Robb Reiner of Anvil. What a fool he was for not taking better gigs (rumors are Judas Priest and Ozzy). Other than "666" and maybe "Metal on Metal" I don't think Lips has ever written a good song. Waste of a brilliant drummer. He was Dave Lombardo before there was Dave Lombardo.

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rexxz
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Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:59 pm 
 

What makes a musician good or bad? Hard to answer the question when we don't even know the operational definitions.

Take this response for example:

Lord_Jotun wrote:
Can't believe I'm the first to mention Bathory when it comes to "bad musicians doing good music". When you manage to seriously impact the rulebook for not one but two subgenres with rudimentary skills at best, you know you're a true genius in your field.


Having a rudimentary skill set is enough to be considered "bad"? Why not say he has a terrible skill set, instead of the qualitatively neutral term "rudimentary" (which has neither negative or positive connotations).

What about the music that these musicians create? Does the quality of their creative output not factor in when considering the quality of their musicianship? If so, doesn't that automatically make them a "good" musician if they make "good" music?

Interesting stuff to think about, for sure.

*for what it's worth, I can't even think of a single example of a band with "bad" musicians that make good music. I suspect most people here are calling anyone who isn't an absolute virtuoso in a technical, mechanical sense to be "bad", which I think is a huge mistake obviously*
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jimbies
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:06 pm 
 

traxan wrote:
But in Metallica you don't have a member who is considered tops in anything. Except maybe Trujillo.


I'll still argue that James is the best player in the band by far.

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ModusOperandi
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Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 12:52 am
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:27 pm 
 

I've given him grief here before, but I'm continuously frustrated how seldom Jeff Waters, whose startingly effortless profiency of the guitar and control of his hands, has made the best use of his talents because of headscratching songwriting and stylistic choices and shifts.

Although I've come around to the "Criteria/Carnival/Waking" trio of albums, the first two will always be 1 and 1a in Annihilator's catalog. "For the Demented" disappointed me as it was just yet another from the "Schizo Deluxe" template.

If he cut the bullshit and focused on his strengths, the talent is still there to create something not just worthwhile, but striking enough to reinvent their identity going forward considering the demand for technicality these days.
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thrashinbatman
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Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:31 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:03 pm 
 

jimbies wrote:
traxan wrote:
But in Metallica you don't have a member who is considered tops in anything. Except maybe Trujillo.


I'll still argue that James is the best player in the band by far.

It's very odd to say no one in Metallica is "good" when James is largely considered to be among the best rhythm guitarists in rock and metal. Dude has one of the most solid right arms in the game.

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